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Old 11-01-2020, 09:10 PM   #1
Sandaa
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Bulbasaur Fizzytopian Regional Variant Discussion and Q&A

Greetings Fizzytopians! To follow up the buzz behind the Pumpkasaur’s evolution art contest and our official re-branding of the species as a Fizzytopian Regional Variant, I would like to make this thread as an all-inclusive discussion forum for all things Regional Form related. Feel free to ask or discuss anything realted to Fizzytopian Regional Variants here. I will do my best to answer them to the best of my ability, and I wish to outline a few thoughts and expectations that TKF and I came up with prior to the event! These notes are NOT set in stone, however, we did come up with them keeping fair & balanced gameplay in mind so if you feel that they should be different, please back up your reasoning and keep discussion civil!

I have taken the liberty of creating a Regional Variant Pokedex thread, so please give it a look-over and let me know if you see anything you wish to see changed or added!

1. Creation and Availability:
  • I would like to preface this by saying TKF and I were extremely impressed with the quality and creativity that you all exhibited in the Pumpkasaur art contest, and how seamlessly the voting performed. It is our goal to host more contests like these on an annual or bi-annual basis.
  • Origin Habitats: My goal for the theming of future contests to create specific Regional Variants is that said forms would be centered around a specific theme/environment, pinpointing to an actual zone or sub-area of a zone in FB. That means a variant’s environment could be based off of the Arboreal Cradle in general, something more specific like the Arcane Realm’s Land of Cups, or something really specific like The Spatial Abyss of the Fizzific Ocean’s Ocean of Mystery. The point of this is simple: I want these regional forms to be something unique and special to FB; I want their roots tied deeply to the lore of the vast ecosystems the region has to offer rather than just be some random retyping of an existing Pokemon.
  • Restrictions: The original rules for Pumpkasaur stated that it is both Non-Evolvable and Non-Tradeable. We have already did away with both of those restrictions in recent months, but there is one existing rule that TKF and I wish to maintain in order to make regional variants feel more special and unique and not too commonplace. As stated here, when Pumpkasaur (or regional variants) breed, they will produce a regular non-regional form offspring. However, I would like to segway this rule into the next major topic which might answer some questions you already have:
2. Fizzytopian Essence:
  • We don’t want regional variants to be completely unobtainable, like Pumpkasaur was for the past 4 years. Recently we introduced Alolan, Galarian, and Vanilla Incenses to help facilitate members’ ability to obtain the regional variants they want. Our goal is to accomplish something similar here but with a few differences (Hence the name ‘Essence’ instead of ‘Incense’).
  • Unlike the aforementioned Incenses, as well as Old Spice Incense, the Fizzytopian Essence will NOT be an unlimited-use item but rather a one-use item. The essence will also be a rare reward, likely locked to event rewards one or two times a year, likely being Fizzypendence Day. As I stated before, we don’t want regional forms to suddenly become commonplace in FB; we want them to be something you save up for and work hard to obtain through various means. It’s not set in stone exactly how they will be obtained, but barring any serious objections this will likely be the avenue for them. We don’t want them to just be something you pick up at the Department Store or Watt Shop.
  • There could be other restrictions on the essence, such the item itself is non-tradeable, or the parent it is used on must also be a Fizzytopian variant, or maybe it can’t be used in tandem with an Old Spice Incense. I’m not sure if some of these restrictions are a bit excessive, but I’ll wait to see what kind of feedback you all provide.
3. Fizzytopian Pokedex Entries and Updates:
  • As mentioned at the top of this post, I have created a rudimentary Fizzytopian Regional Variant Pokedex to be used as reference material for our creations. Please use this thread if you ever at any point in the future wish to add input to that thread. This could be Pokedex entry flavor, correcting a height/weight, discussing possible moveset/ability changes, or submitting official or unofficial fanart for existing species. All input is welcome and greatly encouraged!
  • For Pumpkasaur, Squashsaur, and Gourdasaur specifically: (and I highly encourage SpinyShell to chime in here since you are the creator of Pumpkasaur’s evolutions) I didn’t create any Pokedex entries yet and I mostly just copied over all of the standard data from the Bulbasaur line. Are there any changes you all wish to see made that we can decide on as a community? Are the height/weight measurements fine? Should we switch its Hidden Ability from Chlorophyll to something that fits its nocturnal theme better? Personally I think we should change replace Synthesis from its level-up moveset with Moonlight (same effect but the flavor fits the theme better). Several of you have pointed out that the Bulbasaur line does not learn and Ghost type attacks naturally. What Ghost or other thematic moves should be added to its moveset? If we do decide to add a bunch of Ghost moves, what possible moves can we remove from its existing movesets to balance out the additions and separate it from standard Bulbasaur-lines?
I think that’s all I have for now, so I will open up discussion to the rest of you to answer any questions you might have and discuss any additions or changes you might think of!
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Old 11-01-2020, 09:23 PM   #2
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I'm not great at these overarching discussions, but I can say that a great move to add or swap in for the Pumpkasaur line would be Will-O-Wisp, considering Spiny's design centering around the blue-purple flames and candles.
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Old 11-01-2020, 09:47 PM   #3
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Honestly I think you're being too restrictive from the start. Have the Essence just work like Incenses, let them pass down their regional forme from breeding. Let them hatch from type/enigma eggs with the same chance as everything else, etc. Treat them like any other Pokemon. What does it benefit to make them artificially scarce?
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Old 11-02-2020, 12:34 AM   #4
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Alrighty, I did some hypothetical movepool changes for the three--I was just curious to see what the community thought of them. I only changed the level-up, egg move, and TM/TR/HM attacks because it's rather late for me and I didn't get a chance to look over the tutor attacks. I thought about giving Squashsaur and Gourdasaur a second custom move called Ethereal Flame referencing their bluish fire.

