Fizzy Bubbles Shop Discussions: Intermission

[Lil'twick]

Hey everyone! So, as you know, one of the main focuses for this year is to rework the shop system and the individual shops within. A lot of people are working as Shop Owners, which is fantastic! Though, also, a lot of shops are in dire need of updating and modernization. We want to aim toward making shops more intuitive and user-friendly, while simultaneously moving away from trying to promote "shop simulator". LP and its respective shops were an initial push into the system, where we want to encourage a healthy balance of Role Playing in order to purchase rewards. We are planning on hitting every single shop during this review, and the current shop being discussed will be in the title. Please do not try and discuss another shop while a specific shop is being discussed!

As for which shops get chosen, well, we'll see which SOs wish to discuss their shops first before we go and pick shops. As for why the Move Tutor is seen first, well, MM had approached us last year on it already. So, using the MT as an example, we would like to have the SO be active in the discussion as well as give their proposal on changing up their shop.

Here are a few things to try and keep in mind about the shop:
1) What purpose does this shop serve? What does the shop need to fulfill that purpose? Do you feel this shop is necessary?
2) Is the shop economical? Is it something that you feel that you could realistcally use the services provided for the price point?
3) If you do not use this shop, why not? What changes could be made to make you use this shop, if you don't already use it?

Of course, other questions may come up when it comes to particular shops. SOs, we would like you to keep in mind that this is meant for valid criticism and suggestions, and to not take this as a personal affront. Additionally, if we see a discussion starting to stall, we will push to get that shop's changes wrapped up and pushed out so the next shop can go ahead. During the transitionary phases, please wait for the mods and/or SOs to begin the next discussion topic. So, without further ado, let's get this discussion started.

[Missingno. Master]

All righty! Been looking forward to this discussion, I have some things to say!

The Move Tutor is a far cry from its glory days. For the vast majority of the past several months, I've been the sole customer, and that's including the entire duration of the FB 21st birthday event. Like... something ain't right about that. And I can see why, honestly- as time goes on, more and more MT moves overlap with TM moves, to the point where there's many cases in FB where it'd be cheaper to buy a TM to teach a move unnaturally than to shell out ₽800 at my shop, and even if the move would be taught naturally, buying the TM is just faster for no extra money- of course that's gonna be the more enticing option!

Now, I know there's still a good amount of moves that can only be taught via the Move Tutor, but speaking in my capacity as not only the shop owner but also by and large my sole customer for the past several months, that just hasn't been cutting the mustard as of late, and I'm not convinced the issue will get any better, especially since Scarlet and Violet went and made TMs out of damn near half the Advanced Moves!

With all that in mind, I have a proposal to put to the community.

• Cut the increased price for unnatural moves altogether. I mean, I get why we don't do this for TMs, since you can't just retroactively charge an extra ₽300 if someone buys a TM and then down the line uses it to teach, like, Dragon Pulse to a Spewpa or something. Unless you force people to use TMs immediately on purchase, but like, we wouldn't do that. The system with TMs works well in FB, I think we can all agree, so at this point, is there really any purpose to hiking up the prices for the same thing at the Move Tutor, particularly with so many overlapping moves?
• Cut the prices across the board. I'm thinking a flat ₽250 per move, natural or unnatural, Shadow, Advanced, level-up, Event, what have you. That's half the price of a TM. See, with a TM, you buy it, you can use it immediately, whereas my services take a week. I think it makes sense to pay extra for the instant gratification, while having the option to save some money by being a bit more patient.
• I'm also thinking we axe the idea of Advanced Moves. The ones we have can still stay teachable, of course, just... they'd fall under the heading of MT moves like any other. The concept has lost its luster in a big way, with the final nail in that coffin, in my opinion, being Scarlet and Violet making a bunch of them into TMs, as I've mentioned earlier. This wouldn't be exclusively a Move Tutor thing, I would hope- they would also count as regular MT moves for the purposes of the Calendar, since, thus far, Advanced Moves have been strictly off the table for teaching to a Pokémon on its birthday.
• Alter the effect of Heart Scales in the Move Tutor to some degree. This I'm not entirely sure on what we can do, but I feel there's something to be done here. Me, personally, I tend to use my Heart Scales in the Daycare. I actually do have an idea on that, but it's a bit on the iffy side, since it veers dangerously in the direction of XMs, which are very much intended to be an exceedingly rare treat, but... I propose that using a Heart Scale at the Move Tutor entitles you to one unnatural Egg move, something that thus far has not been doable. What I mean by that is, you'd be able to drop off a Pokémon to learn a move that's considered an Egg move for something else, anything else. Like dropping off a Koffing to learn Parting Shot, on the grounds that that's an Egg move for stuff like Impidimp and Squawkabilly. I should reiterate, I'm suggesting this should only be doable via Heart Scale, not as a normal service, as an incentive to actually seriously consider using Heart Scales at the Move Tutor.

