11-01-2020, 10:10 PM | #1 |
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Fizzytopian Regional Variant Discussion and Q&A
Greetings Fizzytopians! To follow up the buzz behind the Pumpkasaur’s evolution art contest and our official re-branding of the species as a Fizzytopian Regional Variant, I would like to make this thread as an all-inclusive discussion forum for all things Regional Form related. Feel free to ask or discuss anything realted to Fizzytopian Regional Variants here. I will do my best to answer them to the best of my ability, and I wish to outline a few thoughts and expectations that TKF and I came up with prior to the event! These notes are NOT set in stone, however, we did come up with them keeping fair & balanced gameplay in mind so if you feel that they should be different, please back up your reasoning and keep discussion civil!
I have taken the liberty of creating a Regional Variant Pokedex thread, so please give it a look-over and let me know if you see anything you wish to see changed or added! 1. Creation and Availability: 2. Fizzytopian Essence: 3. Fizzytopian Pokedex Entries and Updates: I think that’s all I have for now, so I will open up discussion to the rest of you to answer any questions you might have and discuss any additions or changes you might think of! |
11-01-2020, 10:23 PM | #2 |
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I'm not great at these overarching discussions, but I can say that a great move to add or swap in for the Pumpkasaur line would be Will-O-Wisp, considering Spiny's design centering around the blue-purple flames and candles.
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11-01-2020, 10:47 PM | #3 |
Silver LO
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Honestly I think you're being too restrictive from the start. Have the Essence just work like Incenses, let them pass down their regional forme from breeding. Let them hatch from type/enigma eggs with the same chance as everything else, etc. Treat them like any other Pokemon. What does it benefit to make them artificially scarce?
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11-02-2020, 01:34 AM | #4 |
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Ethereal Flame info Spoiler: show I didn't want to give them Will-o-Wisp because I imagined the blue flames of Squashsaur and Gourdasaur as not being made of actual fire. Instead, I thought of them more as an otherworldly collection of spirits, so to speak. I did however want to give them a move that references their fire, hence Ethereal Flame. I'm fine if you guys don't want to give Squashsaur and Gourdasaur another custom move, but I just wanted to float this with everyone. Anyways, here's the movepool changes for review. I would like to note that I didn't really think of balance, just what seemed fitting for them. Yellow boxes indicate changes, and red boxes indicates removed moves. Note that these are rather large images unfortunately. Imgur album link. Spoiler: show Edit: See new changes here. For abilities, I agree with Sandaa that Chlorophyll isn't very fitting. I was thinking of Harvest, Cursed Body, or Shadow Tag as possible alternates. For the heights and weights, I imagine them as shorter and squatter; I think they could be heavier than their Kantonian counterparts due to their heavy pumpkins, and a little bit shorter due to their lack of sunlight.
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Last edited by SpinyShell; 11-03-2020 at 10:16 PM. Reason: Movepool has been changed |
11-02-2020, 02:19 PM | #5 |
Ca-caw!
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First, I just want to say that I love the idea of more regional formes, particularly ones that could end up being based on familiar locale from Fizzytopia. With all of the existing lore and interesting places we’ve all visited and come to love (or hate!), the well of inspiration there is surely a deep one. I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t already letting my imagination run wild after having spent in (almost) all of the current zones of late ^^;
That being said, I definitely agree with what Emp said about them being something a player would ‘opt-in’ to, be that from entering a contest similar to the most recent one or having to make a point of using/obtaining an Essence. I’m not saying I wouldn’t want one of these Pokémon but I wouldn’t want to find one in a ‘normal’ egg roll, mostly due to the sheer novelty of them. Same goes for encounters in zones, unless it was part of an agreed upon quest or event at least. That’s just me, though, others will no doubt be different! A bit of a question or two, probably for the mods but feel free to weigh in: Would more Fizzytopian formes only become available during annual or biannual contests or would there be other opportunities for them to be discovered and/or be created? (I’m thinking seasonal or holiday events, prizes outside of the explicit contests, if a new zone opened, etc). A recent example of this could be the delightful mutated Lickilicky from the Halloween raid - could something like that actually end up being a Fizzytopian forme?
