Pokémon Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon General Discussion [Spoiler Warning]

[Talon87]

We didn't really learn much from all the new news. Just the two new Ultra Beasts. Everything else ...

• Necrozma has taken over Solgaleo/Lunala's body and is in control of it
• how you get your starters is different from how it was in Sun and Moon
• unused areas in Sun and Moon are now being turned into areas with purpose
• some of the same plot events from Sun and Moon return, indicating that this is more than likely an alternate reality telling of the same story rather than a same-universe prequel or sequel

we already knew or were confidently speculating.

I think what people will most want to see, and what Nintendo would be smart to not reveal pre-release (but is probably going to reveal some time next month or in November right before release), is:

• confirmation that Lillie is the same or is different
• ditto for Gideon
• ditto for Mohn
• ditto for just about every Aether member, Skull member, trial captain, and Elite Four member
• confirmation that this plot will or will not involve the same story about Lillie running off with Cosmog
• confirmation that Colress plays a similar, lesser, or greater role in this game compared with Sun and Moon
• ditto for Grimsley (and other members of Unova's Elite Four)
• confirmation that USUM has an established League already, and so Kukui's subplot about trying to form a league in Alola is gone
• ANY AND ALL OTHER PLOT OR CHARACTER CHANGES FROM SUN AND MOON

That's really all this boils down to at this point. Other than a tiny number of non-plot related, non-character related changes or implementations that I can think of (see below), what people are most curious to know at this point is how USUM differ from SM in terms of the story and characters. We already know it's going to be the same Generation 7 engine with the (largely) same Generation 7 changes that Sun and Moon brought. No one is seriously expecting USUM to, for example, quintuple the wardrobe selection choices or to introduce a new type. People are just expecting more of the same (Sun and Moon) dressed up in new clothes.

As for non-plot, non-character changes I can think of that I or others would want to know about ...

• are you going to expand the Battle Royal Dome's area to be more of a full-fledged Battle Frontier?
• are you going to bring back Internet Wi-Fi Co-Op for Battle Frontier-esque facilities?
• will USUM fix the terrible lag issues that happen when, for example, you go into a Doubles match?
• will USUM have all/many past legendaries and mythicals available for capture? (Similar to ORAS.) (This question is particularly begged now that we know purchasers of Virtual Console Gold and Silver will get to do what looks like downloading a Gen 7 Celebi to SMUSUM, not transferring a Gen 2 Celebi from VC GS to SMUSUM.)
• will any changes be made to Poké Pelago functionality? (For example, will Isle Evelup's experience point gain be fixed such that it is actually worth using? It's worthless at the low levels because you don't want your Egg Moves to be overwritten, and it's worthless at the high levels because you only gain 300 EXP every 15 minutes. )

These sorts of questions aside, most of what I (and, I think, most people) really want to know is what we're going to discover just by playing through the story -- the changes made to the plot and to the characters.

[Ironthunder]

idk, the most I want to see is the lag fixes (Not just doubles, the game lags with basically every offensive Z-move) and mayyybe some interesting move tutors. The story stuff is hardly going to matter, chances are I'll have forgotten it within a few hours. And as for trials/gyms, I'd rather go back to gyms. Trials were fun, but they sucked ass.

[Heather]

The only trial I wasn't a fan of was the Electric trial and that was because of the "oooooh the totem's coming!" scenes between each quiz question. Also, not having wilds appear during trials was an actual godsend.

[Missingno. Master]

I've never really experienced any lag in Sun and Moon myself. Of course, I play on a New 3DS XL, so I'm guessing that might have something to do with it, yeah?


As for trials vs. Gyms, I'd actually be fine either way.

[Naru]

I liked the trials, but man did my 3DS ever lag during the Water Totem fight. (Everything else was fine, just that one fight)

[Ironthunder]

I was on N3ds xl, there was lag by the arseload. Switches, large models, offensive Z-moves, and Doubles had single-digit frames in places.

Trials... they just felt like weak gyms. Mandatory encounters and sometimes small puzzles, with a boosted bonobo at the end. Only difference was instead of having trainers with multiple Pokemon, it was just single-mon battles. Also the puzzles, if they existed at all, were pathetic compared to the puzzles of older gyms.

[Crys]

For me, i just hope our main character actually fucking has facial animation this time around. having in every cutscene gets old fast.