OK, that's basically everything I had so far. I welcome everyone's input on this. I'm more than ready to breathe life back into my precious shop!

[blu3shift]

Random disorganized list of thoughts. Some of them are probably bad ideas but I'm just letting myself brainstorm

• I think that we should move TMs out of the Department Store and into the MT thread instead. It seems a lot more straightforward to have a more centralized store for move learning.
• Limits should be more RP-based somehow to avoid people powerleveling their Pokémon too much right out of the gate without touching the zones at all. I'm not sure how you'd do this however.
• Agreed on AMs going. It's an arbitrary category and we already have so many move categories already. In fact, if you're feeling so inclined I'd flatten everything into "level-up move," "natural," and "unnatural." It's a big ask though so it's probably for the best to just keep things simple for now.
• Possibly fold MT moves into TMs too, based on what MM said above. I think the games themselves are past the point of having move tutors but the jury's still out on that one.
• Simplify the OP. It's a good thing that the rules are very clear, but it's a very daunting post to scroll through. Also not sure how you could pull this off though so it might be better to just disregard this point.
• Maybe consider using LP for the move tutor? Everything move-related in Gen 9 (so far) is handled using League Points.

[Missingno. Master]

Originally Posted by blu3shift

Random disorganized list of thoughts. Some of them are probably bad ideas but I'm just letting myself brainstorm

• I think that we should move TMs out of the Department Store and into the MT thread instead. It seems a lot more straightforward to have a more centralized store for move learning.
• Limits should be more RP-based somehow to avoid people powerleveling their Pokémon too much right out of the gate without touching the zones at all. I'm not sure how you'd do this however.
• Agreed on AMs going. It's an arbitrary category and we already have so many move categories already. In fact, if you're feeling so inclined I'd flatten everything into "level-up move," "natural," and "unnatural." It's a big ask though so it's probably for the best to just keep things simple for now.
• Possibly fold MT moves into TMs too, based on what MM said above. I think the games themselves are past the point of having move tutors but the jury's still out on that one.
• Simplify the OP. It's a good thing that the rules are very clear, but it's a very daunting post to scroll through. Also not sure how you could pull this off though so it might be better to just disregard this point.
• Maybe consider using LP for the move tutor? Everything move-related in Gen 9 (so far) is handled using League Points.

• It's been suggested before that the Move Tutor sell TMs outright. I'm not totally opposed to the idea, and I can see the sense in having everything move related under one roof, so to speak, but I'm not sure about it all the same. I feel like I'd be taking a lot of business away from the Department Store, and while I am suggesting ways to make my shop more enticing in a sense, I feel this could be taking it to something of an extreme in that regard.
• I dunno about RP-based limits, honestly. We tried something to that effect back when we gated unnatural MT moves behind a certain Bond threshold, and the promise of in-zone event move tutors, if memory serves, never actually came to pass. I see what you're saying, but like, there's something to be said for using the shops for "behind the scenes" preparation for zone adventures.
• Yeah, I'm thinking for now just merging AMs into the MT category is the way to roll with this. More than that might be a bit much, I don't see the other categories as particularly arbitrary as they stand right now.
• I don't think we're yet at the point where we ought to just convert all MT moves into TMs. Like you say, the jury's still out on that one. There's a good chunk of MT moves that remain MT moves only to this day, even if the overlap grows larger by the generation. By and large, FB doesn't really deal in TMs that don't exist in the main series. There are exceptions, but they are most definitively exceptions, y'know? If we were to do this, I feel like it ought to work both ways- make all MT moves available as TMs, but also make all TM moves teachable as MT moves. That way, my idea with the pricing would apply to them all- pay more to teach them immediately, or wait a week and save some cash.
• I'm glad the rules are clear, I made a definite effort to do that. Not sure how much I could simplify the OP (beyond the previous discussion regarding AMs obviously meaning that section of the OP would be gone), but I'm open to ideas as to what could make it less daunting to scroll through.
• I'm all for incorporating LP. At the moment I would personally think it should just be as an alternative to paying with Pokédollars, with said currency still being a viable option, if only because LP is such a new system in FB. Leaving the option open, of course, to change things up at a later time once we get a better feel for how LP's gonna work out in FB.

