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Old 02-03-2023, 06:11 PM   #26
Talon87
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Chapter 8 Section 5: Whiteboard

I can't call this one "Chapter 8.5" because Nasu's a butt and has gone and assigned the 8.5 name to a later bonus chapter. So much for my carefully crafted chapter and subchapter numbering scheme ... ;(

"Whiteboard" is the fifth subchapter of Chapter 08. The first four subchapters ("Mountain Cleaning During Winter Break", "The Witch and The Feral Child", "A Collar for a Present?", and "A Calm Morning") are all part of the built-in main story experience, but "Whiteboard" you have to access via the archive.

Spoiler: show

Soujuurou's neck bandages: They go missing in this chapter. =o Or at least, they go missing while he is outdoors clearing brush and litter again with Kinomi and Tobimaru. He's wearing the white dog collar that Aoko "gifted" to him, but that's all he's wearing around his neck. We actually get to see more of Soujuurou's neck this scene with the dog collar on than we've ever gotten to see before!


Aoko's preferences: In a scene where Kumari falls just short of spilling the beans that she has a crush on Tobimaru, we get this line from Aoko regarding her own preferences in men: "I'm not into the pretty boys. I need a macho man. Like that Austrian."

Huh. This is Aozaki Aoko, someone famous in the fandom for a (perhaps fandom-teased) attraction towards adolescent boys. We would later see this exact same attraction written into Nasu's FGO waifu, Miyamoto Musashi, who shares many personality traits with the Aozaki Aoko of Tsukihime.

But the Aozaki Aoko of Mahoutsukai no Yoru has so far been almost a completely different person. Or, as I've remarked to Yuki several times now: Tohsaka Rin. Aoko is basically a Rin-clone, perhaps not in looks but yes in behavior and personality. The way Aoko talks, the way she interacts with Soujuurou, the way she speaks of herself, her family, and the greater wizarding world...

So it's interesting to see Nasu declare something like this when:
  • it suits Aozaki Aoko the Rinfacesoul so well, as well as justifying to readers that yes, Aoko x Soujuurou is meant to be~
  • it doesn't seem to fit shota-chaser Adult Aozaki Aoko at all ^^;
Still. Huh. I wonder what fanart we could expect out of this. Would Aoko's preferred Servant be someone like Orion? Or maybe Archer Heracles? What about the classic Iskandar? Hm.

Anyway, at the end of the day, Aoko declaring "I LIKE MUSCLE GUYS! >o" coming directly after the reveal of Shizuki Soujuurou's muscly ripped body is about as declarative as these things come. =p What a fickle god. One minute he's declaring that they have absolutely "no chemistry" together ... the next minute he's declaring things like this. And it isn't just Aoko who's got feelings for Soujuurou ...

Soujuurou's feelings: Soujuurou declares to the boys that he is attracted to girls and that he does have "the same" thoughts and feelings that other boys his age do. This is of course then obfuscated for cheap laughs ... But if you watch closely, you'll notice that throughout the conversation, Soujuurou's interest is piqued whenever the conversation turns to Aoko; and he becomes strangely... maybe not "possessive", but certainly some variant on the word whenever Kinomi details his past attempts at flirting with Aoko.

I dunno. This is all such a mess. Hope doesn't seem dead for Soujuurou being aromantic, either, as Tobimaru seems to conclude after some question-and-answering that he and Kinomi were wrong, Soujuurou isn't "just like other guys", Soujuurou's idea of liking Aoko and other guys' idea of liking Aoko are completely different things.

Maybe Soujuurou is just a fiery lil' kitty who is fiercely defensive of his mama/master. >o :'3


Kinomi's attempt: So what did Kinomi exactly say or do? Well... First it's implied that, at the high school entrance ceremony, Kinomi went up to Aoko to flirt with her and subconsciously reached for her boob and squeezed it. O_o That's obviously crossing a few boundaries that, surprise surprise, is played for light laughs here, "Oh, poor Kinomi! ", hahaha, I'll bet Aoko fucked you up real good. (And sure enough, it's explained that she delivered a kick to his jaw so powerful it knocked him out -- and, in a possible reference to Tsukihime, it's implied that Aoko literally almost killed him.)

But then we get the quote. o_o lol ^^; Because Soujuurou wants to know -- what did Kinomi say to her, exactly?

"Wow, your knockers are HUGE!"


Moving right along ...


Tea or Coffee: We learn an interesting bit of character lore here that could possibly be symbolic. Alice Kuonji is well-established as a tea drinker by this point in the game. This chapter section in particular establishes that Alice's routine, ideally, is to have tea at seven different points in the day. While this discussion is happening, we learn from Aoko that she used to be a coffee drinker like her sister, but after she met Alice she became a black tea person. Huh. So it goes:
  • Alice: black tea
  • Touko: coffee
  • Aoko: was coffee, is now black tea
I don't want to read into this too far and I'm not sure what exactly Nasu would even be trying to say with this other than that Alice has had a profound impact on Aoko's personhood. But it is interesting food for thought hidden in an innocuous fluffy little scene about beverage preferences.

Soujuurou's assessment: Soujuurou wants to learn more about Ploys. What they are, how they work. Alice seems reluctant (perhaps because she views it as a waste of time since Soujuurou's memories are soon to be erased?), but Aoko is eager to explain as best as she can to Soujuurou how Ploy Kickshaws work.

And then we get this amazing bit of script.
Alice: "I knew this would happen. Shizuki-kun probably has the worst memory in the universe."
She almost said he was better off dead, but took a deep breath to avoid being hurtful.

Aoko: "I'm sorry, Alice. I feel for you on this one. I've no idea how he can reduce our magecraft down to 'amazingly convenient.' If any other mage heard that, they'd faint from the pure insult of it."
Aoko was exasperated; she also felt some measure of regret. She should have realized this would be the outcome.

Soujuurou: "That's not true at all. I can tell the difference between your magecraft. Aozaki just breaks stuff. Alice makes things to break stuff with. Therefore, Alice is a little more productive."
Not too much else to say here. I just wanted to share that I found this moment quite precious and funny, and from here I feel like the subchapter really picks up.


The whiteboard: This was an... interesting development. *shrug* I don't really understand how Soujuurou gets away with telling Alice what to do, but I guess it boils down to "She knows he has the moral high ground" and "She's falling for him fast and hard." =p ^^; Still. Soujuurou brings home a whiteboard, identifies four primary chores, and tells the girls that he will be dividing the chores amongst the three of them and that from now on everyone has to pitch in equally and take turns.
Alice: "...I just hope he doesn't add any new chores to the list."
She would come to regret ever saying those words.
What an unexpectedly exciting cliffhanger. ^_^; lol I'm genuinely curious to see what could be meant by this.

More bonus chapters: So, last time I mentioned that we had two bonus chapters -- one was part of Chapter 08, "Whiteboard", while the other is its own stand-alone chapter. This is the one that Nasu identifies as the official Chapter 8.5, and it's called "The Carnegie Case".

But upon completion of "Whiteboard", a new bonus chapter appears on the bookshelf -- for the first time ever, we have a gap in between books, and a rather sizeable one at that. Labeled "Extra", this bonus chapter is called "The Wonderful World of Ploys". It contains two subchapters, "The Wonderful World of Ploys 1" and "The Wonderful World of Ploys 2". The chapters, they're multiplying! @_@

I think my gameplan is going to be to go ahead and read Chapter 8.5 next ... and then make a judgment call on whether I think I'm meant to proceed to Chapter 9 next or if I'm meant to read The Wonderful World of Ploys next. I don't want the latter to spoil end-game reveals and content, but I also feel like Nasu is (hopefully!) kind enough and smart enough to realize this risk and not allow it to happen, i.e. if any end-game ploys are yet to be revealed, they won't be discussed in subchapters 1 or 2, but instead in a later subchapter 3 or 4 that I have yet to unlock. We'll see. *shrug*
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Old 02-17-2023, 08:25 PM   #27
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Chapter 8.5: The Carnegie Case

Spoiler: show
This post has been delayed by several weeks. Apologies! This was actually a very cute side story -- probably objectively "the best side story in the game" so far, but "Martha" still takes 1st place for me personally and this chapter really doesn't come into its own until the final few acts. I'm still not entirely certain why it's called the "Carnegie Case", although I assume had something to do with pyramid schemes? 🤷


Soujuurou's side job: So our chapter begins with Aoko and Alice questioning how Soujuurou is coming home with fat wads of cash day in and day out. Concerned that Soujuurou may have been swept up in some sort of MLM scheme, Aoko investigates (more on that later!). But in the end, we discover, Soujuurou really has been doing something innocent and legal -- he's been keeping a rich old lady company. ='3 I know I'm sort of taking the chapter backwards in a sense, but I thought that this was a cute twist.


Soujuurou has a line here that is featured in at least one of the promotional trailers. I think it's a rather melancholic, "!"-ing line, one which definitely activates my Spidey Senses as far as hidden meaning or symbolic significance go:
You know, sometimes this town catches me off guard.
Everyone looks so happy and blessed, but if you look hard enough you start to see that's not always the case. It's like the entire town is fooling me.
Hmm...


Aoko vs. the Light of Truth: So this was very cute also. I think as side stories go, it is the perfect chapter at exploring who Aozaki Aoko is. What are her beliefs, what are her convictions, what are her strengths, what are her weaknesses ... It's all on full, glorious display here. When Aoko finds out that Soujuurou isn't here and he isn't on their roster, that's probably the best part of the entire side story. Poor Aoko. ^^; But as she notes, she still did a net good, taking out a predatory business operation that was preying on Misaki City's feeblest and most vulnerable.


The Tsukiji Group: So in this chapter, we learn a surprising bit about a side character's backstory. =o Meet Tsukiji Tobimaru, Student Council Vice President, Shizuki Soujuurou bodyguard, and heir apparent to the Tsukiji Group. We learn that Tobimaru's grandfather married into the Tsukiji clan, built them into the economic force that they are today, and that the current intra-clan political climate is such that Tobimaru's father resents his own son for being whom Grandfather will likely designate his heir.

Glimpses into the muggle side characters' lives like this one are interesting if nothing else. We didn't get too deep of a look into (say) Arihiko's or Taiga's lives in Tsukihime and Fate/stay night, respectively, but the expanded Fate universe for the latter and TsukiRe for the former have given opportunities to build these characters up from simple background fauna into fully-realized human beings with their own hopes, dreams, and motivations in this world filled with magic and sorcery. While I'm certainly not here for Tsukiji Tobimaru and his difficult life as the heir apparent to Misaki City's karei naru ichizoku , I can't say I exactly object to detours like this either. It's a fun opportunity to see how muggle characters who lead their own larger-than-life lives interweave with the larger-than-life mages, wizards, and witches of Type-Moon's tales. Kiritsugu developed friendships with Taiga's grandfather and Issei's father. Waver found family in Glen and Martha Mackenzie. I like that we get to see a glimpse at the lives of these children-turning-young-adults who were a part of Aoko's formative youth. Perhaps we'll see them again some day.


Alice & Bakery Ojii-chan: Speaking of character development, there is this other little bit with Alice and the founder of KitsyLand, the amusement park we saw in Chapter 05. Tobimaru and Alice apparently know one another through rich people social circles, although Tobimaru is quick to internally note for us that the Kuonji family is on a completely different level of power and influence than the Tsukijis. Alice likewise also apparently knows "Bakery Ojii-chan", which is what I am calling him since I have sadly forgotten his name, not noted it down, and it's difficult to Google. ^^; ;( And Bakery Ojii-chan knows Tobimaru and the Tsukiji family. It's a small little world and they're all players in it. =') Not too much else to say here though. ^^;


Sister Yuika: She's back! ='D For a short, glorious moment, she's back onscreen for the first time since Chapter 1.5.4! It's been a while! This was something I had written about for my next post, which is a sort of general thoughts & reactions post as we're nearing the game's final stretch(?), and I'm happy to see that Yuika's appearance has rendered that criticism moot but disappointed that she still barely features ^_^; and does most of her "influencing" offscreen.


Alice's Dinner Order: When Alice looked [pictured above] at the mention of Soujuurou intending to give all of the money back to the old lady, I thought where this was going was that Alice was going to admit to having already spent some or all of it. ^^; The fact that she simply ordered takeout for the three of them came to me as something of a relief! Although to Aoko and Soujuurou it was still a massive "uh oh" as they scrambled to figure out who was going to pay for it. ^^;


Translation: There was a little mo' of translation that stood out at me earlier in Chapter 08 that I had thought to share with you guys, relating to the conversation earlier about the game's TL. I opted not to share it in the end, but feel like I should now because of a new bit o' TL in Chapter 8.5 that I have to share with you guys. XD (Spoiler tagging for length and quasi-off topicness.)

Spoiler: show
Chapter 08's TL moment: There's a section during the outdoors scene early on where one of the characters, I believe it was Tobimaru, describes somebody else as "想像出来ない金持ち" souzou dekinai kanemochi. Translated by me, this would be "[They're] so rich you can't [even] imagine [how rich they are]." My specific line of choice, matching what they said with how I personally talk, would probably be "They're so rich you can't even imagine." souzou, an image or picture in your mind. dekinai, "cannot [do]". kanemochi, rich. "Rich to the level that you can't picture it in your head." There's loads of ways to translate simple language, and the way our team opted for was...:
They're filthy rich, okay?
It's generally accurate. Some might even say it's better than what I offered -- it makes an attempt to account for the speaker's station, for his mannerisms and social class, as well for his current mental state and attitude. But it also kinda swerves around the original in an unnecessary way. ^^; We've lost the idea of souzou dekinai and veered into kegarawashii hodo "so [blank] it's disgusting/filthy", and we didn't have to. Souzou dekinai translates cleanly into native English, we share the exact same expression with the Japanese, there's no need to approximate it in this instance.

Iunno. *shrug* Translation is hard. There's always a critic ... XD >.>; Hats off again to the TL team -- I think they've generally done a great job with this script so far. I'm frequently impressed by their fluid choices. I also want to say hats off to whoever proofread Chapter 08 as, unlike its predecessor, this one was a welcome return to professional form with nary a grammatical error. (That or I've gotten used to them by now, either/or. >.>; It's just that grammatical errors if there were any didn't really jump out at me in Chapter 08.)

Chapter 8.5's TL moment: Okay. XD So there's a scene in this chapter where Tobimaru, thinking about his family situation, recalls a conversation -- real or imagined, I forget -- in which a foreign investor (whom he suspects of harboring intentions to take over the Tsukiji family business) suggests to Tobimaru's father that the two families ought to pair the foreign family's daughter with Tobimaru to bring their two families together. Tobimaru's less than thrilled with this, and remarks:
そもそも金髪女の相手なんざ願い下げだぜ。向こうで海兵相手尻振ってろってんだ
Somosomo kinpatsu onna nanza negaisage da ze. Mukou de kaihei aite shiri futtero ttenda

My literal TL: In the first place, a blonde woman for a partner, I'm gonna have to turn down that offer. I'm saying she can go and shake her ass for some sailors beyond.
My casual TL: I ain't interested in a blonde for a wife in the first place. Tell her to go shake her ass for some sailors over there.
Their TL: And I'm not interested in blondes, anyway. She can take her skanky, money-grubbing hands elsewhere. I'll pass.
Once again, we see what I've been trying to tell you about. ^_^; The translation on offer here is emotionally accurate -- it gets the same point across as the original script does -- but it is technically something of a rewrite with how it deletes the sailors, substitutes out "tell her to shake her ass" for calling her "skanky", adds "money-grubbing" ... I honestly prefer their first sentence to my own (Casual) first one, it's really good! It's the second one where I feel like we went a bridge too far and just ... lost the specifics of the original needlessly? ^^; *shrug* But it's also more professionally edited than mine, it reads like more natural English, which should be the goal with any translation, so ... 🤷

As with the one above, I want to re-emphasize that on the whole the English language team's translation does not suffer these sorts of problems. They stand out (in particular like this one) precisely because of how both colorful and yet different the original dialogue is to what was offered in translation. Generally, the team does very well -- much better than I feel like I could do -- and I want to give them that credit.
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Old 02-17-2023, 09:25 PM   #28
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Intermission

As we near the two-thirds completion mark of the game, I thought I would take this time to discuss some things. Some general impressions, some unanswered questions ...

Spoiler: show


Unanswered Questions

First off, a bunch of questions that remain unanswered as of this point in the game. I'm not seeking answers from anyone reading this post. If you do know or suspect the answers, just consider each of the following questions to have been rhetorically presented for the time being. Why share them at all then, you may ask? I just thought it'd be fun, both for my future self and for anyone else in the future who is reading this thread while playing the game for the first time, to see what were the questions I was considering and what were the questions I was not considering; what were the hypotheses I had in mind for various questions; so on and so forth.

Question #1: Who or what is Shizuki Soujuurou? I'll go ahead and lump all of Soujuurou's mysteries in together here. What is the deal with his neck bandages? What is up with his high tolerance/stamina? What's the deal with his lean, super-muscular body? What about those arm scars? What about his brain? His memory, his ability or inability to learn, his way of thinking, his way of interpreting information archived in his brain... There's a lot we still don't know about Shizuki Soujuurou, and Nasu seems intent on keeping it closely guarded until the end of the game, if we're even so lucky to get it all answered then.

The hypotheses we've playfully put forward so far are:
  1. Soujuurou is the soul of the kitten from the prologue of the game reincarnated into a human body. This serves to explain his connection with Aoko. It explains some of his more "feline" behaviors. It potentially explains both the bandages around his neck (near decapitation as a kitten) and the scars on his left arm (deep wounds as a kitten). It may explain why Soujuurou is seen walking everywhere, even despite being a delivery boy who would greatly benefit from riding a moped. (An aversion to vehicular motors and engines, perhaps.) It could explain his startling ignorance, both academic and "worldsmarts", when it comes to the human world. But it also feels too easy. If it ends up being correct, this is a BokuMachi situation all over again. I don't think it's correct, though. I think it's a red herring.
  2. Soujuurou is a robot. This hypothesis, introduced by Doppel, has gotten at least one possible nod in a recent chapter. While the term "robot" can be used broadly, I will specify a few related hypotheses below as well. Things that support the robot hypothesis include: (1) Soujuurou's possible lack of need for real sleep. He sometimes says he's going to sleep as he retires to his bedroom, but we never actually see him fall asleep or wake up. The one time we've known Soujuurou to be unconscious was due to blunt force trauma to the head; (2) Soujuurou's minimal food intake, especially for someone who seemingly expends as many calories as he does; (3) various of Soujuurou's superhuman feats (like the time he survived a 100-foot fall with only a magic egg a meter long to break his fall).
  3. Soujuurou is a homunculus. In the traditional Type-Moon sense; see "Einzbern homunculi" for comparison. Essentially, Soujuurou is a man-made person who, per Nasu's word-of-god arguments, lacks a soul. This could help to explain his childlike innocence (he looks 16 but in reality he's only 2 to 3 years old) coupled with his teen-like behaviors elsewhere (this is how T-M homunculi work).
  4. Soujuurou is [see spoiler box below]. This hypothesis builds off of knowledge not yet revealed and is a legitimate spoiler for anyone playing the game for the first time. Inside the first spoiler box, I'll say what you'll need to know to safely read the hypothesis; I'll then place the actual hypothesis inside of the second spoiler box.
Spoiler: show
In order to safely read this hypothesis, you would need to know the identity of the enemy magus.

Spoiler: show
Soujuurou may be a puppet. Specifically, a puppet fashioned by Aozaki Touko. This too can explain Soujuurou's relevance to the story. It's possible that he is the soul of the kitten, yes, but not reincarnated into a human body, no -- affixed to a doll of Touko's. What looked like failure in the prologue was in fact masked success -- Touko had secretly(?) successfully affixed the kitten's soul to one of her dolls. From there, it's the usual Touko magic of soul transference. It's entirely believable that Soujuurou's current body is the Mark 2 or the Mark 3 of doll-bodies that Touko has been providing to the kitten's soul. Perhaps while Touko was away on business, the doll awoke from slumber, moseyed on down the mountain, and assumed life in Misaki City? Perhaps it's the other way around, and Touko sent Soujuurou into Misaki City specifically to fuck with Aoko on any number of levels.

While it remains unclear at this time who or what exactly Soujuurou is, I am optimistic that we are going to find out before the game's over.

Question #2: Who is the enemy magus? This I already know the answer to, so all I really wanted to say here is, we're two-thirds of the way into the story and the mystery assailant still has yet to be revealed. I would be curious to know what a first-timer's thoughts or predictions here are.

Question #3: When will we meet the remaining characters on the collector's box art? We still have yet to formally meet the lady in the green dress, the glasses-wearing Church guy, or the slightly crazed-looking boy with the blond hair and green eyes.

Question #4: When are we going to see the two Church ladies again? The blind sister and the passerby in the peach-colored blouse, neither character has ever shown up again*. The game went out of its way in an early scene to argue that Soujuurou and Aoko will both be "volunteering" at the Church as a part-time gig, yet we've never seen any evidence of this ever again. Nothing Soujuurou's said, nothing he's been shown doing... *shrug* *Update: I wrote this post up originally before completing Chapter 8.5 and, what do you know, Sister Yuika shows up at the very end of it to rough some religious cult scam artists up and show them the true power of the Lord. She still hasn't done too much though, so the bulk of this paragraph still mostly stands. Still, though! Good to see the church ladies haven't been completely forgotten!

Question #5: Is Alice Kuonji going to survive this? Alice is a character we've not seen nor heard from again in any media outside of Mahoutsukai no Yoru. That doesn't necessarily mean that she's dead or incapacitated, but I am curious.

Question #6: Is Shizuki Soujuurou going to survive this? Same exact question for Soujuurou.

Question #7: By the end of this game, how closely will Aozaki Aoko resemble her future Tsukihime self in personality? At this rate, I am expecting ~0%. Alright, maybe "0%" is an exaggeration, especially after "The Carnegie Case" where Aoko exhibited some behaviors that are both in character for her Mahoyo and Tsukihime selves. But I do now think that a lot of her major personality shifts will occur offscreen in between titles. I had originally thought that maybe this game would end with her being 30%-50% of the way there, but as of where we are right now, I'm expecting Aoko's personality at the end of this game to be a near-exact match to her personality at the start of it. Really, about the only thing that I expect that will be changed between beginning and end is her philosophy on killing. As I've stated previously, I expect that Aozaki Aoko will adopt Shizuki Soujuurou's creed that "killing people is wrong". We've already gotten a recent confirmation that Aoko has not once killed a person yet, despite several attempts attested by Alice.

Question #8: To what degree are we going to explore the Fifth Magic in this game? I believe we've seen it the one time at the amusement park, although that's speculation until otherwise confirmed. The question now is, how many times are we going to see it again before Game 1's up?; and how deeply are we gonna go into an explanation of what it is and how it works?

Question #9: Are there going to be any in-game decisions to be made? I know going back to this game's development Nasu had made it abundantly clear that this game would feature at least far fewer decisions to be made by the player than Tsukihime or Fate/stay night had. But those games' choices weren't just about docking you onto one of the game's five (Tsuki) or three (FSN) heroine paths. Most of the choices you made in those games were the difference between life and death for the protagonist. Mahoyo is clearly different from its predecessors. And I have gone into Mahoyo expecting to make absolutely zero choices. But as I near the game's conclusion, I find myself wondering: "Is that correct? Are there really no choices to be made in this game?" Avoiding looking it back up for now, but assuming that there really are no choices. I'm mostly just including this one as a "It's not over 'til the fat lady sings" kind of an open question. ='3 =p



General Impressions

Now for some general impressions.

