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Old 04-30-2021, 12:09 PM   #1
Prof.Enigma
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Furret Adventure Calibrations!

HELLOOOOOOOOOOOO, Enigma here, and I be bringing out another topic for discussion.

Adventures.
Everything about Adventures.

Lit, Sniz, and I want to go over Adventure rewards ( setting up a baseline )
Reconfiguring a reasonable baseline word min to claim rewards such as bond and money, testing the waters on an adventure pace and reasonable length, discussing new diversity within current zones and new zones, Updating as a whole, and also bringing back up the discussion of a third adventure slot.

We have had discussions in the past on discord and here I believe but we haven't actually made much if any headway into the matter, So let's get it all out here and whip it out.



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Old 04-30-2021, 12:15 PM   #2
Lil'twick
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First and foremost, Zones and Zone Rewards need to be looked at as a whole. One of the main things I’ve noticed as both an updatee and updater is that rewards are incredibly sparse, and strict, overall. This has caused things such as levels, money, and items to take a lot longer to accrue than necessary, causing alternative, faster methods to come at the forefront. Multiple things need to be changed about the entire system, if I’m being honest, and that is laxing things for the updatee and updater.

First of all, I want to implement a change to the word count. It should be made so that updates can earn dollar for word with their replies. Of course, this would cap out at $500 to prevent people making unnecessarily long, fluffy posts solely to get more bang for their buck. Though, there is my worry about there coming to a point where there is too little to work off of as an updater. That is why I would like to propose a minimum word count of 150. I feel that is enough to work off of for the updater to reliably move along the story, while at the same time make it easier for people to be able to push out replies when their in a spot where there isn’t a lot to say and need to hard fluff things.

And this is something I wish to change for updaters as well. Make it so that the word count needed to earn FC is changed from 250 to 200. There have been a lot of times personally where I wrote a satisfying update that landed around 220 to 230 words and I need to add in one to two sentences of fluff. Some may question why I don’t have that at 150 as well, and that is primarily because the updater is the one that directs the story along and provides new plot points for the updatee. More information for the updatee is better, as they don’t have the story plan that the updater has.

Next comes rewards, where there are more frequent and more varied rewards. Levels should be handed out a lot more common than they have. Have they completed a task, puzzle, or so forth? Reward a level. Have they won in a battle, reward 1 to 2 based on how it went. Did they overcome a major hurdle in the plot or win a fight against the major enemy? Three is a perfect amount. As it stands, trainers can get A LOT more Pokemon than they really can put in the effort to raising without resorting to shop simulation practices, and even then. For the run of the mill member, the best sources they have are the weekly candy, the daycare, and the levels from raids. That really is not much in a month at all.

Besides that, other rewards need to be given out a lot more often. Most of the items that are in the games aren’t actually in Fizzy Bubbles at the moment! It’s sort of surprising, isn’t it? Have them be able to harvest berries if their Pokemon manages to find some. Give them additional rewards for finishing tasks or winning battles if it seems to fit. Don’t just create a gift basket to give out at the end of the adventure, we need the rewards to be both more dispersed as well as more frequent. There was a lot of stinginess in the past few years with Zone Rewards, especially with items.

The other main thing I want to point out is captures. Captures do not need to be saved for the end of the adventure. Sometimes they can happen early on, or in the middle of the adventure. Sure the Pokemon might be the big reward, but that doesn’t mean it needs to be saved until the end. Besides that, we need to be giving out Mega Stones, Z-Crystals, and Eggs a lot more in zones. If it is obvious that there is a Pokemon there that fits one of those items, make a plan for the trainer to be able to get it. Sure, it should require more effort than normal, but a person shouldn’t be locked into a 40+ update three-year-long adventure for a singular item. Epics are fine now and then, but people usually don’t have the time nor patience for it. Also Eggs! Eggs are a great thing to give away! If you don’t know what catch to give, then give an egg. There is no excuse to not give an egg unless there is a more fitting specific reward. Eggs are great and it adds in an extra variety element we don’t commonly see.

Though, rewards also need to change on the updater end as well. I’ve been wanting to look at Staff Rewards for a long while now, since being completely honest making my way through the latter things really fall off around the 100-150 FC mark. Each tier is the same, and while that is great it just sorts of comes to the point where you know exactly what you’re going to get besides for like two to three steps? 250+ is great, even if things are a little sparse all things considered. Updaters need to be rewarded well as well, and I’ll be fully focusing on that in another discussion.

Besides rewards, we do need to assess zones as a whole. Sure, there will always be active periods and lulls, but I want to know why people are tending to veer away from zones, from both an updatee and updater perspective. Is it because of the zones we currently have, or that it just feels too tedious to go through them? I know that sometimes there are long waits, and trust me it is frustrating. It is something I want the honest opinion from the community on since we need to make sure that zones come back to the forefront. I have seen people want more roleplaying aspects in the game, so what can we do to encourage that?
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Old 04-30-2021, 12:19 PM   #3
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I don't have a prepared GIANT TEXT WALL nor the time to write one but will give my full thoughts soon.

For now I am bringing over from the bond discussion...

Minimum words for claiming bond should be 100-150, and same for claiming dollars, with dollar amounts equaling the number of words and capping at $500.
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Old 04-30-2021, 01:35 PM   #4
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I mostly agree with what Lit said above. As someone who's only been here for a month I haven't really had enough experience with rewards to say much about the current state of things, but I have a bit to say about where we can go from here.

I did mention this in a different thread, but I'm thinking that rewards could extend beyond items and Pokémon. Obviously those two could stay, but as we're moving more towards a story-focused Fizzy Bubbles, I want to see ZUs really emphasize that. Maybe you could get various key items in zones like TKF did with me shortly before he left, or maybe you could get various extra stat boosts depending on how you and your Pokémon approach a situation.

I also mentioned this in the Discord, but I feel that having a balance between "realistic" and "fantasy" zones should be maintained. If you want to start an adventure in, let's say, a really dense forest, your only option as of now is to start in the Arcane Realm, which may not appeal to some who aren't looking for any high-fantasy based elements in their adventure for one reason or another. What we had before the recent upheaval was fairly balanced; the Unreal Archipelago had a counterpart in the form of the Fizzific Ocean, and the Arcane Realm corresponded to New Fizz City, with the Arboreal Cradle taking a sort of middle ground between the two styles. Obviously this dichotomy can be played with; I was told last night that adventures in the Arcane Realm can fit into both categories as well.

Adding more adventure slots seems like a bad idea right now. We're down several ZAs and ZUs, and I don't want to see them spread thin during this time of change. I think we can revisit this when the dust settles, but for now I think they should remain as is until we can fill in all of the vacant spots that were left by most of the staff stepping down.

Engagement is admittedly a big issue, and it's something that could be improved upon. One of the best ways to engage someone in a story is to keep them curious; for example, you could maybe have something happen in the distance or have a character absentmindedly reference an event that's important to the adventure. Throwing lulls into the story is a good idea when you're the only one writing it, but considering the format of FB it might be a better idea to make sure that something is happening to progress the adventure in every update. Some updaters are better at this than others, but I'm pretty sure that every single one of them has fallen into this before. Throwing in a few items throughout the adventure like Lit said is also a very good idea, and should help keep updatees satisfied when the story has to drag on a bit for whatever reason.

I think that's all that I have to say right now, but I'm more than interested in hearing what everyone else brings to the table.
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Old 04-30-2021, 06:24 PM   #5
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I think 1 dollar per word is fine but it's going to be finickity with people having to keep track of individual dollars. I'm going to suggest that for 100-500 word posts, it's 10 dollars per 10 words just to keep numbers nicer.