[Ironthunder]

Reinforcing my ideas from the staff chat that we probably should just put TMs in the MT. The overlap is huge. Source: Hi I'm the guy who keeps track of the TM and MT lists, there's now 49 regular MT moves that can't also be bought from the TM store, with an additional 31 other moves offered (Volt Tackle, Shadow moves and LGPE Partner moves.) We have an entire store for 80 special moves and Egg Move relearning.

My thoughts are: We merge the concepts. TMs, TRs and MTs all exist under the same list. There's significant overlap already. Everything becomes a TM. Calendar rewards were TM/TR and EM/MT? Update to TM and EM, or 2 TMs if the EM pool is exhausted. Shadow Moves become TMs, they were always available for purchase so there's no reason not to. AMs, most of those became TMs already, the only ones left are Volt Tackle and the Partner Moves from LGPE, and there's already been ideas floated to just make them standard MT moves.

tl;dr, there's not enough MT moves and too much overlap, we move the TM and TR shops here and make TM/TR/MT moves all TMs.

[Ex-Admiral Insane]

Only going to briefly give my 2 cents. 1 for each of the following points.

First, for the opening post:

Originally Posted by blu3shift

• Simplify the OP. It's a good thing that the rules are very clear, but it's a very daunting post to scroll through. Also not sure how you could pull this off though so it might be better to just disregard this point.

Originally Posted by Missingno. Master

• I'm glad the rules are clear, I made a definite effort to do that. Not sure how much I could simplify the OP (beyond the previous discussion regarding AMs obviously meaning that section of the OP would be gone), but I'm open to ideas as to what could make it less daunting to scroll through.

I took a look at it. My suggestion would be to hide each of the subsections ('Move Tutor', 'Egg Moves', 'Shadow Moves', etcetera) in their own spoiler tag. Make sure to still place the title right above each spoiler tag. This way, members can just open and close whatever section is relevant for them at the time. This would make it feel more navigable, and the opening post appear less daunting for new/returning members.


Second:
Considering what has already been stated in this thread - and considering the increasing complexity of changes the main series Pokémon games makes with moves - you might want to reassess how moves are learnt in FB completely.
The TM list changes with every gen and it now apparently has a huge(?) overlap with the MT/EM section. Perhaps simplify the Move Tutor to just be 'if you can prove the Pokémon learnt it at some point - MT, EM, TM or otherwise - then it can be taught'. Basically, you scrap the distinction between MT, EM, AM and TM moves; they just become one big glob of non-level up moves. This seems like a cleaner, simpler solution considering what has been said already, and functions almost the same as when fusing the MT and TM shop. I do believe however that some people preferred the distinction between TMs and other moves, with one costing more money and the other costing time for instance. So take this however you will.
TMs then probably won't be sold any more. So, instead, they would essentially function as vouchers for specific moves. These can be given out as thematic rewards during events or RP.
If doing this, you may also want to reevaluate pricing for moves, and whether you want to keep some moves as RP or zone-exclusive rewards or not.

[Heather]

If I’m going to be honest, I don’t think the MT distinction is very long for this world at the moment. As mentioned above, the only remaining Advanced Moves are very special case moves, one of which isn’t technically tutored, the others being likely exclusive to the let’s go games and thus in a really weird spot. But I think the biggest piece of evidence for MT mechanics going out of style is the recent TM-ification of the Pledges and starter Hyper Beams. If you look back at series history, the first games in a generation would be sorely lacking by way of MTs, but once these moves existed, they were always in these base versions, whereas third versions and remakes and whatnot would get shard/BP MTs. As of the Switch, third versions appear to be a thing of the past, with DLC stepping into that role. We might get a few more new moves in whatever DLC Scarlet and Violet will have, but it’s TM mechanics will doubtlessly lend themselves to being TMs. The end result is that the concept of tutor moves is dying out. And if I’m being honest, I wouldn’t mind TMs moving here from the Department Store and having the list centralized in the OP.

[Lil'twick]

Alrighty here are some of my thoughts real quick.

Personal Player POV Opinions:
-TMs and Co. Should for sure move to the MT
We use to have a TM exclusive shop that was then rolled into the Dept. Store instead of the MT when frankly it should've been folded into the MT.
-I agree on slashing prices. The MT was heavily used until its prices were raised. You still need to earn the money one way or another, so it should be more accessable
-AMs are something we have been wanting to rediscuss since to be honest, allowing the Partner Moves be taught unnaturally caused some... Major problems.Though, we should wait and see what to do first.