The story: So far, it's been fine. I'm not as intrigued by it as I am by Tsukihime's or Fate/stay night's, but so far it's been a perfectly fine lil' novel to read through. I don't read novels particularly frequently, so for me it's also a refreshing experience in and of itself getting to read something that "feels like a book" , because it is a book!, rather than something that feels like a mobile game, a home console video game, a manga, or cinema or television. If the story has been slightly boring to me -- "boring"'s not really the right word -- I think its main two problems have been (1) my poor pacing and (2) Nasu's insistence on keeping all of the things secret until the very end. The latter is silly but is perhaps something he mistakenly picked up from Urobuchi Gen, whose Fate/Zero kept people alive and secrets secret a lot longer than Nasu's Fate/stay night did. (But Gen still had people die and the plot evolve, whereas Nasu seems terrified to move things forward in Mahoyo and keeps stalling for time with various cute but mundane side stories. ='>)

But as for my pacing, that's entirely on me. If I weren't the way that I am with these posts, and if I weren't self-obligated to write these posts in the first place, I'd probably have finished the books weeks ago. And a faster reader would have finished it in less than four days, easy. I'd heard it said before we started reading that this book has an estimated 35 hour clear time, and if that's accurate then I think a fairly typical VN reader would have probably devoured it with their available time outside of work, sleep, and self-care activities in just about four to five days. Give them the benefit of a Saturday and a Sunday where they don't even have to go into work and getting the book read in four days seems super doable for most people.

But I'm not most people, and I've made progress at a snail's pace. We started playing on December 24, 2022, so ... it's been 55 days since I started playing, and I'm still only two-thirds of the way through. That probably has just as much to do with my perception of the "delayed reveals" and "sluggish pace" as anything Nasu is doing ... ^^; Still, I'm enjoying it so far. =) Don't take anything I've said here to mean that I am bored with the book. Not really. It's immensely more entertaining to read than most of Fate/Grand Order's offerings, and I've read hundreds of hours of those stories, so... *shrug* =') It's honestly to the point where TsukiRe and Mahoyo have ruined me on FGO. ^_^; I went without reading any new FGO stories from November all the way until last weekend. Whenever I'm faced with the prospect of either getting to read FGO or else using FGO's Skip button to skip the story, jump straight to the combat, and then hopefully hop over to Mahoyo, consistently I've chosen the latter these past 55 days. It's just ... despite making such a choice, I still don't ultimately read much if at all on any given day. It's a me problem, not a Mahoyo problem. *shrug*

Characters: These characters are some of the realest Nasu has written to date. Only three of the characters so far feel larger than life, and that's Aoko, Alice, and Soujuurou, our two witches and one "mountain man". Fate/stay night, by contrast, by way of seven Masters, seven Servants, and various supporting characters had a cast of colorful personalities some twenty-plus strong. Tsukihime has the main six at a minimum. FGO, Fate/Zero, and other Fate-based properties lean more heavily towards larger casts of loud, vibrant characters. But Mahoyo is more modest. You get your Tsukiji Tobimarus, you get your Kinomi Housukes, you get your...

None of the characters so far is super beloved by me. I don't really have anyone in this game who has captured my heart as thoroughly as Type-Moon Okita Souji has, nor does anyone here stack up well against long-time favorites like Kohaku, Arcueid, Illyasviel, or Asagami Fujino. But even newer characters like Sherlock Holmes and Goredolf Musik are beloved by me and thousands of other fans, whereas Alice, Soujuurou, and Young Aoko so far are pleasant enough but not yet anywhere near to where I'd want to own a Nendoroid of one of them, collect lots of fanart of them, etc. They're fine. =) But they're just fine. So we'll see. We'll see what happens by the time we've reached the end.

Music: While not as impressive as TsukiRe's soundtrack, Mahoyo has quite a few gems. Definitely my favorite piece so far remains "Kettou/One-on-One", localized here as "Duel/One-on-One". This is the song that played when it was Aoko vs. the Aoko puppet inside the house of mirrors. It's the most exciting or second most exciting scene the game has had so far (the other one of course being the three-way showdown with Flat Snark, Aoko, and the crawling Aoko puppet), and both scene and track alike are perhaps the closest thing that Mahoyo has to offer to counter Fate/stay night's "Emiya" and the scenes in which it plays. Yuki's been a big fan of Erik Satie's Gymnopedie that has been repurposed in Mahoyo as "Afternoon Nap", the song reflecting the calm and peaceful days spent at the Kuonji mansion. As classical borrowings go, I've been a bigger fan of "Kenban wa Odoru" a.k.a. "Dance of the Piano Keys" personally, which is just Franz Liszt's Liebesträume No.3 by a custom name. ^^; My favorite two overall melodies in the game at this time likely remain the opening theme song and then the ending theme song that we've not yet heard, "Hoshi ga Matataku Konna Yoru ni", "The Stars Twinkle on a Night Like This". We have heard its music box version, discussed previously in the Chapter 5-2 post. Much love. =>

Visuals & Special Effects: I remain very surprised by just how good of a visual novel this product is on a technical level. I've said this before as well, but will say it again: the game passes for an anime. It's like "holding an anime in the palms of your hands." An anime whose pacing you direct, but an anime nonetheless. They do a remarkable job with a few simple XY-plane repositioning commands -- "animations", in their simplest form -- to make it look like people leap or run, to make it look like forks or chopsticks clash like weaponry in the fight for the best hotpot ingredients... Every character has dozens of unique facial animations, allowing for a wealth of pinpoint-precision expressivity at any given moment in time. Alternate fuzzy and sharp versions of each texture are used to emulate zoom focus. Alternate redrawings of the same scenery are used to emulate the progression of the Sun or the Moon in the sky. It's all relatively simple stuff (as compared with an animated motion picture) but it's used so well that the book manages to elevate itself beyond popsicle-stick puppetshow and into the realm of television anime. It's impressive.

I wish we had this level of visual storytelling in FGO. And I'm glad to see it did carry over into TsukiRe, although ... not quite as animated as Mahoyo has been. Mahoyo is very proud of its engine and only too happy to show it off. =')

Themes & Symbols: I had more to say on this early on. Today, I don't know that I have too much to report on as far as themes or symbols go in Mahoyo. ^_^; Like I've said before, I'm a "meat and potatoes" plot and characters kinda guy. I don't tend to notice theming unless it's either very personally relevant or else very hit-you-over-the-head-with-a-stick obvious. I will try to watch for anything in the coming chapters. Hopefully things become clearer on this front once we finally have a direct confrontation between the enemy magus and Aoko, which I assume we're going to get this title.

Just to throw thoughts out there for the sake of discussion, possible themes and symbols would include:
  • purity, as it relates to Soujuurou in just about every facet of his character
    • purity of heart/soul/intent/will
    • purity of mind/brain/knowledge/memory
    • purity of muscle/body
    • the white neck bandages and the white dog collar, white being a color associated with purity
  • Aoko's current hair color, which is not yet her iconic fiery red
  • the color blue 🤷 (haven't really noticed any theming with this yet)
  • the color red 🤷 (same)
  • Alice being a master of nursery rhyme magic, and these idyllic days at the Kuonji mansion being "like a fairy tale" for young Aoko (she may not feel that way about it right now , but one day she will! ='3)
  • the tea-vs-coffee symbolism we discussed briefly before, how Aoko was a coffee drinker like Touko but now she's a tea drinker like Alice
I dunno. Not the strongest list. ^^; I tried. 😔
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Old 03-03-2023, 08:31 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
None of the characters so far is super beloved by me. I don't really have anyone in this game who has captured my heart as thoroughly as Type-Moon Okita Souji has, nor does anyone here stack up well against long-time favorites like Kohaku, Arcueid, Illyasviel, or Asagami Fujino. But even newer characters like Sherlock Holmes and Goredolf Musik are beloved by me and thousands of other fans, whereas Alice, Soujuurou, and Young Aoko so far are pleasant enough but not yet anywhere near to where I'd want to own a Nendoroid of one of them, collect lots of fanart of them, etc. They're fine. =) But they're just fine. So we'll see. We'll see what happens by the time we've reached the end.
I'd add that while the characters aren't boring, I do feel like we've seen them before in different forms throughout TM media. What opened up Fate Zero was Butcher's willingness to write non-Nasu style characters. I'm sure you've heard the story of Nasu's proto-Iskander who was a modest build bishie in the vein of Cu and Gilgamesh, with a far less outsized personality.

I also got this sensation reading the Jun Maeda stuff. Going from Air to Kanon to Little Busters to Angel Beats and Charlotte, there was a strong sense of deja vu and reincarnation with some characters.
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Old 03-05-2023, 07:57 PM   #30
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The Wonderful World of Ploys 1 & 2

Type-Moon's visual novels have each featured a learning corner where players can enjoy cute cutscenes and learn a little more about the lore of the Type-Moon universe. In Tsukihime, there was a classroom segment where Ciel took on the mantle of a teacher. Fate/stay night famously had the Tiger Dojo; there, players were treated to cute, humorous scenes with Fujimura Taiga and her "disciple" Illyasviel von Einzbern. And in the 2021 Tsukihime remake, Oshiete, Ciel-sensei! was re-imagined with a new accompanying partner -- Neco Arc!

Mahoyo has its own version of this feature -- The Wonderful World of Ploys! Players unlock access to this shortly after completing Chapter 8. Unlike its predecessors, The Wonderful World of Ploys does not list all of the bad endings you would have encountered while playing the game. And this is because, well... from what I can tell, Mahoyo doesn't have any bad endings for you to unlock. It may have a grand, overall "bad ending" that results in a game over, that I don't know yet, but on the whole Mahoyo is not the choose-your-own adventure book that Tsukihime and Fate/stay night were.

So what does The Wonderful World of Ploys feature? Read on to find out!

Spoiler: show
Nasu has decided to use this corner of the game to nominally do one thing while in practice doing another. These are:
  • nominally, to flesh out esoteric aspects of the game
  • practically, to entertain readers with some cute, amusing interactions between Robin and Alice
It's basically all of the cuteness and humor of the Tiger Dojo with little in the way of the education.


I say "little in the way of education" because -- as Alice herself points out several times -- little of what's presented here has not already been explained in the main story proper. It's just that Nasu realized (or must have been told) that his make-believe terminology was starting to get a bit overwhelming and that players could benefit from some setting straight all in the same, small little spot. So in the span of less than five minutes, he sets out to explain what a familiar is and what the Venn diagram looks like between your average familiar and a familiar like Robin; and then, in a second five minute span, he explains the Venn diagram between familiars and ploys (which, again, Robin is such a ploy) and then explains what is separately meant by "kickshaw" and what bringing the two words, "ploy" and "kickshaw", together signifies in this universe.

I won't lie -- I still don't have a great grasp on it ^_^; since it's a lot of technobabble (or the fantasy equivalent of that term). It's the sort of thing that makes sense while I'm reading it but logarithmically decays as I spend time away from it.


The main benefit so far of these two sections was seeing cute little moments with Robin and Alice. Whether it's Alice attacking Robin or Alice sliding down a preschool playground slide while dressed like a stereotypical Japanese preschooler, the segments solicit a lot of "awwww =>"s, laughs, and smiles.

Really not much else to say here! ^_^; Each segment was about five minutes long (with, admittedly, me kinda speed-reading through most of them, eager to move on to Chapter 9!), and the only real lore nugget we received is an answer to the question, "Why all the Alice in Wonderland theming?" Nasu had already touched on this in the main story, if I recall correctly, but basically Alice's mother was a big fan of Lewis Carroll's. As such, she developed ploys based on his works (these are the ploys that Alice has since been shown using in Mahoyo) and named her own daughter after the protagonist of Carroll's books.
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Old 03-09-2023, 08:26 PM   #31
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Chapter 09: SCARRED, SCAR RED.

Spoiler: show

The Orange Witch: IT'S TOUKO! ^_^ She's finally here! \o/

But, uh ... it's not all gumdrops and sunshine, is it? ^^; =( Where in Kara no Kyoukai Touko plays the part of a surrogate aunt who watches over several children and warms audiences' hearts, here she plays the part of an enigmatic rival hellbent on her own sister's destruction. I say "enigmatic" because, as we see by chapter's end, no one really knows at this stage what Touko's real motivations are. Soujuurou offers up hypotheses that will resonate with readers but which Aoko shoots down; and then Aoko offers up explanations steeped in Nasuverse lore that Soujuurou rejects. It's a simultaneously annoying and admirable bit of writing by Nasu. Annoying because it's rather cowardly and non-commital -- doing it this way allows Nasu to simultaneously explain to a frustrated audience just what the hell is, or might be, going on while at the same time reserving the right to undo it all at a future date should he decide on a better explanation later. Admirable because it just works so very well in-universe, with Soujuurou comfortably concluding that mages just don't see the world the way that normal people do and that Aoko and Alice are hopelessly blind to what's obvious to anyone else looking in; and with Aoko concluding similarly that it is hopeless to get a non-mage like Soujuurou to understand the motivations of a mage like Touko.

I will disclaim here, this post is FILLED with Aozaki Touko information pulled from Kara no Kyoukai! If you haven't seen the Kara no Kyoukai movies and you don't want to possibly be spoiled on Touko details that Mahoyo might reveal later on, then I would suggest revisiting this post after you complete the game. Otherwise, feel free to press on.

I will also disclaim here, this post is MASSIVE! You might want to take your time with it. Originally I planned to possibly break it up by subchapters, but there were two problems with that. First, my theming in this thread has been to always stick with Nasu's official names for chapters and subchapters, and well... there's no way around spoiling Touko's arrival with a subchapter title like "The Elder Sister Returns"! ^^; Second, as I started writing this post up, I found myself frustrated by having to discuss things in presentation order, not being allowed to take things more topically and make references upstream to things revealed further downstream. I ended up following my heart and have no regrets, but apologize to those of you who are intimidated by long, sprawly tl;drs in need of editing. ^^; Hopefully you'll stick with me and find plenty that inspires conversation. 😔


Red & Orange: The chapter opens with a title card difference between the original and the re-release. Or perhaps it's between the Japanese script and the English one, I'm not entirely sure. What I do know is, while all versions title Chapter 09 "SCARRED, SCAR RED.", once you actually begin the chapter and it stylishly presents you with its name again in-chapter, there is a difference:
  • 2022 English: 9 ​ SCARRED, SCAR RED.
  • 2012 Japanese: 9 ​ みかん色の魔法使い
The Japanese title reads Mikan-iro no Mahoutsukai or "The Mandarin[color] Witch". This is a direct reference to Aozaki Touko. The English title likewise is a reference to Touko (source: Type-Moon Wiki):
She hates being called "Scarred Red" (傷んだ赤, Itanda Aka, "Disgraced Scarlet" in the English localization), as it reminds her that although she wanted the colored title of Blue similar to her family name, she instead ended up with the colored title of Red. The nickname implies that her given name of "orange" is merely a tainted color of her title of red, a pure primary color. She made a personal rule that whomever calls her that nickname would end up with a death sentence.
In Type-Moon lore, Touko is associated both with the colors Red and Orange. Red is Touko's title. Orange is in Touko's name -- the tou in Touko, 橙, represents not the mandarin nor the sweet orange but the bitter orange. Thus, you will alternately find people who may refer to her (positively or negatively) by either of these two color terms.

This comes up rather memorably in the fifth Kara no Kyoukai movie where Cornelius Alba, unable to suppress his bitter jealousy and resentment toward Touko any longer, refers to her by this forbidden nickname. (Technically he calls her a 傷んだ赤色とまで言われた女狐 Itanda Sekisho to made megitsune "a vixen who was even called Scarred Red", same idea.) This in turn drives Touko to murder him as she will not allow anyone to cross that line.


The setup: While it's a narrative arrangement at least as old as Snow White & the Seven Dwarfs (when the wicked queen, disguised as an old hag, descends on the dwarves' cottage while the dwarves are away mining and Snow White's housesitting all alone), I absolutely love what Nasu did here with Touko's arrival at the Kuonji mansion:
  • how Touko descends on the house when Aoko is away, Alice is away, and Soujuurou is not away. How this very much resembles the thing in fairy tales, or just about any cautionary tale to small children, really, about how children are not to answer the door when they are home alone, i.e. when Mommy and Daddy are both away, and someone presents at the front door asking to see them, to be let inside, etc.
  • how the moment the girls let their guard down re: Soujuurou's safety, the witch strikes
  • how Touko presents completely charmingly and innocently
  • how, unrelated to defense of the house, the girls originally didn't want to leave Soujuurou home alone to housesit, but they ended up doing it out of love and/or respect for him -- they didn't want the tickets that he had purchased with his hard working money to go to waste, they didn't want to snub his kindness, and (at least on Alice's part) they wanted to trust Soujuurou with house-sitting duty
  • how the one time, the first time, Alice trusts Soujuurou with house-sitting duty, he proverbially "burns the place down" by letting a powerful witch into her workshop and having free reign of the entire estate
  • how Alice and Aoko are physically far away -- not even in Misaki City, but neighboring Arisaka City -- and so even by the time that they realize that Soujuurou and the mansion are in danger it is impossible for them to get back quickly enough to rescue him, he's all on his own
  • Touko's disguise, and the moment the disguise is shed
It's all so good, and it's all used so well here. Original? No. Effective? Yes. Exciting? Oh yeah! This was my first real page turner since all the way back in Chapter 5. I was on the edge of my seat the entire time from when Touko arrived to when she left.


The aquarium: For me, the big takeaway here is the scene near the end when Alice is watching the sunfish in the big enclosure. This is another example of surprisingly simple but effective writing out of Mr. Nasu, as there are two levels to the sunfish symbolism here. The first, superficial level is the level that Alice perceives in-universe -- and that's that the sunfish represents Soujuurou. The second, deeper level is what the audience is invited to consider alongside the first interpretation -- and that's that perhaps the sunfish isn't Soujuurou, but rather Alice herself (and mages in general).

First, we need to establish this:
Aoko: I'm proud of you, though, leaving him alone in the house. You're not worried he'll go snooping in the west wing, are you?
Alice: He... can't possibly be that foolish. Besides...
Aoko: It'd save us the trouble if he did?
Alice: ...It's not that. I just don't think he's the type to break his word.
Here, Alice expresses trust in Soujuurou. She has a hard time letting down her barriers. She has a hard time letting anyone get close to her. But she wants to so badly let Soujuurou get closer. =< She is taking what for her is a big, scary risk.


Then, we arrive at the main attraction. Not a dolphin. Not a shark. Not a sea turtle, nor even a land tortoise that Alice had so badly wanted to find. No, what we arrive at is ...
Aoko: Is it a rare fish? ...This looks like the tank they use for all the fish that don't fit anywhere else.

Alice gave a noncommital response.
Just ahead of her gaze was a single shadow.

Aoko: Wow, an ocean sunfish.

Alice remained motionless, unresponsive to Aoko's sarcasm.
She stood in silence, watching the poor little fish, drifting listlessly in the tank where they put the fish that did not fit anywhere else, here at the end of the hall.
To put it lightly, sunfish were not especially pleasant to look at.
When looking at one, it begged the question of what direction evolution wanted to take with it.
It looked like it swam using rudder-like fins on its top and bottom, but lacked the grace of other fish.
To Aoko, its eyes, body, and strange movements made it an awkward creature.
But...

Aoko: Hey, Alice, let's check out the whale shark exhibit over there. It sounds really exciting, don't you think?

Alice, unmoved, fixated on the sunfish.
It clumsily drifted around its tank, occasionally bumping into the glass as it turned.

Alice: Aoko, this little one can't swim well.

Alice extended her finger towards the glass, then retracted it feeling childish.

Aoko: Well, whatever. I suppose sunfish have their own charm.

It did not seem like Alice was going to budge.
Resigning herself, Aoko stayed with Alice while she stared at the cushion-shaped fish.
[...]
Though Aoko seemed taken in by the biological details of the fish, Alice couldn't have cared less.
She was lost in the ebb and flow of emotions between wonder and woe with every clumsy bump of the fish into the glass.
When out of nowhere, she softly spoke...

Alice: About before...
Aoko: Before? When?
Alice: About him. About leaving the house in his care.
Alice proceeds to explain that she has not decided to trust in Soujuurou; rather, she trusts Aoko, and Aoko thinks it's fine letting Soujuurou housesit, so Alice is willing to go with that. She says this... but:
It seemed Alice was challenging her own feelings.
I'll say.
Alice: ...Such a kind face, but so clearly scarred.
It's pretty clear that for Alice, the clumsiness and stupidity of the derpy sunfish reminds her of Soujuurou. However, Alice herself is the one here clumsily bumping her head into aquarium glass while struggling to swim, metaphorically speaking. Societal obligations ... family obligations ... yearnings of the heart ... Alice is trying to navigate the minefield that is being the heiress to the Kuonji family, being a young witch, and being a girl in love. Cloistered her entire life, she is socially maladjusted. Soujuurou makes her feel things she's not felt before and has difficulty understanding or accepting. She can rationalize to herself why their relationship would never work a million different ways -- "He's too stupid", "He's a muggle," "He loves Aoko," "Aoko loves him" -- but at the end of the day none of her rationalizations matter. She loves him. She's fallen in love with him, and she doesn't know what to do.

A clumsy sunfish, trapped in a glass cage.


Tea: This was such a good scene. It's one of those classic scenes where the soon-to-be victim has absolutely no idea what's happening, but the audience knows. Such tension! Watching Touko converse with Soujuurou is like watching a spider encircling its already-ensnared prey. Nasu's writing and Koyama's illustrations are equally great and effective.

Symbolism and theming is out in full force here! I got my wish. :'3 We have a lovely bit of symbolism here with ... the tea cup. Aoko's favorite teacup. First, a few attributes about the teacup:
  • the teacup is blue
    • Aoko's favorite color
    • Aoko's identity color
    • Touko's coveted color
  • the teacup is, if not one of a kind, at the very least expensive, made by a master craftsman, and not easily replaced
    • much like how there's no replacing Soujuurou
    • making it all the more valuable of a target to Touko to steal
  • the teacup is made of porcelain
    • fragile, easily broken
    • all too easy for Touko to say, "If I can't have it, then nobody can" and smash it if she wishes to
The teacup is clearly symbolic here of:
  1. the Aozaki sisters' relationship. Aoko has what Touko wants but is denied. Whenever this happens, Touko takes it away by force. Aoko tells us stories about this happening in their childhood -- she sounds exhaustedly used to it -- stories of Aoko taking a liking to something, anything, and then Touko stealing it or destroying it.
  2. Touko's obsession. Almost identical to the above bullet point but ever so slightly different. The teacup, while expensive, is not necessarily "the best teacup in the history of the world". It's an above-average teacup and Aoko's personal favorite. There are many other teacups like it. ...But none of them are Aoko's teacup. This is symbolic of what Aoko later explains to Soujuurou regarding the two sisters' magical prowess: Aoko is not especially magically gifted, while Touko is a prodigy. Magic, Aoko explains, is special because it can make the impossible possible, but it has a very narrow scope. Magecraft, she explains, is as broad as can be. Touko could become a legendary magus in literally anything (b/c prodigy) ... but she can never have the Fifth Magic. And that drives her crazy. It was her birthright. And Aoko stole it from her. This is how the bitter, jealous, perhaps slightly unhinged Touko sees it. ^^; =(
  3. Soujuurou. Soujuurou is the teacup. He's "Aoko's possession"; and, like the teacup, he is fragile, "easily destroyed".
It isn't just the teacup though. Touko's arrival comes in the same week as Christmas -- the first official week of the season of winter. Nasu specifically notes that "the sun sets early in the winter", an otherwise innocuous bit of padding, one might say, but for the fact that it is the opening line to the scene in which Touko arrives. The sun represents warmth, illumination, safety. The night represents death, darkness, danger. Like a Grim Reaper, Touko arrives at the twilight hour.

When Touko arrives, Soujuurou is sipping on some tea of his own. As the scene will later establish, tea takes on a symbolism here attached to Aoko -- her teacup, her relationship with Soujuurou -- so his taking in the warmth of the tea from within the warm shelter of the Kuonji estate serves to establish his symbolic safety and comfort when Aoko and Alice are with him.

When Soujuurou returns with their tea, Touko requests him to please sit, adding, "I don't like being looked down on." This is clearly as much figurative as it is literal -- where here she instructs Soujuurou not to literally look down on her, generally Aozaki Touko does not suffer others figuratively looking down on her.