Skipping the part on rewards/catches bc I don't really contribute on that side enough to know shit about it.

Assessing zones, this is an issue I've come up with a few times. A lot of the zones have clearly defined subzones these days, and I feel that kind of kills the diversity. Arcane Realm and Arboreal Cradle are two big examples of this: four major zones, each with four fairly specific subzones. Perhaps a bit too specific, bc I can't help but think that the zones would flow better if these sub-areas were updater-side only as lore reference points and places the adventures can go to, rather than these areas being precisely where the updatee is going. It also doesn't overly help with diversity too much, as if the overarching area doesn't appeal, then the subzones likely won't either and that's vast swathes of each zone getting ignored on personal preference.
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Old 04-30-2021, 08:54 PM   #6
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>moving towards dollar-per-word rewards

Yes. Oh my god, yes, please. It's no secret that every adventure I've attempted has wound up fizzling out due to general motivation issues, save I think one Cloud Garden adventure. What only the keener-eyed might notice is that damn near every time, the adventure fizzles somewhere in a battle segment. And I think the current system of 250 for 250 has some part in that, because battle segments are very hard to hit 250 for, at least for me if not for a fair number of folks. You're basically writing ASB orders, just in character. And from experience, you only get so far before you just have to pack the bag with fluff and recap to hit 250. Acknowledgement and recap is good to include in a reply, it lets the updator know that you're understanding things, but there are some situations where you need lots of it to hit 250, more so than I'd like. Especially in wild battle situations where I can't describe much but my Trainer's inner monologue, 150 or so is typically the average before I'm out of things that actually constitute my response to events. And battles tend to last for several updates in a row, so you're having to build fluff for almost half the reply, consistently, for several updates in a row most times. Hell, part of the reason I wanted to have a Rotom Dex with my current/soon to be previous character is because in the early stages, the dearth of Pokemon characters to have your Trainer interact with can make things difficult. Sprocket helped a bit with that, and then ultimately fell by the wayside of my writing in many ways as I grew out of strictly needing him.

So, to make a lengthy spiel short, I think dollar-for-word is a good way to go about things simply so that the pressure isn't as great for situations in which someone just finds that they don't have much to write.

Items: It's not lost on me that while the department store sells things like full restores and revives, at least last I checked it, no one buys them. Ever. And I think that's somewhat representative of a larger problem that pervades updating: generally, whatever objective someone sets out to accomplish or is pointed towards accomplishing or whatever, they are just always able to pull it off given enough posts. In a setting where battles are meant to provide some of an adventure's challenge, battle kind of loses its teeth when you know that your updator isn't going to make you face an opponent that you cannot defeat. One of the few times I've seen an actual man made healing item used in FB is the adventure in which MM caught his Heatmor, where the updator just dropped a few such items midway through the fight with an angry Heatran in order to make it seem like MM had been on the ropes and really sell Heatran as a powerful entity. Which is actually a neat trick, if you ask me, but one that ultimately only seems that way because of, again, the knowledge that adventurers aren't supposed to "lose." And I'm not necessarily saying that people should come across situations that they have genuinely no hope of prevailing in, but the attitudes as they stand almost completely remove any responsibility from an adventurer to be prepared for situations that are meant to be challenging. If you read my original proposal for Outskirt Ridge in full, you likely felt a hint of my feelings on the matter-seeing as how I placed areas meant to be either lighter (Snowbound Slopes, Outlying Range) or explicitly more challenging and dangerous (Forsaken Fortress). I want to do more with that concept should I ever resubmit the Zone, but the idea of a place being objectively more or less challenging means little when, unless I as the zone creator place a railroad's worth of progression gates all over the entire zone, even a freshly-started character with an extremely basic Pokémon would, in theory, have little objective trouble from their updator with a place like, to use my own proposal as an example again, The Immolate Mountain.

As regards rewards-yes, give items throughout the adventure at appropriate times! One of the things that had put me off of updating many a time was the fear of being judged for giving out too much too soon. But if someone came into a zone with a post implying, say, they wanted to train a particular Pokemon, why would it be out of line to have the Pokémon struggle a bit, come upon a hold item which helps them, like a Macho Brace or a type booster, and then use that item to help overcome a more overarching challenge? Generally, as things currently stand, intermediate rewards are pretty much a thing for finishing battles and not much else, and it's typically a few levels and some cash, and little else. Of course, if you're not so sure about items, there's always the option for something beyond items or Pokemon that appeals to the adventurer's character. For example, Mint was a bit of an archaeology and mythology nut, so finding Unown script in one of her adventures was a big deal, as the Unown have a heavy association with legends and all things old. And that was some incredible improv from Biggggg5, who had to abruptly reroute my adventure when a birthday egg hatched the exact Pokemon I was going after in the adventure (my fault for not updating the Memakyu, really). And speaking of the wishlist, it's a good point raised that things like Mega Stones are so rarely given out when everyone and their mother has one or two Mega Stones on there, compared to the Pokemon wishlist which is far more frequently respected. I mean, in a Mega Stone's case, one is heavily linked to the other, so isn't it strange that they're so divorced? It feels especially weird to me because while a Mega Stone can be seen as a pretty major item that could become an unstoppable force...there is nothing stopping you from having opposing forces start carrying Mega Stones as an answer to the adventurer being a powerful Trainer, to keep them engaged. Unstoppable force meets immovable object, one of them's gotta prove it, no?

To make a long story shorter: Items are a means of a Pokémon's growth beyond levels, and adventure rewards ought to respect that idea more. Rewards could stand to be a little more spread out, and the hesitance to reward some powerful items just seems odd when the attitude that adventurers should pretty much always complete their objectives in the end rather makes the exact power level of something a bit moot. Also, having a decent stock of healing items should be a measure of preparedness in the same vein as levels, moves, and items which adventures should test for, and thus give them an actual reason to be in the Department Store. Defeat and major setbacks should happen sometimes to grow the feeling of accomplishment when they are overcome.

As regards Zones themselves, I want to address Iron's point about Sub-Areas, because while I don't agree with it in full, there are some aspects of it that I feel are worth putting an extra voice behind.

While I do t feel that having clearly laid-out Sub-Areas completely kills diversity per se-they're settings within a broader setting, that still need to be painted by the updator in any number of ways, I want to experiment a little more with making Sub Areas whose full reaches aren't fair game for an intro post, where instead there are certain areas one has to explicitly travel to or find in some way through other locations. Forsaken Fotress in Outskirt Ridge was a more extreme version of this desire-you had to find your way around the place, the zone post wasn't going to just hand you an "I want to go there!" card like Magic Treehouse. The three main peaks of the Barrier Range were meant to be reached by climbing their interior caves. Which brings me to where I do feel like Iron has a point.

The "pick a section and go there" sort of system adventuring runs under currently does limit creativity somewhat-of zones themselves. Generally, as we have things now, a ruin shouldn't be a small blip somewhere with a small smattering of structures, it should be a large place of its own in which a full adventure can take place, because most adventures try to remain contained to single sections. Generally, one has to reach a stopping point in their current section before moving on. This was why, when I planned to be able to reach The Soul of the Cradle in AC, I prefaced my first intro by saying it was going to be an absolutely gargantuan undertaking, because that achievement was easily going to take ten or so legs of adventure to even consider, the way that adventures typically flow now. Whether it's updators feeling confined to sections, or zone writers feeling like locations should be able to stand as full sections all the time, or both, the full potential of a zone concept or adventure can't be completely realized. Zone writers have to pick and choose their set pieces wisely, and updators feel unable to create a narrative with much of an itinerary to it beyond what set pieces they can place in a given section.