[Naru]

Originally Posted by Crys

For me, i just hope our main character actually fucking has facial animation this time around. having in every cutscene gets old fast.

Put sunglasses on them. It makes everything 100% better.

Spoiler: show

---

I was on a regular 3DS but yeah. Lag kinda ruins the experience for me? I hope it's improved for broke asses like me that can't afford a new DS.

[Talon87]

A new poster is out for Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon. Soft-confirms the return of Nebby, suggesting that the Nebby subplot has not likely been entirely scrapped despite any changes being made to the story. Whether the subplot is 100% intact or not remains of course to be seen. And indeed, in this very same poster we see Ponytail Lillie, leaving in question whether she's in ponytail mode from the very start or whether she's going to go through the same character arc that she did in Sun & Moon.

[Emi]

It's also worth noting that Lillie is holding a Pokeball, so she may end up being a rival-type character as well. There is also the three mysterious figures at the top. My money is on them being trainers or possibly some kind of branch of the Aether Foundation. But they also do sort of remind me of Colress; so maybe we're going to see Colress in a bigger role.

On a minor note that is probably going #toodeep Gladion is shown by not Type: Null or Silvally.

[Talon87]

I can't really tell what is happening at the top of the poster because of all the blur, but if you're right about those being people in ornate costume (rather than Pokémon, statues, or even arms of a single Pokémon), then I have to wonder ...

• Ghetsis is the king of ornate costumes
• Ghetsis ties in with Colress
• Ghetsis is connected with Pokémon fusion
• Necrozma-Solgaleo and Necrozma-Lunala are the latest Pokémon fusions
• Colress was in Sun and Moon but, aside from being a really exciting cameo, didn't do too much in the end
• Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, while not being narrative sequels, are joined only by Black 2 and White 2 as "games in a generation which share the same base names as the generation launch titles" (i.e. it was called Platinum and not Diamond 2 or it was called Emerald and not Ultra Ruby, yet here we are with BW1BW2 and SMUSUM)
• Hawaii is American, and so it's not unreasonable to expect Unovan tie-ins with Alola. And sure enough, we had both Colress and Grimsley cameos in SM. Who is Ghetsis but the archvillain of the Unovan games?

So who knows. We'll see. Somewhat wild speculation, but again ... if those are people in ornate costume up top, they look far too ornate to be Faba or Wicke ...

Now, second possibility: they could also be people inside of mechsuits. Which calls to mind the postgame subplot from X and Y. We already had Colress, the mad scientist from Unova, in Sun and Moon. Who's to say we don't get Xerosic, the mad scientist from Kalos, in Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon? Perhaps there are people inside of those suits, and they're similar to the suit he used to turn Emma into Essentia?

But like I said ... I really can't tell what on earth is happening at the top of the picture. I can't even tell if they're supposed to be humans, Pokémon, or parts of a single blurred-out Pokémon. And we know Game Freak's R&D team loves the whole "ribbed bellies" thing, especially on dragons. So maybe the ribbed belly we see on the right one suggests that these are Pokémon. Could be Pokémon from the same lineage as the Tapus. Could be anti-Tapus. Could be Pokémon from the same lineage as the Ultra Beasts we normally call "Ultra Beasts", like Pheromosa and Kartana. (Seeing as we don't normally refer to Solgaleo, Lunala, or the Tapus as anything "ultra".)

[Median Dia]

I'm not fond of being the bearer of bad news, but we've already had a few screenshots that tell us that the Lillie arc is going to be mostly the same, at least until necrozma shows up to steal the show from Nebby (and Nebby itself, for that matter). Nebby still gets assaulted by those Arceus-forsaken birds, Lusamine still forces it to evolve to cosmoem... Not much change there.

That said, the poster is the first time we've seen Lillie actually holding a pokeball. You know things are serious when a pacifist gives up and decides to fight back!

I also can't glean anything specific from the silhouettes, and I have my contacts in today. Seems like GF's answering the complaints they likely got with the last batch of pre-release screenshots by showing off a bit of what is new... without actually revealing anything. Also, the girl looks just a little more threatening than the guy, and she has a flower on her head. Oops!

[Talon87]

If both the Nebby and the Lusamine subplots are the same as before, then this game really is just another Emerald or Platinum with an intentionally deceptive title that is meant to make it seem like more. No one ever advertised Platinum as being "an alternate universe where things take a slightly different turn from how they did in Diamond and Pearl," but when you get right down to it that's what it is. Same thing applies to Emerald and its relationship with Ruby and Sapphire.