More mod POV opinions here:

-I do not believe in gating new players, or any player, in that matter. If they wish to start off with a trainer who would have a more experienced team, then allow them to. Fizzy Bubbles is a Pokemon RP that allows each member to have the team they want, and to be able to rp with that team. Just because there are ideas one member might have on how they wish to role play, others shouldn't be forced to conform to it.
-LP is designed to be a premium currency, and will have its uses with that in mind. Anything that uses currency will use Pokedollars unless explicitely stateed.

[Ironthunder]

If Partner moves are the issue, then I can understand them being pulled temporarily. I'd rather lose partner moves than have this be held up by an ancient mechanic. Hell, we could roll them into Bond discussions later if you wanted, maybe with some discussions as to conjuring different moves to finish the type wheel.

Originally Posted by Ex-Admiral Insane

Perhaps simplify the Move Tutor to just be 'if you can prove the Pokémon learnt it at some point - MT, EM, TM or otherwise - then it can be taught'.

Also wrt this, I'm generally kind of against it given the fact that we haven't checked for TM access for a while now. TMs have just been general access, if you have a TM you can teach it to anything. I think I speak for most people when I say I don't really see a benefit in reverting to distinguishing between "natural" and "unnatural" TMs.

WRT LP, compiling TMs into the MT seems to be a fairly common point here (at least most people so far seem to agree with that), and with this becoming the main source of movepool additions I am very much against the idea of the MT using LP. The mods have said LP is more of a premium currency, and the freedom to play around with movepools is imo the exact sort of thing we shouldn't be locking behind that kind of paywall.

Also reiterating my earlier point that with the overlap, I think it just makes sense to have everything classed as a TM. Gives people a bit more wiggle room with rewards and being able to buy things in advance to use in their own RP, and freedom of choice is a big thing.

Spoiler is the list of moves that atm are exclusive to the MT in its current iteration, so people can be aware of what'd be added to the TM pool functionally. Underlined are partner moves given that they're currently the iffier ones. One of the partner moves was missing from the OP. The fact this wasn't noticed before should indicate roughly how popular these moves have been.

Spoiler: show

Bug: Bug Bite, Skitter Smack, String Shot.
Dark: Baddy Bad, Knock Off, Lash Out, Sucker Punch.
Dragon: Dual Chop, Scale Shot, Twister.
Electric: Buzzy Buzz, Magnet Rise, Pika Papow, Rising Voltage, Volt Tackle, Zippy Zap.
Fairy: Baby-Doll Eyes, Misty Explosion, Sparkly Swirl.
Fighting: Coaching, Vacuum Wave.
Fire: Burning Jealousy, Sizzly Slide.
Flying: Bounce, Dual Wingbeat, Floaty Fall.
Ghost: Poltergeist, Ominous Wind, Spite.
Grass: Grassy Glide, Sappy Seed, Synthesis, Worry Seed.
Ground: Scorching Sands.
Ice: Freezy Frost, Ice Ball, Triple Axel.
Normal: After You, Bind, Block, Covet, Endeavor, Heal Bell, Laser Focus, Last Resort, Pain Split, Super Fang, Veevee Volley.
Poison: Corrosive Gas, Gastro Acid.
Psychic: Expanding Force, Glitzy Glow, Gravity, Magic Coat, Role Play, Terrain Pulse.
Rock: Ancient Power, Meteor Beam.
Shadow: All Shadow Moves. There's eighteen, so it forms a sizeable chunk of the additions.
Steel: Steel Roller.
Water: Aqua Tail, Bouncy Bubble, Flip Turn, Splishy Splash.

[Missingno. Master]

OK, let's see here.