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11-02-2020, 03:33 PM | #6 |
Insanity
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I'll be honest, if people want things to be "opt-in" or "opt-out", the should just post it on their Memakyu. It sort of ruins the surprise in an adventure if a reward has to be pre-discussed between updates and updator. I can understand that some people might be uncomfortable with FB original things in their adventures, but it's simple enough just to state it in the Memakyu and leave it at that.
Edit: As for the Pumpkasaur line specifically, I do think Will-o-Wisp and Mystical Fire should be added. I can understand SPiny's reasons for Wil-o-wisp, but both of those fire moves definitely play more into the ethereal fire aesthetic.
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I fill my lungs with everything You want someone that I can't be You say it's insanity, but I say that's my life Fizzy Bubbles Last edited by Lil'twick; 11-02-2020 at 03:41 PM. |
11-02-2020, 03:47 PM | #7 |
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so as I discussed in Discord, I'm all for the Regional variants version of Pokemon (and I'm going one step further and saying I'd be all for something like Obstagoon or Mr. Rime where we can make a singular evolution if the Pokemon seems like it would be weak enough to warrant one). And I do agree with Lil'twick's idea that the memakyu would probably be the best way to quickly see if someone wants the custom regional variants, with the default being "opt out" since it is the vanilla flavor.
All of that being said, if we do contests like this in the future, instead of focusing on one mon, I feel we should do something similarish to the UPC and have a small list of mons that we can make a custom for, but just as always, the winner gets the custom made with second and third place getting some suh-weet prizes. And, I definitely want the people to be able to breed those Pokemon as well. One issue I remember cropping up was a lot of toxicity with the last UPC, specifically with Marblezone's Dragon type Pokemon with, honestly, super cool evolution ideas. Y'all know how vocal I am about UPC and this was one of the things I've been bugging the mods to create for some time now. |
11-02-2020, 04:19 PM | #8 |
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I have no interest in Fakemon in general at this point in my FB stay. As long as I don't have to worry about hatching one as part of the general pool the RNG pulls from though, I do think it's a great way to express creativity. Basically, go for it, as long as people have to actively search them out (ideally through contests imo) and those who opt out don't have to run into them (easily avoidable with a warning in our Profiles and the exclusion from "standard" egg rolls).
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11-02-2020, 09:04 PM | #9 | |
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11-03-2020, 05:12 PM | #10 | |
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Quote of SpinyShell's proposed movepool changes to the Pumpkasaur evolution line:
Spoiler: show Interesting changes! I think Poison Powder and Sludge should not be omitted from the movepools, and Sludge Bomb and Venoshock should still be available as a TM/TR for Squashsaur and Gourdasaur. Pumpkasaur is a part Poison-type, after all; also, the movepools of the evolutions should always learn the moves their pre-evolutions learn, and in the same ways. I also think that Shadow Ball and Ethereal Flame's placements should be switched on Squashsaur and Gourdasaur's movesets; I would prefer that they do not get a custom signature move at all, however, so it doesn't become a habit or precedent for future Fizzytopian forms. Also, I must point out that Poltergeist is not an Egg Move, rather exclusively obtained as a Move Tutor move. Anything I didn't mention about the other changes proposed here, I think are fine; I don't see anything wrong with them. I particularly support Cursed Body as a possible Hidden Ability for the evolutionary line, too. ~~~ My thoughts on Fizzytopian regional forms/variants in general (take my words here with a grain of salt): Spoiler: show Quote:
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11-03-2020, 06:22 PM | #11 |
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While I’m in support of Fizzytopian forms I’m of the opinion they should be more ‘opt-in’ than ‘opt-out’, it seems a bit strange to use your Memakyu for things you don’t want to encounter.