To make a long story short, the way we write up Zones should be a little different, and include more plain set piece type locations, like a plaza in a city area, that one travels to and from via other set pieces or larger sections, and adventures should feel more free to travel between sections and set pieces along the way. Let Zone writers paint a bit more of their world, and let updators lead people all around it!

If there's anything about this that you might need me to elaborate on or further clarify, please reach out to me-a lot of this is based on personal experience and it may not be true for everyone. I'm liable to stop looking at threads after some time, so if I don't respond here, feel free to prod me on Discord.
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Old 04-30-2021, 11:43 PM   #7
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First thing I want to do before I begin with what will likely be a pretty lengthy post is to thank the mods for hosting this discussion. This is something I attempted to do months ago, having seen a pretty clear imbalance, before it became clear that it wasn't seen as a priority by certain members. Going over adventures and zones I think is really important for restoring balance towards what the game is about: roleplaying in zones, something that I think was fundamentally lost with the introduction of Gyms and Raids. Now, to get onto some actual discussion points.

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The first thing I would like to do would be to discuss the word count issue. It has been brought up in the past that 250 words to some people is too much to consistently reach, often with some rather disparaging remarks that personally as a mod made me hesitant to change it (there's only so far you want to go towards people who accuse others of doing nothing but creating fluff). Personally, I still do not believe 250 words is that lofty of a goal, but there have been times where I've struggled to reach it. Heather brought it up already, but is is particularly difficult to do so during battle updates, as often you don't really have much to do in terms of...writing responses to action. Battle and dialogue tend to be remarkably fluid and often too fast-paced for the type of RPing in Fizzy Bubbles, so I am open to reducing the word count. 150 words I think is reasonable enough, as that should be about two paragraphs of a reply. I think that also reducing it for the ZU is a good idea as well, and I have no qualms about 200 words either. ZUs should I think be putting in extra effort to help guide their updatees along in the story.

But something in addition I would like to suggest is finding some kind of system for conversation updates: a way to actually hold conversations during RP. This usually isn't a problem with RPs with more fluid structures, but this has consistently been a problem in Fizzy Bubbles where conversations are often the updator and the updatee monologing at each other and tying in those monologues with some form of relevancy. For example, a system that I came up with would be to have a conversation over something like UPN PMs or Discord DMs, and then screenshot it and put it into the post, with both the updator and updatee being allowed to claim the words they said for rewards, as well as counting towards the update.

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Next onto the topic of actual rewards: I do think a system that would be good is increasing the amount someone could claim in terms of Pokedollars as they write more. I would not advocate doing it strictly to word count (as that is rather stupid) but rather probably a system of an extra $100 for every 100 words someone writes in an update. I think people who do go the extra mile should be rewarded for their efforts. In addition, I do not believe this should continue to be policed: it is particularly wild to me looking back that we policed this part of rewards and not the Staff Rewards side. Granted, I think that was part grandfathered in from my policy on it, but I do think we can trust the community not to abuse things.

For adventure rewards, I'm very certain Leo is right here: we are particularly stingy, a problem that has become even more pronounced as more people who were active in the older times of FB became ZAs. The culture of stingy rewards from previous leadership persisted, and I believe we really need to untwist our panties on that front. We should be more generous: I firmly believe there should be no items in FB that are exclusive to a system that does not involve RP, and this for example, includes everything currently in currently in the Watt Shop. In addition, we need to be more generous in general: while it may from a strictly in-universe look seem kind of weird, keep in mind that adventures are not quick in FB and never have been. Even a quick adventure often spans over the course of several months and requires significant involvement from both the updator and the updatee. That effort I think should be rewarded, even if it might seem very generous.

For another point, I do think that rewards should generally be spread out: this is often made in association with levels, but I believe it can apply to a wide variety of things: an adventure might have a ranger give you some healing items in preparation for a mission that can be a good time to actually give the player some items, a capture can happen mid-adventure instead of being a guest character that essentially works the same way but isn't a capture due to the culture surrounding it. There are a variety of interesting ways you can give your updatee items mid-adventure, and most importantly, it's a great way to keep your updatee engaged. I would say now it's pretty well proven that putting all of your rewards in the back-end of an adventure is just a bad idea for engagement. Having rewards be more periodic at least gives the extrinsic motivation for continuing.

(Apropos of nothing, there probably should be an informal discussion about how adventuring for an extrinsic motivation is often frowned upon and shamed by the community, and creates an air where you should RP for the sake of RPing. This I think is a bit of an elitist outlook on the game that hasn't really been addressed.)

In addition, rewards are pretty restricted right now: I think that basically any item should be obtainable from an adventure, especially given the mass quantity of items missing from the game. In addition, I also believe that custom items should be obtainable from adventures (more on that in a minute) and that in the future, the option should be open for Fizzy Forms and UPCs to be obtainable as well should the creator want them to be. IN ADDITION, one could also consider items that might be key items in a zone, or more esoteric rewards like the opening up of new areas in zones for instance. Those I think should not be made instead of a more tangible, broader reward, but along with.

I do not believe we can have a discussion about rewards for the updatee without also discussing the Memakyu. It has been a point of consternation for some people in the past that they don't want people to assume they can just ask for certain rewards and expect to get them. However, I still believe that this is inherently a problem with adventuring: systems like breeding and the Watt Shop offer guaranteed ways to get the items and Pokemon one may want. I still think there should be ways for updatees to respectfully make their wants known, and have Memakyu be important in that. I do not believe this would have the effect of "shopifying" zones, and even if it did, I believe that problem to be inherently preposterous: there are already shops in Fizzy Bubbles before there are zones that are pretending to be shops, and it is I think no great secret that I believe that raids have already MASSIVELY progressed in this direction. But I do think that at the beginning of an adventure, an updatee should have the ability to discuss with their updator their general expactations, with the updator having the obvious and very firmly stated ultimate decision power.

On a final point, I do believe that one of the most important parts of the Memakyu is establishing boundaries on canon/non-canon content. Allowing non-canon content to be discovered in zones has also always another point of consternation, but I do believe that it very simply is just a consent thing: if both the updatee and the updator want to include non-canon content in an adventure, whether it's custom items or Fizzy forms / UPCs, I do think that should be allowable. I do not believe restricting this in any way has any meaningful impact on the game as a whole, and restrictions in this regard were pretty much due to ideological positions rather than any positions about game balance.

To kind of summarized a very lengthy discussion point:
-Rewards should be more generous across the board
-Rewards should cover the absolute broadest amount of available stuff: nothing should ever be exclusive to a shop or a raid
-Rewards should be more broadly scattered rather than being concentrated in the ending of an adventure
-Updatees should have the ability to respectfully discuss with their updator about adventure rewards at the start of an adventure
-Non-canon rewards should be allowed with updatee and updator permission

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Now, let's talk about updator rewards. I was the one who created the ladder system for Fizzy Bubbles, and it was very much based on ladder systems in video games and mobile games. However, while I still think it is absolutely the best way to give out rewards, what I will admit is that it was a system largely introduced without consistent balancing and an idealistic outlook on the game. It is I think now, after listening to other people, a system that will require a complete re-haul: meaning that we need to rethink both the rewards it gives out and the length of time and effort needed to get them. I think in retrospect making the grand reward at 300 updates was entirely too idelistic: this is something that in the last four years or so of Fizzy Bubbles, only three people have ever reached, and while some are close, it was simply way too much to ask.