I can't see USUM sales being very good. A lot of people within the hardcore fandom are going to skip out on it because of the lack of changes. (The same people who skip out on titles like Emerald or Platinum.) A lot of people outside the hardcore fandom will also skip out on it since it's not Stars (Gen 7 on Switch) nor is it Gen 8 (brand-new games on Switch). Guaranteed to show up are the VGC reasons for buying this game. (Move tutors, better means by which to generate competitive Pokémon, etc.) But for this game to take back the casuals and the disinterested Pokéfaithful, it's really going to need something akin to a Battle Frontier or Wi-Fi co-op or an expansive post-game. ("Hey, guys: this time we actually will be visiting Kalos for the second half!")

[Missingno. Master]

Burst and Assembly, though, very strongly imply that US/UM will be introducing some new Pokémon species. First time that's ever happened mid-generation (though after ORAS, I kinda saw it coming- since ORAS introduced new Megas, new moves, and new Abilities mid-generation, I figured new species mid-generation was the next logical step). The promise of new Pokémon tends to do good things to the sales of new Pokémon games, and I feel like these will be no different in that regard. And we really can't rule out the introduction of something big. Even if not a Battle Frontier- B2/W2 gave us the single greatest battle facility in the history of Pokémon in the form of the PWT. US/UM could give us the triumphant return of the PWT, for all we know. Or maybe even something better than that.

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by Missingno. Master

Even if not a Battle Frontier- B2/W2 gave us the single greatest battle facility in the history of Pokémon in the form of the PWT.

Pros to PWT:

• Cameos! All our favorites are back! And with great Monotype teams, too!
• Lets you download the World Champions' teams to battle against under the control of the A.I.

Cons to PWT:

• Does fucky things with the timeline. (Either you explain it away as "PORTALS! " or else you have to somehow reconcile that Giovanni would show up looking grouchy and Rockety despite the games taking place years after Red and Green.) (Similar issues for gym leaders' ages. Kanto and Johto gym leaders both look as old as they did in Generation 2, but no one else looks "Johto aged" if that makes any sense. Also, if Black and White take place after the previous generations and Black and White 2 take place an additional two years after that, then shouldn't everyone look 2+ years older than the Johto ages?)
• Doesn't feature Wi-Fi co-op like the Gen 4 games did
• Is only the Battle Dome -- hardly an adequate replacement for the seven-arena'd Battle Frontier in Emerald or the five-arena'd Battle Frontier in PtHGSS.

I enjoyed it. I thought it was strictly better, cuter and more fun, than the Battle Subway in Nimbasa. I would welcome the return of either it or a similar feature. But I don't see it selling many copies of USUM all on its own were it to return. It'd have to be one straw amongst many. And I certainly wouldn't agree that it outdoes Emerald's or PtHGSS's Battle Frontiers. Not when those had the super fun, super pick-up-and-play'able Battle Factories where you could use rental Pokémon to have fun. (The closest thing to Pokémon Showdown's Random Battles that the official games have ever gotten.)

[Ironthunder]

I'm pretty sure that for basically every game barring the first two gens, there's no real interconnectivity, and almost certainly not a timeline. It's not as if Pokemon has anything cohesive between games, all they've established is their current two-world setting with the first being their 'why aren't megas in older titles' write-off and the second being the one they're using until they have another mechanic that requires the past games be written off.

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by Ironthunder

I'm pretty sure that for basically every game barring the first two gens, there's no real interconnectivity, and almost certainly not a timeline.

I think we're witnessing an internal struggle at Game Freak HQ over how best to settle this matter. The fandom internationally assumed a cohesive timeline until this very generation, and as recently as 2014 Game Freak for their part were supportive in this:

Despite the presence of "alternate timelines" from the series' inception, no one has seriously ever thought of Pokémon generations as being unrelated / as taking place in alternate realities until Generation 7. And that's because of the Pandora's Box opened up by ORAS and its Delta Episode. Were it not for that, most fans (99.9% of fans) would still be having this conversation about "how many years before or after [Game X] do we think Sun and Moon are? ". Instead, now you get a sizeable chunk of fans debating whether Sun and Moon even take place in the same reality as Gen 1 at all. I'm not happy about that, but it is what it is. It'll be up to Game Freak -- or rather, up to whomever within Game Freak wins the power struggle -- to settle this question once and for all in the next couple of main series games.