I wonder if future contests should have entrants submit suggested movepools, base stats (for flavour) and Pokedex entries with their submissions. That way you’re voting for a fully fledged concept rather than just artwork. Either that, or have some sort of formalised community driven process for deciding what the winning Pokemon gets, similar to how Smogon runs its CAP contests. As it stands I’m not exactly clear on who gets the final say on what in the Pokedex thread, is it the winner or the mods? I think some more clarity on how the suggestion and approval process would work would help. If the contests are to run bi-annually, I think it would be cool if there was one contest where you could submit whatever you wanted, and another based around a specific theme or area like how this one was Halloween themed. It would be nice to see something like this happen again as part of a future Christmas event or a tie in to a new zone launch, for example.
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11-03-2020, 10:13 PM | #12 | ||||
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Because I’m too lazy to individually link them--and because they’d be rather big and unwieldy to look at, here’s a link to the imgur album with images of their new movepool changes. I did change a bit more things, such as removing movepool changes for Pumpkasaur. I didn’t realize it at the time, but now I can see that giving it a movepool change four years(?) after it was introduced would probably just create headaches. Quote:
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Squashsaur: When their eyes glow yellow and the flame on their back burns brighter, it means that they are in contact with spirits from the afterlife. Gourdasaur: The pumpkin on Squashsaur's back was so overwhelmed by the spirits that it burst open. The flames from Gourdasaur's candle do not produce heat and cannot burn, however, when enraged the fire becomes scorching. As for their heights and weights… Squashsaur
Gourdasaur
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11-04-2020, 02:09 PM | #13 |
Mrow?
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I quite like the proposed movepools for Squashsaur and Gourdasaur, though with their thematics I do think they could use at least *a* Fire move somewhere in there.
I'm in agreement that Memakyu is the best place for opt-in/opt-out, but I honest have to say that given what these mean for the game, there shouldn't be an assumed default beyond discretion of those providing the Pokemon. Frankly we might get new blood in the future and it would only serve to be a hindrance to state to them that they have to place a note in this wish list one way or the other on these Fizzytopian Regional forms. The last thing we need is to add further things for our new blood to have to do. |
11-04-2020, 02:41 PM | #14 | ||
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For example, look at Magikarp and Gyarados as of Generation 8. While their movepools are massively different, one thing that Gen 8 changed from Gen 7 is adding Splash, Tackle and Flail to Gyarados' level-up movepool, something that did not happen in previous generations. Also, take a look at Eevee's level-up movepool compared to Leafeon's, as of Generation 8. As shown, Leafeon now learns all of Eevee's formerly exclusive moves through level-up. Granted, most (if not all) of them are at level 1, but compared to Leafeon's Generation 7 level-up movepool, Leafeon learns all of Eevee's level-up moves now regardless. (Well, except for Celebrate, but that was an event move for Eevee, so... *shrug*.) I hope this shows that there are no moves exclusive to prior evolutions in Generation 8. Because of this, I think that any level-up moves that are exclusive to Pumpkasaur could still be carried over to Squashsaur and Gourdasaur's level-up moves, but at level 1. In case it was a mistake, may I ask if Poison Powder, Sweet Scent, Synthesis, and Solar Beam were still meant to be deleted from Pumpkasaur's movepool?
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11-04-2020, 03:50 PM | #15 |
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I keep meaning to make a post here, and while I haven't gotten around to really starting on some big, all-encompassing post that covers everything we've been talking about here, I feel like I should at least get some of my points across.
There's probably more I'll have to say on this at some point, but for now, this is what comes to mind. |
01-26-2021, 07:06 PM | #16 | |||||||||
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Alright, time to get this all sorted out. First things first, I would like to address my thoughts on some concerns brought up about regional form availability.