My suggestion here would be shortening the size of the tiers, allowing for more compact reward give outs as well as easier access to large grand prize rewards like the custom move. I think a good place for a discussion point on this would be to have tiers be only 200 or 150 FC instead of 300, and potentially maybe even 100. The problem with this becomes of what to do with the current state of the ladder, of which there are three options: you either keep everyone where they are and give out retroactive rewards, you keep everyone where they are and don't give out retroactive rewards, or you reset everyone back down to 0 FC.I am personally in favor of a reset to 0 and am generally opposed to retroactive rewards, but this should absolutely be open to community discussion in this regard.

In addition to this, rewards for the ladder both need to be more generous as well as more diverse: a lot of the rungs of the ladder are absolutely filler and should be replaced by more meaningful rewards. I believe this should also be true for bimonthly updator rewards as well, something which I think has been kind of a crutch for the system as a whole: rewards should fairly consistently change and be diverse for that as well.

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Now onto some really nitty gritty discussion topics: adventures, zones, and what the hell that actually all means. So let's start off with adventure length. This is something I mentioned before, but there were during the beginnings of the new era of FB discussions about codifying lengths of adventures and rewards scaling to them. I think that discussion should be continued on that front for sure. If we assume that the average adventure is about 15 updates, then maybe a long adventure might be 20 or 25, and a short adventure might be 10. Maybe you want an epic length adventure or something, but I do think discussion on this front is valuable. The most important thing I think to discuss here as well is the balance between freedom and railroading: I've had updatees in the past who definitely have not wanted to do the thing I wanted them to do, and that can be very frustrating especially if you're trying to do a shorter adventure.

In addition, there is a discussion to be had about adventure pace as well. Something that I suggested a while back was for there to be some kind of compensation reward for updatees who had updators who were inconsistent, in part fueled by my own experiences of having an updator once who didn't update me for an entire year. I do think that is something worth looking into, but it might also be a good idea to provide a carrot in the other direction: giving more rewards for updators who are able to consistently update in a quick fashion. This is something I think should definitely be open to discussion. You can't just expect updators to miraculously be better at this, so you have to find ways to work around with it.

Now onto zones. To start with, I'm not particularly a fan of having some kind of weird arcane / mundane balance between zones: I think that kind of stifles creativity and makes it so people who might have really good zone ideas are forced to reconsider. But I think something that probably should be discussed is the actual structure of zones themselves: all four of the current zones in Fizzy Bubbles are massive both in size and in scope. Zones like the Arboreal Cradle can have multiple sub-zones with completely different theming and I think something that could be considered in the future is zones being smaller: this would also allow for more zones to appear without concerns about one crowding out or competing with others.

Something that has been brought up that I definitely do agree with is sub-areas in general. Often there are...a lot and the current way of adventuring doesn't really allow for exploration or surprises. In essence, you can basically see what every zone looks like immediately, and know that you aren't going to find anything new. The concept of exploring a zone and finding new areas was something I wanted to play around with when I made the Pixielands, and I think should be more seriously considered.

Maybe to put it in simpler terms...zones feel VERY big, very complex, and also simultaneously VERY shallow. It is very rare for someone to have an adventure that might materially change a zone in some way: every time you look at a zone OP you basically know what everything in a zone is going to be about, which I think has the unfortunate effect of actually stifling what an adventure looks for the updator and the updatee. There's a kind of ideological issue with zones that I can't quite hammer out in words, hopefully someone kind of gets what I'm going for here. I think Zones should feel more like places rather than hub worlds, and I think more dynamic interaction with the actual zones themselves and with their history and lore goes a long way to doing that.
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Old 05-01-2021, 11:34 AM   #8
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To start off, I wanna say I like the majority of the mechanical changes proposed with reduced word counts and cash per word (though for math’s sake I like the idea of claiming it in multiples of 10)

My own additional thought on zones: I’d like to adventure in Pokémon canon, or at least canon adjacent/reminiscent. While I do like the unique zones of Fizzy Bubbles itself and would like to continue to adventure there too, I’d also like the option to explore something more already recognizable and tbh be rewarded for it too, though I guess that part isn’t a deal breaker. If that’s in a FFA zone that we don’t want to define as a dedicated zone that’s fine but I would like to take my character on an adventure back to his hometown Goldenrod, visit the Pokémon tower in Lavender, take on an Orre Colosseum or battle a famous trainer like Ash or Red or Cynthia or Whitney. Maybe that last one isn’t as exclusive to the set pieces, but Fizzy Bubbles always has felt jarringly separate from the rest of the Pokémon world that when I was updating in Dialga’s gate and my updatee talked to Cynthia in their opening post it was so surprising I wasn’t sure if it was allowed at first.
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Old 05-01-2021, 12:04 PM   #9
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Now, me, personally, I've never had an issue with the minimum word count for claiming Bond and Pokédollars, but I also know I'm far from in the majority on that XD. I have no issue with the minimum word count being lowered, as well as allowing for a higher maximum amount of Pokédollars claimable. My real issue here is something that several others have beaten me to bringing up- the math. I have been known to screw up my Pokébank balance as it is with a consistent 250 per post coming in. Can you imagine if I have, like, 169 for one post and 420 for another, and on and on? I'm all for making it less exact than that- maybe in multiples of 100? 100 for every 100 words, capping at 500 for 500 words? I feel like that's a decent balance?

Also, agreed completely on rewards. I feel like we have gotten at least a bit better on that front in recent years, but not enough, for sure. I like the idea of Eggs, and I like the idea of being able to, like, communicate with your updater at the very start of things, politely convey what it is you're hoping to earn with this adventure. And agreed completely on the point that there should never be something that can be gotten in a shop or from a raid, but not from a zone adventure.

I got stuff to do around the house, so I'm leaving it at this for now. If I have more to say, I'll say it later.
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Old 05-01-2021, 12:51 PM   #10
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Full Disclosure: A lot of what I'm about to say is informed by the fact that I am more seriously considering returning to FB in the coming weeks. Because of this, I do have an interest in this discussion because changes may create a more comfortable environment for myself. That said, I will remain aware of and respectful of other people's opinions and comfort zones throughout this discussion.

Word Count Changes
Quote:
Updatee: 250 -> 150 Words
Updator: 250 -> 200 Words
Bonus: $100 per surplus 100 Words
So off the bat. I'm 100% in-support of this, and will broadly agree to the rationale behind it so as to not repeat what other people are saying too much.

Now, I understand the last time this discussion happened, things got heated and there were some nasty accusations of mistrust in the userbase thrown around. I know I contributed to a lot of that, and I'm sorry that I let myself get that way.

I think dollar per word count sounds intuitive, but I don't think it really works with the economy of FB. We've got nothing to spend that 1's place on, and I don't think Updators and Shop Owners are about to find ways for users to spend such a comparatively miniscule amount.

If anything, I'd be more in-support of slashing the zero like Canada slashed the penny. $750 becomes $75, ect. However, I think that would be more hassle than it's worth, not when I feel like the branding of "$250 for 250" is easy-to-remember and appealing, personally. Of course, if this all goes through, it might become "$250 for 150", unless we want to reduce the reward proportionally and use the bonus rules to give out the same reward for reaching 250 as previous.


Dialogue Mode
Now this is really interesting, and something I never considered before. Rather, I always knew there was something off about how we were expected to run dialogue if we wanted the RP rewards, but I never really figured there was much you could do about it other than changing the word count.

To give some perspective, this isn't an FB or even Forum RP-exclusive problem. I don't want to bring in too much tabletop bias as FB is not a TTRPG, but this monologue/response paradigm is an issue that crops up in almost all text-based RP environments.