There's lots of little moments like these we can deconstruct all day for our high school literature teachers if we like. Suffice it to say, even I noticed them. =')


The big reveal: If there's one thing I would have changed about this chapter, it's when and how Nasu confirmed that the enemy magus is Aozaki Touko. The way he did it was rather awkward imo.
  1. First, he has Alice and Aoko misunderstanding who has sent these 30+ automatons after them. The narrator even points this out for the reader, identifying that Alice and Aoko are so used to classical puppetry theory which holds that the older the puppet parts, the better; and thus, the higher-quality the puppet, the less the supply; and thus, only a supremely wealthy magus could afford to send many automatons out against the girls like this with such reckless abandon.
  2. Then, he has the girls have an epiphany, and they finally figure it out.
  3. Next, we cut back to the mansion, where we find Touko with Soujuurou. Touko still hasn't revealed the truth to Soujuurou.
  4. Finally, Touko reveals the truth to Soujuurou.
This is awkward to me for two reasons. First, there's little reason to have the girls display ignorance (and for the narrator to gush us a history lesson) only to correct that ignorance mere seconds later. It's terribly anti-climactic, and makes the earlier ignorance feel like a complete waste of time. Second, the audience already knows who Touko is and is alredy on tenterhooks suspecting that she might be the enemy magus. Her scene with Soujuurou is consequently incredibly tense. (Even I found it inherently tense, and I already knew she was the culprit! ) Revealing her identity via the girls' epiphany at the train station is just ... blah. The better way to do it, by far, is to have Touko be the one to reveal herself to Soujuurou (or to have Soujuurou be the one to figure it out, either/or). Thus, I would propose a very simple order change to fix this scene:
  1. First, either scrap Alice and Aoko's misunderstanding scene (just don't even have it take place) or else keep it and keep it all the way home. Next.
  2. Cut back to the mansion, where we find Touko with Soujuurou. Touko still hasn't revealed the truth to Soujuurou.
  3. Cut back to the girls, still trying to piece together who their assailant is, and identifying things which the audience -- who has both the train station cards and the mansion cards in hand -- gets to freak out about.
  4. Finally, cut back to the mansion, and have Touko reveal the truth to Soujuurou (or Soujuurou figure it out, either/or). As for the girls, they can either figure it out later or they can have the truth explained to them by Soujuurou when they get home.
It's not a huge deal. I just ... think the current placement of the reveal is super anti-climactic in an otherwise satisfyingly climactic scene. Touko deserves better! =<


The Wandersnatch: I don't have too much to say here other than that I really enjoyed Nasu's analogy with the grenade. Quoting it:
Aoko: You were carrying that thing around this whole time?

Aoko spoke sideways to Alice, making no attempt to hide her disgust.
A beast of the fog.
One of her Great Three Ploys Kickshaw, the Meinsters' Rose Hound: Wandersnatch.
It was a name carrying immense violence and devastation.
Aoko's words stung, since Alice was the one harboring its true form.
The Great Three Ploys wielded terrifyingly powerful curses.
It was one thing to carry it around for self-defense, but keeping it a secret from her companion did not amuse Aoko in the slightest.
It was like going out to eat with a grenade in your pocket.
This is a great simile -- simple and effective. It immediately tells me all I need to know to understand Aoko's disgust.


Nasuverse Puppetry Theory: So since we're keeping the scene anyway, and it's clear the author intended it as a way to explore Touko's capabilities, let's talk. =') I did enjoy this explanation of how:
  • normally, the newer the doll, the less good it is
  • but Touko's craftsmanship is so good, her 20th century dolls pass for 17th century relics or older
  • and her magecraft is so prodigious, she is able to mass produce these high-craftsmanship dolls in much less time than it would take other magi
Fans of Kara no Kyoukai will already know this, but basically -- where other magi may have to source their doll parts, Touko makes hers from scratch. And, at least by the time of Kara no Kyoukai (but it's heavily implied there that she was already this good in childhood, i.e. before the events of Mahoyo take place!), Touko is so good at her craft that her "doll parts" are indistinguishable from bonafide human body parts. An Aozaki Touko arm ... may as well be an actual human arm. An Aozaki Touko eye ... may as well be an actual human eye. So on and so forth. Obviously it's a little silly to get too excited over all of this in Mahoyo since Mahoyo's job is to be an origin story which tells the tale "before they were the legends you know them as today". But still, though. ='> Can't help but to get a little excited over canonical declarations of Touko's talent.

On the flipside, however, I think it's important to remember that, even for Touko, throwing as many as thirty automatons at Aoko all at once is a bit much. The lady may be talented, but I don't know that she can make 30 automatons overnight like it were nothing. I'm not exactly sure what her production rate is, but I get the general impression from this train station scene that Touko is mad, obsessed, crazed -- that she is doing the proverbial "using a nuclear bomb to exterminate a mouse."


The Aftermath: I thought the before and after shots of the train station platform were very striking. Obviously on a technicality alone we have blood substituted out for oil. Change the color from black to red and you'd have a pretty classic gruesome bloodbath.


Glasses on, glasses off: I definitely picked up on the duality of Aozaki Touko while watching Kara no Kyoukai. How she has her "retired yakuza" side to her and then how she has her "active yakuza" side to her. But I don't think I picked up on it being something tied to her conscious decision to remove her eyeglasses. Like, subconsciously for sure and maybe even consciously also, of course you notice that she's got her glasses on when she's an approachable auntie and that vice versa when she's a violent delinquent her glasses are nowhere to be seen. But I don't think it was until this game that I'd ever realized that this is apparently a thing Touko does, that she switches between personalities depending on whether her glasses are on or off -- and that she is consciously aware of this and makes conscious decisions to enter into or exit out of a given personality.

The similarities with Ryougi Shiki, thus, are kinda crazy. The Mystic Eyes ... the multiple personalities ... I always thought that Touko was about as similar to Shiki as were Mikiya or Azaka. I didn't realize that Auntie had so much in common with her surrogate niece.

Aoko informs us later that Touko's eyesight "has always been perfect. She's a monster who was even born with Mystic Eyes." Touko's having perfect vision makes sense seeing as Touko has full control over the quality of the eyeballs she fashions for herself. ^_^; Or so I would have thought, at least. Because Aoko then goes on to add that "in trying to live up to our grandfather's expectations, she probably overdid it and her eyes suffered as a result." Meaning there's some level of permanent damage to Touko's eyes? How can that be? What sort of damage is she doing such that it transfers between bodies?

Given that Touko's default state is (or once was) perfect vision, it seems logical that the "bad bitch", "active yakuza" personality of Aozaki Touko's with the glasses taken off is her default personality.


Mystic Eyes: Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiii did not remember this detail from the Kara no Kyoukai movies, at all. o_o Apparently Touko has Mystic Eyes. I look forward to the game (hopefully! ^^; ) revealing what they do. Otherwise it'll be off to the fan wiki for me once the game is over. The fact that Touko periodically reproduces her body means ...that Touko is capable of producing Mystic Eyes from scratch by hand? O.o At least her own? That alone seems like the sort of thing the Association would want to designate her for sealing over, let alone her ability to reproduce a human body from scratch indistinguishable from one born from the womb and raised in the world. Anyway, she uses her eye powers on Soujuurou -- they seem to have some hypnotic properties? Some light amnesia, some suggestion ... Speaking of amnesia, though ... part of me now wonders, are we gonna see Touko's Mystic Eyes ultimately used to achieve the girls' objective of erasing Soujuurou's memories? I guess that will depend on what exactly her Mystic Eyes do and just how powerful and permanent of an amnesia she can conjure up.


Alice's Fury: When Alice discovers that Soujuurou let a stranger into the house -- and not just any stranger, the enemy magus! -- all of that trust she had wanted to place in Soujuurou, all of that courage she had mustered, is gone -- or at least, jeopardized. After the mighty SLAP! that she gives him, reminiscent of the time that an adult Aozaki Aoko almost knocked Tohno Shiki's head off , Soujuurou is shown as seriously repentant and Alice is shown as full of regret, hurt, and sorrow. As Nasu writes, "Both Soujuurou and Alice stood there, chained to the spot by their own regret." It's not a happy moment for anybody. =<

But she is right to be upset. Letting an enemy magus into Alice's workshop is about the dumbest, most dangerous thing Soujuurou could have done to her. We're lucky that seemingly Touko didn't stick around to investigate. ...But the jury is out on that for now, as it's entirely possible that Soujuurou's recollection of Touko's departure is unreliable and, for all we know, she did a clean sweep of the estate before the girls managed to return home.


Magic vs. Magecraft, revisited: We get a second explanation about the difference between majutsu "magecraft" and mahou "magic" or "True Magic". In short, Magic can make the impossible possible but is narrow in scope, while magecraft is broad in scope but cannot make the impossible possible. These definitions kinda fall apart imo if you start to grammar nazi them or "I know thermodynamics better than Type-Moon!" them, but the basic gist of it (as I understand it) is something like this:
  • if something can be done under certain circumstances, then magecraft can make it possible to do the same task under some other circumstances. For example, a sword can be greased and the grease can be set on fire such that the sword is now a fiery sword; thus, magecraft could potentially make it to where you can set a sword on fire with a snap of your fingers. The snap of your fingers part is why it's magic (in the colloquial sense; magecraft here in the T-M sense), but the fact that there are other ways to set a sword on fire is why it's magecraft and not (T-M) magic.
  • if there are no circumstances under which something can be done -- it doesn't matter the temperature, it doesn't matter the time, there's nothing you can do to the test conditions to make it to where this outcome will happen -- then getting that to happen will require True Magic. There are no circumstances under which you can go back in time, so going back in time would require True Magic.
The more important part of this scene is the new information we gain regarding the Aozaki family magic and Aoko's history with her sister. We discover a couple of interesting surprises:
  1. an Aozaki ancestor already discovered the Fifth Magic. It wasn't Aoko. O_o #huh
  2. Magic -- True Magic -- can be and is passed down through the generations, provided you have eligible recipients to inherit it. Huh. O_o
  3. Aoko's grandfather was the latest recipient ...
  4. ...until the winter when Aoko was 15, at which point he designated Aoko his heir, snubbing Touko
  5. Aoko is "four years younger" than Touko
  6. Touko had been groomed for the position from birth. Inheriting the Fifth Magic was, in a literal sense, "her birthright". She was understandably hurt and outraged.
  7. "Successors are supposed to be chosen based on their affinity for magecraft... and in that sense, my sister was definitely a prodigy. But, her talent just wasn't fit for an heir, for whatever reason." Hm.
  8. "Instead, I turned out to be more suited to succeed it."
  9. Touko fought with her grandfather, smashed her glasses, and left home three and a half years ago, says Aoko.
    • and since the sisters are four years apart, this means that Aoko today is roughly the same age that Touko was when Touko left home
  10. Aoko admits to not being a particularly talented magus. She also states, "I can't wield Magic, nor do I want to. I'm just the successor to the Aozaki family." This begs the question of Aoko's awareness of what took place at the amusement park, and whether or not or to what extent what we saw really was the Fifth Magic.
  11. Aoko says that until she was designated the heir to the family Magic she was hardly trained in magic at all -- she explains that a middle class family can only afford to train one heir, and it's usually the eldest child or else the child with the greatest magical talent. And Touko was both of these. So Touko was the family heir all the way up until Aoko's 15th year, after which point the family veered onto the Aoko path, had to crash course their second daughter in magecraft, and the already-educated Touko was basically a ronin now ^^; *shrug*
I may have misunderstood some of these details, but this seems to be the general gist of things from Aoko's conversation with Soujuurou. If anyone reading this knows better and I've said something wrong, please, correct me. I'm just as shocked as anyone to read what I think I just read -- I always thought that Aoko was herself the one who reached the Root (hence why her hair will turn red in the future), and I always thought that True Magic was not teachable or heritable.


Understanding Aozaki Touko: Earlier I mentioned that Soujuurou and Aoko have fundamentally different opinions on what motivates Touko. Let's look a bit more closely at some of these conversations.
Aoko: You know, now that I think of it, was Touko trying to give [Grandfather] a message? Why did she throw her glasses at [him], when she could have smoked him with a single Finn Shot? […]"

Soujuurou shook his head, disappointed at Aoko's misjudgment of the situation.

Soujuurou: This isn't about any grudge. Those glasses ... they were important to her. It was a symbol of all of her efforts that everyone could see. To break them like that ... it must have been painful. Painful enough for her to feel like she had to break them.

As Soujuurou spoke, neither Aoko nor Alice noticed the grief he was fighting to hold in. Or more accurately, they could not understand his point of view. After all, in a world where mages are raised to fight other mages, empathy was in short supply.
Here we have our first fundamental difference of opinion. Aoko is befuddled by Touko's smashing of her glasses, while Soujuurou understands perfectly. To Soujuurou, the girls don't get it because they are too magey. To the girls, Soujuurou is the one who doesn't get it because he doesn't think like a mage enough.


The scene continues:
Alice: I wonder why she chose to come back now. Like Aoko said, Touko could have taken Misaki City any time she wanted to.
Aoko: That's right. If she wanted this land that badly, she should have come back three years ago, killed me, and reclaimed her rights. ...Maybe she had a change of heart after seeing the world, I dunno.
The girls make a logical point. From a purely strategic perspective, Touko's decision to wait until now was unnecessary at best, foolish at worst. Waiting has allowed Aoko a chance to catch up to Touko, however meagerly, and defend herself against anything Touko might throw at her.

But Soujuurou disagrees:
Soujuurou: You really don't get it, do you, Aozaki?

Soujuurou shook with a faint anger. His voice changed from the boy they thought they knew.

Aoko: Oh, and you do?
Soujuurou: Yes, like anyone would. Touko was waiting for you to become a fully-fledged mage so that you would lose the same thing that was stolen from her. That's how deep her hurt and hatred goes.
"The Hisoka". Just like Hisoka in Hunter x Hunter deliberately sparing Gon's life, even involving himself purposely here or there to cultivate the boy's growth, all so that one day Gon will prove an opponent worthy of Hisoka, because for Hisoka the victory is meaningless if it's against an ant or a turtle, he wants to fight for his life and only just barely win ... Soujuurou argues that we have here a similar outcome for Touko. Yes, Touko could have invaded Misaki City three years ago, taken it over, and eliminated both Aoko and Alice ... but she didn't want to. Because that would be too easy. Snuffing out the baby who robbed her of her birthright would not restore Touko's dignity, would not prove Touko's point to anybody. Anybody can suffocate a baby. No, what Touko wanted ... was to eliminate Aoko when she was just as old as Touko was when the decision was made to snatch the Aozaki birthright away from her. To eliminate not Aoko the Child but Aoko the Adult. To prove to her grandfather, "You chose wrong." To prove to the world ... to prove to herself ... "I am the better Aozaki."

How then do the girls react to this?


Like this. Like they cannot believe the level of ignorance Soujuurou is displaying. Aoko sighs. Alice composes herself.

Soujuurou gazed at them, wondering why they could not see what he could. Only, he was the one that did not understand. The two girls, and above all Aozaki Touko, deny themselves the type of relationships that other normal people are allowed to experience. Touko's actions were not fueled by hatred. While there certainly was hatred behind them, the real reason was and always has been Touko's pursuit of True Magic. She was an ambitious and talented mage; her hatred was only her veneer. Thinking of her in any other way would be an insult to the elder sister who devoted her life to the study of magecraft.
So, Word of God says we're wrong, Soujuurou's wrong, this isn't about hate or revenge, this is strictly about pursuing True Magic.

Uhhh... Unreliable narrator, much? ^^; 'Cause I dunno, man ... Soujuurou absolutely seems like the lens of truth in this situation, uninhibited by the biases that mages like Aoko and Alice brought up in the magi world would have. Their refusal to see Touko as anything other than a mage feels wrong, especially for someone as enigmatic and special as Aozaki Touko. So what exactly do the girls say?
All of this Aoko wanted to tell Soujuurou, but instead stopped herself. Even if she had, Soujuurou was not a mage and could never understand, and besides, arguing with him any further would not have brought her any joy. She could not have put it into words even if she had tried. And so...

Aoko: Hmmm... You sure are taking her side a lot, Soujuurou. Could it be... love at first sight?

In her own cowardly way, Aoko dodged the subject. She smirked childishly.

Soujuurou: I get how she feels, a little. I pity her.

Soujuurou did not take the bait. Aoko was frustrated at his reply.

Aoko: And why, might I ask?

An icy glare replaced her smile.

He did not falter, only plainly stating,

Soujuurou: Because she has to fight her only sister. That's sad, isn't it?

This was the source of his frustration.

Aoko: ...It's sad all right.

Aoko's eyes narrowed unconsciously, as if hiding from a painful truth. "This guy is a poison," she thought to herself. A poison with no antidote; with his words, he was unwittingly bringing her weakness to light.

Aoko: My sister and I... We don't think of it in that way, though. To us, this was always the way it would turn out.

Soujuurou looked down and frowned in defeat. "And that's sad too," he muttered.
In the end, Soujuurou concludes that Aoko is blind, incapable of seeing things as they truly are; likewise, Aoko and Alice conclude that Soujuurou is incapable of understanding the way a magus thinks, acts, and operates.

Well played, Nasu. Well played.


Destroying what's most precious to Aoko: The chapter ends with a discussion on Soujuurou's presence on Touko's radar. Aoko seems to think that Soujuurou doesn't register at all: "After meeting you, she must have realized that you have nothing to do with us, so I doubt we need to worry about her going after you." Soujuurou is not so sure. Aoko assures him, Touko never pays attention to things that are of no use to her. Comforted by this, Soujuurou tells Aoko, "Oh, right. Speaking of things she has no use for, Touko took your teacup. The nice Sčvres one." Aoko goes into angry shock. Her favorite teacup, stolen! Then she calms down and sighs. "...Nothing to do now, I guess. She always did have a habit of stealing my things."

Soujuurou & the audience: Wut.
Aoko: So many of my crayons and dolls, she took as she pleased... And broke them, too.
Soujuurou & the audience: ...

Or, as Nasu literally writes:
Soujuurou felt his heart jump into his mouth. The ominous foreshadowing was not lost on him.

Soujuurou: Why... do you think that was?
Aoko: Because she made a hobby out of taking my property and smashing it to pieces, obviously! Once she had her eye on something, I had to kiss it goodbye.
Soujuurou: ...

Listening to Aoko, Soujuurou recalled his conversation with Touko. He hoped he was imagining it, but he vaguely recalled her declaring Shizuki Soujuurou as someone's property...

Soujuurou: That... is troubling.
Ganbare, Soujuurou! You got this!
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Old 03-14-2023, 04:31 AM   #32
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Dude, Alice fell faster than the World Trade Center. She really does feel like Rem 2.0, she rebounded from hate to dokidoki in no time at all.

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Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post

This is my teacup. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

My teacup is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.

My teacup, without me, is useless. Without my teacup, I am useless. I must sip my teacup true. I must drink more than my enemy who is trying to outdrink me. I must caffienate her before she caffienates me. I will…

My teacup and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we down, the noise of our kettle, nor the steam we make. We know that it is the shots that count. We will drink…

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Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Thus, I would propose a very simple order change to fix this scene:
  1. First, either scrap Alice and Aoko's misunderstanding scene (just don't even have it take place) or else keep it and keep it all the way home. Next.
  2. Cut back to the mansion, where we find Touko with Soujuurou. Touko still hasn't revealed the truth to Soujuurou.
  3. Cut back to the girls, still trying to piece together who their assailant is, and identifying things which the audience -- who has both the train station cards and the mansion cards in hand -- gets to freak out about.
  4. Finally, cut back to the mansion, and have Touko reveal the truth to Soujuurou (or Soujuurou figure it out, either/or). As for the girls, they can either figure it out later or they can have the truth explained to them by Soujuurou when they get home.
It's not a huge deal. I just ... think the current placement of the reveal is super anti-climactic in an otherwise satisfyingly climactic scene. Touko deserves better! =<
The editing on that scene comes across like it was intended for anime. The POV switches sound quite awkward for for something with novel pacing and just bringing up the puppets coincidentally while Soujuurou is about to be raped is too coincidental.

Having Alice and Aoko intermittently discuss the enemy magius would have eased the transition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Alice's Fury: When Alice discovers that Soujuurou let a stranger into the house -- and not just any stranger, the enemy magus! -- all of that trust she had wanted to place in Soujuurou, all of that courage she had mustered, is gone -- or at least, jeopardized. After the mighty SLAP! that she gives him, reminiscent of the time that an adult Aozaki Aoko almost knocked Tohno Shiki's head off , Soujuurou is shown as seriously repentant and Alice is shown as full of regret, hurt, and sorrow. As Nasu writes, "Both Soujuurou and Alice stood there, chained to the spot by their own regret." It's not a happy moment for anybody. =<

But she is right to be upset. Letting an enemy magus into Alice's workshop is about the dumbest, most dangerous thing Soujuurou could have done to her. We're lucky that seemingly Touko didn't stick around to investigate. ...But the jury is out on that for now, as it's entirely possible that Soujuurou's recollection of Touko's departure is unreliable and, for all we know, she did a clean sweep of the estate before the girls managed to return home.
Spoiler: show

Is it just me, or does the entire thing read like rape? Touko is out to ruin and humiliate Aoko, walks into her dwelling, flashes hypnotic "lightbulbs" at Aoko's love interest, there's blurry memories with the morning after and the predator leaves without any property damage, just a souvenier.

Like I could easily imagine an H scene in this section if this were an eroge from 2006.



Look at that seductive pose, that seducive face, smoking the cigarette indoors! You think with her rivalry with Aoko, she's going to leave Soujuurou with blue balls?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
I may have misunderstood some of these details, but this seems to be the general gist of things from Aoko's conversation with Soujuurou. If anyone reading this knows better and I've said something wrong, please, correct me. I'm just as shocked as anyone to read what I think I just read -- I always thought that Aoko was herself the one who reached the Root (hence why her hair will turn red in the future), and I always thought that True Magic was not teachable or heritable.
Why wouldn't it? Both Rin and Sasaki Kojirou were able to use the Second Magic, through presumably different routes from Zelretch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
So, Word of God says we're wrong, Soujuurou's wrong, this isn't about hate or revenge, this is strictly about pursuing True Magic.

Uhhh... Unreliable narrator, much? ^^; 'Cause I dunno, man ... Soujuurou absolutely seems like the lens of truth in this situation, uninhibited by the biases that mages like Aoko and Alice brought up in the magi world would have. Their refusal to see Touko as anything other than a mage feels wrong, especially for someone as enigmatic and special as Aozaki Touko. So what exactly do the girls say?
All of this Aoko wanted to tell Soujuurou, but instead stopped herself. Even if she had, Soujuurou was not a mage and could never understand, and besides, arguing with him any further would not have brought her any joy. She could not have put it into words even if she had tried. And so...
This has to be a curveball at the reader. Admittedly, Soujuurou does not have the credentials to make reads of human behaviour, seeing as he's kind of autistic himself. But if Touko is so transparent about her pettiness even the robot can pick up on it, that should emphasize how out of touch the girls are.

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Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Listening to Aoko, Soujuurou recalled his conversation with Touko. He hoped he was imagining it, but he vaguely recalled her declaring Shizuki Soujuurou as someone's property...

Soujuurou: That... is troubling.

Ganbare, Soujuurou! You got this!
The WoG really messes up this scene, it's a have cake situation. Soujuurou can't be right here but wrong earlier, and Toukou considering Soujuurou Aoko's man seems like a stretch considering it's Alice's house. He could be Alice's boyfriend for all she knows.
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Old 03-14-2023, 07:31 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Is it just me, or does the entire thing read like rape?

Spoiler: show
Touko is out to ruin and humiliate Aoko, walks into her dwelling, flashes hypnotic "lightbulbs" at Aoko's love interest, there's blurry memories with the morning after and the predator leaves without any property damage, just a souvenier.
It definitely has the same symbolic weight, which (when you point it out like that) does make it rather sad then that the aftermath focus is a lot of victim blaming. ...But to be fair:

Spoiler: show
Alice is as much the potential victim here as was Soujuurou the actual victim. I guess the analogy might be ... if you were a guard posted to a military compound, and you let the Russian femme fatale in, and then the Russian femme fatale drugged you and raped you, and the next thing you know she's gone and your C.O. has returned from whatever it was that he was doing. There should be some compassion for the individual who was just raped, yes, but at the same time a court martial is likely appropriate too because the individual displayed gross negligence allowing an outsider inside the base when he knows that no one is allowed in except for military personnel. It's not great that the troop was raped, but he could have jeopardized national security by allowing the infiltrator to have free access to the base.