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Next up, changes to Pumpkasaur and its evolutions’ abilities and movepools: Quote:
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Firstly, to address some concerns listed above, especially the point made by MM, I don’t think Pumpkasaur’s moveset should change at all. It was originally designed to be more or less a Bulbasaur clone, and because it retains its original poison typing, I think it is imperative that those moves are retained. To Spiny’s point about Fizzytopian Ivysaur and Venusaur not seeming like poisonous creatures, Alolan Exeggutor retains a vast assortment of Psychic type attacks, simply because the moves are naturally learned by Exeggcute. As in both the Pokemon games and by FB rules, moves that are learned by a lower evolutionary stage are also accessible to the evolved forms. Next, I’d like to review some of the proposed changes listed by SpinyShell. Once again, going off the criteria I listed above as a guide, most of the regional variants have as few as 0 to 1 differences in their level up movepools from their standard forms, with a couple of them having as many as 4 when swapping out one type for another. Additionally, I can’t recall off the top of my head of any instances where moves were just flat out inserted into the movepools instead of being switched from another move in a specific level slot. My opinion is that for the purpose of Fizzytopian Ivy/Venusaur, we should try to minimize the number of changes in the level up movepool and focus primarily where changes would fit thematically (like replacing sun/daylight-based attacks). However, following Gen 8 mechanics like Zorchic mentioned, moves that were previously natural to a base stage but unnatural to its evolutions were ultimately grandfathered in at lv.1. (A good example of this being Seedot’s Explosion previously being exclusive now being learned by Nuzleaf at lv.1) Here are the proposed move changes I would suggest, using Spiny’s list as a guide: Poison Powder is a tough one to change simply because of one reason: Pumpkasaur learns the move via level up before it’s even eligible to evolve. As for Mystical Fire and Shadow Ball, I think it would be best if those moves were inserted within the TM list rather than the level up list. I can see why you would want to include more ghostly attacks into the level up list, but the fact of the matter is that the Bulbasaur line doesn’t really feature too many poisonous attacks in its level up list either. I think the best way to include those moves would be to replace either Take Down or Double-Edge with them, because a ghost type using Normal attacks seems less fitting (though there are a few who can learn them). Onto TMs/TRs/MTs: This part might be the hardest for me to address, the reason being that the differences of TMs and MTs that Ivysaur and Venusaur can learn that Bulbasaur cannot are negligible at best. Bulbasaur and Ivysaur have literally identical TM/TR/MT availability, so I’ll list all of the moves that Venusaur can learn that the other two cannot: MTs Block, Outrage, Stomping Tantrum and Terrain Pulse, and TM/TRs Bulldoze, Earth Power, Earthquake, Giga Impact, Hyper Beam, Roar, Rock Climb, and Stomping Tantrum. Giga Impact, Hyper Beam, and Roar are all attacks that most final-evolution Pokemon have access to, so I don’t know if those should be removed, but I think it’s worth a look to swap out the ground type attacks as well as outrage for something more fitting. The 6 MT/TM/TRs that were listed are Poltergeist, Shadow Ball, Hex, Phantom Force, Mystical Fire, and Dark Pulse, and I would agree that all are fitting. Additionally I would add Will-o-Wisp to the TM list because of its availability via proposed level-up changes. (Maybe add Nightmare to the TM options as well since I saw it on Spiny’s proposed EM list; see the next paragraph below for more information) Lastly is Egg Moves. Honestly, because EMs are tied to all stages of an evolutionary tree and aren’t changed upon evolution, I’m inclined to keep them as they are. As stated before, I don’t think it’s a good idea to alter Pumpkasaur’s moveset at all. Additionally, at the conclusion of the Halloween event, I already announced the addition of Trick-or-Treat to Pumpkasaur’s already massive EM list, so personally I think that should suffice. So those are my suggestions for changes to the movesets of Squashsaur/Gourdasaur. I know there might not be as many as one might hope for, but I think this specific instance will be a bit unique compared to future Fizzytopian additions because of the constraints set by Pumpkasaur’s initial release several years ago. Please try to keep all of the guidelines and criteria I’ve laid out in mind as you go over my suggestions as we work towards finalizing the list! The final thing I’d like to address are additions to the Pokedex entries of Pumpkasaur and its evolutions: Quote:
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No problems at all regarding Spiny’s descriptions of Squash & Gourdasaur, will get those added when everything is finalized. EDIT: Oh, I also forgot to comment on the Hidden Ability. I think it would be fine if the HA was changed from Chlorophyll to Cursed Body. Last edited by Sandaa; 01-26-2021 at 07:15 PM. |
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01-26-2021, 07:36 PM | #17 |
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For the record, I do give my consent for my dex entries to become official FB canon for the Pumpkasaur species.