As a player or a DM, I often fall into the trap of writing out multiple paragraphs and monologuing as a PC or NPC because I am simply unsure of whether I will be able to get out everything my character wants to say otherwise. What if I get halfway through my big character moment and the others shoot back a response that completely derails what I have to say? But of course, the biggest thing you can do to avoid dropping a wall of text that the other person has to recap and respond to in their own monologue is to just reach out and ask "hey, so my character is kinda feeling this way and wants to do X. Can we work together to make this the big moment for them?"

So, with that said. I am in-support of having a way to do more fluid back-and-forth updates. Not just for dialogue, but for other types of scene that don't do so well with the normal expectations of an FB post. That is, so long as they are delineated from regular play so that Word Count can be tracked between posts in this "dialogue mode".

Now, the issue comes with how the delineation will occur. I'm not opposed to screenshotting PM's, but I feel like there is some formatting option we could use to keep everything inside the thread. Reduces the amount of steps necessary to do these rapid-fire responses from having to open up PM's and then go through the trouble of screenshotting, uploading and linking them to just clicking a button or two on the text editor. Problem is, walls of italics murder my eyes, and the other most obvious route of using text color is already taken as a feature of the zones...

I'll have to leave that to people who are more familiar with how to format good on forums to figure out, if there's a solution to figure out.


Adventure Rewards
Y'all are hitting it out of the park here, because I firmly agree on what's been said on this front.

I fully understand the intent on keeping adventure rewards for the end of the adventure. No getting what you want and then willfully bailing. However, I think the reality I've been seeing is that most people bail when they can't keep up with the expectations of updating or replying to updates, and the lack of a reward outside of word count (which as has been discussed might be contributing to burnout in certain circumstances) just means that the only people who get rewarded are people who have the patience to move that glacier.

That's certainly commendable, but going that far and putting in that much effort should be rewarded with extra goodies, rather than being the default for getting any goodies at all. I don't think that's a fair system, when if you're someone who has difficulties pushing through to the end due to internal or external factors, you don't get much for your time or effort regardless of what you've done so-far.

Being generous and giving out rewards when appropriate, regardless of adventure progress, solves this problem neatly, I think. For those who are determined to finish adventures, they don't loose out on anything. For those who need that extra push to finish, they get it.

Updators get more freedom in plotting their adventures, too. Or in the case of Captures, at least they get to do things as they have been doing it, but without having to skirt around the rules as much :P


Zone Changes
This one I'm not as confident about, just because I know its probably the biggest change being discussed here. If not for the Zones that exist, but Zones that may exist in the future.

I definitely do get the vibe that some zones are a bit too large and "set in stone". Our rules about text color in many Zones mean that you can't push the aesthetic of a subzone to create a unique location too much, meaning that what you see in the Zone's post is often what you get.

When I was updating Cloud Garden for that short period of time, I always felt like I was limited to running adventures that took place in the generic wilderness beneath the iconic mountain. So many cool places that nobody set foot in, all because they required a lot of time spent exclusively in CG to reach them. Maybe some of the really, really old guard, but someone new like myself would've been years out from seeing anything of CG's more unique areas.

And that's not to say that all areas should be open to everybody on first visit. I actually really liked the tiered structure of CG. How in order to reach the higher areas you had to trek through the areas leading up to it. The problem was largely that there was nothing inherently interesting going-on in those lower tiers to entice people to adventure a lot in CG and get the qualifications to climb higher.

I support the idea of making the Zones smaller and more focused. A lot of Zones with finely-honed aesthetics will likely be more attractive than a handful of Zones trying to OSFA the concept of a forest or a desert. With that said, I don't think creating hidden areas would be a good idea. To me, an ideal adventure should come with an open and honest communication of expectations between Updator and Updatee. I think hiding content behind one side of the screen imbalances the conversation, and you can end up with the Updator aiming to tell their own story that the Updatee may or may not not want to participate in.

Rather, I think the better solution is to just give Updators and Updatees the freedom to make unique locales within a Zone or an area within a Zone. Similar to how Emi had proposed that the two can agree to include non-canon content. They don't have to become permanent additions to the Zone. They could be here one adventure and then gone the next. Think all of those interesting cities and landmarks in the Anime that fill out the space between the "official" locations of a Region.

Anyways. I thought I wouldn't have much to say, but here I am with... uhhh. A lot. I hope all of it was easy enough to parse. Now that all my formal thoughts are out there, I likely won't be writing quite as much next time.
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Old 05-01-2021, 01:40 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Emi View Post
But something in addition I would like to suggest is finding some kind of system for conversation updates: a way to actually hold conversations during RP. This usually isn't a problem with RPs with more fluid structures, but this has consistently been a problem in Fizzy Bubbles where conversations are often the updator and the updatee monologing at each other and tying in those monologues with some form of relevancy. For example, a system that I came up with would be to have a conversation over something like UPN PMs or Discord DMs, and then screenshot it and put it into the post, with both the updator and updatee being allowed to claim the words they said for rewards, as well as counting towards the update.
This is something that I can actually comment on as someone who's been a part of many attempted Fire Emblem RPs that explicitly included Support Conversations as a mechanic, and this was pretty much explicitly how it was done. The interaction played out rather line-by-line over Discord, and the text of the interaction would be copied to the RP thread when it was completed. While it does require updators and updates to find a time they're both free to hash it out, the resulting interactions feel much more normal. What would need cleared up for FB is how exactly the result gets copied over. I think it would be easiest for the actual text to be posted as part of the relevant update, while both updator and updatee are rewarded based on their relative contributions to the piece. But that brings up a potential flow problem when an update rather explicitly leaves a conversation as the very next thing for an adventurer to do when the updator might not have necessarily intended it-is the adventurer meant to post anything in the meantime? If so, what? FE RPs never really had this problem since Supports and other plot dialogue just happened between chapters and there wasn't an updator/updatee flow to worry over, so before I recommend a full implementation, I feel like we should black-box it and hammer out the edge cases in here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emi View Post
In addition, rewards are pretty restricted right now: I think that basically any item should be obtainable from an adventure, especially given the mass quantity of items missing from the game. In addition, I also believe that custom items should be obtainable from adventures (more on that in a minute) and that in the future, the option should be open for Fizzy Forms and UPCs to be obtainable as well should the creator want them to be. IN ADDITION, one could also consider items that might be key items in a zone, or more esoteric rewards like the opening up of new areas in zones for instance. Those I think should not be made instead of a more tangible, broader reward, but along with.

On a final point, I do believe that one of the most important parts of the Memakyu is establishing boundaries on canon/non-canon content. Allowing non-canon content to be discovered in zones has also always another point of consternation, but I do believe that it very simply is just a consent thing: if both the updatee and the updator want to include non-canon content in an adventure, whether it's custom items or Fizzy forms / UPCs, I do think that should be allowable. I do not believe restricting this in any way has any meaningful impact on the game as a whole, and restrictions in this regard were pretty much due to ideological positions rather than any positions about game balance.
All of this. It's no secret that I wanted Cyber Balls a lot because I love their design, but there simply was no way for me to even hope to see one outside of an event reward, period, on basically the sole premise that it was a custom item. And I feel that this is especially weird since adventures tend to spell out when a Pokémon is capture or and in all other instances of receiving one, it's just pick a ball and go. So outside of how the Luxury Ball and Friend Ball increased Bond, what Poke Ball you're exactly using usually ends up being a cosmetic choice, so it ends up feeling even weirder that Custom Balls in particular have been so restricted when it's just a way for you to establish your Trainer's aesthetic.