1. I think my concerns about the Move Tutor selling TMs taking business away from the Department Store might be a moot point if the Department Store SO is on board with this idea. To be honest, that was my main reservation on this point, so yeah, bring on the TM sales!
2. Spoiler tags for the opening post, I like it. I might just implement that now, in fact.
3. It seems there's overwhelming support for the idea of axing the concept of Advanced Moves, making them MT moves, then making all MT moves teachable via TM, and all TM moves teachable by MT. This plus my proposed pricing plan, I feel makes sense.
4. No gating new players. In complete agreement with Lit on this one. My newest Trainer character is established to have many years of experience as a Trainer, having earned several Z-Crystals in Alola and all the Hoenn Gym Badges. Trainer characters can have any degree of experience with being a Trainer, and I firmly believe the shops should be there to help facilitate this through behind the scenes preparation before jumping into a zone adventure/free RP/whatever.
5. Lumping Egg moves into the TM system, however, that could get dicey. There's a lot of Egg moves out there. Signature moves, things that never were TM or MT moves... hell, just last night, I hatched a Stantler from Lit's Enigma Egg that has its own signature move, Psyshield Bash, as an Egg move. This is why I was suggesting "unnatural Egg moves" as more of a Heart Scale service.
6. I don't see the problem with the partner moves being teachable unnaturally. From where I stand, the idea was pretty well-received, and I don't really think it's resulted in anything truly broken in FB. Besides, they've already been teachable unnaturally, so the Purrloin's out of the bag one way or another.
7. LP being a premium currency, fair enough. That actually gives me an idea which I'll detail in my updated proposal below.
8. Also in agreement that the distinction between natural and unnatural MT moves should go just as it did with TMs- that is to say, away. I've made this clear above, and I stand by it.

With all this said and done, here's my updated proposal;

• TMs would become available for purchase in my shop. It seems there's nigh-universal support for this idea by this point, so I feel like we're not even arguing the point anymore.
• Cut prices entirely. Flat fee of ₽250 per move if taught through a weeklong stay, ₽500 per TM.
• Advanced Moves would disappear as a category. All current Advanced Moves would be merged into the Move Tutor moves category.
• All MT moves become TMs, and all TMs become MTs. I'm still on the fence about lumping Shadow Moves into this at the moment, but I'm not completely against it. We'd need a new TM minisprite for Shadow moves (contrary to popular believe, there's no Shadow type- Shadow moves are typeless, with matchups completely dependent on whether the target is a Shadow Pokémon or not), but I wouldn't be adverse to making one if we're leaning strongly in that direction. Firmly against lumping Egg moves into this, however. That's a concept that's sticking around in the main series. This would also likely mean that the Calendar would allow you to teach just one Egg move and one TM move, with two TMs for something with no Egg moves or has learned them all. That honestly sounds a lot simpler, and I'm down for it.
• You can teach a Pokémon an "unnatural Egg Move" for either 1 Heart Scale or 20,000 LP. The LP price is obviously negotiable, but I like the idea of having something of a premium service that you can only buy with a premium currency, and I was already suggesting this for the rare commodity known as Heart Scales, so I feel like this idea has merit. Honestly, I feel like taking the Heart Scale approach could lead to figuring out premium services that various shops could charge LP for.

[Ironthunder]

So what's the clarification for Unnatural Egg Moves? Just pick a move and learn it?

Also if we're lumping TMs and MTs together (as per point 4), why are TMs twice the cost of MTs (as per point 2)?

[Zorchic]

Originally Posted by Ironthunder

So what's the clarification for Unnatural Egg Moves? Just pick a move and learn it?

Also if we're lumping TMs and MTs together (as per point 4), why are TMs twice the cost of MTs (as per point 2)?

I'm a bit late to the discussion, so I may be interpreting this wrong, but it seems that an unnatural Egg Move would just be any move that is learned as an EM by at least one Pokémon.

I understood point 2 as "if you want to teach the move instantly, pay $500 Pokédollars; if you drop off your Pokémon to learn the move after a week, pay $250 instead." So the price change would be based on whether you want your Pokémon to learn the move immediately, or after a week-long stay like the Daycare.

MM's current proposal for updating the Move Tutor mechanics seems fine with me so far, I'm in support of it.

[Missingno. Master]

Originally Posted by Ironthunder

So what's the clarification for Unnatural Egg Moves? Just pick a move and learn it?

Unnatural Egg Moves would be, you pick a move to teach to something that's an Egg move for something else, anything else. Like teaching Psyshield Bash to an Ekans on the grounds that it's an Egg move for Stantler. It's gotta have some manner of limitation, or else it's just XMs with stupidly wide availability, and I have no doubt suggesting that would get shot down like a Corviknight in Tinkaton territory.

Originally Posted by Ironthunder

Also if we're lumping TMs and MTs together (as per point 4), why are TMs twice the cost of MTs (as per point 2)?

The idea is, you can either pay ₽500 to get the TM, and thus instantaneous access to teaching the move, or you pay ₽250 to leave the Pokémon to learn the move over the course of the week. The idea is giving you the option to either save money by being patient, or spend a little extra for the instant gratification.