Originally Posted by Ironthunder

It's not as if Pokemon has anything cohesive between games

I don't think this is right though. We can argue about what "cohesive" means, how strong or how weak the link has to be for it to be considered cohesive; but at the end of the day, even if we don't want to call it "cohesive" there are still pretty good and pretty numerous links sprinkled throughout the games that speak to a timeline interconnectivity beyond what was seen with GSC and its famous three-year timeskip after RBY:

• Looker. The very character of Looker connects the universes of Gen 4, Gen 5, Gen 6, and Gen 7 in a way that ceases to be meaningful the moment you write him off as "a different Looker in every instance." Looker isn't interesting if he's a newcomer every single time we meet him. He becomes interesting when he's the same man making different appearances in different games. We feel like we're learning about him, and like he plays a cool part in the Pokémon world's lore.
• a character in Unova indicates that he's a former member of Team Rocket. Specifically, he references events from GSC, and his wife gifts you a RageCandyBar. Given his other words, we know for a fact that (AT LEAST IN THIS TIMELINE ) Black and White take place 2+ years after GSC. Long enough for this guy to relocate to Unova, settle down, start a family, and consider the events of GSC to be a "long time ago".
• then in Black and White 2, which are canonically 2 years after Black and White 1, we have the ex-Magma and the ex-Aqua grunts. Again, this not only connects Gen 5 with a previous generation but it more specifically makes canon that BW2 take place after RSE.
• You've got Jasmine visiting in Diamond and Pearl ...
• You've got Crasher Wake visiting in HeartGold and SoulSilver ...
• You've got Cynthia in not only a bonus chapter of HGSS but in a full-blown canon portion of Black and White ...

Cutting post short because I'm in a discussion with somebody else right now, but suffice to say ... there are a lot of these little "cohesions" which bind the pages of the book together. And again: Game Freak up until very very recently was publicly supportive of the common interpretation that every one of the generations is on the same timeline. There was none of this "split timeline" Zelda nonsense. Not within our fandom, at least. Not until now with the Delta Episode and the Ultra Beasts have we had to worry about answering the question, "How do you know that the older games don't each take place in different though similar dimensions? "

[Missingno. Master]

So I'm still considering my options for my ingame team. I want to use Houndoom, but now I also kinda want to use Honchkrow, considering it's implied we get Murkrow early on in these games. I think the only other game to give us early Murkrow access was Diamond. So now I'm thinking... maybe I'll just go for a mono-Dark team. Never used one of those. Houndoom, Honchkrow, maybe Sableye... I almost never use any of those ingame. This could be an interesting idea.

[Talon87]

MOST INTENSE. TRAILER. EVER! Wow, that was some Inception trailer-level shit!

I don't see an English equivalent on the English-language Pokémon YouTube channel, otherwise I'd link that too. For now though, a quick transcript and some thoughts.

Transcript:

Spoiler: show

ククイ：　ああ！その昔アローラが闇に覆われたとき…アローラのポケモンと人々が光で闇を打ち 消したという
Kukui: Ah! A long time ago, when Alola was covered in darkness ... the Pokémon and the people of Alola used light to oppose/negate the darkness [という and the rest is cut off]

闇の予兆は
An omen of darkness ...

バーネット：　アローラではごくごくまれに空に穴が開くとされてます
Burnett: In Alola, it is believed/understood that extremely rarely holes open up in the sky.

確かにあった
... There certainly was.

シオニラ：　光を操るネクロズマ…アローラの光を奪うのか！
Shionira: The one who manipulates light, Necrozma ... is it going to steal Alola's light!?

もはやここは
This is no longer

キミの知っている
the Alola

アローラではない
THAT YOU KNOW!

グズマ：　相手を活かすことが自分も活かすこと……かよ
活かす can have different meanings that, without more context, make it tough to pin down an exact translation of Guzma's line here. Three possible interpretations are (1) to make the best use of; (2) to let live; and (3) to revive or to resurrect. I'll leave it to you to overwrite the 活かすs below as you see fit.
Guzma: "To 活かす one's partner is to 活かす oneself" ... eh?

グラジオ：　かあさんまで消えたら……！
Gladion: If even Mother is erased ...!