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Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Spoiler: show


Look at that seductive pose, that seducive face, smoking the cigarette indoors! You think with her rivalry with Aoko, she's going to leave Soujuurou with blue balls?
So, I think we should be mindful of other people lurking the thread now and of future readers who might show up eager to find discussion for earlier chapters from other users. Partly I spoiler tag the contents because they are long, but mostly I really do spoiler tag them because they have the potential to spoil the story for people who'd see them but who aren't there yet themselves. This is reflected in a lot of my chapter banner picture selections -- "Why did he choose that!? " when there are much more obvious pictures to choose from to represent the chapter? Well because I don't want to spoil the surprises for anybody. ^_^;

All of this is to say, could I ask you to please spoiler tag this? ^^;

Spoiler: show
I know that "the twist" is obvious to everyone currently reading the thread, but (1) it won't necessarily be obvious to future visitors and (2) even some of the UPNers who are currently active and could be interested in the title may not know of Touko's role in this title. Let them have their big in-game reveal, please. =')


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Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Why wouldn't it? Both Rin and Sasaki Kojirou were able to use the Second Magic, though presumably different routes from Zelretch.
Hmm... I don't really have a good rebuttal to either one of these points of comparison. I guess I just feel like I read somewhere long ago, and have run with it for a very long time now, that:

Spoiler: show
unlocking a True Magic was user-specific to the person who reached the Root, and that the magic itself was not teachable or heritable. The fact that True Magic is now being argued to be teachable and/or heritable begs questions about, e.g., what happened with the First Magic and its user. If it's Jesus, as everyone assumes it is, and if the First Magic involves resurrection (or other, perhaps broader powers of healing that Christ demonstrated), as everyone assumes that it does, then I guess it comes right down to: are we working with heritability, then? And the idea that no one can do the First Magic anymore stems from Jesus having left behind no heirs? Or are we dealing with teaching, in which case we have to ask the question -- did Type-Moon Jesus not successfully teach any of his True Magic to Simon Peter or to any of the other disciples? Or are we dealing with heritability but we are also dealing with a Da Vinci Code scenario in which Christ actually did have descendants and the Church has gone out of its way to cover this up for a number of reasons? Questions! ^^; Questions I'm sure Nasu is sitting on until his personal endgame as a Type-Moon content creator. We shall see.



Quote:
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[Soujuurou] could be Alice's boyfriend for all [s/he] knows.
So, just as a point of clarification for you in case the information was omitted from the posts but would be obvious to someone reading the book:

Spoiler: show
Touko inquires about the dog collar around Soujuurou's neck. He confirms that it is a dog collar, and that it's not a fashion choice, and that he received it from Aoko. Touko's eyes then narrow as she sinisterly mumbles to herself, "So you're Aoko's, then..." While I suppose you could say that she is still leaping to conclusions and that it is technically possible that Soujuurou be Alice's boyfriend while wearing Aoko's dog collar, I think Touko's conclusion is relatively fair and, in this circumstance, does happen to hold true [that he is not, at least, Alice's loafer boyfriend living at the mansion].

Also, we are told via narration that Soujuurou regales Touko with many stories about Aoko. We are not told that he regales Touko with stories about Alice. So, again, Touko could probably reasonably conclude that Soujuurou is not Alice's boyfriend since, even if he were to still discuss Aoko with a curious Aoko's sister, you would expect him were he Alice's boyfriend to at least bring Alice up occasionally in conversation with Touko too. But the implication really does seem to be a one-sided focus on Aoko as he and Touko sip tea.
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Old 03-14-2023, 05:16 PM   #34
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Hmm... I don't really have a good rebuttal to either one of these points of comparison. I guess I just feel like I read somewhere long ago, and have run with it for a very long time now, that:

Spoiler: show
unlocking a True Magic was user-specific to the person who reached the Root, and that the magic itself was not teachable or heritable. The fact that True Magic is now being argued to be teachable and/or heritable begs questions about, e.g., what happened with the First Magic and its user. If it's Jesus, as everyone assumes it is, and if the First Magic involves resurrection (or other, perhaps broader powers of healing that Christ demonstrated), as everyone assumes that it does, then I guess it comes right down to: are we working with heritability, then? And the idea that no one can do the First Magic anymore stems from Jesus having left behind no heirs? Or are we dealing with teaching, in which case we have to ask the question -- did Type-Moon Jesus not successfully teach any of his True Magic to Simon Peter or to any of the other disciples? Or are we dealing with heritability but we are also dealing with a Da Vinci Code scenario in which Christ actually did have descendants and the Church has gone out of its way to cover this up for a number of reasons? Questions! ^^; Questions I'm sure Nasu is sitting on until his personal endgame as a Type-Moon content creator. We shall see.
I think in proto materials one of the requirements for magic was that it could have only one user ever, and once multiple people use it, it becomes magecraft. But I'm fairly sure this was obsoleted by the original FSN with Justica and Ilya being able to use Heaven's Feel. This old framework would fit with Aoko discovering the 5th Magic but her grandfather doing most of the heavy research that she springboarded from.

Could try to get away with it by claiming the Jewel Sword, Tsubame Gaeshi are not actual "magic" but "magic-like" but that's a cop-out to me. Simply defining magic as something impossible by conventional magecraft or science is good enough.
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Old 03-14-2023, 07:27 PM   #35
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Disclaimer: this reply contains copious Fate/stay night spoilers for the game's third path, Heaven's Feel. It's assumed the reader is familiar due to UPN anime forum community familiarity with the material.

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I think in proto materials one of the requirements for magic was that it could have only one user ever, and once multiple people use it, it becomes magecraft. But I'm fairly sure this was obsoleted by the original FSN with Justica and Ilya being able to use Heaven's Feel. This old framework would fit with Aoko discovering the 5th Magic but her grandfather doing most of the heavy research that she springboarded from.
Maybe ... Maybe I've been operating off of his old high school notes that fans ravenously referenced in the '04 to '09 years. But I dunno. I feel like this is something that was operationally fact as recently as the lead-up into Mahoyo's 2012 release. Like I said, I've only just now been dissuaded of this by Mahoyo's word-of-God exposition, with Aoko as Nasu's mouthpiece, eleven years after the game's first release.

The more I do think about it, though, the more I do identify possible holes in my previous understanding. For instance, everyone agrees that FSN HF ends with Zelretch taking Rin under his wing. Everyone also agrees that Zelretch took interest in the Tohsaka family specifically because he felt that they had the potential, maybe, to one day ... to one day what, exactly?
Despite their strange relationship, Zelretch entrusted the design of the Jewel Sword to Nagato and the Tohsaka family. Though there were other candidates to whom he could have given them, such as the brilliant Einzberns and Makiris, they were fundamentally evil. Nagato, while mediocre, was good at heart, so he concluded that "this House will probably never accomplish anything great, but at least they will never stray from the righteous path." He then gave the design to Nagato and told him "alright, it will be a struggle, but work towards this goal". He never expected that only six generations would be needed to produce a result.
"Produce a result" -- what does this mean? Does it mean "someone who can wield the 2nd Magic with the jewel sword as a crutch"? Does it mean more simply "someone who can wield the jewel sword"? Does it mean "someone who can wield the 2nd Magic", with or without the sword? What exactly is the "result" that Zelretch felt the family might one day produce, and which he felt Rin did produce at the end of HF? All I'm confident in right now, without refreshing myself massively on HF, is that at the end of the path:
  1. Rin definitely uses the sword.
  2. The sword definitely is an artifact (to use MtG terminology) / Mystic Code (to use Nasu's) which either:
    1. catalyzes the 2nd Magic. That is to say, if it's normally really, really difficult to use the 2nd Magic, the jewel sword makes it thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis easy to use it. How easy is "this easy"? I have no idea.
    2. has the 2nd Magic built into it.
  3. The sword very specifically allows Rin to siphon a non-zero amount of mana away from as many universes as she likes. Insert discussions of thermodynamics and the 2nd Magic here.
It would basically seem to boil down to this:
  • (working forwards from A) if Zelretch believes that Rin's wielding of the jeweled sword promises the potential for an heir to the 2nd Magic, then this means that the 2nd Magic must be teachable
  • (working backwards from B) if the 2nd Magic is heritable only, then Rin (and/or her descendants), no matter how gifted and no matter how attuned to the 2nd Magic, will never be able to directly wield it the way that Zelretch can -- she/they can only wield it through the use of Mystic Codes like the sword and other accessory devices.
Which one is it? I still have no idea. *shrug*

You said something at the end there:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
This old framework would fit with Aoko discovering the 5th Magic but her grandfather doing most of the heavy research that she springboarded from.
To give precise insight from the game:

Spoiler: show
  1. Aoko denies being able to use Magic. Thus, she denies being able to use the Fifth Magic.
  2. Aoko states being the heir to the Fifth Magic, designated by her grandfather. Thus, even though she cannot wield it, she possesses it currently? *shrug*
  3. Aoko states that one of her ancestors figured it out. We're not sure how far back before Grandfather, but it's rather implied that it may be the person who put Clan Aozaki on the map. Regardless, it's someone before Grandfather.
So, I'm still trying to figure out what all of this means. But I don't think your hypothesis about "Grandfather did most of the research" is correct -- I feel like the research was already completed generations ago by the Aozaki ancestor who discovered the Fifth Magic; I feel like that ancestor wielded the Fifth Magic; and I feel like if Grandfather didn't wield the Fifth Magic, it was only because possessing it and wielding it are two different things in the Nasuverse. *shrug* I really didn't get the impression from Aoko's backstory that she is going to be the first person ever to wield the Fifth Magic. I also really didn't get the impression that Grandfather did a lot of research trying to claw Clan Aozaki towards reaching this goal -- perhaps he did a lot of research for himself, I dunno *shrug*, but the discovery process seems to have already been completed by the as-of-yet Nameless Aozaki Ancestor.
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Old 03-14-2023, 08:22 PM   #36
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Nasu is just uncooperatively vague on the canon, and I think that's part laziness and part intent for him.

What I believe is the missing connective tissue is that supposedly only one of Zelretch's kin could inherit the Second Magic. I think this was actually said in HF itself, although it's difficult to tell if it's poetic or literal:



When you look at the Aozakis and the Einzberns, with the True Magic users and adjacents being blood relatives, this makes sense.

But it also implies that Nagato an by extension Rin are descendants of Zelretch, and I've never seen anything anywhere outside of the above that explicitly links them this way.

Zelretch serendipitously meeting Nagoto, a non-mage in Japan, teaching him magic and eventually leading to some amazing result later? We've seen wizards behave like this before...Gandalf with Bilbo, Dumbledore with Harry. They pretend it's all whim and off-cuff when it was actually calculated. Occam's Razor, Zelretch was keeping tabs on his descendants and that's what led him to Nagato.
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Old 03-14-2023, 09:48 PM   #37
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(1) Does a lineage have to be "genetic"? Can "Schweinorg's lineage" refer to those who keep his teachings alive? If a child is one's genetic heir, is not a disciple one's "teachings heir"?

(2) Is it possible that every living human on the planet might be a descendant of Zelretch's at this point? While it somewhat depends on how far back he first had kids, how many kids he had, and of course the various individual dice rolls on who made it how far (and how many kids they had) before dying, statistically if Zelretch is around before 4,500 B.C.E. and has even one kid once every thousand years ... wouldn't the first couple of children be enough to ensure his genetic lineage covers a massive swath of modern humanity? See the classic "Everyone is a descendant of Charlemagne" math-bio discussion. For added reading, see here. The latter even adds a fun date for us to work with:
In 2004 mathematical modeling and computer simulations by a group of statisticians led by Douglas Rohde, then at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, indicated that our most recent common ancestor probably lived no earlier than 1400 B.C. and possibly as recently as A.D. 55. In the time of Egypt’s Queen Nefertiti, someone from whom we are all descended was likely alive somewhere in the world.
This is not quite the same thing as saying that "everyone alive at this point in time was everyone today's ancestor", but I feel like if 1,400 B.C.E. is good enough to guarantee us all one shared ancestor, then 4,500 B.C.E. might be good enough to take it to the next level.

EDIT: lol, I needed only have read on a bit further ^_^; =') :
Go back a bit further, and you reach a date when our family trees share not just one ancestor in common but every ancestor in common. At this date, called the genetic isopoint, the family trees of any two people on the earth now, no matter how distantly related they seem, trace back to the same set of individuals. “If you were alive at the genetic isopoint, then you are the ancestor of either everyone alive today or no one alive today,” Rutherford says. Humans left Africa and began dispersing throughout the world at least 120,000 years ago, but the genetic isopoint occurred much more recently—somewhere between 5300 and 2200 B.C., according to Rohde’s calculations.
So there you have it. Zelretch is either the ancestor of everyone alive or else the ancestor of absolutely nobody, by sheer mathematics-of-biology. This is probably not something that Nasu was keenly aware of in 2004, so I doubt it was intentional, but here we have it.

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Old 03-15-2023, 12:24 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
(1) Does a lineage have to be "genetic"? Can "Schweinorg's lineage" refer to those who keep his teachings alive? If a child is one's genetic heir, is not a disciple one's "teachings heir"?
This scratches a fundmental problem with Nasu's writing that also overlaps with Biblical...the literal versus figurative. Nasu uses both and doesn't always telegraph when something is or isn't, especially in earlier works (it seems easier to tell in Mahoyo) and going from JP to ENG doesn't help.

For example, when looking for that snapshot from above, I see that the Jewel Sword is described as "alien technology". This is on the Wiki and quoted directly from HF itself.

"Alien" can mean anything from "exotic" to literally "of extraterrestrial origin". The word is trying to get across that it's too advanced for Shirou to understand, but Shirou also has Archer's knowledge, and thus the knowledge of countless swordsmen, at his disposal.

So with the Jeweled Sword, Ilya could be saying "normally it can't be used by anyone except Zelretch's heir" or "it cannot be used by anyone except Zelretch's heir". In that scene, she's consoling Shirou who didn't perfectly copy it, because he didn't understand it. If he can't use it, why can only Rin?

It seems really suspicious to me that the only people in the world who can use the sword are Rin and Zelretch. Add to how we know the Makiris were not originally Japanese, having fled to Japan initially, and I think Nasu was trying to lead readers to draw the conclusion that Rin is Zelretch's heir.

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Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
This is not quite the same thing as saying that "everyone alive at this point in time was everyone today's ancestor", but I feel like if 1,400 B.C.E. is good enough to guarantee us all one shared ancestor, then 4,500 B.C.E. might be good enough to take it to the next level.

EDIT: lol, I needed only have read on a bit further ^_^; =') :
Go back a bit further, and you reach a date when our family trees share not just one ancestor in common but every ancestor in common. At this date, called the genetic isopoint, the family trees of any two people on the earth now, no matter how distantly related they seem, trace back to the same set of individuals. “If you were alive at the genetic isopoint, then you are the ancestor of either everyone alive today or no one alive today,” Rutherford says. Humans left Africa and began dispersing throughout the world at least 120,000 years ago, but the genetic isopoint occurred much more recently—somewhere between 5300 and 2200 B.C., according to Rohde’s calculations.
So there you have it. Zelretch is either the ancestor of everyone alive or else the ancestor of absolutely nobody, by sheer mathematics-of-biology. This is probably not something that Nasu was keenly aware of in 2004, so I doubt it was intentional, but here we have it.
I actually think Nasu was aware of the Genghis Khan meme, it's pretty well known even amongst the normie crowd. I don't think it factors into his universe in this case though because in FSN, Zelretch is still assumed a vampire and had a normal human lifspan before getting turned.

From that point on he wouldn't have children, and being a vampire it would explain why he's immortal, has the ability to detect his own blood and why he'd have an interest in his heirs, his only remaining family.

Doesn't fit quite so well in the new canon. For one, Zelretch apparently isn't a German celt anymore, but a semite.
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Old 03-15-2023, 07:20 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
This scratches a fundmental problem with Nasu's writing that also overlaps with Biblical...the literal versus figurative. Nasu uses both and doesn't always telegraph when something is or isn't, especially in earlier works (it seems easier to tell in Mahoyo) and going from JP to ENG doesn't help.

For example, when looking for that snapshot from above, I see that the Jewel Sword is described as "alien technology". This is on the Wiki and quoted directly from HF itself.

"Alien" can mean anything from "exotic" to literally "of extraterrestrial origin". The word is trying to get across that it's too advanced for Shirou to understand, but Shirou also has Archer's knowledge, and thus the knowledge of countless swordsmen, at his disposal.

So with the Jeweled Sword, Ilya could be saying "normally it can't be used by anyone except Zelretch's heir" or "it cannot be used by anyone except Zelretch's heir". In that scene, she's consoling Shirou who didn't perfectly copy it, because he didn't understand it. If he can't use it, why can only Rin?

It seems really suspicious to me that the only people in the world who can use the sword are Rin and Zelretch. Add to how we know the Makiris were not originally Japanese, having fled to Japan initially, and I think Nasu was trying to lead readers to draw the conclusion that Rin is Zelretch's heir.
All interesting points. I had forgotten the argument that Shirou cannot wield the sword, or that Rin is exceptional for her ability to wield the sword. That would again seem to point to an idea of either "the Tohsakas are of Schweinorg's teachings lineage" or else "the Tohsakas are of Schweinorg's genetic lineage" in a way that Shirou et al may not be. Alternatively, if Nasu wishes to pursue the math-bio discussion about descent from Charlemagne or descent from Genghis Khan, then perhaps the fact that Shirou cannot wield the sword but Rin can is less telling about Rin than it is about Shirou, an individual who to this day we know precious little about his pedigree.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
I actually think Nasu was aware of the Genghis Khan meme, it's pretty well known even amongst the normie crowd. I don't think it factors into his universe in this case though because in FSN, Zelretch is still assumed a vampire and had a normal human lifspan before getting turned.
So, this has been retconned. �� You seem to possibly be aware of it, writing that "it is assumed" he is a vampire and later making reference to the "new canon"... But just in case you don't know, I will go ahead and dive into an explanation below.

The remainder of this post contains copious spoilers for Parts 1 and 2 of Fate/Grand Order.

When writing for Fate/Grand Order, Nasu introduced the idea of a world-tree of timelines, trying to somewhat codify the multiverse that exists within his Nasuverse framework. And to the extent that he gave fans codification, Nasu explained and made canon that while there are an infinite number of universes, not all conceivable permutations are possible. So for example, because of how infinity works, we can say that "there are an infinite number of universes in which Doppel discovered Pokémon," but this has no guarantee on the number of universes in which Doppel didn't discover Pokémon. Because of how infinity works, it then tends to bleed down all-or-none angles -- either there are an infinite number of universes in which [blank] happens, or else there are no universes in which [blank] happens.

In Part 1 of Fate/Grand Order, the archvillain's goal is the eradication of humanity achieved by the destabilization of human history such that, in all possible timelines, humanity ceases to exist by the year 2015. Nasu's argument in Part 1 is that world history can resist smaller changes to the timeline -- the world won't end just because in this timeline Shirou ate a jelly donut for breakfast but in this timeline he had mackerel and miso soup -- but that there are certain "lynchpin moments" in human history that have to happen in all timelines for which humanity makes it past 2015. So he argues, for instance, that in all successful timelines ("successful" meaning human civilization makes it into the future) there has to have been a Roman empire. He argues that there has to have been a successful American experiment called the United States of America. He argues that there has to have been not total annihilation of the kingdom of Ur, that so long as some survivors make it out of Ur alive and proceed to give rise to proto-Assyria, etc, that we're good. The archvillain's goal, thus, is to make it so that Rome falls prematurely; so that the American experiment dies in the cradle; so that Ur is wiped off the face of the map completely, no survivors; etc.

BORKED

You can think of it like weight distribution dynamics -- Nasu argues that the World can resist certain perturbations and "restore itself" / "course-correct", but that some perturbations are simply incompatible with a timeline in which humanity makes it out of the early 21st century. So for instance, when the villain sets out to destabilize the timeline by murdering the American experiment in its crib, he arranges for the successful execution of George Washington (among other plot details); when our heroes successfully save the American experiment, it is not by bringing George Washington back to life -- they can't. Instead, the America of the "saved timeline" is an America in which the 1st president of the United States is someone else, and George Washington died during the conflict. George Washington being America's 1st President is not a requirement for the infinite number of timelines in which Humanity makes it across the finish line -- but America coming into being at all, and becoming the nation it became by the end of the 19th century, Nasu argues is. To provide another, much more poignant example, a spoiler for the end of the final Singularity of Part 1, Absolute Demonic Front Babylonia:

Spoiler: show
In all timelines for which humanity is successful, there cannot be a total annihilation of Ur. That's the requirement. So what happens is:
  • before the enemy's plan is put into motion, history has it that Ur's peak was during the reign of King Gilgamesh, and that several generations later his dynasty came to an end and the people of Ur sort of dissipated throughout the area and eventually you get successor kingdoms like Assyria and later Babylon.
  • the enemy sets into motion a devastating assault on Ur during the reign of Gilgamesh
  • when the heroes arrive to try and fix the timeline, they discover that Ur is already heavily besieged
  • there are no take-backs, and for purposes of dramatic storytelling the heroes did not arrive prior to the enemy launching his timeline nuke; so the dead remain dead, the devastation remains, etc.
  • the heroes ultimately win, but the toll is tremendous: Gilgamesh will be the last king of the now-failed state of Ur; the survivors number in the hundreds; and history will remember him as the king during whose watch Ur fell
It's a sad, poignant, irritating idea (and that was precisely Nasu's intent), but at the end of the day, "the world will go on" and it didn't require Gilgamesh to be particularly successful or well-loved by history -- all it required is that Ur didn't get completely snuffed out under his watch. If the kingdom ends with him, so be it. If history remembers him as a failed head of state, so be it.

In Part 1, Nasu introduces readers to Singularities. A "Singularity" refers to one of those timeline perturbations where, left unchecked, the human civilization vehicle will lose control and go off-road. There's no taking back the swerving -- the swerving is now a permanent part of the fabric of the timeline -- but we can at least see if the heroes can right the ship. In all cases, these Singularities concern the timeline which the heroes originate from. (Through a lot of hand-wavey magic, the heroes are insulated from the effects of the timeline's many historical changes as their base of operations exists within a bubble that still follows the rules and historical expectations of the world they knew on the eve of the archvillain's attack. Basically "they're in a magic bubble" approx. one military compound in diameter.)

In Part 2, Nasu introduces readers to Lostbelts. A "Lostbelt" refers to a hypothetical timeline which could have been but which has 1+ fundamental problems with it that prevent it from being "the one". Because the World wants Humanity to make it, the World tends to "prune" these lostbelt "branches" from the timeline "tree". They are alternately referred to as "pruned worlds", although in the context of FGO and to be terminologically accurate, when we visit Lostbelts they are as yet not pruned and are actively resisting being pruned. Hence why they are "Lostbelts" to begin with -- they cease to exist once pruned, and wouldn't be a Lostbelt if they were an acceptable permutation of the timeline. What makes them a Lostbelt is precisely the fact that they are not an acceptable permutation to the timeline yet are resisting being pruned. (Much more plot to explain there, but for now -- for our current conversation -- this will suffice.) To quote the fan Wiki:
The primary history of the worlds is called the Proper Human History (汎人類史, also called Pan-Human History), consisting of all worlds that have not been pruned. Worlds that are cut off completely but are artificially sustained beyond the point at which they would be pruned are called Lostbelts.
In the wake of introducing Lostbelts and further codifying his idea of a World-timeline-Tree, Nasu retcons that there are only two types of worlds which are ultimately compatible with Humanity making it out of the 21st century. These two types of worlds, these two "mega-branches" of the World-timeline-Tree, are Fate worlds and Tsukihime worlds. Quoting the fan Wiki again:
Although most works share a similar foundation where it could be said that they take place in the same world, there are actually two primary types of worlds, Fate Worlds (Fate世界, Feito Sekai) and Tsukihime Worlds (月姫世界, Tsukihime Sekai). Fate worlds are based in the "Affirmation of Human History" where Heroic Spirits can be summoned as Servants, and Tsukihime Worlds are based in the "■■■■■■■■ of Human History" where the concept of summoning Heroic Spirits is laughable and where Dead Apostles, the antithesis of Human History, stand at the center of the story.
While the Wiki does note that "there are [also] worlds that 'aren't really either' type of world [and] that do have elements of both for unknown reasons," for the most part the idea is that there are Fate worlds, there are Tsukihime worlds, and then there are worlds incompatible with a future for Humanity.