EDIT: Zorchic hit the nail right on the head on both counts.

[Lil'twick]

Heavily against the unnatural egg move thing. We have a singular extra move of choice as a late stage, once per ladder Staff Rewards reward. That is still one of the few remaining updater exclusive things and this invalidates that completely. Everything else will be under mod review when final proposal

[blu3shift]

In general, for this discussion and the rest of the shop discussions: I think that making things simple and fast, yet RP-reliant in some way should be prioritized so that less time is being spent trying to tabulate everything and customers can devote the made-up time and energy towards RP, like what the mod team is trying to achieve. I'm of the belief that the shops should be auxiliary to the game itself, and I'm sure that a lot of you agree, but I've seen quite a few people disappear into the shops and never post outside of them for upwards of a year so there's some sort of imbalance here.

Going back to the OP, definitely fold some sections into each other. You have two different price tiers anyway, it makes sense to just combine everything that costs the same amount. Something along the lines of "We teach moves, egg moves, and shadow moves that your Pokémon doesn't learn passively, if it usually can't learn it then you'll have to pay extra." This is a gross oversimplification of everything but it should help you get the gist.

My main argument for the consolidation of MT moves and TMs is that as it stands right now Pokémon can pretty much just learn anything in FB if you're willing to pay for it. I understand the "buying TMs only to give them to a Pokémon that doesn't naturally learn it" issue but I think that can be solved with an "unnatural move-teaching service"—probably for a high price or a bit of LP.

Egg moves, shadow moves, and custom moves are justified in standing on their own (though I could probably make a case for the latter because most of them are associated with glorified TMs already). I'm actually not sure what XMs are as someone who doesn't pay very much attention to the non-Zone parts of FB but if they're what I remember them being then they definitely should stay on their own too.

The "stay for a week" penalty also might only make sense when you want to teach moves to your Pokémon in bulk, but I also think that it makes it less likely for someone to participate in RP because that one mon that they really want to use isn't going to have an ideal moveset for a month and a half. I'd consider getting rid of it (but this may be a bad idea so give it a lot of consideration first!)

[lilboocorsola]

Popping in with a possible suggestion to just... remove the one-week stay entirely and make MT Moves and TMs equal rate? MTs in the games have always been instantaneous, so it's not like there's real precedent for having to wait. '~'

[Missingno. Master]

Originally Posted by Lil'twick

Heavily against the unnatural egg move thing. We have a singular extra move of choice as a late stage, once per ladder Staff Rewards reward. That is still one of the few remaining updater exclusive things and this invalidates that completely. Everything else will be under mod review when final proposal

The stipulation of it needing to be an established Egg move for something else doesn't do anything for this? Because that does make a lot of moves ineligible for this, like legendary signature moves. Frankly, that stipulation is the only reason I dared to suggest this in the first place, because I was aiming for this to very much not be an easy XM.

That being said, if you did indeed take all that into consideration and stand by this call, that's fine and I'll respect it, but that in turn leads us back to what we can do with the Heart Scale for my shop, because I stand by my initial point- its current effect doesn't cut the mustard. It's not enticing enough. I myself find that I use all my Heart Scales on levels at the Daycare.

Originally Posted by blu3shift

In general, for this discussion and the rest of the shop discussions: I think that making things simple and fast, yet RP-reliant in some way should be prioritized so that less time is being spent trying to tabulate everything and customers can devote the made-up time and energy towards RP, like what the mod team is trying to achieve. I'm of the belief that the shops should be auxiliary to the game itself, and I'm sure that a lot of you agree, but I've seen quite a few people disappear into the shops and never post outside of them for upwards of a year so there's some sort of imbalance here.

Going back to the OP, definitely fold some sections into each other. You have two different price tiers anyway, it makes sense to just combine everything that costs the same amount. Something along the lines of "We teach moves, egg moves, and shadow moves that your Pokémon doesn't learn passively, if it usually can't learn it then you'll have to pay extra." This is a gross oversimplification of everything but it should help you get the gist.

My main argument for the consolidation of MT moves and TMs is that as it stands right now Pokémon can pretty much just learn anything in FB if you're willing to pay for it. I understand the "buying TMs only to give them to a Pokémon that doesn't naturally learn it" issue but I think that can be solved with an "unnatural move-teaching service"—probably for a high price or a bit of LP.