As regards UPCs/Fizz Forms, that too. For all that UPC was themed around discovering a new Pokemon RP-wise, the rules surrounding them pretty much explicitly forbade them from becoming an actual part of the world for anyone but the winner, which is just strange. If someone discovers a new Pokemon officially, as happened in many of the RP segments I read of previous winners, shouldn't that be a big deal in-universe? It feels like Gameplay And Story Segregation in a medium where the story IS the gameplay, which just feels wrong to me. also #freeguillobyss2k21


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emi View Post
The most important thing I think to discuss here as well is the balance between freedom and railroading: I've had updatees in the past who definitely have not wanted to do the thing I wanted them to do, and that can be very frustrating especially if you're trying to do a shorter adventure.
Shorter bit here, but I would be extremely cautious of railroading the events of an adventure. I wound up stopping my first foray into Wild Future because my updator was trying to railroad my character into helping Team Rocket very hard. I wanted to do literally anything but help one of the explicit antagonists of the setting, but having just started out I had very little but words to work with, especially since my reaction to my first update was to warn Team Rocket's target, at which point my next update saw my character get ambushed and captured without any chance to fight, and a bomb collar strapped to my only Pokemon in the process. So, predictably, my attempts felt subpar to both myself and the updator, and it was a bad time all around. I know that's a very extreme example, but I still feel that it would be remiss to point out that the role of an updator is to help write the adventurer's story, and that autonomy is something that should be messed with very sparingly if at all. To make a toy example out of it, it's one thing to lay some rails that nebulously lead to some treasure chest in the distance-you can make the character's goal mesh with your envisioned endgame if you're clever, and just have the rest of your storyboard follow the adventurer. It's another thing to want to very specifically want them to cross the rickety rope bridge to get there, and it shouldn't come as a surprise if an acrophobic character tries desperately to not cross it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emi View Post
Now onto zones. To start with, I'm not particularly a fan of having some kind of weird arcane / mundane balance between zones: I think that kind of stifles creativity and makes it so people who might have really good zone ideas are forced to reconsider. But I think something that probably should be discussed is the actual structure of zones themselves: all four of the current zones in Fizzy Bubbles are massive both in size and in scope. Zones like the Arboreal Cradle can have multiple sub-zones with completely different theming and I think something that could be considered in the future is zones being smaller: this would also allow for more zones to appear without concerns about one crowding out or competing with others.
]I'll be honest with you, the amount of environments in Outskirt's original incarnation and the rewrite as it currently stands is due to the fact that, after Arboreal Cradle was established as a zone, I felt like if I wanted a zone to be a serious contender for a potential ZA to want to take, I had to try to aim high in scope like it did, and be a diverse ecosystem. I can't say for certain if that likewise drove other zone writers to do the same, but I feel like AC's establishment sort of set that precedent. And I'll admit I'm guilty of supporting that mindset: since we have limited numbers of official zones at any given time, getting more bang for your buck was rather ideal-especially if you were like me and didn't like urban-area Zones and thus felt even more cramped with NFC's first incarnation being in the mix. Now, I want to back up a second to something I just said: "for a potential ZA to want to take." Currently, the way we do new zones, you usually end up voting not just for a ZA, but for the zone they've written as well, since only the ZA of up for actual community vote. I understand electing a ZA and letting them choose the zone they preside in so that they don't wind up stuck with a zone they do not like, but I feel like that system makes the ZA election ticket look how I just said-both the ZA and (usually) the zone they themselves made. I feel like the kinds of Zones we end up seeing submitted get a bit limited by the fact that without first running yourself as a ZA, your zone has a much smaller, practically zero chance of being selected to be implemented unless a ZA candidate doesn't have a proposal of their own. And I mentioned this to a few people in the wake of recent events, but should I ever officially resubmit Outskirt Ridge, or really ever submit another zone proposal period, I want it to be well defined enough that my vision of it remains rock-solid even when I am not the ZA, and I think some of the issues people have with zones can be worked on if we work towards a system where that standard is expected for zone submissions, and being a ZA doesn't guarantee you the right to have your zone be the one implemented.

Quote:
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Maybe to put it in simpler terms...zones feel VERY big, very complex, and also simultaneously VERY shallow. It is very rare for someone to have an adventure that might materially change a zone in some way: every time you look at a zone OP you basically know what everything in a zone is going to be about, which I think has the unfortunate effect of actually stifling what an adventure looks for the updator and the updatee. There's a kind of ideological issue with zones that I can't quite hammer out in words, hopefully someone kind of gets what I'm going for here. I think Zones should feel more like places rather than hub worlds, and I think more dynamic interaction with the actual zones themselves and with their history and lore goes a long way to doing that.
I feel this, hard. While I didn't wind up participating in CG's epic winter saga event, I feel like things of that nature that permanently alter the face of a Zone should not only be possible, but possible for a person to instantiate with their particular actions. If one recklessly uses Fire Blast in a dense forest area, they should be prepared for a forest fire to start. If they use a move like Earthquake in a cave area, they should be prepared for the structural stability of the area to be compromised, and those changes shouldn't exist in a vacuum. If a forest fire starts, other adventurers in the area should probably have to react to it. If there's a cave-in somewhere near another adventurer, they should have the choice of trying to dig out whoever might be trapped, or fleeing the scene to avoid any more hazardous conditions. If a Magikarp evolves in the middle of a small, shallow body of water, the sudden addition of an enormous Gyarados should carry the possibility of that body of water being completely emptied from being displaced by such a massive Pokemon suddenly manifesting in it. Hell, the one stab I took at updating back with Bedlam Ridge, since my adventurer was looking to join the Ribs, I had the actual authority figure for the Ribs mention the giant Ariados problem they were facing in a completely different adventure. Zones should feel more like places and less like video game levels-things that happen there should be able to have lasting consequences.
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Old 05-01-2021, 07:28 PM   #12
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Personal feelings/comments

Custom Pokemon and Items Re: I can understand the first person to get the first FF/UPC but I 100% believe that from there on they should be implemented as a pokemon that can be obtained either from a Fizzy Form / UPC Egg, or by them naturally appearing in a zone that fits their proposed Ideal environment ~ I'll have more on this in a bit.

As for Items, I feel just as strongly that they shouldn't be exclusive to an event or whatnot, and I like ( as a updator ) going and asking if the updatee wouldn't mind having non-cannon items and non-cannon content because I personally have so many things I would love to throw at my updatees either as a memento or an item they can use outside a zone or whatever. These kinds of things shouldn't be as limited even off the bat.


Zone's changing due to someone's actions:

GODS YES PLEASE, If we had this a while back TKF would have been a person who helped create a new crater in Dead Man's Rest, and a new Heart Stone made by a Diancie.

I feel it's WAY more fun to write this way, Example A. My current DND Party took out the old mayor and the person who would have been next in command unknowingly so when they finally come back out of the dungeon under the city they will have to deal with the consequences of their actions and either turn it into something good or make things harder for themselves.

Like how much fun would it be to not only introduce a newcomer to an area that was devastated in an all-out battle between two Zygardes and having the local Rangers ask them to help them out so they can plant and regrow new trees that were lost in the fight etc etc
And can you imagine how much more fun it would make Trainer interactions in zones? even outside of them?? IT would be in my mind way much more fun and allow for a lot more creativity and more potential story points for not only just me as a updator but a lot more possibilities for a updatee.