So what does all of this mean for Zelretch?

You had said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
in FSN, Zelretch is still assumed a vampire and had a normal human lifspan before getting turned.
This is the part that has been retconned, heavily. It is now Type-Moon canon that Heroic Spirits do not exist in Tsukihime worlds and likewise that True Ancestors do not exist (or did not survive? *shrug*) in Fate worlds. So what this means for Zelretch is that we now have at minimum two different Zelretches, canonically -- "Fate-world Zelretch" and "Tsukihime-world Zelretch".

I know, I know: it's dumb. It completely up-ends the charm and the allure of the character. ^_^; Zelretch is the original, the O.G., "character who links the worlds together." He is the multiverse traveler who slides in and out of existence between worlds and pals it up with the Brunestuds one weekend and tutors Rin the next. He can theoretically still do all of this, but it becomes a lot less charming when we stop of thinking of Zelretch as "one man traversing the multiverse" and start thinking of him as an infinite collection of men, some of them Coke-type and some of them Pepsi-type, such that a future chapter of the franchise could see a near-infinite collection of Zelretches all appearing at once to take on the Super Duper Wooper Big Bad.



Is this what Zelretch has become?

Per the fan Wiki:
Within Tsukihime worlds, he was turned into a Dead Apostle after his battle with the Crimson Moon and became recognized as the third of The Twenty-seven Dead Apostle Ancestors. Within Fate worlds, he did not become a Dead Apostle, but found immortality through other means.
I think it's dumb personally but whether I like it or not has nothing to do with whether it's the new canon or not. It's the new canon, and until Nasu decides to retcon it again we have to deal with it.

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Old 03-21-2023, 06:21 PM   #40
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Oh...I had known that there was a retcon, but I never imagined it would be so deep as to basically make Tsukihime and Fate separate universes entire.

So what universe is Mahoyo supposed to be in? Are we not expected to know until some later time?
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Old 04-05-2023, 08:09 PM   #41
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Oh...I had known that there was a retcon, but I never imagined it would be so deep as to basically make Tsukihime and Fate separate universes entire.
As sad as it is frustrating, isn't it?

I can only speculate as to why he decided to take things in this direction. And to be fair, we were always already dealing with the possibility of our favorite characters existing across different timelines. There was always the idea of, "In these timelines Satsuki becomes a vampire, and in these timelines she does not. In these timelines Arc finds a happier ending, and in these ones a sadder ending," so on and so forth. But a natural consequence of this decision is that some characters who exist in a Tsukiverse cannot exist in a Fateverse and be more or less exactly the same as they were. We are now canonically prevented from having certain ones of our favorite Type-Moon characters occupy the same place and time without sliding shenanigans.

The most prominent example I can think of is Shion:



Left: Tsukiverse ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ Right: Fateverse

Before the idea of the hard separation between Tsukihime universes and Fate ones, one could argue that Shion winds up as she does in Melty Blood in some of the universe's many timelines but that perhaps she winds up as someone else -- as FGO Shion, perhaps? -- in other timelines. That's still close to what we have at present, but with an important distinction: you can no longer have Melty Blood Shion in any Fateverse. It's just not possible. Because to get Melty Blood Shion, you'd have to have the setting that Nasu has now Word-of-God'ded into being exclusive to Tsukihime universes. "The crucible that gave rise to Sion Eltnam Atlasia is a Tsukihime universe."

However, as with anything Type-Moon does , the Rule of Cool reigns supreme. In the latest Melty Blood offering, both Mash Kyrielight and Heroic Spirit Artoria Pendragon show up and interact with the main cast of Tsukihime. In both cases, it's made clear that wHoOoOOAaAaAAaaA! shenanigans are happening and that "tHis sHOulDn't OrDiNariLy bE POssIbLe!" ... but the Rule of Cool wins out and players get a fighting game in which Mash Kyrielight can cross swords -- err, shields? 🤷 -- with Arc and Ciel.

Quote:
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So what universe is Mahoyo supposed to be in? Are we not expected to know until some later time?
That is a very good question. I honestly could not tell you at this juncture. I can tell you this, though: because of Nasu's decisions made downstream in the FGO era, he's now irrevocably forced a schism right down the center of Mahoutsukai no Yoru. Because:

(safe after Mahoyo Chapter 09, but also contains spoilers for FSN Heaven's Feel)

Spoiler: show
either Aoko isn't Shiki's Aoko ... or else Touko isn't Shirou's Touko. =\ 🤷

Really no way around it. You have two sisters that fans care about immensely. One sister's VN debut was Tsukihime. One sister's VN debut was Fate/stay night. You're now Word-of-God'ding it that the events of Tsukihime can never take place in the same timeline in which the events of Fate/stay night take place. Sooooo... either Mahoyo Aoko is going to grow up to become Shiki's Aoko, or else Mahoyo Touko is going to grow up to become Shirou's Touko. But you can't have both. Not without sliding. Which ... sure, go ahead and go for it, but like ... ^^; Shit's getting messy fast, man. ^^; =(

If I had to guess, he'll simply say that Shirou's Touko is some other timeline's Touko. The most popular incarnation of the character by far is the one in the Kara no Kyoukai novels-turned-films. So like ... so long as you preserve that Touko's connection to Mahoyo Touko, I don't think most fans are gonna care if the Touko who gave Shirou his new body is written off as "not Mahoyo Touko".

And because the character is quite popular, she has made an appearance in the Case Files spin-off series featuring grown-up Waver Velvet and his friends:



Left: Lorelei ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ Right: Case Files Touko

Lord El-Melloi II Case Files -- a decidedly Fateverse setting. So like, I can well imagine many Touko fans being more or less "just fine" with the notion that Shirou's Touko is Lorelei Touko. They're not gonna care if the Touko in Mahoyo has to be "not the FSN Touko" in order to make God's logic about Fateverses and Tsukiverses work. So long as Mahoyo Touko is the main Touko (KnK), and so long as Mahoyo Aoko is the main Aoko (Tsukihime) ...

But I care, though. =\ =( I want Touko in Mahoyo to be KnK Touko, FSN Touko, and Case Files Touko all in one. *sad sigh* =(
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Old 04-07-2023, 06:23 PM   #42
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My gut reaction is that Nasu prefers Tsukihime and its ideas, but Fate is his most commercially successful work; he doesn't want to have the younger, successful child to consistently beat up up the favourite. And if he pushes Tsuki's dominance that is just going to piss off his Fate fanbase.

Tsuki and Fate's audiences don't overlap at all except with the 'power level' crowd that everyone hates. So the only thing Nasu loses is respect for being a HACK, but he already sold out, so this isn't much of a step down.

Melty Blood is something of an exception since the actual battles are considered "non-canon", with the characters scaled to be competitive. Your power level/hierarchy superfans only care about canon which is why nobody complains about Mewtwo and Incineroar on equal footing in Smash.

@spoiler

You could always have a Rick and Morty situation where one version dies, and another comes in from a parallel universe via Zelretch to replace her. That lostbelt idea makes it even easier because one isn't dealing with a continuum of timelines, just a handful that weren't pruned or were supposed to be, yet survived.
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Old 05-04-2023, 10:24 PM   #43
Talon87
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Chapter 10: Howling

Spoiler: show
Incredible.

This chapter was incredible.

I apologize for the delayed response. I actually first read the chapter some time shortly after my last story post. I then wanted to re-read the chapter from start to finish, partly because of how good it was and partly to help me better prepare this post. That is the can that then became kicked down the road for the past few months, as I went on various adventures. I watched a lot of cinema. I watched twenty-five different motion pictures, a direct-to-home video movie, and a theater troupe musical production...

But with Breath of the Wild: Tears of the Kingdom releasing in just over seven days, I need to get my ass in GEAR! and get this book read ASAP. So let's do this!


While I do think Nasu went a little too far with his game of "Will I? ;D Won't I? ;D", holy cow at how tense this chapter was regarding Alice's fate. What an incredible back and forth this was!

Like, what even is this? XD ^^; (see list near the very end of the post once you naturally reach it) I think Nasu had a George Lucas moment here -- he had ideas he was much too fond of to cut and could have used an editor's firm hand to sculpt the script into something more refined. When you look at it like this, this is just silly! ^_^;

But as you're reading it, I won't deny ... MAN is it a non-stop page-turner! That son of a bitch! Man are you on tenterhooks the entire time, wondering "Will he? :o Won't he? :o", wondering "Will she? D= Won't she? =o" ... 'S just crazy. Well played.

But let's rewind first to the beginning of the chapter. I know, I know -- we're all excited to get to the duel. But first ... :'3


Soujuurou the Super Backyard Cleaner: Last time, Alice gave Soujuurou a mighty slap for letting his guard down and allowing Touko, an enemy magus, to have free access to Alice's workshop. Soujuurou for his part felt deep shame and regret; and Alice matches this, feeling terrible for the slap. Our next chapter begins ... with Alice spying Soujuurou cleaning the backyard. And when I say "cleaning", I can't really narrow it down to one English verb. Because this guy cleans, clears, and de-weeds. He operates at an inhumanly fast pace, and his stamina is even more impressive. But he go go goes and before long he's amassed a mountain of trash bags filled with dead brush, roots, and weeds. Alice peeks furtive glances at Soujuurou over the top of her book. She feigns indifference whilst unable to take her eyes off of him. In just thirty minutes, he manages to clear the entire courtyard.

But when Soujuurou says this to Aoko, after returning inside:
Soujuurou: You really have no intention of helping me, do you? I mean, I do enjoy cleaning, but...I don't know... Don't you even feel a little bit guilty using a roommate like this? Or do you just not feel guilt at all?
The mood shifts from mirthful frivolity to icy cold seriousness. Aoko replies:
Aoko: Soujuurou. Let me explain it. One. More. Time. Don't be mistaken. We're not letting you stay here out of kindness. We're putting up with you, because we have to.
And when Soujuurou continues to bemoan that he has to do "all the work" ...


...Aoko activates the enchanted dog collar, and chokes him. Shizuki Soujuurou and Aozaki Aoko -- a clueless nice guy and a sadist.

As Soujuurou glumly returns to his work, Alice lovingly watches from the sunroom and is reminded of her childhood home. She experiences a wave of nostalgia and questions why. (<3 Soujuurou, BE A FAMILY...!)

When Alice asks Aoko why she is so needlessly cruel to Soujuurou, Aoko reminds Alice that they're going to be erasing Soujuurou's memories. This feels like the author setting the stage for the girls' eventual change of heart.


Hair: Soujuurou makes an off-hand comparison of Aoko's hair to Touko's. This leads to a Word-of-God lore explanation about how hair works in the Nasuverse. Apparently:
Aoko: Mages can use their hair as a weapon. For the longest time, hair and eyes have been vital to magecraft. Especially in [Touko]'s case. The more colorful the eyes, the better. The longer the hair, the higher the quality. Hair has the same qualities as the body, and when grown over many years it becomes a strong base component.
Locally, this accomplishes a few things all at once. It establishes that Aozaki Aoko in the future, with her long lustrous red hair that goes well past her waist, is a Big Deal™ in some sense. �� It foreshadows that Aozaki Touko in the present, with the shortest hair we've ever seen her have, must be up to something.

But more globally, it presents curiosities. There are the logically consistent ones, like "Cornelius Alba had super long hair probably because of these rules" and "Ooh, Medusa =o" with her ankle-length rich purple hair.



Beautiful long hair is beautiful serious business.

And then there are the logically inconsistent ones, like "Why would Matou Zouken allow Sakura to cut her hair?" "Why would Tohsaka Rin not have grown her hair out longer by 2004?" "Why does Medea not have hair that rivals Medusa's in length?" "Why would Circe cut her hair as a getting-over-him act when getting over Odysseus?"

Basically:
  • any time a Nasuverse character who can perform magic or magecraft has long hair, we can now go "Ahhhhhh, makes sense!"
  • but any time one doesn't, we have to pretend like there are valid explanations in universe that would justify parting from such an amazing resource for what can at times only best be described as an イメチェン "image change"
I dunno. It just seems silly. The Rule of Cool™ strikes once again. Nasu invents a rule for his universe with far-reaching consequences that he didn't want to consider at the time, he only wanted to try and tie Touko's own image change (from a fan's perspective, between Kara no Kyoukai OL tomboy Touko and Mahoyo Victorian Librarian Touko) to the plot.

Although speaking of wanting to set things up for the plot...
Alice had never been defeated by a familiar. She sighed at Aoko's overconfidence.

Alice: Aoko, even if [Touko] uses her twenty-year stockpile, she can only use small animals as vessels.
Welp. ^^;

And while we're on the topic of "Hmmmm..."-inducing lines…
Aoko: If [Touko]'s used all her hair before coming here, then yes. Long hair can be used in tons of ways. I can only use it to temporarily reinforce magecraft, but my sister can use it to complement longer-lasting spells. With all those thoughts and memories in that hair, it's like having a mage clone. You can even use it on a dead dog or cat, reviving them and making them the mage's familiar.
...

...

Are you kidding me. I told Yuki, this is such a BokuMachi situation. lol
Aoko: Familiars with no previous magical energy, like said dog or cat, can acquire Magic Circuits. All thanks to the hair. The reanimated creature becomes something entirely different. They can even speak and take human form.
COME ON!
Soujuurou felt that a familiar was little different than himself.
Nasu is just toying with us at this point. ^^;


"My sister has always been a rune user": In the previous chapter, if I recall correctly, we see Touko using rune magic at the coffee table with Soujuurou. We haven't really seen Aozaki Touko using runes before this (i.e. in Kara no Kyoukai and in Fate/stay night), but with scenes like that and lines like this one, it seems that my prediction -- that Touko might be the key to erasing Soujuurou's memories -- might be correct. The girls are after a rune that will erase Soujuurou's memory. Touko is the rune expert. Seems simple enough.


She wanted to say "good-bye": So Aoko heads for the sigil in Toukawa, while Alice heads for the one in Yashirogi. They figure that Touko will head to one while she'll appoint her familiar to head to the other. Shortly after her arrival at Yashirogi, Alice hears howling in the distance. And then...
The phone rang.
It was perhaps the first time it had rung since Soujuurou moved into the mansion. Hesitantly, he picked up the receiver and brought it to his ear.
He heard nothing. He felt he had to say something, but could not think what. Maybe something like, "Hello? Kuonji residence!" Or maybe, "You've reached the Aozaki residence"?
While he was deep in thought, a voice as light as air came through the receiver.

Alice: Shizuki.....kun?

Soujuurou could barely hear the voice, but it was definitely Alice's.

Soujuurou: Yes. Is that you, Alice?
Alice: ...

No response. The silence was as profound as the night, but for the sound of static from the receiver.
After a long pause, Alice finally spoke.

Alice: Aoko...is she there?
Soujuurou: No, she hasn't come back yet.
Alice: I see.

With a click, the call ended.
Soujuurou wondered if she had something to say, but could not respond in time.
Slowly they advanced, carving through the fresh snow.

There were so many. Where had they all come from?

Dozens of feral dogs snarled at Alice, their eyes trained on her. The snow clung to the beasts' mangy fur. Their clenched fangs and bloodshot eyes hid a barely-reined hunger that might burst forth like lightning at any moment. They yearned to taste her warm flesh, and satiate their empty bellies.

To them, the girl in black stood like a lighthouse in a stormy sea.
T_T

Just the way he says it ... The way it's all presented ... The sound effects with the massive pack of dogs barking and snarling ... The voice acting, with Soujuurou's cruelly neutral and dispassionate tone meeting Alice's quiet, weak inquiries ... The line in particular, "There were so many. Where had they all come from?", something and everything about it has that feel of a person's thoughts, a person who is meeting their end as we speak and who didn't expect to and can still hardly believe it …

And the song ... the song, man ... it's the main theme song, but the melancholic, "This is the end of the line. I'm not going to make it ;(" version. It's absolutely a character's death song -- Alice's death song -- as she exits the story. It's sad, man.


"Hey, Diddle Diddle": Despite the situation already looking grim, Alice finds her composure and calls out into the night. Touko presents herself, and immediately the scene just oozes craftsmanship. How Touko speaks, the things she says, the way she holds herself ... it is all so perfectly written. Nasu's really outdone himself here.

Simultaneously sincere and plotting, Touko entreats Alice to some light conversation. But Alice is having none of it.
Touko: So, how shall we do this, Alice? We have so much to catch up on. How have you been? There's so much I've been dying to tell you. You can spare five minutes, can't you?
Alice: I'm afraid not. If I give you even the slightest quarter, you will steal it all.
And with that, Alice draws the Ploy Kickshaw vessel for Diddle Diddle, her crystal Egyptian kitty that has become iconic by this point. She deploys it. It gently hurtles towards the ground. And...

...shatters on impact -- not with the ground, but with dozens upon dozens of runes.
Touko: I spent the day carving characters into the park. The brick path meant it was easy work, if a little time consuming. Look at the woods around here. Roughly a twelve hundred square foot blank canvas. Impressive, isn't it? Right now, you and I are right on top of three hundred thousand characters' worth of runes.
It is at precisely this moment ... that both audience and Alice alike realize the gravity of the situation:

Touko's crazy. ��

Sure, it might have been "easy", she says, but ... as many as three hundred thousand characters ... There are only 3,600 seconds in one hour. To draw as many as 300,000 characters ... would take approximately 83 hours at a rate of one rune per second.

The problem gets worse:
Alice: How in the world did you hide them all?

There were just so many. What kind of magecraft could do that?

Touko: Oh, these are special. These runes shift location -- they're doing it even now. They look like simple scratches, but they return to their original form when they touch strong magical energy. You could call them "memory runes".
As Touko continues to explain her technique, Alice can only clench her teeth and grimace.
She spoke modestly, but Alice could not imagine the amount of persistence, technique, and skill it must have taken.

And it only took a day. Even ten mages would have trouble producing so many sophisticated runes in that time.

Moreover, these runes were made using unknown techniques the Association had not approved.
Reader and Alice alike realize... that Touko's mad. She's playing for keeps. She intends to win at all costs. Whether her opponent is a grasshopper or a demigod, it makes no difference -- she plans to crush it under foot with the full weight of her power and technique. No expense shall be spared, no technique wasted, no knowledge not put to good use. Touko is fully committed to this fight and it will take everything Alice Kuonji can muster if she hopes to make it out of here alive. =<

It happened in the blink of an eye.
Alice Kuonji's Mystic Eyes: Playtime's over. With hundreds of dogs awaiting their master's orders and hundreds of thousands of ploy-inhibiting runes lining every inch and surface of the park, Alice is just a breath away from death. But Touko says something that triggers Alice... "There were times when I admired that body of yours. To have one like that..." And that... was a line that should not have been crossed.

Alice Kuonji launches her Mystic Eyes of Enthralling against Aozaki Touko, restricting her from any musculoskeletal movement. Nasu proceeds to explain what makes Alice's execution so impressive while Fukasawa Hideyuki strikes up "Rinbu/Witch Tale", and it's JUST. SO. GOOD!

Fukasawa Hideyuki: Quick tangent here, 'cause I just want to say -- Fukasawa really deserves top credit here. He is without a doubt in my mind the single greatest addition to Type-Moon since the team's founding. I've already gushed at length in previous posts about two others of his tracks he uses in tense, exciting moments. To list all three, in increasing order of finality:Each of these tracks is for me a modern-day "EMIYA" i.e. Unlimited Blade Works. Your mileage will of course vary, but I can't tell you how many times I have already listened to each of these songs. Dozens. Perhaps already one hundred.

Fukasawa is a master of tone. He understands music theory so well that instruments, chords, tempo -- all are putty in his hands, to be moulded and sculpted as he sees fit, to create the tone that the scene requires.

It still amazes me that this is the same man who fumbled Unlimited Blade Works (2014)'s soundtrack so badly. We were all pretty disappointed that Kajiura Yuki did not reprise her role as chief ufotable Type-Moon composer, after having so utterly knocked the ball out of the park on Fate/Zero. We all gave Fukasawa a chance and ... hmm. Years went by, and it wasn't until 2021 when, playing Tsukihime: a piece of blue glass moon (the Tsukihime remake), I discovered his name again. TsukiRe's soundtrack, completely blows me away. Mahoyo's soundtrack, completely blows me away. His contributions to Fate/Grand Order, absolutely blow me away. The same way that Haga Keita achieved legend status among FSN fans with "EMIYA", Fukasawa achieved legend status among FGO fans with a song not even originally written for FGO -- "at the garden", a simple but powerful piece that oozes the fairy tale of King Arthur, of Camelot, and was used not once but twice in Fate/Grand Order to make readers cry.

Of all the tracks of his I've so far encountered, the one for me I consider to be his magnum opus has still got to be "Head of Household's Elegant Moment" from TsukiRe:


It does everything it's supposed to do -- it's supposed to be the character song of Tohno Akiha:
  • it is the very sort of Chopin-sounding piano piece for piano students that you would expect the ojou of a Japanese aristocratic family to have been taught during her piano lessons
  • the performance of the piece perfectly mimics the sincerity of the student to attempt perfection but to not quite reach it, sabotaged by clumsy fingerings and lack of prodigal talent. The weight placed into certain keys, the pick-ups and slow-downs in tempo in certain places, it all feels so sincerely like something I'd expect to hear from a skilled-but-not-prodigal piano student
  • all of the practice that goes into getting here... all of the sacrifices... all of the suffering...
  • and above all else, it is a beautiful melody... ='>
My words fail me. I can't do the song justice. It's just so perfect.

And now that I am playing Mahoyo, I can see for myself that Fukasawa hasn't had one or two happy accidents -- UBW 2014 is pretty much his only misstep in an otherwise impeccable career with Type-Moon. I'm so happy for him, I'm delighted he rebounded after that, and I can't wait to see what he has in store for us with TsukiRe Far Side.

Okay, back to Chapter 10!


Touko Enthralled: So here, when all hope seemed lost, with dozens of dogs ready to tear Alice limb from limb and hundreds of thousands of runes preventing the use of her trusty Ploy Kickshaws, Alice calls upon the power of her Mystic Eyes of Enthrallment to bind Touko.

This lasts... all of a few seconds. ^^;


Alice Mesmerized: Touko cancels the effects of Alice's Mystic Eyes ... with Mystic Eyes of her own. ^_^; Her Mystic Eyes of Mesmerize. ("Mesmer-eyes"? ) "Cancel" may not be the best word -- perhaps it's simply better to think of it as the playground hand-pile game, whoever's Mystic Eyes can wind up on top wins? And Touko now seems to be winning.

But something's not right...
Surely nobody could beat [Alice]. And yet... Her unfiltered stock of magical energy, stifled by old-fashioned values, was no match for Touko's madness.
If Alice's magical energy is so much greater than Touko's, then ... what's going on here? Alice thought that she could allow Touko's eyes to graze her and pass right through her. She did not expect to be caught in a snare, and for the snare to seemingly grow exponentially tighter with each passing second...


Mirrors pointing at mirrors:
Touko had placed opposing mirrors inside her eyes, resulting in an infinite glare. It was the act of a madwoman. Creating Mystic Eyes within Mystic Eyes... She could even control the resulting chaos caused by all the copies. Her insanity knew no bounds. No mage in their right mind would mass-produce so many Mystics -- the last escape of humankind -- so indiscriminately!
By the time Mahoyo was released, it had already been established in other Type-Moon works that Mystic Eyes are rare -- so rare that people would kill to have them. Years later, in the Lord El-Melloi II Case Files spin-off series, it would be further explored that mages actually seek out Mystic Eyes plucked from the skulls of their previous owners and place them inside their own, Maximillion Pegasus-style. >_<

Touko was born with Mystic Eyes. She had no need to steal someone else's nor to try and turn ordinary, Muggle eyes into Mystic Eyes. And even had she tried to do this, it would have likely not worked. The sale of Mystic Eyes is something of a black market affair -- being Mystics, various organizations have interests in sealing them away from use -- and if it were easy to just give yourself Mystic Eyes then, why, anyone who wanted them would do it.