And so basically, the only change that'll take place for Pumpkasaur's level-up movepool is Synthesis being replaced with Moonlight? I can get on board with that. Leaving Poison Powder in shouldn't be too big of a deal even with Squashsaur and Gourdasaur not retaining the Poison typing, when you consider how many Pokémon with zero relation to Poison-types can learn the move in the games. Exeggcute, Chikorita, and Cottonee, to name just a few. Solar Beam I'm not as sure of if we're leaning towards having the entire line not as into sunlight as the Bulbasaur line, though at the same time I'd agree with Phantom Force just being on the evolutions. Which begs the question of what move should go in Solar Beam's place on Pumpkasaur, if any at all? Moonblast? |
01-26-2021, 07:47 PM | #18 | |
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01-26-2021, 07:50 PM | #19 | |
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01-26-2021, 08:11 PM | #20 |
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I think all of those proposed changes Gary has presented makes sense and works for this specific case. All of the move changes make sense with the new aesthetics of the line, as well as the keeping of certain moves since they do make sense for the Pokemon. As for the Solar Beam situation, Ivy and Venu will still have access to it as a natural TM/TR. I'd be fined if Solar Beam was just grandfathered in, and keep it as a last homage to the original line.
I do think we should have more ways to get Fizzytopian forms than just zone adventures, but I have a feeling the Fizzytopian Essence will play a part in that? That is a discussion for after Pumpkasaur and its evos are fully sorted out.
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I fill my lungs with everything You want someone that I can't be You say it's insanity, but I say that's my life Fizzy Bubbles |
01-27-2021, 06:42 PM | #21 |
Mrow?
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Aight since this hasn't moved in a day and Gary is being not even subtle, I've stated this elsewhere but like everyone should be doing right now, will post my thoughts on the matter here for clarity. Spoiled for length.
Spoiler: show |
01-27-2021, 06:59 PM | #22 |
Ca-caw!
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After taking the time to read Sniz's vast thesis above, I too would just like to pop in and say that I'm in support of all the 'approved' propositions from members and the suggestions put forth by Gary in response to them too. Though I think it was always going to be a given, I'm glad to see that these forms would be more something that the updatee/updater/ZA can 'opt-in' to - I feel like that would ultimately encourage me as a member to want to encounter one more down the line, particularly as new Fizzytopian forms and/or their associated lore are introduced into the game ^^
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01-27-2021, 07:07 PM | #23 |
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Quick question now that I saw Gary's edit about the Ability- would those of us who already locked in Overgrow for our Pumpkasaur before knowing this would ever be a thing be allowed the chance to change it to Cursed Body once this goes into effect?
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01-27-2021, 08:05 PM | #24 |
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Given that we are already retroactively changing up what was a significant aspect of what made the pumpkasaur what they were (they're inability to evolve in the first place), a safe period to change up its Ability of existing pumpkasaur if one so wishes seems like a decent concession. As much as Overgrow is probably more fitting for a pumpkin patch than it is for most of the other Grass Starters, the simple fact of the matter is that most of the current Overgrow Pumpkasaurs have it because Chlorophyll was just too unfitting to justify it.
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01-27-2021, 08:54 PM | #25 | ||
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