ルザミーネ：　お逃げなさい……　あいつは……化け物よッ！！
Lusamine: Run away ... That thing is ... a monster!!

Thoughts:

Spoiler: show

I wrote before that:

Originally Posted by Talon87

What people are most curious to know at this point is how USUM differ from SM in terms of the story and characters. We already know it's going to be the same Generation 7 engine with the (largely) same Generation 7 changes that Sun and Moon brought.

Originally Posted by Talon87

If both the Nebby and the Lusamine subplots are the same as before, then [...] I can't see USUM sales being very good. A lot of people within the hardcore fandom are going to skip out on it because of the lack of changes.

It definitely seems like Game Freak understood this and is set to deliver us a USUM with an exciting plot that will excite players familiar with SM's story and will veer off the rails, hard, somewhere in the third act. Instead of Lusamine's new-best-friend-time with Nihilego in Ultra Space, we're possibly going to get Necrozma hijacking the show and sucking Lusamine out of existence. What begins for Lillie as a journey to rescue Nebby from the clutches of her evil mother transforms into a journey to rescue her mother from the clutches of the evil Necrozma. And to rescue Nebby, too, given what we know about Necrozma hijacking Solgaleo/Lunala's body.

One thing is for certain: Lusamine's subplot won't remain the same once Necrozma appears before her. Gladion's and Lusamine's lines in the trailer make it very clear that Lusamine fears Necrozma, doesn't believe it's possible to befriend it, and wants the children to stay as far away from it as possible. And then it vanishes her.

Does Guzma's role here also shift? Is he, too, on a rescue mission to save Lusamine? Perhaps USUM can shed some more light on the curious relationship that Lusamine and Guzma share, especially given the existence of Mohn.

Adore the song used here. While I severely doubt we're going to hear it or anything quite like it in the game proper, man can a guy dream! Man can a guy hope to be wrong! (Yes, yes: it's very Hans Zimmer Inception-ey. So what? It sounds great.)

Curious to see if the Ultra Beasts are going to factor into the plot more in USUM. I still haven't activated my Ultra Beast post-game story yet in Sun. (Been too busy with work, studies, other distractions, and even when I do touch Sun it's to do breeding stuff.) Not for lack of interest, either! I just ... haven't gotten around to doing it yet. That's one of the risks you run with locking content behind the post-game barrier: you run the risk of people never discovering or enjoying it. Maybe they realized too few people were doing UB stuff ("Who's Anabel? ") and they wanted to address that by bringing the UBs into the fore.

Curious to see how it can be rationalized away that Necrozma is the Big Bad here in USUM but in SM he's just some punk nobody legendary you capture just to add to your collection. Perhaps the same way they did it with Giratina in Gen 4: not doing it. ^^;; They pretty much just ignored the fact that Giratina is a "oh wtf I was exploring this random castle and suddenly I caught a ghost god" distraction in Diamond and Pearl but is the star of the show in Platinum. Maybe that's Necrozma's fate. We'll have to wait and see.

[Talon87]

HAHAHAHAHAHA oh wow, so ... we got the English-language trailer, only ... IT'S NOT THE SAME. ^^; It shares maybe 20% tops the same footage in common. 80%+ of it is different material. Also, hilariously enough, the English-language trailer manages to be TEN TIMES more spoilery than the Japanese one did, all while being way less exciting. What a colossal disappointment. ^^; Thank Christ for the Japanese trailer.

EDIT: Okay, so, the Japanese also got this trailer this morning. So ... rather than referring to them as "the Japanese trailer" and "the English trailer", seems it's more accurate to say Japan got two early October trailers whereas America, Europe, and Australia only got the second of these.

Anyway ... discussion of the US/EU/AUS trailer and the many numerous spoilers within:

Spoiler: show

Apparently a new mechanic in USUM is riding Solgaleo/Lunala to enter Ultra Space. You do this regularly, and so they turned it into something of a minigame involving rings, sort of like a wavesurfing game.

Confirmation that you fight the UBs on their home turf in USUM, rather than fighting them in various corners of Alola. Nihilego, Xurkitree, and Buzzwole are all featured during this segment. Confirmation that Nihilego's home turf is the same place we saw in SM with Lusamine.