Ethereal Flame info
Spoiler: show

Type: Ghost
BP: 80
Description: The user scorches the target with otherworldly flames that decay them. This may also poison the target (10% chance).

I didn't want to give them Will-o-Wisp because I imagined the blue flames of Squashsaur and Gourdasaur as not being made of actual fire. Instead, I thought of them more as an otherworldly collection of spirits, so to speak. I did however want to give them a move that references their fire, hence Ethereal Flame. I'm fine if you guys don't want to give Squashsaur and Gourdasaur another custom move, but I just wanted to float this with everyone.

Anyways, here's the movepool changes for review. I would like to note that I didn't really think of balance, just what seemed fitting for them. Yellow boxes indicate changes, and red boxes indicates removed moves. Note that these are rather large images unfortunately. Imgur album link.

Spoiler: show





Edit: See new changes here.

For abilities, I agree with Sandaa that Chlorophyll isn't very fitting. I was thinking of Harvest, Cursed Body, or Shadow Tag as possible alternates.

For the heights and weights, I imagine them as shorter and squatter; I think they could be heavier than their Kantonian counterparts due to their heavy pumpkins, and a little bit shorter due to their lack of sunlight.

Last edited by SpinyShell; 11-03-2020 at 09:16 PM. Reason: Movepool has been changed
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Old 11-02-2020, 01:19 PM   #5
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First, I just want to say that I love the idea of more regional formes, particularly ones that could end up being based on familiar locale from Fizzytopia. With all of the existing lore and interesting places we’ve all visited and come to love (or hate!), the well of inspiration there is surely a deep one. I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t already letting my imagination run wild after having spent in (almost) all of the current zones of late ^^;

That being said, I definitely agree with what Emp said about them being something a player would ‘opt-in’ to, be that from entering a contest similar to the most recent one or having to make a point of using/obtaining an Essence. I’m not saying I wouldn’t want one of these Pokémon but I wouldn’t want to find one in a ‘normal’ egg roll, mostly due to the sheer novelty of them. Same goes for encounters in zones, unless it was part of an agreed upon quest or event at least. That’s just me, though, others will no doubt be different!

A bit of a question or two, probably for the mods but feel free to weigh in: Would more Fizzytopian formes only become available during annual or biannual contests or would there be other opportunities for them to be discovered and/or be created? (I’m thinking seasonal or holiday events, prizes outside of the explicit contests, if a new zone opened, etc). A recent example of this could be the delightful mutated Lickilicky from the Halloween raid - could something like that actually end up being a Fizzytopian forme?
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Old 11-02-2020, 02:33 PM   #6
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I'll be honest, if people want things to be "opt-in" or "opt-out", the should just post it on their Memakyu. It sort of ruins the surprise in an adventure if a reward has to be pre-discussed between updates and updator. I can understand that some people might be uncomfortable with FB original things in their adventures, but it's simple enough just to state it in the Memakyu and leave it at that.

Edit:

As for the Pumpkasaur line specifically, I do think Will-o-Wisp and Mystical Fire should be added. I can understand SPiny's reasons for Wil-o-wisp, but both of those fire moves definitely play more into the ethereal fire aesthetic.
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Old 11-02-2020, 02:47 PM   #7
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so as I discussed in Discord, I'm all for the Regional variants version of Pokemon (and I'm going one step further and saying I'd be all for something like Obstagoon or Mr. Rime where we can make a singular evolution if the Pokemon seems like it would be weak enough to warrant one). And I do agree with Lil'twick's idea that the memakyu would probably be the best way to quickly see if someone wants the custom regional variants, with the default being "opt out" since it is the vanilla flavor.

All of that being said, if we do contests like this in the future, instead of focusing on one mon, I feel we should do something similarish to the UPC and have a small list of mons that we can make a custom for, but just as always, the winner gets the custom made with second and third place getting some suh-weet prizes. And, I definitely want the people to be able to breed those Pokemon as well. One issue I remember cropping up was a lot of toxicity with the last UPC, specifically with Marblezone's Dragon type Pokemon with, honestly, super cool evolution ideas.

Y'all know how vocal I am about UPC and this was one of the things I've been bugging the mods to create for some time now. So much so that I'm surprised I'm not banned from said contests.
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Old 11-02-2020, 03:19 PM   #8
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I have no interest in Fakemon in general at this point in my FB stay. As long as I don't have to worry about hatching one as part of the general pool the RNG pulls from though, I do think it's a great way to express creativity. Basically, go for it, as long as people have to actively search them out (ideally through contests imo) and those who opt out don't have to run into them (easily avoidable with a warning in our Profiles and the exclusion from "standard" egg rolls).
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Old 11-02-2020, 08:04 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Maskerade View Post
I have no interest in Fakemon in general at this point in my FB stay. As long as I don't have to worry about hatching one as part of the general pool the RNG pulls from though, I do think it's a great way to express creativity. Basically, go for it, as long as people have to actively search them out (ideally through contests imo) and those who opt out don't have to run into them (easily avoidable with a warning in our Profiles and the exclusion from "standard" egg rolls).
This sums up my opinion on the matter pretty concisely.
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Old 11-03-2020, 04:12 PM   #10
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Quote of SpinyShell's proposed movepool changes to the Pumpkasaur evolution line:
Spoiler: show
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinyShell View Post
Alrighty, I did some hypothetical movepool changes for the three--I was just curious to see what the community thought of them. I only changed the level-up, egg move, and TM/TR/HM attacks because it's rather late for me and I didn't get a chance to look over the tutor attacks. I thought about giving Squashsaur and Gourdasaur a second custom move called Ethereal Flame referencing their bluish fire.