So the idea of fucking with your natural-born Mystic Eyes is just completely insane. Why would you risk that. Why would you risk fucking up such a priceless gift?

But something else that has also been previously explored in earlier Type-Moon works ... is the fact that Aozaki Touko is no stranger to self-experimentation. Let me be clearer -- by the 1990s, she has already mastered the ability to create 1:1 replicas of her body, a feat that already places her as an Omega-class magus, to borrow from X-Men. Here is a younger Touko, a less experienced Touko ... but she is still Touko. Here we are witnessing the origin story of the great Aozaki, terrible and powerful. One can hardly claim to make perfect replicas of oneself ... if one can't reproduce the Mystic Eyes that one was born with, can they?

Aozaki Touko didn't become able to reproduce Mystic Eyes because she wanted to artificially produce Mystic Eyes -- she became able to reproduce Mystic Eyes because she wanted to be able to reproduce herself. And since she was born with Mystic Eyes, well... "Gotta git gud, scrub." And git gud she got.


The concept of Touko's self-modification is simple enough. When I was a child, my aunt and uncle had two mirrors in their master bathroom, one each on opposite walls. It created the infinity effect where, when you look at one of the two mirrors, you can see what appear to be infinite iterations of yourself and the rest of the room in line of sight. This is what Touko has done -- she's "placed opposing mirrors inside her eyes, resulting in an infinite glare."
She wielded power without limit to disable an opponent. Once one was caught in them, one was chained to the concept of infinity. Projection-type eyes had a fatal flaw: their firepower and formulae were insignificant compared to the great artillery of incanted spells. But Touko had torn down that conventional wisdom with brute strength.

If the gun was a pea-shooter, she simply needed to bring more guns. A 9-millimeter bullet could never destroy a fortress... unless one threw a fortress' mass of bullets at it. The principle was brutishly simple, but in the world of magecraft where concepts decided supremacy, Touko had created the perfect weapon.
Incredible. Elegantly simple and effective. And terrifying. Oh so terrifying. There's no such thing as being "grazed" here -- even the smallest contact with her eyes would now mean KERBLAMMERS!

Just how is Alice going to make it out of this one!? >_<


Cock Robin: Touko asks Alice if she has any last words. Alice grimaces in pain. Touko draws runes in the air, preparing a killing strike out of wind. And...

In a spectacularly fleeting moment, Robin flies to his Angel Mum's rescue and migawaris himself in place of her. (Or was he always there from the start? I thought it was this one until revisiting the scene for the post and...now I'm not so sure. ^_^; It sure seems like they imply that he swooped in and saved her...but it wouldn't make much sense for him to be able to exchange places with her like this after the fact of her capture by Touko's Mystic Eyes, would it?)

Feathers go flying everywhere. "Alice"'s dress is torn to shreds. And as the last of Touko's Mystic Eyes attack takes effect, poor Robin ... drops dead.
Touko: You used a double? I've never heard of a Ploy that can take the form of a mage.
Alice: Well, you have now. He's useless every other day of the year, but comes in handy when someone's trying to kill you.
So the seemingly useless Robin... His entire purpose was to serve as a get-out-of-jail-free card for Alice. No matter the circumstance, "If Alice were to die, then instead...Robin would die in her place." And the game then hits us with something I'm ashamed to admit I never even considered before this moment: Robin's nursery rhyme origin.

""Who killed Cock Robin?" is an English nursery rhyme in which a variety of forest animals discuss the death and funeral arrangements of one eponymous Cock Robin. I've never heard this nursery rhyme in all my life, but still. "Man... :'D" I said. The Chekhov's gun of Alice's Ploy Kickshaws. Robin was sitting there the entire time, just begging to be researched and for us to come up with a hypothesis as to what purpose he played in the story besides comically intense admirer of the Kuonji women. And I just never did. ^_^; I just assumed he was an amusing familiar and I left it at that. Whoops. ^^; orz

...But wait a minute. Did you just say... Robin died? �� Oh no... This is so sad... =(

...No wonder we needed to do The Wonderful World of Ploys Parts 1 and 2 first! I'll bet Robin's dead by the time we get to 3! ^_^; lol

...But wait a minute times two. Touko states that Alice can only use Robin once like this. Now that he's dead... What's to stop Touko from firing up her Mystic Eyes again and pointing them this time at the real Alice?

Goodness gracious, Alice Kuonji! Now what will you do!?


The Thames Troll: As Touko readies to ensnare Alice within her Mystic Eyes of Mesmerize once more, Alice starts to sing a familiar nursery rhyme. It's "London Bridge". All of a sudden, giant fingers belonging to the massive bridge troll start to rise from out of the ground in between Touko and Alice, bricks tumbling into one another with their characteristic ceramic tink sound. (Song: "Kengen/Great Three")

Touko is confused. And PISSED. "What the hell is this!? What is this guy doing here!?" As Nasu tells us, "Touko was so angry and confused she could barely gather her thoughts."

That's because the Meinsters' ultimate bodyguard, the Thames Troll, requires a river to be nearby in order to be summoned. And Yashirogi Park ... is nowhere near a river. So why, then... HOW...

The five kitty kats. The five priceless heirlooms that Alice threw onto the ground and discarded, allowing to be destroyed by Touko's sun runes. She did it on purpose. As the sun runes activate, they melt the new-fallen snow. And melted snow ... forms a small puddle of water. Arrange five puddles in a row, and ... you get a thin trickle. A "brooklet". A "stream", if we're being generous.

And that is all Alice needs to summon the troll. In the most forced of arguments , the conditions for the summons are satisfied that Alice Kuonji has called upon the Thames Troll near a "river". And out of the ground the Thames Troll rises. "The monster's torso alone surpassed eighty feet," we're told -- the troll towers above Touko at least a hundred twenty feet in height. He brings his great big powerful arms down to the ground with mighty slams and rubs them along the bricks, destroying Touko's pain-stakingly crafted runework before absorbing their ceramic heft into his body, growing and gaining more power with each brick he takes.
Touko: "HALT!!!!" She unleashed her stacked Mystic Eyes. They were meaningless at this stage; they had no effect on the giant.

As said, Mystic Eyes can be countered in two ways. The first is to hide oneself from view of the mage. That was the standard response. The other way, however, was devilishly simple yet one-hundred percent effective. In fact, it's less of a way and more of a fact. Mystic Eyes curse a target by focusing on them. However, what if the target was too large to focus on entirely?

The answer was... One could barely stop a single arm.
Nasu gives us this cheeky little Word of God lore declaration here. Apparently it's always been a thing that Mystic Eyes...can only work on a target so long as the entire target is in focus. Huh. Whatever. ^_^; We'll roll with it. ='> So while Touko's eyes are powerful enough to lock a witch down ... they're simply incapable of restraining a being as large and as close-range as the Thames Troll is to Touko in that moment.

And before a second cour of the Thames Troll's theme song can get underway, the fight is over.

Alice Kuonji ... has won.


Beo: Sensing their master's defeat, the pack of dogs starts to bay once more. Touko admits defeat to Alice and says they'll have to pick this up some other time. Acting like she never had any doubts about her victory, Alice asks Touko, "Do you really think you can escape?" To which Touko replies -- not only is she confident in her planned escape, but:
Touko: I should mention -- I don't think I'm the one who needs to escape.
o_o !?
There was no hint of bravado in Touko's tone. Even in the face of a titan she had no means of harming, her confidence was unshakable. The reason being...

"The opening act's over. Come out, Beo."

...This was no longer a battle of skill. A fight for survival had begun.
Touko snaps her fingers. Something howls to the Moon, then appears before Alice, its massive paws gently crunching the snow underfoot as it makes its way to its master's side.


Nasu confirms that Beo is a Divine Beast. "A recreation of a miracle that once freely walked the earth -- the natural enemy of magecraft, able to crush it with ease."

Now we know what Aozaki Touko did with all that hair. Just as the girls suspected, she acquired a powerful familiar. But what exactly is Beo? And how is he going to help Touko defeat the Thames Troll?
Quiet resignation settled over Alice's face. The golden beast charged.

This time, she didn't even have a chance to admit defeat.



Farewell, Little Red Riding Hood: HE STARTS TO EAT HER. What a fucking way to go. =(
The battle between Alice and the wolf was over before it had begun. After destroying the troll, it baptized Alice with its wicked claws, giving her no chance to escape. Its side-swipe had torn into her abdomen like a sword, carving through her clothes and flesh, all the way to her heart.
We lost Flat Snark ... we lost Diddle Diddle ... we lost Cock Robin ... and now, it seems, we've even lost the mighty Thames Troll.

Worse still ... we've lost our precious Angel Mum. ;(

What a way to go. I don't think we've ever seen anything quite like this before in a Fate work. I mean, sure, we've seen gruesome deaths and terrible ways to go also, but being eaten alive? (Technically Alice isn't being eaten alive -- Beo swiped her abdomen open with his claws and, before he can attempt any actual eating, Touko stops him. So technically this is no more gruesome than any other disembowelments we might have seen caused by weapons in battle. Still, though! The intention to eat is definitely implied imo with the visual and with the textual descriptions of his mouth, teeth, saliva, etc.)

Shortly after Alice regains consciousness, Beo goes for a killing blow -- he opens his maw, places Alice's neck in between his jaws, and... Touko sternly forbids him from killing Alice. Beo is disappointed but obedient -- the extent of any defiance he might have shown Touko is a mere "Tcheh =\", expressing that killing the prey is the best part.

Over the course of the scene, we discover that Beo:
  • is a sentient, intelligent, talking wolf
  • more accurately, he's a werewolf -- the last of his kind
  • Touko met Beo in Scandinavia ("the northern European tundra")
  • Beo does not defy Touko
And...
Touko: Incidentally, Beo called these other mutts in. Naturally, I didn't think they'd have any effect on a Meinster's daughter. For now, at least.

Touko's mouth twisted like a grin. Not the warm one Soujuurou saw, but the merciless smile a victor displays to a loser. The disdain in Alice's eyes turned to anger.
Alice is less angry to have been defeated, and more angry that Touko brought a golden Mystic into the world of Men.
Touko: Come now, it's just supply and demand. Depopulation is not just a human problem. Their old ways were unsustainable, and so I bought him for a high price. Well, more like I had to pay for the right to bring him out of his cave. As you might've guessed, I used my hair for the contract with Beo. I like to think of it as creating an alliance with a beast instead of creating a famili[ar].
Hmm. But before Touko can continue, Alice's body does something miraculous: it starts to heal itself. Squelching noises can be heard as her abdominal viscera start to reassemble. We learn from Touko that Alice is essentially the Nasuverse version of Wolverine, the mutant powers of James Howlett and the terrible suffering he underwent in the Weapon X project rolled into one. Alice's mother engraved Alice's bones, veins, and internal organs with Magic Crests. Touko explains that when it comes to spellcasting, having the Magic Crest reduces the necessary time to incant the spell. Pretty convenient for the magi of Nasu's Nasuverse, always finding themselves in do-or-die duels. But there's a trade-off, Touko tells us -- Magic Crests tend to cause pain where they are located. If the heir to the family bears his or her Magic Crest in their right arm, say -- as the Aozakis we're told do -- then their right arm is always going to hurt. Well that sucks. =\ Yeah... So in Alice's case... her entire body is engraved with these things. Soooo... ��

Touko has a really great quote here that also gives us a bit of a lore tease with her background:
Touko: Still, when you've come this far, pain becomes trivial. It makes it difficult to know if you're really alive. Do you still believe you're human? Honestly, I sympathize. We've both had a hard time with such extraordinary teachers, haven't we, Alice?
Hmm... Cemented by the "Honestly, I sympathize" bit, I would say that everything before the word "honestly" feels like Touko is talking about herself, reflecting about her own life circumstances and situations and relating to Alice through them. It makes me want to know more about what Touko has been through. I also wonder who she's referring to when she speaks of her own "extraordinary teacher". Is it her grandfather? Is it someone she met on her travels after she ran away from home?

Another interesting line Touko provides us with is...
Touko: I'm indebted to your Meinster mother. And my true opponent has only ever been Aoko.
First off: Touko seems awfully fond of the word "Meinster"! If you were to scrape the script for Mahoutsukai no Yoru for all instances of the word "Meinster", you would probably find that 90% of them come from Aozaki Touko.

Second, yeah, I am interested to know Touko's relationship with Alice's mother. In a lot of ways, Touko often acts like she is one of those "auntie sisters", someone who is technically/biologically Aoko's "sister" but who is so much older -- at least a decade -- that she's more of an aunt than a sister. In other ways, the opposite is true, and Touko absolutely fits her role as Aoko's older-but-only-slightly-older sister. Whenever Alice's mother comes up, Touko definitely feels more "auntie sister"y to me than she does "sister sister"y. You have an adult woman, and your have her child daughter: what sort of person has a closer relationship with the mother than with the daughter whom she is only four years older than? The closest thing I can come up with is a babysitter. Was ... was Touko Alice's babysitter? O.o Do they even have babysitters in magi households!? ��

Third, the fact that Touko establishes Aoko has her only "true opponent" is an interesting statement. Everyone else either isn't an opponent or else isn't a "true" opponent.

Well, since you're indebted to Alice's mother, Touko, what are you going to do? You just sicked a werewolf on Alice who tore her abdomen wide open. Thankfully she's Logan and is healing bit by bit, but... How do you plan to fix this?


The rape scene:
Alice's lungs pined for oxygen; Touko pressed her lips to hers. The young girl wriggled, trying to escape, but Touko held her firmly.

Beneath the blue moon, the two remained frozen. Then, the sound of swallowing. Something solid slid down Alice's throat. With that, she went limp and her arm fell.
TOUKO. This is now the SECOND time you've gone and done something rapey this game! And this time ... it's pretty much rape!

Touko tells Alice that what she slid down her throat was a lozenge with a "special blend of rowan" of Touko's own making. Touko explains that if Alice uses magical energy, the rowan will explode, "so do be careful." Sooo ... your way of repaying your debt to Alice's mother ... is to French kiss Alice against her will, to have her swallow a lozenge in a state where she can't fight back, and said lozenge is a bomb!? You're going to blow up her daughter as.....TOUKO! THAT'S NOT THE SORT OF "REPAYING A DEBT" I...! THAT'S "PAYBACK"! I thought you were Aozaki Touko, not Touko Lannister! I'm starting to wonder if Touko really is so fond of Mrs. Kuonji after all ...
Touko: Oh, and... don't read too much into it. Passing things with my mouth is just something I like to do.
WHAT!? �� Who says something like this!? Who does something like this!? "Passing things with my mouth is JUST SOMETHING I LIKE TO DO"!? �� ��
As she desperately clung to consciousness, Alice looked up at Touko from the ground. The disgrace from the kiss was greater than the pain she felt in her body.
That second line's a really great one. Simple and solid. Perhaps someone would say it's cliché, but for me it pretty much perfectly establishes the nature and severity of what has transpired.

Something I don't understand, though: how come Alice's auto-heal doesn't detonate the bomb? Why doesn't Touko's lozenge activate in the presence of Alice's incredibly active Magic Crests? We're told that the lozenge activates if Alice "uses" magic. What does it mean to "use" magic, exactly? Does Nasu mean to say "actively use magic"? Does passive use not apply? It's all make-believe anyway so I'm not too fussed! I just want a little consistency is all! ^_^; If I'm told a bomb activates in the presence of used magic, then I want to know why Magic Crests carved over every square inch of a girl's internals, firing like crazy in the wake of an evisceration, do not count as "used magic". *shrug*


A Lannister sending her regards: Touko turns to Alice and says:
Touko: Ah! I almost forgot. Remember those mutts Beo called? There's a ton of them around the park, and unfortunately they're still hungry.
WHAT.
Touko: In a roundabout way, Touko had read Alice her last rites.
YEAH!?
In Nature, it was common for the weak that could no longer move to offer their bodies up to feed the strong.

Touko: Well, Alice, I think that's everything. It's a long walk back, but hopefully you make it safely.
...Hoooold on a second. ��

What's going on here? She's lost, then she's won. She says she owes Alice's mother a debt, then she forces a grenade down Alice's throat and offers her up to a pack of ravenous dogs. Then she says, "I think that's everything" and "hopefully you make it safely"? �� Something's not right...

As Alice lies there in the snow, consciousness fading, the dogs growing ever louder, her eyes land on the phone booth.

A call is placed home. Soujuurou picks up.

...It's TOUKO! That son of a bitch Nasu got us! What a bizarre but highly effective time for a fake-out! ^_^;

While they discuss other things first, I'm gonna jump straight ahead to this part:
Touko: I met Miss Kuonji a short while ago. She called you earlier, didn't she? Well, right now, she's in bad shape. She can barely walk, in fact. And if she uses any crests, they'll tear her to pieces. Oh, and those broken bones... ouch. At any rate, she could lose consciousness any time. Not great news with all those scary stray dogs around her.

--If you ask me, she has about ten minutes before she's nothing but a pile of bones.
Soujuurou clenches the receiver in his hand and winces. Why had he not realized it sooner!?, he berates himself.
Alice had been calling for help. Even when backed into a corner, she had not wanted to involve Soujuurou. Still... she needed help. The way she said his name so lightly...
Soujuurou demands to know where she is.


The choice that wasn't: Touko then provides Soujuurou with an ultimatum. "I can tell you, but just know that the moment I do, you become my enemy. Do we have a deal?"
Soujuurou realized what was happening. He was being tested. By ignoring Alice, he would be confirming that he did not want to get involved.
It was at exactly this moment that I realized -- holy shit, this is the game's one choice. =O Either you choose to go and rescue Alice despite the impossible odds -- the ten minutes on the clock, the half-eaten abdomen, the pack of ravenous dogs -- or else you choose to go to Aoko -- to at least offer some reinforcement to the one who isn't forgone at this time. Had this been a traditional Type-Moon VN and this choice come earlier, this would have been a strong contender for the fork in the road between two paths -- "the Aoko path" and "the Alice path". Coming as late as it does, it has to be a choice between two different endings.

The choice was easy. With all due respect to Aoko, of course I was going to pick Alice! How could you not? After all we'd just witnessed. Plus... Alice x Soujuurou is so much more wholesome than Aoko x Soujuurou anyway. ^_^;

...I say the choice was easy, but... it was even easier than I had thought. ^^; It was impossibly easy, you might say. Infinitely easy. Because ... in the end ... it was literally no choice at all. Type-Moon didn't place a choice here. There's no flag. There's no split in the path. There is the one, only outcome, the one that all players of the game experience.

And what, pray tell, was that choice? What was his decision?
Soujuurou: Tell me, where is she?

Soujuurou ignored Touko's question. Of course he was not prepared to become her enemy, but he was even less prepared to let Alice die. He had lost his ability to think sensibly, not that he was particularly good about that to begin with. Still, he would not waste any time in deliberation. He would simply go with his instincts.

It was one of the few times he had felt pride since coming down from the mountains.
Touko responds with a sincerely heavy, sad sigh. She tells Soujuurou she's disappointed by his decision, as she didn't want to have to kill him. But then her voice turns to steel as she tells Soujuurou, "Yashirogi Nature Park. Check the map under the phone. I bookmarked the page the last time I was there." (Dayum, girl! ) And then...
Touko: I'll say it again: you'll be lucky if you have ten minutes. It'll be a miracle if she lasts a minute longer.
Soujuurou considers that it normally takes twelve minutes to get from the mansion to the train station in Misaki. That by the time he'd disembark at Yashirogi's train station, it'd be half an hour at least. Touko tells Soujuurou he may as well cut his losses -- but that either way, he's made his choice and is now her enemy. "Just don't regret your choice."
The line went dead. Soujuurou, not Touko, had hung up the phone. He memorized the map and then made for the door. With no time to grab his coat, he ran out into the snowy winter night with the clothes he had on. All that remained in the hall was the discarded map. It showed Misaki City. It was about ten miles from the mansion to the nature park; five if you went in a straight line, but the streets were not that forgiving.
Soujuurou has to cover five miles whilst scaling unfavorable terrain (fences, buildings, thick brush, etc) or else ten miles whilst racing along city streets ... in one minute. Say he can do the five. Five miles in one minute ... speed-wise, is the equivalent of course of 300 miles per hour. O_o How...!? As if the chapter had not already been exciting enough, this I think is where we finally start to see the veil slipping off of Soujuurou, as Nasu readies to reveal to us who or what Soujuurou truly is. Is he the cat!? Is he a robo? Is he something else? Who can say. Regardless ... 300 mph, *whistles*. That is fast.


One last wish: The scene returns to Yashirogi Nature Park, where the pack of dogs is barking and baying at Alice without pause. Dinner is so close they can taste it. All they need her to do is close her eyes...

Alice drags herself to the telephone booth. And Nasu informs us...
Alice's injuries were not limited to her abdomen. The wolf had punched a hole straight through to her back, crushing her lower vertebrae and leaving both of her legs paralyzed. Though her Magic Crests were repairing the damage, it would likely take another hour before recovery. At the very least, her heart and slender arms still worked. Although, after crawling along the ground to the phone booth, those too were failing her.
. The image of Alice Kuonji grabbing clumps of grass and mud as she drags her mangled body towards the telephone booth... ;(
Alice wrestled with the discomfort from her abdomen and her Magic Crests, and with her consciousness holding on by a thread, she took the phone in her hand. It was unlikely Aoko would be there to pick up. Even so, with the stray dogs gathering around the booth, she had to try.

It was Soujuurou who picked up. Alice knew she was better off just hanging up, but his name slipped out of her mouth. After pausing and fighting with herself for some time, an image of the innocent boy came to mind, and she hung up. Her instincts had won out. She could not let him get involved.
Stop. =o What is going on here? Did Alice place two phone calls home tonight, or just one? The phone call we witnessed earlier, where she inquired about Aoko... Here, in this scene, is she merely recollecting that? Or is it actually transpiring here, now, in this place at this time? How can this be...? Surely it wouldn't be Alice placing a calm phone call home with her entrails hanging out and while Touko politely waits her turn ... followed by Touko calling Soujuurou after a few-minutes pause. Surely not. Surely the order was Alice called originally when the pack of dogs arrived, then her duel with Touko took place, then Touko called and spoke with Soujuurou while Alice lay dying on the ground.

But if that is the case, then... what is happening here? Is she hallucinating? Is she imagining Soujuurou picking up the phone on the other end and answering?

I'm not entirely sure. But one thing is abundantly clear -- in her dying moments, with her last breath, Alice places one final phone call home ... to hear Shizuki Soujuurou's voice one last time. ;( T_T

At least, that's my take and I'm sticking to it!


Important Mystery Place: As Alice starts to lose consciousness, what comes into vision is a field of brilliant white and blue. Flowers as far as the eye can see. The location seems to bear a great resemblance to a certain lunar garden, and the implication is that this may be some of afterlife. Hmm...

We don't stay here long, however. Alice starts to regain consciousness. And...


The Power of Love: ...what comes into vision is not a field of flowers...but rather, the familiar scene of the street winding up along the hill to the Kuonji estate.
Alice: Shizuki......kun?

She could barely comprehend that she was being carried slowly up Shiroinuzuka.

Soujuurou had Alice on his back, and was silently ascending the slope. His calm eyes seemed to be suffering from the bitter cold. He did not seem to be dressed for the time of year. Not even a coat. His exposed neck and hands were ice-cold.

Alice: Wh-What...are you...doing here?

Alice asked, still slumped over his frame. She tried to move, but to no avail. The last thing she wanted was to rest her entire weight on someone else.

Soujuurou: Touko-san called me. She said you were in trouble. You're more stubborn than Aozaki, you know. Why didn't you ask me for help? Not that I could be much help, but still.

Soujuurou spoke with a scolding tone, his eyes kept firmly ahead. His words were directed at himself rather than the girl on his back.