"ULTRA MEGALOPOLIS - A WORLD WHERE NECROZMA HAS STOLEN THE LIGHT." Confirmation that humans do exist in Ultra Space, that it's not merely some bizarro alternate universe where instead of humans and Pokémon the lifeforms instead evolved into Ultra Beasts. I mean, they did that too , but here's proof that humans do indeed reside in Ultra Space, and even have a civilization there.

"THE ULTRA RECON SQUAD." The four mysterious newcomers are given individual names as well as a group name. Group name is the Ultra Recon Squad (I just said that!), individual names are Dulse, Zossie, Phyco, and Soliera. It's unclear to what extent they are allies and to what extent they are antagonists. In fact, I think it's split -- I get the impression that Dulse is a nice guy and that generally speaking the U.R.S. is on our side, but that Phyco might be a rogue operative who ends up being an antagonist. We'll have to wait and see though.

"UB ADHESIVE." A new Ultra Beast is shown off here. Pure Poison type. First UB to look like one of the so-called legendary pixie Pokémon. (Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, you know the type. ) Furthermore, it's shown under the ownership of the U.R.S. So ... that's a thing! And as if that weren't enough, the trailer also displays UB Adhesive inside of Pokémon Refresh, all but confirming that you get to own UB Adhesive yourself later on in the game.

UB Burst's typing is given away. And it's the surprising typing of Fire/Ghost. O_o Huh. I don't think anyone called that!

UB Assembly's typing is also revealed and it's ROCK/STEEL LOLOLOL OKAY, PACK IT UP AND GO HOME, BOYS, AIN'T NO WAY THIS THING'S MAKING ANY IMPACT OUTSIDE OF VGC. Ughhhhhhhhh ... SHITTY TYPING IS SHITTY for a Pokémon that's meant to be a defensive monster! Maybe this is premature. Maybe it'll have HP and Defense stats through the roof. Sorely doubt they will be enough though.

So the two trailers focus on entirely different things. The first Japanese trailer is more plot-focused (even if the second one somehow manages to give away more plot spoilers ), while the second trailer / the only trailer the US/EU/AUS has gotten seems more about game mechanics and "THINGS YOU CAN DO!" in the new games. Japanese trailer #1 takes a closer look at new trials befalling old friends, while Japanese trailer #2 is more concerned with the new criminal organization.

Pretty amazing what a great song and good editing can do for you. I adore the first trailer, and see it selling a ton of games to fence sitters. I don't much care for the second trailer, and feel like it's guilty of the same, tired "LET'S REVEAL EVERYTHING THERE IS TO REVEAL ABOUT THE NEW GAMES RIGHT ON THE EVE OF THEIR RELEASE! " pattern that the eleventh hour trailers for XY and ORAS were guilty of as well.

[Missingno. Master]

If we can get UB Adhesive during the main story, I may have to rethink the whole mono-Dark team thing, because HOLY CRAP I WANT THIS SO BADLY IT'S SO CUTE I LOVE IT BEST ULTRA BEAST EVER!!!

[Emi]

UB Assembly can still be really good. Rhyperior is a really solid defensive Pokemon despite its typing thanks to its amazing HP pool. As long as Assembly has good HP and solid defenses, it has a potential to be really relevant, especially since it could potentially have wacky moves.

I am actually hyped for this game though. It looks like we're going to have a somewhat different plot, which is great.

[Snorby]

I don't think there's any way it'll be "really good", assuming "really good" is as good or better than Rhyperior. Rhyperior's got an ungodly attack stat, double dance, a killer movepool, a great offensive typing, and perhaps most importantly, solid rock. UB Assembly doesn't have Solid Rock or STAB Edgequake, and something tells me it won't have an exceptional offensive stat (UBs are weird so I could be wrong there), and realistically the UB movepools other than Steela's are... kinda meh, really.

I think we're looking at a solid NU Pokemon right here, as an alternative to Steelix. Might get banished to BL3 if it's stats are really something special. I don't think there's a way in hell it cracks RU, though.

[Emi]

I know it just bugs me that Steel / Rock is being regarded as the taboo type when many of the UBs have worse typing than that.

This could definitely be a better Steelix. I'm expecting it to have some wacky moves as well.

[Snorby]

What I think would be fun and really spice it up relative to other bulky walls is if it was a special attacker. Show me a base ~110+ SpA stat and a solid special movepool and we'll be cooking with gas. None of this Heavy Slam EQ Stone Edge boring shite

ok Mixed stats with Heavy Slam EQ Stone Edge boring shite would be fine too I guess