Ethereal Flame info
Spoiler: show

Type: Ghost
BP: 80
Description: The user scorches the target with otherworldly flames that decay them. This may also poison the target (10% chance).

I didn't want to give them Will-o-Wisp because I imagined the blue flames of Squashsaur and Gourdasaur as not being made of actual fire. Instead, I thought of them more as an otherworldly collection of spirits, so to speak. I did however want to give them a move that references their fire, hence Ethereal Flame. I'm fine if you guys don't want to give Squashsaur and Gourdasaur another custom move, but I just wanted to float this with everyone.

Anyways, here's the movepool changes for review. I would like to note that I didn't really think of balance, just what seemed fitting for them. Yellow boxes indicate changes, and red boxes indicates removed moves. Note that these are rather large images unfortunately. Imgur album link.
Spoiler: show






For abilities, I agree with Sandaa that Chlorophyll isn't very fitting. I was thinking of Harvest, Cursed Body, or Shadow Tag as possible alternates.

For the heights and weights, I imagine them as shorter and squatter; I think they could be heavier than their Kantonian counterparts due to their heavy pumpkins, and a little bit shorter due to their lack of sunlight.

Interesting changes! I think Poison Powder and Sludge should not be omitted from the movepools, and Sludge Bomb and Venoshock should still be available as a TM/TR for Squashsaur and Gourdasaur. Pumpkasaur is a part Poison-type, after all; also, the movepools of the evolutions should always learn the moves their pre-evolutions learn, and in the same ways. I also think that Shadow Ball and Ethereal Flame's placements should be switched on Squashsaur and Gourdasaur's movesets; I would prefer that they do not get a custom signature move at all, however, so it doesn't become a habit or precedent for future Fizzytopian forms. Also, I must point out that Poltergeist is not an Egg Move, rather exclusively obtained as a Move Tutor move.
Anything I didn't mention about the other changes proposed here, I think are fine; I don't see anything wrong with them. I particularly support Cursed Body as a possible Hidden Ability for the evolutionary line, too.

~~~

My thoughts on Fizzytopian regional forms/variants in general (take my words here with a grain of salt):
Spoiler: show
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandaa View Post
1. Creation and Availability:
  • Restrictions: The original rules for Pumpkasaur stated that it is both Non-Evolvable and Non-Tradeable. We have already did away with both of those restrictions in recent months, but there is one existing rule that TKF and I wish to maintain in order to make regional variants feel more special and unique and not too commonplace. As stated here, when Pumpkasaur (or regional variants) breed, they will produce a regular non-regional form offspring. However, I would like to segway this rule into the next major topic which might answer some questions you already have:
As for availability, I'm not one to talk to about such things as balance, since I have been in FB for just shy of a year *shrug*. But, I do agree with Slash a bit—why make Fizzytopian regional variants harder to obtain than regular Pokémon for those who want them? I don't see much about them that is different from main series regional forms, other than that they are user-created. And as Lit said, anyone who wants to "opt out" or not take part in Fizzytopian regional variant-related things can say so on their Memakyu or profile, I would think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandaa View Post
3. Fizzytopian Pokedex Entries and Updates:
  • As mentioned at the top of this post, I have created a rudimentary Fizzytopian Regional Variant Pokedex to be used as reference material for our creations. Please use this thread if you ever at any point in the future wish to add input to that thread. This could be Pokedex entry flavor, correcting a height/weight, discussing possible moveset/ability changes, or submitting official or unofficial fanart for existing species. All input is welcome and greatly encouraged!

    I think that’s all I have for now, so I will open up discussion to the rest of you to answer any questions you might have and discuss any additions or changes you might think of!
For Pokédex entries, I thought that since Missingno. Master created some in his Pumpkasaur evolution entries, I don't see why we can't use the Pumpkasaur entries in there for Pumpkasaur; they're pretty creative imo. Since that leaves us with Squashsaur and Gourdasaur, I would think that SpinyShell can come up with the Pokédex entries for them, since the creator of the Pokémon is the one who knows them best.
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Old 11-03-2020, 05:22 PM   #11
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While I’m in support of Fizzytopian forms I’m of the opinion they should be more ‘opt-in’ than ‘opt-out’, it seems a bit strange to use your Memakyu for things you don’t want to encounter.

I wonder if future contests should have entrants submit suggested movepools, base stats (for flavour) and Pokedex entries with their submissions. That way you’re voting for a fully fledged concept rather than just artwork. Either that, or have some sort of formalised community driven process for deciding what the winning Pokemon gets, similar to how Smogon runs its CAP contests. As it stands I’m not exactly clear on who gets the final say on what in the Pokedex thread, is it the winner or the mods? I think some more clarity on how the suggestion and approval process would work would help.

If the contests are to run bi-annually, I think it would be cool if there was one contest where you could submit whatever you wanted, and another based around a specific theme or area like how this one was Halloween themed. It would be nice to see something like this happen again as part of a future Christmas event or a tie in to a new zone launch, for example.
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Old 11-03-2020, 09:13 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil'twick View Post
Edit:

As for the Pumpkasaur line specifically, I do think Will-o-Wisp and Mystical Fire should be added. I can understand SPiny's reasons for Wil-o-wisp, but both of those fire moves definitely play more into the ethereal fire aesthetic.