Alice: This... doesn't concern you...
Soujuurou: Maybe you're right. But now it does. We'll talk more back at the house.
Soujuurou explains to Alice that he didn't need to hurry in the end -- the dogs ran for the hills the moment he got there. He surmises that Touko knew that that would happen, and that she didn't seriously intend for Alice to die. That's certainly possible ... but in that case, doesn't that mean that Touko's real target was Soujuurou all along? Like, I'm not trying to be too conspiracy theorist-y here, but like ... if she didn't really intend to kill Alice, but she had to make it seem to both Alice and Soujuurou like Alice was really gonna die ... then doesn't that mean that she was most interested in Soujuurou's response?

...Nasu then shoots this down , stating that Soujuurou was wrong and that "while Touko did not want to kill Alice per se, she would not have cared if she had died."

...Nasu then says, "At least that was the way Alice saw it." Oh come on! Sneaky bastard! Which one is it!?

Nasu:

Alice firmly believes that if Soujuurou had not made it there in time, the dogs would have collapsed the telephone booth -- I didn't mention it earlier, but they were hurling themselves at the booth with the full force of their bodies and *THUNK!*ing it, trying to break through the glass and get to the girl inside. I'm in agreement with Alice. If it was all just an act on Touko's part and the dogs' part, and Touko really didn't mean for Alice to die, boy... she sure expertly walked the razor's edge!

As they continue their walk up the hill, Alice realizes something.
Alice: ...So you carried me all the way from the park?
Soujuurou: Had to. The trains stopped running. I should've gotten a taxi, but didn't bring my wallet.
Soujuurou may be strong... but we're asked to believe that he carried a girl on his back for five miles of rough terrain or else ten miles of smooth terrain and that he's not the least bit tired? Dude. This guy has divine stamina. Something's up.

They continue to talk. Soujuurou says he's never realized how limiting money is until today. Alice is puzzled.
Alice: ...Don't you mean how important money is?
Soujuurou: What I mean is, if there's something you can use only if you have money, isn't that incredibly limiting?
Alice: ...

The innocence of his question made Alice briefly forget her pain. She, too, felt distant from the real world, but compared to the boy carrying her, she felt like a regular citizen.

Alice: That's just like you to say.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the exact moment at which Alice Kuonji becomes hopelessly, permanently in love with Shizuki Soujuurou. ='> =p =')
Alice smiled to herself. As Alice rested her head, something soft touched her cheek. The collar Aoko had given him.
Oh no. Alice and Aoko... Two girls, in love with the same boy...

When Alice and Soujuurou arrive home:
Looking up at [the front gate], the girl felt a little disappointed. A natural reaction, yet... She could not place where her sadness was coming from.
As if we needed further Word-of-God confirmation. ALICE. LOVES. SOUJUUROU. ='>


Waiting for Word: Alice explains to Soujuurou how rowan works:
Alice: It's a kind of medicinal herb. It gets its name from what's left in the cinders after it's burned seven times in a stove, and it's used as a ward against spirits. It's not good for regular people, but for me and Aoko it's worse. Once it's in our bodies, it reacts badly to the production of magical energy, and there's nothing we can do but wait it out.
Soujuurou: So... it's a poison?
Alice: No, like I said, it was originally used in medicine. I'm using magical energy to heal right now, so I'm having to fight it. But once I'm fully healed, I'll be fine, as long as I don't use magecraft. Basically, I won't be of any use until I fully digest it.
I don't understand. She as much as states that she's "using magical energy to heal right now," yet this doesn't activate the rowan bomb? I understand well the second half of what's going on here -- this is Touko's way of taking Alice out of the fight. Unless Alice has a death wish, she can't use any magic until the rowan is cleared from her system. That much I get. ...But why is she even able to wait for the rowan to clear? Why isn't it violently reacting right now as her Magic Crests vigorously try to piece her back together, one bloody sinew at a time?

Switching gears to the narrative function this rowan serves, as far as I can tell there exist only two possibilities now with Alice. Either:
  1. this is her exit, we'll see more of her next time in Mahoyo 2, ETA 2032 ��
  2. she's yet to die O_o =< and is going to die by actively using magic ("No! ��") to save Soujuurou's life in the upcoming final confrontation
I'm assuming it's 1. But it ain't over 'til it's over. �� The fact that Alice Kuonji has not been much talked about nor much hyped up these past eleven years could simply be due to the comparatively low penetration of Mahoutsukai no Yoru in the Western market ... but it could also be a sign that this game serves as both entrance and exit for the nursery rhyme witch. I... really think it's likeliest to be 1 at this point. I'm placing my bets there! =p I think this is Nasu's way of retiring Alice from the fight for the rest of the game, to justify why it's going to go something like this:
  1. first, Touko vs. Aoko for the second time. Aoko goes in expecting different results, but it's looking like Touko's going to win again... ^_^;
  2. then, it's Soujuurou doing something. Could be Soujuurou vs. Touko. Could be Soujuurou giving a rousing speech to Aoko. Something. Soujuurou contributes in some way.
  3. finally, Aoko awakens from this and supercharges up into her "final form", with her iconic long red hair
If Alice were still available for the final fight, readers would understandably want to know why the trio (Aoko, Alice, and Soujuurou) are not simply dog-piling poor Touko. ^_^; By reducing the friend group in the fight from three to two, readers can more readily believe a scenario that plays out similar to the one I've listed above, and it's one which fits a traditional dramatic finale's formula.

Back to the story: Soujuurou offers to take Alice to her bedroom (in the West Wing that he's never been to), but she tells him she's fine staying here in the foyer, she wants to be here when Aoko gets back. Alice gazes up at the moonlight filtering through the foyer ceiling skylight and Soujuurou gazes at Alice, marveling at her inner strength. Soon, the phone rings, and before Soujuurou can answer it, Alice swoops over and picks up the receiver. "... Sorry. They got me," Aoko reports. She sounds glum, defeated, and half-dead.

And before we can even begin to process this ... the chapter ends. =o =')


Thoughts: WHOO! This post is big! ^^; Sorry it took so long. Took so long for you to read ='3 ... took even longer for me to write and submit. orz I first started taking notes for this chapter the night I read the chapter for the first time -- Thursday, March 16, 2023. It took me nearly two months to then get this post out. And I won't lie -- most of that effort, easily 80% of it or greater, came in the last four days. Until then, it was mostly time spent doing other things.

Paradoxically, it wasn't because I didn't enjoy the chapter. This chapter was AMAZING. If nothing else, if I wasn't able to convince you of that, I at least hope I was able to convince you that I felt that way about it. ^^; I told Yuki the night I finished the chapter:
  • I wanted to re-read the chapter, period
  • I wanted to re-read the chapter before pressing on to the next chapter
  • I wanted to re-read the chapter before submitting a post on UPN
All of that remained true this entire time. I just ... didn't do it. ^^; ;( Procrastinated, got busy with other stuff, lots of things.

As the revisit picked up in earnest several nights ago, on Sunday, April 30, I had to suppress the serious urge to re-read the chapter without pausing for my second time...and then re-re-read the chapter for a THIRD time WITH pausing! Such was my desire to re-enjoy the chapter without forced interruptions constantly taking me out of it. -_- (You're welcome, UPN! )

Part of what motivated the expedition of this post was Breath of the Wild: Tears of the Kingdom's May 12 release date coming up. I intend to pop whatever game is in my Switch's game slot out on May 12 and replace it with Tears of the Kingdom until I've completed that game's intended main story. (To use BotW 1 for comparison, I'm not saying I'd need to do all of the DLC trials or 120 the shrines, but I am saying I'd need to visit every realm in Hyrule and do all of the intended story beats. No rushing to Hyrule Castle with only a bottle and gym shorts! ) As ... as messed up as it may be of me to say , "I don't want Mahoyo's plot to be interrupted by something else for several months", I want to complete it 100% before moving on to the next project! �� So with only seven full days remaining -- I plan to try and get TotK the morning of the 12th and begin playing shortly after -- I've got to go go GO if I want to get Mahoyo done on time.

Thankfully, I think I can. The next chapter is named... "WITCH ON THE HOLY NIGHT I". ;o Sooo... I think we can safely guess that the game only has two to three chapters left. WotHN 1, WotHN 2, and then a possible wrap-up chapter after that.

But doing that would require me to break the one rule I've stuck to this entire time since December: no reading ahead. By which I mean, you can't begin the next chapter until you've completed your post for the previous chapter. I do this on purpose because I think it makes for a much more organic and sincere post -- future information can't inform my decisions, predictions, or opinions if I haven't reached it yet. The one or two times it's already happened in this thread, by sheer virtue of where I've sourced a lot of my images post-Chapter 05, Yuki's called me out on it ^^;; , "Hey! How come you have that picture in this chapter?" It's not because I've read ahead -- it's because when I go to get the images, sometimes things look similar and whoopsie-daisy. ^_^;

So yeah. I don't know. �� I may break that rule and try to finish reading the book before May 12 ... or I may keep it and usher in another two-month Mahoyo drought. Time will tell. I'm feeling very fickle about it, so I really can't say which decision I'll make until the day comes and I have Tears of the Kingdom in my hands.

Fake-out Deaths: Earlier in the post, I had mentioned that I was amused by what I perceive as Nasu's reticence to part with or to shelve various of his ideas for how to make this duel between Aozaki Touko and Alice Kuonji exciting. I appreciate that he wanted to keep us on the edge of our seats -- and boy, DID HE! -- but after a certain point it got a little ridiculous ^_^; how many times he faked us out that Alice was going to die.

This is something I complained about to AK2 when watching JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5, Golden Wind. There is a character in that story whom the author, Araki Hirohiko, has take a bullet to the head and die. A pretty final death. But then it's revealed that, psych, the bullet never actually entered his skull! Okay, whatever. Then we advance a little in the plot and ... same character, takes another bullet to the head -- three bullets, if I'm remembering correctly -- and you see the bullets go in ... and you see them exit out the other side ... and you watch the guy's blood ooze out of his skull all over the floor of the compartment he's in ... you even see his body get a sparkly gold aura around it and steam fizzle off of it, something that the author only does for characters who have truly died, to signify that their soul is leaving their body ... only for Araki to then reveal that, SURPRISE AGAIN, the character lives. HOW. Doesn't matter. Story progresses. Character's on a boat. Stuff happens, character should totally die. Character is shown "dying." Doesn't die. Happens a fourth time. By this fourth time I was just openly mocking the story. It became a running joke between me and AK2. ^^;

Eventually what happened is, a different character in the story dies and the presentation is tragic and serious. But I'm not taking it seriously. I can't, because the author has conditioned me not to. "Death is no longer permanent in this story" -- things that would normally translate to guaranteed death in the real world mean nothing here. So when the story concluded and this second character remained dead, I was genuinely shocked. But it was too late to mourn -- the credits were already rolling, the series was wrapping up. And I didn't feel like mourning anyway.

I'm grateful that that wasn't my experience here with the duel with Alice. But I'm bringing it up because I could easily imagine it being someone else's experience. And if one of those someone's one day comes and reads this post, I want them to understand that I recognize and understand their frustration. ^^;

Below: a list of all the back-and-forths on Alice's fate in this chapter!
  1. Alice arrives at the park. I don't know whether she'll live or die but--
  2. Alice calls Soujuurou to say goodbye, hangs up, turns around, and sees a pack of wild ravenous dogs some 100+ in number. Alice is going to die. D= =o
  3. The dogs all scamper off, and Alice brings forth her ploy vessel for Diddle Diddle. Maybe she lives--
  4. Oh wow. Oh wow wow wow. The vessel just exploded into a dozen fragments. Guess she's dead.
  5. Surprise! Alice's Mystic Eyes! Touko's trapped! She can't move a muscle!
  6. So much for that -- Touko just effortlessly dispelled the effect of Alice's Mystic Eyes. Dayum. And revealed Mystic Eyes of her own. DAYUM.
  7. But then Alice reveals that she switched places with Robin! (So it's Robin who dies, not her!)
    And then she reveals that she threw those five Ploy Kickshaw vessels down on the ground to their doom on purpose!
    And that it was all to get her ... the Thames Troll! Oh no! Whatever will Touko do now!?
  8. Beo. Boom. Thames Troll dead. Alice (almost) dead.
  9. Surprise -- Alice has Wolverine healing powers!
  10. Surprise -- Touko French kisses Alice and shoves an explosive down her throat!
    And then she tells Alice, "Boy, that pack of dogs over there sure seems awfully hungry...!"
    When all hope seems lost and it seems like Alice is going to be eaten alive by dogs...
  11. Touko calls Soujuurou and provides him with the necessary information to come and rescue Alice.
  12. ...But ah shit, Soujuurou would have to traverse five miles in one minute. 'S not possible! =\ Alice, nooo...
  13. SOUJUUROU! =O Soujuurou to the rescue!
  14. But even though she's still technically alive, she also still has that incendiary of Touko's inside of her! One wrong move and BOOM!
  15. But yay -- Alice lives~ :3 \o/

Last edited by Talon87; 05-05-2023 at 08:44 PM.
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Old 05-07-2023, 12:03 PM   #44
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Chapter 11: Witch on the Holy Night I

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Well this was different. 😂

Different in the sense that this was a shorter chapter... Different in the sense that this was a different kind of chapter... And different in the sense that I'm submitting the post the very same day I began and finished reading the chapter in question. ...Well, almost. ^_^; I finished most of the post last night, but the rest of it plus the proofreading I finished today. Still, though! =')

Chapter 11 "Witch on the Holy Night I" is a transition chapter between Chapter 10 "Howling" and what I assume will be numbered Chapter 11 Part 2 "Witch on the Holy Night II". It lacks the excitement of other chapters, and I don't have nearly as much that I feel obligated to quote or to respond to ... but there's still some neat stuff to be found, so let's dive into it. =) This post won't follow the chronological format of the previous one, but instead will be more topically organized like some others in this thread.


Alice's Relationships: Let's start off with the easiest one -- her feelings towards Shizuki-kun. There's a part here where Alice is talking with Aoko about resuming the fight with Touko and:
Alice: You're still planning on fighting, aren't you, Aoko?
Aoko: Can you blame me? It's not like I can give up.
Aoko: ...What about you?
Alice: Once something is mine, it stays mine.
Contextually, they're discussing Misaki City, the land, the ownership rights as magi... But maaaaan, when I read this, I couldn't help but to fangirl >D< and read this in the context of her relationship with Shizuki Soujuurou. In that context, it almost reads like a declaration of war to Aoko. Alice may as well be saying, "Mine. :p"

There's a follow-up line that reads, "Alice's intense attachment to her possessions was enough to make even Aoko shiver." Maaaaaaaan...! ='>

What about Alice's relationship then with Aoko? This is an interesting one. Like a lot of magi in Nasu's stories, Alice has this weird "I love you so much I could kill you; I love you so much I would kill for you; and you're enemy of mine enough that I would kill you, too" relationship with Aoko. For a girl who was gung ho about killing Aoko in Chapter 05, she sure has since done what appears to us Muggles as a complete 180 in Chapter 11 , unable to sleep she's so worried sick that Aoko won't survive the night and doing her part to make sure that Aoko is rescued and protected.

And how about Alice's relationship with the Church? This is probably the most interesting one for its freshness and its complexity, but we don't really get to see too much of it. Basically, in a nutshell: she's willing to beg the Church for hers, Aoko's, and Soujuurou's protection, but turns right around and confesses to Soujuurou that she would delete Misaki City's priest from the face of the Earth if she were allowed to. ...HWHAT!? What does any of this even mean...? I have so many questions!
  • Why does Alice single Eiri out for deletion? She doesn't mention wanting to blast the Church off the face of the map, nor include Ritsuka or Yuika in this... What is it about Eiri specifically that makes Alice despise him so?
  • How can she be so shameless, asking the Church to shelter her and her loved ones but then shit-talking them behind their back?
  • Why should the Church even agree to defend them?1
  • What is Alice's history with Ritsuka? Ritsuka even calls her "Acchan", the sort of adorable Japanese nickname you'd give to a small child. This is clearly presented to players to indicate that Ritsuka has known Alice since she was a little girl. But what is their relationship like, exactly?
1 This is explored later in the chapter, where they explain that a role reversal is soon to take place between Team Aoko and Team Touko, and how basically the Church will side with whoever has the proper rights to the land. So so long as Aoko is the rights holder to Misaki City, the Church will agree to shelter her; and then once it becomes Touko, the Church will kick the girls out and no longer provide them with sanctuary. But even so, I don't understand ... Just because the girls are the rights holders to the land, you have to give them shelter even though they harbor intense ill will towards you?


Aoko's Relationships: This chapter gives us a slightly better look at Aoko's family history, as well as her current-day relationships with several characters. We get confirmation that Aoko's grandfather may indeed still be alive despite earlier certainty on my end that he was dead. 🤷 We get it in the same confirmation that Aoko's parents and grandfather are currently locked away in a "castle"?. 🤷 Alice makes an off-hand reference about this, and like ... it definitely feels like some setup for Mahoyo 2 or Mahoyo 3, *sigh* RIP.

We learn that Aoko has known Eiri for quite some time and that he even offered to run away to Mexico with her when her grandfather requested that she become the Aozaki family heir. There seems to be an implication that, like Tobimaru, he is one of Aoko's many rejected suitors and current-day admirers?

Yuika works diligently to piece Aoko back together and to save her life. We later learn that entire chunks of her body were missing, sliced off or devoured by Beo. How Yuika managed to piece Aoko back together is anybody's guess, but the fact remains that she worked very hard throughout the night to prevent a girl from dying who, less than 48 hours from now, she may be forced to relinquish to Touko anyway. So that's something. Yuika has a severe exterior -- she's definitely "Mahoyo Sella" -- but she seems to genuinely care about people, believers or not.

Moving right along ...


Soujuurou's Purity: If there's one theory I stand by, it's that Soujuurou has a canon Origin and that his Origin is Purity or something very synonymous with that. This chapter has a lot of different moments where people say things like:
  • Yuika can see beings that possess the slightest amount of ill will. She cannot see Soujuurou.
  • Yuika can see beings that harbor greed. She cannot see Soujuurou.
  • Eiri compares Soujuurou with a blank canvas.
  • Eiri says Soujuurou lacks a color of his own.
  • Eiri says Soujuurou has no ego, no sense of self.
We'll re-explore these various moments in sections below, but the point I wanted to make here, concentrating the examples all in one place, is: the chapter really hammers home the idea that Soujuurou is akin to the living embodiment of purity, with all that that entails, both the good and the bad. Of course, I've explored in earlier posts how this idea is not perfect -- for example, Soujuurou does have desires and these desires he does act upon -- but generally speaking...


(picture source: Chapter 05 Part 2)

Soujuurou's Speed: Aoko and Alice exchange details regarding their respective defeats last night. As Alice is leaving Aoko's bedside, she is suddenly struck by a thought that brings her to a full stop in the doorframe:
Alice: How did he make it to me in time...?
HOW INDEED. Alice continues:
Alice: It happened before, too. Even though we took the first train back...
Here I'm not quite sure what she means. It can't be in reference to the day that Soujuurou house-sat while the girls went to the aquarium because, well... Soujuurou house-sat the entire day. What other time did Alice take a train home but get beaten home by Soujuurou? Regardless, it's clear what this represents -- pieces starting to fall into place as Alice starts to realize that Soujuurou is not a normal human.
Alice: It might be nothing. By the way, Yuika-san said she couldn't see Shizuki-kun.
When Alice first said this, my mouth dropped. But the narrator then goes on to elaborate:
Blind since birth, Yuika Suse saw the world through her other senses. She was especially sensitive to enemies, or those who bore ill will, and typically viewed almost everyone as a threat -- presumably because that was the easiest thing to pick up on.

So when she said she "couldn't see Soujuurou," that meant he was completely harmless.
Hmm... I think this is pretty good evidence that I am on the right track.


The Asagi Family: This is a very fast name drop, but when explaining the early events of Touko's attacks on the sigils of Misaki City, Aoko tells Soujuurou:
Aoko: If she'd broken them all at once, I'd suspect it was one of my relatives, such as someone from the Asagi family.
This is a cute little lore drop for us that, as far as I can tell, has yet to go anywhere. 🤷 Apparently there is a magus family in the Nasuverse by the name of Asagi who are relatives -- distant or close, who can say -- of the Aozakis.

Cute bonus information: 浅葱色 asagi'iro is the shade of blue iconically associated with the Shinsengumi. So (1) the blue shade that is asagi'iro is likely the reason behind the name selection by Nasu, the Aozakis and the Asagis, sister families who both have something to do with the color blue; and (2) who knows! maybe Aoko is a distant relative of someone in the Shinsengumi! 😊


"Yorokobe, shounen": In the final subchapter, Father Eiri comes to speak with Soujuurou. There are a few choice sentences here. One of the ones I liked was:
Soujuurou: I'm not sure what you're talking about. ...What's your question, exactly?
Eiri: Oh, don't worry. It's nothing unusual. Simply, why did you come down here? You seem like you'd be happier back home.
😬 dun dun DUN! 😮 😢 #excite

Another good one, shortly after this, was:
All [Soujuurou] knew was, even if he wanted to go back, he could not.
Hmm...

But probably the best line from the conversation was also the most poetic and philosophical:
Eiri: If you don't know why you left, you won't be able to love where you arrived.
Good stuff.

All in all, the subchapter focused on Eiri and Soujuurou was probably my favorite. It teased the most answers to Soujuurou's mystery of any of the others. It gave necessary character development to one of the most underutilized boxart characters in the game thus far. ^^; And it was tense for its palpable similarities to conversations held between Kotomine Kirei and Emiya Shirou in Fate/stay night. Kirei is a famously enigmatic character, and Eiri feels like a slightly less so but still enigmatic cousin. Eiri's friendliness towards and concern for Soujuurou feels insincere, but less so than Kirei's towards others.


Eiri argues that Soujuurou is envious of Aoko. And...that Aoko resents Soujuurou. The conversation takes various twists and turns before we finally land on Eiri's hypothesis:
Eiri: Your envy may come from your lack of a foundation. Or, more accurately, your lack of a color of your own.

Soujuurou squinted, trying to understand the priest's complicated yet concise answer.

Eiri: This is what I'm talking about. You are extraordinarily flexible. You learned to live alone in a city after coming down from the mountains. And then, once you'd gotten used to that, you started living with Aoko and Alice in a very different world. I don't know if you consciously try to adapt, but regardless, your ability to do so is astonishing. Also, I don't know why, but you do not appear to exhibit signs of a regular ego. You can respond to anything, but aren't influenced by it. To be frank, you're a blank canvas that stays blank. While blending in to your surroundings is a wonderful thing, no sense of self means having no place to call home. Your talent is a double-edged sword.

Eiri: The fact Yuika didn't see you was unexpected. She can perceive even incorporeal elemental spirits, and yet not you. That says a lot about your lack of greed.

As if amused by something, Father Eiri grinned. However, Soujuurou understood neither the meaning of his smile nor his words.

Eiri: This is mere speculation, but I believe Aoko feels resentment when she looks at you. To a brazen soul like her, your lack of self is something she simply cannot accept. And yet, you see something in Aoko you could never attain.
Eiri goes on to explain to Soujuurou that when Aoko was asked to become the heir to the Aozaki family, she was effectively asked to commit suicide and become somebody else. Eiri and the narrator together explain that Aoko is the sort of person who puts her all into everything -- and that's always been true of her, and was true of her when she was being raised as a non-magus, too. Whether it was a career in rock-and-roll or this or that, I don't know, but the game invites us to imagine that Aoko had bright muggle dreams for her bright muggle future ahead of her ... and that she was asked to snuff all of these out and become somebody else. For somebody who has as strong a sense of self as Aoko, Father Eiri explains, this was exceedingly difficult. And, he explains, this is why he suspects that Aoko resents Soujuurou, who effectively has no sense of self.

The conversation culminates in one of the best blocks of text in the chapter:
As for why Soujuurou envied her... well, that was obvious. To Soujuurou, she lived her life with her head held high.

He was a boy who accepted everything, but had nothing. She was a girl who threw it all away, but never lost a thing.
Dang. Poor Soujuurou... ;(


(picture source: Chapter 10)

ROUND TWO, FIGHT!: Overall, this chapter seems like it's just Nasu's way of justifying an Aoko vs. Touko re-match so soon. Considering it from the point of view of a storyteller, I don't really understand why Nasu felt the need to have both Alice and Aoko fight Touko already and to have had Aoko lose to Touko if this was how it was all going to ultimately play out. Why not simply have had Alice fought Touko, lost... and then segued into Aoko's one-on-one showdown with her sister? Why have Aoko lose, only to have her miraculously heal and then win 24 hours later?