Zone Rewards / Word Count Claiming for Rewards:

Personally ( not as a moderator here on this part ) Personally I agree already with what's been proposed as in lowering the RP word count to claim rewards on both sides. I understand fully that not everyone can get that crisp 250 without taking fluff ( I mean literally look at all my raid posts where I go and touch upon the backstories of my characters n stuff )

I also understand that not everyone can be creative with writing out how their battles take place, sometimes they are so fast-paced, other times they drag on and on. I was guilty of dragging on battles with TKF but I personally threw a lot of story content in with each "turn" of the battle.


I don't have a comment on anything else stated in this thread as other people have voiced their opinions that match up with mine and I feel no need to rearrange what is essentially the same thing in my head.
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Old 05-01-2021, 10:44 PM   #13
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In terms of trainer interactions in zones or allowing writers to respond to something happening in another adventure I'd really prefer this to be a case by case basis. We've already had multiple reminders of what happens when we have adventures with multiple players in them and it usually doesn't end well. It could end up stalling other people and while keeping to time continuity usually dies quickly with adventures going at different paces (at least in general history) when it's actively affecting multiple players in a zone it could become chaos to keep track. I love making references to other trainers here and there like in events and raids and I'd love Alice to make proper friends one day, but I think if someone doesn't want their adventures overlapping with others they should be able to abstain from all that.
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Old 05-02-2021, 06:14 AM   #14
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I think inter-adventure stuff gets messy if it's too interlinked, but finding the blast craters or forcibly-opened doors should be fine. Maybe limit it to bits from finished adventures, or adventures that have moved past?
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Old 05-03-2021, 01:27 PM   #15
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So, time to give my thoughts based on how the thread has progressed. So, first of all, I am seeing a general agreement on the proposed word count changes. I think the main thing that people are worried about is monetary gains. Some people are fine with it being equivalent to the word count, while others want it to be a base with x amount added based on a certain amount of additional words typed, capping at $500.

My main issue with that is that it sort of creates the same scenario as previously where people write a satisfying post within a certain amount of words and then end up pushing themselves to add in an additional 20-30 words to hit the next monetary tier. I understand that word for word is explicitly more work in keeping track of things monetarily, but I think it is overall a better system. I would like to propose we implement the minimum word count as 150 for replies and 200 for updates, with the amount of Pokedollars claimed to be equivalent to the number of words typed up to $500. If this system proves to be counterintuitive for the community, we can address changing it to a $150 base with an additional x for x amount of words. I would like to try and implement this part ASAP, so I can post a thread discussing Staff Rewards. Everything else in this thread will still be in the discussion, I just want to get the word count specifically pushed through. I know a lot of people are waiting for this to go through.

Alright, with that addressed, time for me to go into my thoughts on everything else that has been stated. First and foremost is about dialogue in adventures. I'll be honest, I have done this before in a role play on Serebii, and it was extremely fun. Fizzy has also felt a bit stagnant when it has come to dialogue, especially in longer posts and especially in free roleplay areas. IIRC, Enigma and Blue are testing this out in NFC at the moment, and I see no reason why this can't be implemented into adventures. Of course, my only worry is the adventure being entirely done in private and then just c/p'd into the thread, but it is something I rather risk here on this since I believe the system can work well.

So, now it is time to get into the meat. And that, of course, is Zones themselves. I've had some time to think about things based on both the discussion here and the discussions that have happened on Discord, and here are the conclusions I've come to. I want to preface the next few paragraphs that this objectively looks at the zones themselves and is not meant to be an attack at any of the ZAs or people who have created them.

First and foremost, I think a good amount of the community right now sees at least one of the zones currently in place unapproachable for one reason or another. I do understand that feeling, and being honest I sort of getting it. Fizzific Ocean, for example, felt way too huge as a zone for me to comfortable try to wrap my head around it as a singular zone. It easily could've been divided up into multiple zones, and I didn't really see much lore tying it together besides "It's the oceans surrounding the continent." And that, to me, was a massive issue. I do also want to say that Fizzific Ocean isn't the only offender we've had here in the past.

I think the main issue a lot of people have been expressing is these "Megaplex" zones, so to speak. Zones that both feel too interconnected but also extremely disjointed as well. That one or more areas feel like they could've been their own individual zone instead of one massive one. That while there is some sort of unification there, it just feels like it was tied together for the sake of it. I do love Unreal Archipelago and Arboreal Cradle, but I can see where members of the community think that with both. I feel how the zone is tied together should be upfront and honest, instead of being tied or locked behind massive personal progression into the zone that may take years or even a decade to actually uncover.

Now, I'm not saying I am not guilty of this either. The current iteration of the Arcane Realm is a behemoth, and it is incredibly daunting with the amount of lore it has. Of course, a lot of areas themselves are self-isolated, and that itself is also another issue. The Arcane Realm has the only desert in Fizzy right now, and one of the very few lakes. Once the Arboreal Cradle finishes, it will also have the only forest in Fizzy. That is a problem, especially if people aren't looking for something for tame than fantastic. I will state this, where you can have perfectly normal and mundane adventures in those areas, as long as you explicitly state it to your updater. But, that does bring up the issue where it feels the zone may have diversity for the sake of it. Unfortunately, I want to say, that isn't entirely the case. Take the original Arcane Realm, and well, it is basically a mish-mash of different biomes.

But, it does bring up the point that it makes the zone feel incredibly self-contained, especially the sub-areas. Keeping with my zone, the Fool's Path connects everything in the Arcane Realm, but for some areas, it is hard to go from one area to another. Let's say you want to go from the Desert of the Stars to somewhere in the Kingdom of Swords. That task seems kind of impossible now does it? Zones need to find ways to be more open in traveling between sub-areas, to truly bring the world alive and together. In recent times, the only other zone I feel could accomplish this easily is Emp's New Fizz City, with its public transport system. Most of the time, you'd need to finish and adventure where you are at and then start an adventure in another area to truly move around the zone.

So, what I am suggesting is we codify zones, and moving forwards with the new zones to replace Arboreol Cradle and Fizzific Ocean is this:

1) A Zone shouldn't be too large. Zone's are meant to encapsulate unique biomes within Fizzytopia and should follow a similar theme throughout. Take Whale Island as a huge example of what I mean.

2) Zones should feel very easy to travel across, and shouldn't feel too lore-heavy upfront. This allows for trainers to explore the zone and experience the lore themselves, instead of having to read a detailed guide before even starting. This also will allow people to feel like they have more realistic progression within the zone.

3) A Zone should try and fulfill a specific niche. If I'd try and describe the three zones staying, I'd describe them as "Fantasy World", "Bustling City", and "Eldritch Islands." Each zone should try and fulfill an environment or theme that other zones currently do not.

If the current ZAs wish to work on their zones or edit them, then it is their own decision. They should not be forced into changing their zones, as they were properly elected into place.

Besides that, I want to say I agree that adventures should be able to leave a lasting impact on zones, even to the point where it might warp the geography or even lore of the zone. Depending on the "size" of what changes, it could easily just be small changes to the OP to reflect that or force all adventures to go on hold to have an event that deals with the consequences of an action (IIRC the War of the Roses was this?). Of course, the ZAs should be made aware of what is going on before it happens and should have the ability to veto something (For example no blowing up The Tower for my zone, but assassinating the king is perfectly fine!)