After thinking it over, I do think that Will-o-wisp and Mystical Fire would be very fitting--and that giving them a secondary custom move would be a little silly.

Because I’m too lazy to individually link them--and because they’d be rather big and unwieldy to look at, here’s a link to the imgur album with images of their new movepool changes. I did change a bit more things, such as removing movepool changes for Pumpkasaur. I didn’t realize it at the time, but now I can see that giving it a movepool change four years(?) after it was introduced would probably just create headaches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorchic View Post
Quote of SpinyShell's proposed movepool changes to the Pumpkasaur evolution line:
Interesting changes! I think Poison Powder and Sludge should not be omitted from the movepools, and Sludge Bomb and Venoshock should still be available as a TM/TR for Squashsaur and Gourdasaur. Pumpkasaur is a part Poison-type, after all; also, the movepools of the evolutions should always learn the moves their pre-evolutions learn, and in the same ways.
I respectfully disagree. Movepools aren’t always consistent across evolutions. Surskit, for example, can learn several moves through level-up that Masquerain cannot. Musharna, Togekiss, and every single Eeveelution also have such movepool discrepancies as well, so, while uncommon, such changes across movepools aren’t unheard of. Granted, I think these are restricted only to level-up moves--I don’t recall an instance where a pre-evolution can learn a TM/TR/HM that an evolution cannot. That being said, having a type change is (sometimes) going to lead to discrepancies between movepools and I don’t think Squashsaur and Gourdasaur should learn moves of a different type that aren’t fitting for them just because their pre-evolution can. Squashsaur and Gourdasaur just don’t seem like poisonous creatures. While that might cause some discrepancies, when I looked at the moveset viewer for Masquerain I didn’t see any of Surskit’s exclusive moves so I think that such moves would be either removed or grandfathered in as unnatural moves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorchic View Post
I also think that Shadow Ball and Ethereal Flame's placements should be switched on Squashsaur and Gourdasaur's movesets; I would prefer that they do not get a custom signature move at all, however, so it doesn't become a habit or precedent for future Fizzytopian forms.
Hmm. I dropped Ethereal Flame and replaced it with Will-o-wisp, but Shadow Ball could also work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorchic View Post
For Pokédex entries, I thought that since Missingno. Master created some in his Pumpkasaur evolution entries, I don't see why we can't use the Pumpkasaur entries in there for Pumpkasaur; they're pretty creative imo. Since that leaves us with Squashsaur and Gourdasaur, I would think that SpinyShell can come up with the Pokédex entries for them, since the creator of the Pokémon is the one who knows them best.
Whoops, I forgot to mention entries in my previous post.

Squashsaur: When their eyes glow yellow and the flame on their back burns brighter, it means that they are in contact with spirits from the afterlife.
Gourdasaur: The pumpkin on Squashsaur's back was so overwhelmed by the spirits that it burst open. The flames from Gourdasaur's candle do not produce heat and cannot burn, however, when enraged the fire becomes scorching.


As for their heights and weights…

Squashsaur
  • Weight: 35.27lbs/16.0 kg
  • Height: 2’07”/0.80 m

Gourdasaur
  • Weight: 260.15lbs/118.0 kg
  • Height: 5’11”/1.80 m
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Old 11-04-2020, 01:09 PM   #13
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I quite like the proposed movepools for Squashsaur and Gourdasaur, though with their thematics I do think they could use at least *a* Fire move somewhere in there.

I'm in agreement that Memakyu is the best place for opt-in/opt-out, but I honest have to say that given what these mean for the game, there shouldn't be an assumed default beyond discretion of those providing the Pokemon. Frankly we might get new blood in the future and it would only serve to be a hindrance to state to them that they have to place a note in this wish list one way or the other on these Fizzytopian Regional forms. The last thing we need is to add further things for our new blood to have to do.
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Old 11-04-2020, 01:41 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emp View Post
While I’m in support of Fizzytopian forms I’m of the opinion they should be more ‘opt-in’ than ‘opt-out’, it seems a bit strange to use your Memakyu for things you don’t want to encounter.

I wonder if future contests should have entrants submit suggested movepools, base stats (for flavour) and Pokedex entries with their submissions. That way you’re voting for a fully fledged concept rather than just artwork. Either that, or have some sort of formalised community driven process for deciding what the winning Pokemon gets, similar to how Smogon runs its CAP contests. As it stands I’m not exactly clear on who gets the final say on what in the Pokedex thread, is it the winner or the mods? I think some more clarity on how the suggestion and approval process would work would help.

If the contests are to run bi-annually, I think it would be cool if there was one contest where you could submit whatever you wanted, and another based around a specific theme or area like how this one was Halloween themed. It would be nice to see something like this happen again as part of a future Christmas event or a tie in to a new zone launch, for example.
Just want to say that I agree with this completely, especially the part about having a community-driven process for future Fizzytopian regional variants. Now that I think about it, Fizzytopian forms could/should be more of the things people could opt-in on, rather than opt-out. I couldn't have said everything else here better myself.

~~~
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinyShell View Post
After thinking it over, I do think that Will-o-wisp and Mystical Fire would be very fitting--and that giving them a secondary custom move would be a little silly.