Egg moves, shadow moves, and custom moves are justified in standing on their own (though I could probably make a case for the latter because most of them are associated with glorified TMs already). I'm actually not sure what XMs are as someone who doesn't pay very much attention to the non-Zone parts of FB but if they're what I remember them being then they definitely should stay on their own too.

The "stay for a week" penalty also might only make sense when you want to teach moves to your Pokémon in bulk, but I also think that it makes it less likely for someone to participate in RP because that one mon that they really want to use isn't going to have an ideal moveset for a month and a half. I'd consider getting rid of it (but this may be a bad idea so give it a lot of consideration first!)

I'm not sure that the imbalance is necessarily a problem on the shops' end, personally. Like, whether you feel your Pokémon are ready or not, you yourself also gotta be in the mood to write out RP, and then there's waiting for updates- two of my own zone adventures haven't moved in over a year, and that's just because the updator's had a lot on their plate, nobody's actually at fault there. And as for making things RP-reliant in some fashion, I mean... the service costs Pokédollars, which you earn through RP. And true, some people have a big ol' balance saved up, but that's exactly what led to LP becoming a thing- entice people to empty their wallets for premium goods, so they have to RP to earn more cash. I expect we'll be seeing the effects of that in due time, since, again, brand new system in place.

If my proposal goes through, the pricing's gonna change anyway- any service that requires a dropoff will cost ₽250 per move, and TMs will be ₽500 apiece, so that aspect will get simplified in due time regardless. But yeah- definitely gonna look into what more I can simplify with that, especially when it invariably comes time to rewrite large chunks of it anyway.

Now, I don't think anyone's really arguing against consolidating TMs and MTs at this point. What I will argue against is an unnatural move learning service for a higher price- that's what we have now, and that's something I've been arguing to get rid of. TMs will still cost the same regardless of whether that TM Flamethrower is intended for your Growlithe or your Sunkern, so if you have to pay extra to teach a move unnaturally as a Move Tutor stay... no. Like, even though I'm already in favor of absorbing TM selling into the shop, and thus it would no longer drive away potential customers since they can still buy the TM from me, there's still just no sense to it anymore. I feel like my idea has merit- if it's a TM or MT move, you can either leave the mon at the shop for the week to learn it for a cheaper price, or pay a bit more to teach it more instantaneously.

XMs are basically moves that a Pokémon can't learn under any other circumstances even in FB. Like, Bone Rush on an Alolan Sandslash- normally completely impossible. I've already established I have no desire to incorporate XMs into my shop, mainly because there ain't a font size large enough for the "NO" I would collectively get from all the mods simultaneously.

...a month and a half? OK, perhaps I haven't made this so clear with my own actions in that shop as of late, since I've generally just dropped off something to learn one move per week, but you do know you're allowed to drop off a mon to learn multiple moves in a week, right? The only limit is, it's one Pokémon per week. You can drop it off to learn as many moves as you can afford. If you want to see perhaps the most extreme example I've either seen or facilitated, here is where I dropped off my Jigglypuff to learn a grand total of 22 moves in one week. Paid a hefty sum for that, sure, especially considering the various unnatural moves in there, but under the proposed pricing, such a stay would get cut down from ₽11,900 to a mere ₽5,500. Which is still a hefty sum in its own right, but I should reiterate that we're talking my most extreme example here, which included an event move, two unnatural Advanced Moves, and every single Shadow move in existence.

Originally Posted by lilboocorsola

Popping in with a possible suggestion to just... remove the one-week stay entirely and make MT Moves and TMs equal rate? MTs in the games have always been instantaneous, so it's not like there's real precedent for having to wait. '~'

...y'know what, you're not wrong. Move tutorage has always been instantaneous in the games. The Daycare makes sense because there's precedent in the games for that to take time, but this... yeah, that's a valid point, honestly. And tacking on the sale of TMs would mean that this shop would potentially see spontaneous activity in need of confirmation anyway... y'know what, yeah, the more I think about this, the more I think it could work. And it would alleviate blu's concerns about how long it could potentially take to actually get a Pokémon a decent moveset, too (well, even moreso than my clarification on the matter does, I mean to say).

[Missingno. Master]

Gonna run a few miscellaneous ideas by y'all.