Nasu justifies Touko's decision to spare Aoko's life as cruel torture -- that she knows it's not in Aoko's nature to give up, so she deliberately mutilated her and brought her to the brink of death without fully killing her, just so she can toy with her again later... But I dunno. ^^; Feels sorta silly to me. Feels like the typical cartoon villain action where:
  • the villain explains their master plan to the hero, thereby allowing the hero to thwart it (doesn't apply here)
  • the villain has the hero right where they want them but then doesn't kill them, thereby allowing the hero to later return and thwart the villain (EXACTLY applies here )
Like, you wanted revenge, you wanted to take back what was rightfully yours (as you see it) ...Why did you let Aoko leave with the family crest still inside of her? ^_^; That was my first question. Why did you not do what we saw Sora-Ui do to Kayneth with the Command Spells in Fate/Zero? Then, putting aside that you didn't take the family crest back, why did you let Aoko live and then walk away from her and let her be rescued by Alice's birds and by people from the Church?
Touko: 🤪
...is my only remotely satisfactory justification currently. ^_^;;;


Touko the "Villain": Given what a fan favorite Touko is in Kara no Kyoukai but how largely different she is from the Touko on display here, it's been interesting seeing a Touko much closer in behavior to what we witnessed in her duel with Cornelius Alba. Precisely because Touko is such a fan favorite and so beloved, one detail I find interesting in the latest chapter of Mahoyo is how everybody is asking the question, "How on earth did Touko manage to secure a golden werewolf as a familiar!?" They mention how werewolves are Mystics, how silver werewolves are Phantasmals, how the notion of a golden werewolf would transcend even that (although, perhaps for lack of terminology, they later go on to refer to Beo again as a Phantasmal ^_^; 🤷) ...

Everyone seems to be so focused on the power levels at play. "How could a mage only 20 years old defeat a Golden Phantasmal some 3,000 years old?" Well, there's two ways this can go, and I enjoy the prospect of each of them:
  • Touko is a boss. 😊 \o/
  • Touko didn't defeat Beo -- at least, not in combat, anyway. ;o She befriended him / earned his trust / earned his respect / did something that made Beo want to become her familiar.
It's B I'm hoping moreso for, and I honestly think it's B they may be hinting towards. We'll see!

Touko did tell Alice in the previous chapter that she "bought" Beo and paid a hefty price for him -- her locks of hair -- but again... the girls have already clued us readers in that this is not an equivalent exchange: as mighty as Touko is, Touko's hair is not enough to pay for the contract with a 3,000-year old Mystic. So I'm curious to learn the full story. => 🤞


The Old Abandoned School Building: When Aoko tells Soujuurou about how Beo tore her apart, Soujuurou expresses irritation that the child didn't hold back. Nodding in agreement, Aoko pauses -- how did Soujuurou know the wolf was a boy? Soujuurou then reveals that he spied a blond-haired boy the one day that he, Kinomi, and the other students were clearing brush near the old abandoned school building. While he isn't certain it's Aoko's werewolf, in Soujuurou's mind it was a logical conclusion that "golden wolf = mysterious shounen with golden hair I spied once near an abandoned building".

...In defense of Soujuurou's logic, he then goes on to add that he once delivered fifty kilos of raw beef there. yare yare =')

This is it. The one thing Aoko needed if she was going to pull off a miracle. She can't defeat Touko on an even playing field. But maybe, just maybe, she can use knowledge of the enemy's hideout to her advantage…

At least, this is where the story seems to be headed. I've honestly no idea how knowledge of Touko's base's whereabouts is going to help Aoko any. 🤷 Like, if Touko is your better right now thanks to Beo, then surely the same reason why Touko can't just march into the Kuonji estate with Beo in tow and destroy everyone and everything is why you shouldn't be able to trespass her atelier at the school and get one over on her. No?

And speaking of a march on Chez Kuonji ... yeah! Why doesn't Touko march straight in with Beo? It's already been established that Beo cleaves through the Thames Troll and Alice alike as though they were butter. So why doesn't she just ride her wolf companion up the hill, through the brush, and march straight on Kuonji Castle? There has to be a perfectly reasonable in-universe explanation for this, but I'm struggling to find one -- not when they've gone out of their way to establish that Beo is a walking, talking scimitar when it comes to cleaving through magic.


Closing Thoughts & Last-Minute Predictions: Apologies to those who enjoy the comprehensive plot recap-style posts that this one is much less so. ^^; There's a lot I've omitted for the sake of time, including some points that I might find personally interesting but which I am not willing to exhaustively explore at this time. 😓

Given how little space is left on the Archive bookshelf, given that we're reaching what feels like the game's ultimate showdown between Aozaki Aoko and Aozaki Touko, and given that the next chapter is called "Witch on the Holy Night II", I feel pretty confident in predicting that the next chapter is either the last, the second-to-last, or the third-to-last one. If it is one of these three, then which one is it? (For the cookie!) I...... am not super confident there. ^_^; My inclination is that it's probably the second-to-last one. *places his Roulette chips there* I figure we've got one big chapter for the showdown, and then one big epilogue/farewell chapter.

Obviously we know that neither Aoko nor Touko are going to die and stay dead here. And obviously, the easy prediction -- that I'm obviously going with -- is that Aoko's about to win this fight. Everything's been building to this moment. She's outclassed by Touko as a mage. She's super outclassed firepower-wise by Beo. So we're going to see her unleash True Magic -- the Fifth Magic -- and thereby defeat both Beo and Touko. Touko will run away with her tail between legs -- "I'LL GET YOU, GADGET! " -- and Aoko will celebrate her victory -- and a return of peace and calm to Misaki City for the foreseeable future.

I do wonder if someone from the Association is going to show up, as something of a cliffhanger arrival right smack dab before the game ends -- a teaser for Mahoyo 2 that was meant to come out years ago. ^_^; ;(

I predict that the girls will decide not to erase Soujuurou's memories. He's earned his keep. Aoko may legitimately try to argue for him being her familiar. ^^;; Even if she doesn't or if that doesn't fly, I can see the girls saying that they are willing to take the fight to the Association (and any goons that they may throw the girls' way) if it means protecting Soujuurou's memories and shielding him from harm.

I predict that we will finally find out who or what exactly Shizuki Soujuurou is. I certainly hope that that's not a secret that Nasu was planning on taking with him to the grave to Mahoyo 2 or 3. 😢

I predict that they will reveal that Soujuurou either:
  1. is the cat, and this is BokuMachi all over again where the plot twist was telegraphed from miles away but I was far too skeptical for exactly that reason
  2. is a product of Alaya's, parthenogenesized onto the Earth. He has no (human or animal) parents, though he may well have been raised in the mountains by compassionate humans
I predict that Alice will survive. At least Mahoyo 1. Jury's definitely out on whether she survives all the way through the end of 3. We shall see.

Alright, then ... Let's do it!
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Old 05-12-2023, 07:13 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
The same way that Haga Keita achieved legend status among FSN fans with "EMIYA", Fukasawa achieved legend status among FGO fans with a song not even originally written for FGO -- "at the garden", a simple but powerful piece that oozes the fairy tale of King Arthur, of Camelot, and was used not once but twice in Fate/Grand Order to make readers cry.
Did you recommend this track to Kuno?

I know you did recommend some music, I recognized some of your picks, and I'm pretty sure I've heard this track before even though I've never touched F/GO. In fact, I think it's the track that plays at the climax of UPN The Game II: The ReGamening.

Which is pretty funny-meta considering your role in that game. xD
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Old 08-26-2023, 10:48 AM   #46
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Did you recommend this track to Kuno?

I know you did recommend some music, I recognized some of your picks, and I'm pretty sure I've heard this track before even though I've never touched F/GO. In fact, I think it's the track that plays at the climax of UPN The Game II: The ReGamening.

Which is pretty funny-meta considering your role in that game. xD
I did not. I did not discover the track until 2020. It's probable that he discovered it independently or that it was recommended to him by Emi, Kamen, Liltwick, or one of the other members of the community familiar with Fate/Grand Order or with Type-Moon's discography.

It's a very good track though. Used very, very well in Fate/Grand Order. =')
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Old 08-26-2023, 05:47 PM   #47
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Old 08-27-2023, 10:11 AM   #48
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Chapter 12: Witch on the Holy Night II
—Part 1: Blue Magic—

Spoiler: show
The penultimate chapter of Mahoutsukai no Yoru was both exactly what I predicted and not at all what I was expecting.
X I thought it was going to be "Chapter 11 Part 2", but Nasu pulled the rug out from under me and labeled it "Chapter 12" after all ^_^;

X I thought it was going to be a normal-length chapter, maybe slightly longer than normal. .........No. No, no, no, no, no. This chapter is literally the length of Chapter 10 ... twice. It's HUGE.

O I thought it was going to be the big finale between Aoko and Touko, and of course it was.

O I thought it was going to be followed by an epilogue chapter, and it's looking like that was correct as well. We'll see.
I say it's the "penultimate chapter" of Mahoyo, but having not yet started the next chapter, "A tale of the star", I have no idea whether this is the end coming up or whether there's considerably more to go. I think it's a fairly safe bet that this is it, The Wonderful World of Ploys notwithstanding.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

I'm going to divide this chapter into two posts. The chapter is divided into two halves by Nasu himself -- the first part is titled "Blue Magic" and the other part is titled "And Then, Blue Magic". Where I would personally consider the halfway point / the bookmark point to be... is a fair little bit of the way into "And Then, Blue Magic". I'm going to be selfish and cheat that portion into this post, because I do think it flows better this way. But! This means that there's a real risk of spoilers for anyone who is following along with my chapter titles. And so! If you are a reader who is playing along from home yourself and has been enjoying reading these posts which each chapter you complete...

Do not read this post unless you've finished the scene that the picture at the top of this post comes from!

Pretty simple. You haven't seen this picture yet in-game? Or you have seen it but you haven't finished the scene yet? Step away now.


Before we dive in, a quick little update from the real world. I stated previously that I had hoped to complete this chapter (if not Mahoyo altogether) prior to Breath of the Wild: Tears of the Kingdom's release on May 12. I am happy to report that I did indeed complete Chapter 12 prior to the Zelda game coming out! Rummaging through previous chat history, it looks like I had completed it by 10:58pm on May 8. ...Of course I didn't manage to get the post out before TotK dropped ^_^; , and for that I am well and truly sorry.

But I had always planned to re-read the chapter before posting anyway. For several reasons:
  • the chapter was too captivating for me to want to constantly put it down to take notes. I wanted to just read the chapter cinematically, enjoy the experience as it was meant to be experienced, and then come back later and re-read it while taking notes.
  • the chapter was too long, and this made it difficult when reading in the moment to identify which parts I should discuss more fully than others.
So I was already well prepared to have to re-read the chapter before writing this post. And in fact I wanted to. But I ... didn't expect it to be this long of a delay. A lot of stuff happened between then and now...

Alright, then! Let's dive in, shall we?


Beo & the Abandoned School Building: The chapter opens with some backstory. First we get some more information on Lugh Beowulf. A glimpse of Touko and Beo's first meeting, a reminder that Beo was an outsider even among those werewolves who revered him... We also get a look at Touko and Beo inside of the abandoned school building, now that Soujuurou has already established for us and the girls in the previous chapter that the abandoned school building is in fact the likeliest location of Touko's atelier. I don't really have much to say about this part, so moving right along...


Aoko & Alice vs. Touko: Last post, I'd hypothesized how the girls were going to defeat Touko. How it was going to involve Aoko deploying the Fifth Magic, etc. Well...things certainly got off to a rocky start. ^^; The girls, desperate to try something, essentially march to their doom with a fairly shallow plan. Alice will use another Robin as a decoy-substitute -- but this time in place of Aoko, not Alice. When the decoy goes to challenge Touko, it will draw her fire. Meanwhile, the real Aoko will strike!

It isn't much of a plan. ^_^; Despite Aoko's thoughts frequently turning to Beo and his ability to tear mages asunder, the girls' plan does nothing to actually address his presence. Their best hope, their gamble, is that they can strike Touko down before she can deploy her werewolf familiar. Which... doesn't even make good sense. ^_^; Say Touko did die before Beo could be deployed. ...Wouldn't that simply end their contract? Wouldn't Beo simply go back to being a Divine Beast unleashed? The only reason he doesn't tear Aoko apart now is, Aozaki Touko demands his obedience and orders him not to. ^^; The girls seem to have fundamentally misunderstood Beo in all of this. Beo doesn't kill the girls because Touko orders him to -- Beo refrains from killing the girls because Touko orders him to. ^_^; The moment she says he can go and kill them, she isn't ordering him to do anything -- she's releasing him.

I will say, though, that "Rinbu/Witch Tale" plays again here and boy is it great as ever. It doesn't just elevate the scene -- it lays the foundation for the scene. For all my criticism of the girls' plan, boy do I take this fight-to-the-death seriously when "Rinbu/Witch Tale"'s playing in the background! This is followed shortly afterward by "Kettou/One-on-One", just as great if not even greater!


Are you alright, Touko-san?

And Aoko's mana deployment is pretty spectacular. It's not like this is the first time we've seen Aoko fire her mana cannon. But the sound effects and illustration work to perfection, getting you to hold you breath and marvel at the spectacle.


Touko the Witch: In addition to Beo, Touko has another ace up her sleeve. Magic Crests. A dozen or more, all belonging to other magi. Normally a Magic Crest can't be taken from another magus and used directly. The Magic Crest can only be used by inheritors of that family's magic. But Touko has figured out an ingenious work-around. Quoting the Type-Moon Fan Wiki:
[Touko] is capable of utilizing the Magic Crests of other mages as compensation for her lack of her family's own crest. She is capable of doing so by kidnapping mages and keeping them within a relatively well-kept facility. Because it is pointless to try to copy a Magic Crest onto one's own magic circuits, she instead has them float behind her taking on the appearance of golden wings. Because the crests are not physically connected to her body, she does not feel the pain usually associated with crest usage, but an extra step must be taken if she is to cast a spell from her crests. According to Aoko, the original users of the crests must be kept alive for them to work because the only ones who could use Magic Crests are the inheritors themselves.
So basically, what Touko does is:
  1. Be challenged to a duel by a magus.
  2. Accept the challenge.
  3. Defeat the challenger.
  4. Imprison the challenger inside of a hammerspace resort spa. (May not actually be a hammerspace, but that's how I interpreted it to be. Pictured the people inside all tiny-like, like in JoJo Part V with the turtle.)
  5. ???
  6. Make use of the crests.
It's unclear how exactly it works, and whether out of refusal to commit to a less-than-satisfactory answer or whether because in this particular instance he's following the writing tip to "never explain how the magic works" in your universe, *shrug*, Nasu doesn't really explain how any of this works. ^_^; All we need to know is, Touko is keeping a bunch of magi prisoner (inside of an Aladdin's genie lamp, is how I imagine it ='3) and as a result she is able to circumvent the normal rules and make use of Magic Crests not her own. Full use or partial use, I do not know, but still. As Aang might say, "Touko's a genius -- a mad genius!"

And chief among Touko's prisoners, we discover, is Aoko's grandfather! =o It's not really clear to me how or why he would lose to Touko where Aoko will win, but again, Nasu refuses to explain the details here. All that matters right now is, Grandfather is alive but is being kept captive inside of Touko's makeshift facility.


Okay, let's fast forward 'cause I wanna get to the good stuff and you wanna hear me discuss it. Touko releases Beo. Aoko orders Alice to run. Aoko plans to take Touko down before Beo can reach them. Beo never shows. Aoko learns that Beo's been in the woods this entire time. Beo shows up with an eviscerated Alice. Beo flings her into the air. Aoko barely manages to save Alice. Then...


...Aoko attempts to kill Beo with a direct kick to the head. She intends to snap his neck. Her kick is made with full force. No... That's not quite right. Beo points out that Aoko showed restraint when kicking:
Beo: You held back a bit too, right? You wanted to protect your leg, I guess. Humans need to forget that kinda thing when fighting me.
! This'll come back in a few minutes! >w<

Beo begins to destroy Aoko's body, the miraculous repairs she underwent at the church being undone in a matter of seconds. As Aoko and Alice lay crumpled on the ground, who should arrive...but Soujuurou. ='>


The Boy from the Mountains: This scene has to be seen for oneself. Go on. I'll wait. If you're reading along from home and haven't seen this scene before, try searching YouTube for "Soujuurou vs Beo" or similar.

Soujuurou arrives. Ignoring Beo, he tends to Aoko. Beo is annoyed by this and demands Soujuurou's response with increasing agitation.
Still not responding, Soujuurou raised a hand to his nose. Cool, calm, and collected. Paying no mind to the boy, yet keeping an eye on him.

Soujuurou: ...Something reeks.
Beo: ...?

Everyone present was confused. No one seemed to be able to smell anything but him.

Beo: Oh? What do you smell, mister?

Beo's voice retained his usual arrogance, but was tinged with impatience. The boy was unable to hide his irritation at being ignored. Finally, Soujuurou turned to face the boy just a short distance from him.

Soujuurou: It's like rotten meat. This is why I hate dogs.
DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYUM!

AND ALSO -- IS SOUJUUROU THE CAT!?


BEO'S PISSED. Transforming back into his hulking anthropolupine form, Beo charges at Soujuurou for the kill.

Soujuurou takes a deep breath. And, analyzing the scene before him and positioning himself just right...


...he...


...PUNCHES BEO RIGHT IN THE CHEST!

Equal parts amazing and ridiculous, the boy from the mountains times his punch just right to mess with Beo's heart. And then he...


He...!


HE PIVOTS AROUND...! HE DELIVERS A SECOND BLOW TO BEO'S HEART! AND...AND...!


THE BEAST GOES DOWN!

My words don't do this scene justice. It is such a truly incredible scene. It well combines excitement and exhilaration with incredulity and disorientation. Your brain is processing rapid-fire, trying to decode what it is witnessing... Your senses tell you what you are witnessing, but it is just too incredible to be believed on face value alone!

The snapping bones of Soujuurou's mangled arm...!

The determination and focus on his face...!

The surgical precision of his strikes...!

The "single strike", mighty-blow similarity to previous Type-Moon fan favorite martial artists like Kuzuki Souichirou, Kotomine Kirei, and Li Shuwen...!

It's a show-stealer for sure. As silly as it is -- "local mountain boy punches werewolf in the chest, stopping heart" -- it's just such an unforgettable moment.

It has so many great visuals, too! You can tell that Koyama Hirokazu, lead illustrator for Mahoutsukai no Yoru, was super pumped to illustrate this scene. So many good shots of Soujuurou here.

The scoring is also quite fun! We get to hear a never-before-heard piece in "Kinrou/ELEMENTS". While the song may be named after Beo (kinrou 金狼 means "golden wolf"), the aesthetic of the song screams the martial arts honed in the Japanese mountains -- this is Soujuurou's song through and through.


Shizuki Soujuurou: This chapter relishes in the exploration of Soujuurou's paradoxical humanity and inhumanity. So much is said and shown here to support the interpretation that Soujuurou is "just an ordinary human being" but that he is a peak human being, physically and mentally; and then so much is also said and shown here to support the interpretation that Soujuurou isn't human, that at the very least even if he is genetically and physically human he is mentally something altogether different. Soujuurou already had pretty dead eyes compared with many Type-Moon protagonists, but this chapter in particular shows us his dead, soulless eyes on several occasions. Beo remarks at one point that Soujuurou is an "insect" -- not in the sense that he is easily squished and beaten, but in the sense that his psychology, his soul, is no different from a bug's. Beo looks in Soujuurou's eyes and sees an insect -- and that terrifies him.

Who is Shizuki Soujuurou? What is Shizuki Soujuurou? These questions sadly remain unanswered for the time being. The game gleefully reminds us that Soujuurou is a mountain boy for whom fending off bears would not have been uncommon and that a werewolf like Beo is not so different from a giant grizzly. Still, though. Are we really going to sit here and say that your run-of-the-mill mountaineer is going to do exactly what Soujuurou did, behave exactly like Soujuurou?

One thing is made abundantly clear by this chapter, however: Shizuki Soujuurou is not normal. Even if he proves to be an ordinary human being in the end, "ordinary" and "normal" are two similar but in this case completely different things. Soujuurou may be human ... but if he is, he is nothing at all like Kinomi or Tobimaru. Hell, he's nothing at all like Aoko or Alice! Shizuki Soujuurou is truly special.

Touko has several interesting observations during this section. First off:
Touko felt a chill come over her as she went over in her head what had transpired.
It should have been a nightmarish scene, but she was captivated by that supreme display of physical rationality. From the outside looking in, she had witnessed not an accident, but a rational consequence. In that instant, the boy had put his entire being into piercing Beo's chest.

As soon as he laid eyes on Aoko and Alice, he had committed himself fully to the task. He sized Beo up, synchronized his breathing, found his weak point, and calculated the exact position, timing, and distance he would need to hold his ground.

He knew what he had to do to win, and did it with everything he had.

It had nothing to do with instinct.

A wild creature would not have tried to beat something it could not.

Only a human would risk his life when faced with the impossible.

That contradiction fed his attack. He twisted his body from his heel to his neck to focus his energy. If Beo had simply tried to run Soujuurou down, the werewolf would probably have won. But the beast wanted to rip him to shreds. Or rather, he was baited into doing so.

After Beo charged, when he planted his feet... ...he raised his claw, then swung it downward, putting himself off-balance. His pulse was erratic, his movement wild; in that moment, he was vulnerable. That was when Soujuurou made his move. The beast had overwhelming power, but it was sloppy. whereas the human concentrated all of his meager power into a single point. That was how the human shifted the balance in his favor.
This is one of the many lil' pieces of evidence in support of the "Soujuurou is human" hypothesis, but it's also a look at one of Nasu's favorite ideas -- how the weaker can devour the stronger, how the lesser can overcome the greater, how the should-have-been-loser can obtain victory.

Also:
The boy was totally committed, utterly selfless. He bet his life on that single moment without expecting a single thing in return.
Finally:
Given what she just witnessed, his cluelessness had to be part of an act -- the act of a hunter.
This is something I think we touched on previously in this thread -- the idea that Soujuurou's cluelessness has to be or could be an act. I'm having a hard time finding it right now, but if we haven't discussed it here, it may be something I discussed with Yuki separately. *shrug* Not that any of us thinks Soujuurou is secretly a bad person and is only pretending to be a goody-two-shoes, no, but like... His sheer naivety defies belief. It would be possible for somebody to be this naive ... but not Shizuki Soujuurou. Not the person we're told led the life that Soujuurou did, leads the life that he now does, manages to function in 1980s Japanese society "just fine" to the extent that he does... Something's not right.

Well. We'll have plenty of time to figure all of this out later.












Soujuurou's Death: ...

We'd always known that Soujuurou might die. But to actually see him die, and to see him die like this...!

An argument could be made that it was an act of mercy from Touko. The narration makes clear that Soujuurou was a "dead man standing", that both of his arms were mangled and that one of his two legs was nothing more than a hunk of meat. But it's hardly an act of mercy to slice a man in two at the waist. At the end of the day, Touko's primary motivation in killing Soujuurou is clearly communicated -- Soujuurou is a threat to her victory over Aoko in this winner-takes-all fight. She saw her opening to take him out and she took it.

I liked this part that Soujuurou shares shortly before his death:
Soujuurou: [...] I was finally able to keep my promise. You held up your end of the deal, but I hadn't delivered yet. That always bothered me. I'm so glad I got the chance to set things straight.
This really goes to show the sort of person that Shizuki Soujuurou is.


That's it for this post. Honestly, I had expected I'd have a lot more to say. Perhaps it's simply due to the fact that the first half of the chapter is mostly action. Perhaps it is the negative consequence of writing about the chapter three months after the initial mega-hype. I dunno. *shrug* But, this post is already plenty long, and splitting the chapter into two separate posts is definitely going to prove to be the right decision as we press on into the second half. お楽しみに!
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