Because I’m too lazy to individually link them--and because they’d be rather big and unwieldy to look at, here’s a link to the imgur album with images of their new movepool changes. I did change a bit more things, such as removing movepool changes for Pumpkasaur. I didn’t realize it at the time, but now I can see that giving it a movepool change four years(?) after it was introduced would probably just create headaches.

I respectfully disagree. Movepools aren’t always consistent across evolutions. Surskit, for example, can learn several moves through level-up that Masquerain cannot. Musharna, Togekiss, and every single Eeveelution also have such movepool discrepancies as well, so, while uncommon, such changes across movepools aren’t unheard of. Granted, I think these are restricted only to level-up moves--I don’t recall an instance where a pre-evolution can learn a TM/TR/HM that an evolution cannot. That being said, having a type change is (sometimes) going to lead to discrepancies between movepools and I don’t think Squashsaur and Gourdasaur should learn moves of a different type that aren’t fitting for them just because their pre-evolution can. Squashsaur and Gourdasaur just don’t seem like poisonous creatures. While that might cause some discrepancies, when I looked at the moveset viewer for Masquerain I didn’t see any of Surskit’s exclusive moves so I think that such moves would be either removed or grandfathered in as unnatural moves.
You make a good point. I see what you mean now. However, while pre-evolutions having moves exclusive to their stage was a thing prior to Generation 8, the current generation has gotten rid of all the instances of moves being exclusive to one stage of the evolution line, if that stage is not the final one. (Of course, that does not apply if the Pokémon and its evolutionary line were "dexited" from Gen 8, but that's besides the point, I would think.)
For example, look at Magikarp and Gyarados as of Generation 8. While their movepools are massively different, one thing that Gen 8 changed from Gen 7 is adding Splash, Tackle and Flail to Gyarados' level-up movepool, something that did not happen in previous generations.
Also, take a look at Eevee's level-up movepool compared to Leafeon's, as of Generation 8. As shown, Leafeon now learns all of Eevee's formerly exclusive moves through level-up. Granted, most (if not all) of them are at level 1, but compared to Leafeon's Generation 7 level-up movepool, Leafeon learns all of Eevee's level-up moves now regardless. (Well, except for Celebrate, but that was an event move for Eevee, so... *shrug*.)
I hope this shows that there are no moves exclusive to prior evolutions in Generation 8. Because of this, I think that any level-up moves that are exclusive to Pumpkasaur could still be carried over to Squashsaur and Gourdasaur's level-up moves, but at level 1.

In case it was a mistake, may I ask if Poison Powder, Sweet Scent, Synthesis, and Solar Beam were still meant to be deleted from Pumpkasaur's movepool?
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Old 11-04-2020, 02:50 PM   #15
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I keep meaning to make a post here, and while I haven't gotten around to really starting on some big, all-encompassing post that covers everything we've been talking about here, I feel like I should at least get some of my points across.
  1. I'm cool with people having to opt-in to wanting Fizzytopian Forms to potentially be a part of their FB experience. As I've seen, the notion appeals more to some than to others. I myself am all for it, personally, of course.
  2. I'm all for adjusting learnsets as necessary. Part of my concern with this contest was people going ahead and giving Pumpkasaur evos with different types that it wouldn't even be able to get any STAB moves for without increased Bond or shelling out big Pokédollars at the Move Tutor's. And little touches here and there, like replacing Pumpkasaur's Synthesis with Moonlight, I'm all for that. That said, I do personally object to removing any of Pumpkasaur's Poison moves- even if it loses that type upon evolving, it is still a Poison-type. Is my personal bias towards the Poison type kinda taking the wheel here? Oh, almost assuredly. But I think it's still a valid point.
  3. If any moves are indeed removed from Pumpkasaur's movepool, what of any pre-existing Pumpkasaur that already know such moves? Do they get grandfathered in?

There's probably more I'll have to say on this at some point, but for now, this is what comes to mind.
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Old 01-26-2021, 06:06 PM   #16
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Alright, time to get this all sorted out. First things first, I would like to address my thoughts on some concerns brought up about regional form availability.

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Originally Posted by Pearl's Perap View Post
That being said, I definitely agree with what Emp said about them being something a player would ‘opt-in’ to, be that from entering a contest similar to the most recent one or having to make a point of using/obtaining an Essence. I’m not saying I wouldn’t want one of these Pokémon but I wouldn’t want to find one in a ‘normal’ egg roll, mostly due to the sheer novelty of them. Same goes for encounters in zones, unless it was part of an agreed upon quest or event at least. That’s just me, though, others will no doubt be different!
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Originally Posted by Lil'twick View Post
I'll be honest, if people want things to be "opt-in" or "opt-out", the should just post it on their Memakyu. It sort of ruins the surprise in an adventure if a reward has to be pre-discussed between updates and updator. I can understand that some people might be uncomfortable with FB original things in their adventures, but it's simple enough just to state it in the Memakyu and leave it at that.
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Originally Posted by Maskerade View Post
I have no interest in Fakemon in general at this point in my FB stay. As long as I don't have to worry about hatching one as part of the general pool the RNG pulls from though, I do think it's a great way to express creativity. Basically, go for it, as long as people have to actively search them out (ideally through contests imo) and those who opt out don't have to run into them (easily avoidable with a warning in our Profiles and the exclusion from "standard" egg rolls).
The consensus here seems to be that not everyone wishes to encounter regional forms in their activity of FB, so in order to respect that, I think it would be in the best interest if regional variants were both 1.) not hatchable in randomized egg pools, and 2.) not encounterable in zone adventures unless wished for specifically in their memakyus. Additionally, I was trying to get at it in the Habitat section of the regional pokedex, but I think zones should also have an opt-in on whether certain species may be obtainable within a specific area of their zones. I also want to be sensitive to the ZAs who have specific lore tied to their zone descriptions, and it should be up to them if a regional form can naturally occur there or not.