Fizzy Bubbles is meant to be a roleplay with our own world space independent from the rest of the Pokemon World. I know some people like sticking to canonical things, despite Game Freak not, and I can respect that. People should be able to opt out of things that make Fizzy Bubbles unique but also need to respect others who want to partake in it. And hey, if you don't want to always experience the world FB with your FB cast, the Visionary Glade exists! Fizzytopia is still very much part of the Pokemon World, and that is the perfect place to really have your character experience the rest of the Pokemon World.
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Old 05-03-2021, 01:41 PM   #16
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I'm...not gonna comment on zone changes because I don't really feel like I have an opinion on/stake in the creation of zones, but I'm down for moving minimum word count to 150 for replies and 200 for updates. For pokedollar rewards, I'd still support +100 for every 100 words over minimum instead of word count equals dollar amount, to be honest. Mostly for ease of calculation.
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Old 05-03-2021, 01:59 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by myahoo View Post
I'm...not gonna comment on zone changes because I don't really feel like I have an opinion on/stake in the creation of zones, but I'm down for moving minimum word count to 150 for replies and 200 for updates. For pokedollar rewards, I'd still support +100 for every 100 words over minimum instead of word count equals dollar amount, to be honest. Mostly for ease of calculation.
I agree with myahoo here. I'm not really qualified to comment on zone changes I think.

However, I disagree with how you want to go with the rewards here. +100 would barely fix anything - it's not gonna help with motivation that much more than the current system does. I say +10 for every extra ten words, with the 500 buck cap
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Old 05-03-2021, 02:07 PM   #18
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I'm down to at least try the dollar per word system, so I can agree with Lit here on all fronts.
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Old 05-03-2021, 02:50 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by CrazyCreeperKid View Post
However, I disagree with how you want to go with the rewards here. +100 would barely fix anything - it's not gonna help with motivation that much more than the current system does. I say +10 for every extra ten words, with the 500 buck cap
I agree. Respectfully, I think having a larger requirement for money isn't going to reduce the tendency of people adding a lot of bloat/fluff to get to that, say, 100 extra words, for example, all that much. And adding 100+ words of pointless fluff just to hit a specific wordcount is pretty draining, at least in my opinion. I think we will always have an issue with people adding fluff--I myself am very guilty of this--but a smaller wordcount requirement may help better reduce that tendency. Per word would probably be the best in my opinion because, past the minimum requirement, every word is going to bring in money, but I can understand why that may be difficult in practice. 10-20 words I think should be the maximum we should consider, something that could be done in an extra sentence or less.

However, this is all just my personal opinion.

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Old 05-03-2021, 03:36 PM   #20
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On RPing conversations through DMs: As Lit mentioned earlier, Enigma and I tried this out in NFC between our characters. I do think that it could help speed up adventures, but there were a few things that stuck out to me.

The first was the format; I noticed that Enigma and I took vastly different approaches to writing our posts when we were done. Enigma simply decided to copy and paste most of our conversation, leaving asterisks in where I came in, while I elected to only give them what my character visibly did during the conversation and then went back and filled in everything in between that. What concerns me about this is that if we don't have a standard rule for formatting these posts, then both parties could end up taking this in two entirely different directions, making the overall narrative seem really clumsily written.

Second off is the effort. Both Enigma and I noticed that these conversations make word counts balloon fast. While I haven't checked the word count on my end of the exchange (sorry, I'm lazy), I could tell that my post was significantly longer than most of what I've posted over the past month. Compiling these conversations into a format that fits the written-novel style of Fizzy Bubbles might take a significant amount of time to do, especially when the conversation drags on for a while.

Both of these considered, however, I think that this is a welcome change, but I think it should only be used sparingly during parts of adventures that require a lot of dialogue or exposition. If this happens too frequently, then the updater and/or the updatee might get burnt out from all of the writing that they have to do in a short amount of time.

On zone scope: While I might have personally dropped the realistic/fantastic dichotomy as it didn't make sense in a world where animals fight with elemental powers, I still think that zones should try to cover environments that others don't encompass. I personally feel that redundancy between two (and only two) zones should be encouraged, however; it provides a much-needed backup in case a zone has to close for one reason or another.

I like the concept of approaching lore from a different direction. Presently, with the amount of time that adventures take, trying to make players discover lore in every part of a zone is a nigh impossible task, even if it sounds cool. It's inevitable that either the zone will close at some point, usually before anyone can make any true progress, so it doesn't seem worth it to prepare tons of lore for something that nobody will see. However, I am for smaller plotlines that trainers can stumble across; possibly something that can be tackled in about two adventures or so. We could also try giving trainers objectives that span the entirety of the game itself (obviously with the consent of both parties), kind of like what I'm gearing up to do (shhhh). This would remove the limitations of zones entirely, and motivate them to continue RPing for the sake of chasing down whatever goal that they're trying to accomplish.

Smaller, more interconnected zones and changes that result from other adventures are good ideas too. That's all I really want to say about that, this post is becoming a behemoth as is.

On monetary reward changes: I'm fine with whatever you guys do, I'm just along for the ride. My only issue with it is that I'm too lazy to record my posts half the time :P

On rewards in general: I am still all for rewards being given out in the middle of adventures, in case anyone forgot about the topic since it's fallen by the wayside.
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Old 05-03-2021, 03:54 PM   #21
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Re: Word Count

While I'm all for lowering the minimum requirement, I'm rather against doing a dollar per word system just for the sheer accounting headache it would cause. Honestly I think a flat rate is fine, with no additional amounts for extra words that go beyond the threshold.

Don't really have an opinion on Zones at this time since I'm generally fine with how they are. Do agree on rewards being given out more consistently/frequently throughout Adventures though.
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Old 05-03-2021, 04:18 PM   #22
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See the thing with Word for Word, in my opinion, is that most people will go and top off at the closest 5 or 0 anyways. Which means only having to push out maybe 4 more words max instead of 20+. Again ghe proposal is to test word for word first and then move to x for x if that proves to not work.
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Old 05-03-2021, 04:59 PM   #23
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See the thing with Word for Word, in my opinion, is that most people will go and top off at the closest 5 or 0 anyways. Which means only having to push out maybe 4 more words max instead of 20+. Again ghe proposal is to test word for word first and then move to x for x if that proves to not work.
If people are going to top off at the closest 5 or more likely the closest 0, then why not just set it at 10 for 10 so we don't have people dropping dollars like there's a hole in their pockets? People aren't going to feel forced to push out another 7 words for a measly 10 dollars.

EDIT: With regards to the rest of Lit's big post, I agree with most all of his zone points. As for dialogue, I think doing it in DMs, either on Discord or on here, would be a solid way of trimming down expositiony things and would also probably go some ways towards creating dialogue between the updater and updatee, especially with newer updatees and/or updaters who'd need reassurance, or who'd normally feel a bit awkward approaching someone they don't know too well to say that they've got issues with certain aspects of the adventure or something. Generally, I think more communication between updater and updatee isn't going to be a bad thing.
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Old 05-03-2021, 07:16 PM   #24
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I don't have an issue for doing it word for word, though 10 for 10 is probably easier for the accounting. I do agree that people probably won't try and force the RP to hit the next 10.

That being said, doing word for word allows more flexibility. For those that just want to do 10 for 10 and can't be bothered with the spare change, they can just not claim it. Meanwhile those willing to do slightly extra bookkeeping of the spare change, can have fun with all those non-round bank accounts.

Is the concern that by allowing word for word, people will feel obliged to do the extra accounting and it'll be a pain? Or is the concern that people who didn't want to deal with the accounting feel left out/cheated out of some money?

Again, the difference between 10 for 10 and word for word is very small in my opinion and I'd be fine with either implementation.
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Old 05-03-2021, 09:33 PM   #25
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I still think that doing dollar for word on zone posts does conflict with not wanting to police it too heavily, and I still think doing it in chunks is better overall.

EDIT: 10 for 10 also just feels too small to me.
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