Next up, changes to Pumpkasaur and its evolutions’ abilities and movepools:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinyShell View Post
Edit: See new changes here.

For abilities, I agree with Sandaa that Chlorophyll isn't very fitting. I was thinking of Harvest, Cursed Body, or Shadow Tag as possible alternates.

For the heights and weights, I imagine them as shorter and squatter; I think they could be heavier than their Kantonian counterparts due to their heavy pumpkins, and a little bit shorter due to their lack of sunlight.
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Originally Posted by Zorchic View Post
Interesting changes! I think Poison Powder and Sludge should not be omitted from the movepools, and Sludge Bomb and Venoshock should still be available as a TM/TR for Squashsaur and Gourdasaur. Pumpkasaur is a part Poison-type, after all; also, the movepools of the evolutions should always learn the moves their pre-evolutions learn, and in the same ways. I also think that Shadow Ball and Ethereal Flame's placements should be switched on Squashsaur and Gourdasaur's movesets; I would prefer that they do not get a custom signature move at all, however, so it doesn't become a habit or precedent for future Fizzytopian forms. Also, I must point out that Poltergeist is not an Egg Move, rather exclusively obtained as a Move Tutor move.
Anything I didn't mention about the other changes proposed here, I think are fine; I don't see anything wrong with them. I particularly support Cursed Body as a possible Hidden Ability for the evolutionary line, too.
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Originally Posted by SpinyShell View Post
After thinking it over, I do think that Will-o-wisp and Mystical Fire would be very fitting--and that giving them a secondary custom move would be a little silly.

Because I’m too lazy to individually link them--and because they’d be rather big and unwieldy to look at, here’s a link to the imgur album with images of their new movepool changes. I did change a bit more things, such as removing movepool changes for Pumpkasaur. I didn’t realize it at the time, but now I can see that giving it a movepool change four years(?) after it was introduced would probably just create headaches.


I respectfully disagree. Movepools aren’t always consistent across evolutions. Surskit, for example, can learn several moves through level-up that Masquerain cannot. Musharna, Togekiss, and every single Eeveelution also have such movepool discrepancies as well, so, while uncommon, such changes across movepools aren’t unheard of. Granted, I think these are restricted only to level-up moves--I don’t recall an instance where a pre-evolution can learn a TM/TR/HM that an evolution cannot. That being said, having a type change is (sometimes) going to lead to discrepancies between movepools and I don’t think Squashsaur and Gourdasaur should learn moves of a different type that aren’t fitting for them just because their pre-evolution can. Squashsaur and Gourdasaur just don’t seem like poisonous creatures. While that might cause some discrepancies, when I looked at the moveset viewer for Masquerain I didn’t see any of Surskit’s exclusive moves so I think that such moves would be either removed or grandfathered in as unnatural moves.


Hmm. I dropped Ethereal Flame and replaced it with Will-o-wisp, but Shadow Ball could also work.
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Originally Posted by Missingno. Master View Post
  1. I'm all for adjusting learnsets as necessary. Part of my concern with this contest was people going ahead and giving Pumpkasaur evos with different types that it wouldn't even be able to get any STAB moves for without increased Bond or shelling out big Pokédollars at the Move Tutor's. And little touches here and there, like replacing Pumpkasaur's Synthesis with Moonlight, I'm all for that. That said, I do personally object to removing any of Pumpkasaur's Poison moves- even if it loses that type upon evolving, it is still a Poison-type. Is my personal bias towards the Poison type kinda taking the wheel here? Oh, almost assuredly. But I think it's still a valid point.
  2. If any moves are indeed removed from Pumpkasaur's movepool, what of any pre-existing Pumpkasaur that already know such moves? Do they get grandfathered in?
I think some of the changes listed are really great, but I would like to weigh in on a few things. To preface all of the points I’m about to make below, I’d like to add that I’ve just spent quite some time going over the moveset differences of various existing regional forms’ movesets, specifically those whose types only slightly differ from their standard forms with a different secondary type, as well as come from an evolutionary tree where the base stage Pokemon doesn’t change much, if at all. The best examples of these criteria are: Alolan Raichu, Alolan Exeggutor, and Galarian Weezing, with Alolan Dugtrio, Alolan Raticate, Alolan Golem, and Galarian Stunfisk to a lesser degree. (I don’t include Galarian Linoone or Galarian Mr. Mime in this criteria because their primary types are different from their standard forms; and Yamask’s evolutions are different species completely)

Firstly, to address some concerns listed above, especially the point made by MM, I don’t think Pumpkasaur’s moveset should change at all. It was originally designed to be more or less a Bulbasaur clone, and because it retains its original poison typing, I think it is imperative that those moves are retained. To Spiny’s point about Fizzytopian Ivysaur and Venusaur not seeming like poisonous creatures, Alolan Exeggutor retains a vast assortment of Psychic type attacks, simply because the moves are naturally learned by Exeggcute. As in both the Pokemon games and by FB rules, moves that are learned by a lower evolutionary stage are also accessible to the evolved forms.

Next, I’d like to review some of the proposed changes listed by SpinyShell. Once again, going off the criteria I listed above as a guide, most of the regional variants have as few as 0 to 1 differences in their level up movepools from their standard forms, with a couple of them having as many as 4 when swapping out one type for another. Additionally, I can’t recall off the top of my head of any instances where moves were just flat out inserted into the movepools instead of being switched from another move in a specific level slot. My opinion is that for the purpose of Fizzytopian Ivy/Venusaur, we should try to minimize the number of changes in the level up movepool and focus primarily where changes would fit thematically (like replacing sun/daylight-based attacks). However, following Gen 8 mechanics like Zorchic mentioned, moves that were previously natural to a base stage but unnatural to its evolutions were ultimately grandfathered in at lv.1. (A good example of this being Seedot’s Explosion previously being exclusive now being learned by Nuzleaf at lv.1) Here are the proposed move changes I would suggest, using Spiny’s list as a guide:
  • Sweet Scent (lv.1)
  • Solar Beam (lv.1)
  • Sweet Scent -> Will-o-Wisp (lv.23 Ivy & Venu)
  • Synthesis -> Moonlight (lv.27/lv.35 Ivy/lv.37 Venu) – an exception being made here to alter Pumpkasaur’s moveset because of theme and the effects of changed moves being identical
  • Solar Beam -> Phantom Force (lv.44 Ivy/lv.53 Venu)
Poison Powder is a tough one to change simply because of one reason: Pumpkasaur learns the move via level up before it’s even eligible to evolve. As for Mystical Fire and Shadow Ball, I think it would be best if those moves were inserted within the TM list rather than the level up list. I can see why you would want to include more ghostly attacks into the level up list, but the fact of the matter is that the Bulbasaur line doesn’t really feature too many poisonous attacks in its level up list either. I think the best way to include those moves would be to replace either Take Down or Double-Edge with them, because a ghost type using Normal attacks seems less fitting (though there are a few who can learn them).

Onto TMs/TRs/MTs: This part might be the hardest for me to address, the reason being that the differences of TMs and MTs that Ivysaur and Venusaur can learn that Bulbasaur cannot are negligible at best. Bulbasaur and Ivysaur have literally identical TM/TR/MT availability, so I’ll list all of the moves that Venusaur can learn that the other two cannot: MTs Block, Outrage, Stomping Tantrum and Terrain Pulse, and TM/TRs Bulldoze, Earth Power, Earthquake, Giga Impact, Hyper Beam, Roar, Rock Climb, and Stomping Tantrum. Giga Impact, Hyper Beam, and Roar are all attacks that most final-evolution Pokemon have access to, so I don’t know if those should be removed, but I think it’s worth a look to swap out the ground type attacks as well as outrage for something more fitting. The 6 MT/TM/TRs that were listed are Poltergeist, Shadow Ball, Hex, Phantom Force, Mystical Fire, and Dark Pulse, and I would agree that all are fitting. Additionally I would add Will-o-Wisp to the TM list because of its availability via proposed level-up changes. (Maybe add Nightmare to the TM options as well since I saw it on Spiny’s proposed EM list; see the next paragraph below for more information)

Lastly is Egg Moves. Honestly, because EMs are tied to all stages of an evolutionary tree and aren’t changed upon evolution, I’m inclined to keep them as they are. As stated before, I don’t think it’s a good idea to alter Pumpkasaur’s moveset at all. Additionally, at the conclusion of the Halloween event, I already announced the addition of Trick-or-Treat to Pumpkasaur’s already massive EM list, so personally I think that should suffice.

So those are my suggestions for changes to the movesets of Squashsaur/Gourdasaur. I know there might not be as many as one might hope for, but I think this specific instance will be a bit unique compared to future Fizzytopian additions because of the constraints set by Pumpkasaur’s initial release several years ago. Please try to keep all of the guidelines and criteria I’ve laid out in mind as you go over my suggestions as we work towards finalizing the list!

The final thing I’d like to address are additions to the Pokedex entries of Pumpkasaur and its evolutions:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorchic View Post
For Pokédex entries, I thought that since Missingno. Master created some in his Pumpkasaur evolution entries, I don't see why we can't use the Pumpkasaur entries in there for Pumpkasaur; they're pretty creative imo. Since that leaves us with Squashsaur and Gourdasaur, I would think that SpinyShell can come up with the Pokédex entries for them, since the creator of the Pokémon is the one who knows them best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinyShell View Post
Squashsaur: When their eyes glow yellow and the flame on their back burns brighter, it means that they are in contact with spirits from the afterlife.
Gourdasaur: The pumpkin on Squashsaur's back was so overwhelmed by the spirits that it burst open. The flames from Gourdasaur's candle do not produce heat and cannot burn, however, when enraged the fire becomes scorching.


As for their heights and weights…

Squashsaur
  • Weight: 35.27lbs/16.0 kg
  • Height: 2’07”/0.80 m

Gourdasaur
  • Weight: 260.15lbs/118.0 kg
  • Height: 5’11”/1.80 m
I have no problem using MM’s pokedex entries for Pumpkasaur, as long as he provides his consent and the community is on board. However, I would suggest that we refine it down from 4 entries to just 1.

No problems at all regarding Spiny’s descriptions of Squash & Gourdasaur, will get those added when everything is finalized.


EDIT: Oh, I also forgot to comment on the Hidden Ability. I think it would be fine if the HA was changed from Chlorophyll to Cursed Body.

Last edited by Sandaa; 01-26-2021 at 06:15 PM.
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Old 01-26-2021, 06:36 PM   #17
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For the record, I do give my consent for my dex entries to become official FB canon for the Pumpkasaur species.

And so basically, the only change that'll take place for Pumpkasaur's level-up movepool is Synthesis being replaced with Moonlight? I can get on board with that. Leaving Poison Powder in shouldn't be too big of a deal even with Squashsaur and Gourdasaur not retaining the Poison typing, when you consider how many Pokémon with zero relation to Poison-types can learn the move in the games. Exeggcute, Chikorita, and Cottonee, to name just a few. Solar Beam I'm not as sure of if we're leaning towards having the entire line not as into sunlight as the Bulbasaur line, though at the same time I'd agree with Phantom Force just being on the evolutions. Which begs the question of what move should go in Solar Beam's place on Pumpkasaur, if any at all? Moonblast?
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Old 01-26-2021, 06:47 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Missingno. Master View Post
For the record, I do give my consent for my dex entries to become official FB canon for the Pumpkasaur species.

And so basically, the only change that'll take place for Pumpkasaur's level-up movepool is Synthesis being replaced with Moonlight? I can get on board with that. Leaving Poison Powder in shouldn't be too big of a deal even with Squashsaur and Gourdasaur not retaining the Poison typing, when you consider how many Pokémon with zero relation to Poison-types can learn the move in the games. Exeggcute, Chikorita, and Cottonee, to name just a few. Solar Beam I'm not as sure of if we're leaning towards having the entire line not as into sunlight as the Bulbasaur line, though at the same time I'd agree with Phantom Force just being on the evolutions. Which begs the question of what move should go in Solar Beam's place on Pumpkasaur, if any at all? Moonblast?
I don't think Moonblast fits because of typing or just general distribution of the move (it doesn't feel fair to give it to a stage 1 poison type when half of fully evolved fairy types don't even get it). As I said before, I'm inclined to mostly just leave Pumpkasaur as it is
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Old 01-26-2021, 06:50 PM   #19
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I don't think Moonblast fits because of typing or just general distribution of the move (it doesn't feel fair to give it to a stage 1 poison type when half of fully evolved fairy types don't even get it). As I said before, I'm inclined to mostly just leave Pumpkasaur as it is
Fair enough. My thinking was kinda comparing it to the notoriously nocturnal Oddish line, which does get Moonblast. Either way, not gonna push the issue, just figured I'd make the suggestion.
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Old 01-26-2021, 07:11 PM   #20
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I think all of those proposed changes Gary has presented makes sense and works for this specific case. All of the move changes make sense with the new aesthetics of the line, as well as the keeping of certain moves since they do make sense for the Pokemon. As for the Solar Beam situation, Ivy and Venu will still have access to it as a natural TM/TR. I'd be fined if Solar Beam was just grandfathered in, and keep it as a last homage to the original line.

I do think we should have more ways to get Fizzytopian forms than just zone adventures, but I have a feeling the Fizzytopian Essence will play a part in that? That is a discussion for after Pumpkasaur and its evos are fully sorted out.
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Old 01-27-2021, 05:42 PM   #21
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Aight since this hasn't moved in a day and Gary is being not even subtle, I've stated this elsewhere but like everyone should be doing right now, will post my thoughts on the matter here for clarity. Spoiled for length.

Spoiler: show
I 100% agree with Gary's writeup.
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Old 01-27-2021, 05:59 PM   #22
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After taking the time to read Sniz's vast thesis above, I too would just like to pop in and say that I'm in support of all the 'approved' propositions from members and the suggestions put forth by Gary in response to them too. Though I think it was always going to be a given, I'm glad to see that these forms would be more something that the updatee/updater/ZA can 'opt-in' to - I feel like that would ultimately encourage me as a member to want to encounter one more down the line, particularly as new Fizzytopian forms and/or their associated lore are introduced into the game ^^
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Old 01-27-2021, 06:07 PM   #23
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Quick question now that I saw Gary's edit about the Ability- would those of us who already locked in Overgrow for our Pumpkasaur before knowing this would ever be a thing be allowed the chance to change it to Cursed Body once this goes into effect?
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Old 01-27-2021, 07:05 PM   #24
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Given that we are already retroactively changing up what was a significant aspect of what made the pumpkasaur what they were (they're inability to evolve in the first place), a safe period to change up its Ability of existing pumpkasaur if one so wishes seems like a decent concession. As much as Overgrow is probably more fitting for a pumpkin patch than it is for most of the other Grass Starters, the simple fact of the matter is that most of the current Overgrow Pumpkasaurs have it because Chlorophyll was just too unfitting to justify it.
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Old 01-27-2021, 07:54 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Missingno. Master View Post
Quick question now that I saw Gary's edit about the Ability- would those of us who already locked in Overgrow for our Pumpkasaur before knowing this would ever be a thing be allowed the chance to change it to Cursed Body once this goes into effect?
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Given that we are already retroactively changing up what was a significant aspect of what made the pumpkasaur what they were (they're inability to evolve in the first place), a safe period to change up its Ability of existing pumpkasaur if one so wishes seems like a decent concession. As much as Overgrow is probably more fitting for a pumpkin patch than it is for most of the other Grass Starters, the simple fact of the matter is that most of the current Overgrow Pumpkasaurs have it because Chlorophyll was just too unfitting to justify it.
Yeah, being able to change abilities one time should be fine. I think we allowed a similar thing when Gengar changed from Levitate to Cursed Body as well.
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