1. Sell Custom Moves for LP in the Move Tutor. They're already for sale in the LP Emporium, but since we're talking moving all things move-learning related to the Move Tutor, this seems like a natural choice. It'd still cost the same amount of LP, just, different shop, y'know?
2. Heart Scales would entitle you to a shopping spree set at a fixed amount of Pokédollars. Let's say ₽3,000 worth of moves learned, purely as an example. If my unnatural Egg move idea is well and truly off the table, then maybe there's a balance to be struck between how it is and how I was suggesting it be. Like, as it stands now, it just teaches five MT and/or Egg moves, nothing unnatural. That's... incredibly restrictive, honestly, and perhaps that's one of the reasons Heart Scales never get used in the Move Tutor. Last time someone tried to use one, I had to deny the stay because the moves chosen weren't compatible with that particular form of Zigzagoon. With this, though, you could just pick the moves, could even go for a mix of moves to be learned in the shop, and TM moves, if we go with lilblue's idea of making the process instantaneous (which honestly I am very much in favor of).
3. Find some way to work legendary/Mythical-exclusive MT moves into my services. These would obviously be entirely for unnatural move learning purposes, since I'm pretty sure Rayquaza, Meloetta, and Keldeo just naturally get Dragon Ascent, Relic Song, and Secret Sword respectively now, but they are Move Tutor moves in the main series. I won't push too hard for this if the answer from the mods is a resounding NO, but when I thought of it I knew I'd be remiss to not at least ask about it.

[Lil'twick]

Originally Posted by Missingno. Master

Gonna run a few miscellaneous ideas by y'all.

1. Sell Custom Moves for LP in the Move Tutor. They're already for sale in the LP Emporium, but since we're talking moving all things move-learning related to the Move Tutor, this seems like a natural choice. It'd still cost the same amount of LP, just, different shop, y'know?
   
   
2. Find some way to work legendary/Mythical-exclusive MT moves into my services. These would obviously be entirely for unnatural move learning purposes, since I'm pretty sure Rayquaza, Meloetta, and Keldeo just naturally get Dragon Ascent, Relic Song, and Secret Sword respectively now, but they are Move Tutor moves in the main series. I won't push too hard for this if the answer from the mods is a resounding NO, but when I thought of it I knew I'd be remiss to not at least ask about it.

No.

In all seriousness if we wished to incorporate custom moves into the shop wr would have told you before hand. Thr LP Emporium will not be touched until we see more use of it, and LP will be locked to it as of this time. End of discussion.

And for point number 3 we have repeatedly denied thid in the past across.multiple mod teams and it'll say the same. If you eant a legendary move on a mon, earn it through updating.

For the second point it is a solid suggestion and will need to give it more thought.

[Missingno. Master]

Originally Posted by Lil'twick

No.

In all seriousness if we wished to incorporate custom moves into the shop wr would have told you before hand. Thr LP Emporium will not be touched until we see more us of it, and LP will be locked to it. End of discussion.

And for point number 3 we have repeatedly denied thid in the past across.multiple mod teams and it'll say the same. If you eant a legendary move on a mon, ear it through updating.

For the second point it is a solid suggestion and will need to give it more thought.

Valid, asked and answered, message received and understood. Honestly in hindsight I should've figured if you intended to work the Custom Moves for LP thing into my shop I'd have been informed of it by now.

Gonna be heading out in a little while (getting a new phone today!), but when I get back, I'll draft up a new version of my proposal based on recent suggestions and feedback.

[Prof.Enigma]

Originally Posted by Missingno. Master

Valid, asked and answered, message received and understood. Honestly in hindsight I should've figured if you intended to work the Custom Moves for LP thing into my shop I'd have been informed of it by now.

Gonna be heading out in a little while (getting a new phone today!), but when I get back, I'll draft up a new version of my proposal based on recent suggestions and feedback.

Me: Looks at the thread when it starts " Oh cool I have time to wait and write my stuff"

Comes back and looks at it now "Oh... F#$^"

Leo has answered most of what I would have typed up as a Mod.

However, as someone who doesn't touch the MT shop in general ( personal standpoint here ), I like these changes proposed so far. Before I get set in stone and throw out any more opinions I will wait until you finish up another draft

[Missingno. Master]

OK. *cracks knuckles* Here we go. My latest proposal is as follows;

1. Change the format of the shop entirely. It would go from being a weekly dropoff deal to, you post in here to either buy TMs or just have a Pokémon learning a move, and I confirm these transactions as I see them. This would also mean the shop would be open for move teaching seven days a week, as opposed to just Monday through Friday. The weekly dropoff format works for the Daycare because there's ingame precedent for it, but in any main series game, move tutoring is instantaneous.
2. Provide TMs for purchase. This idea has had nigh-universal support, and I see no reason to argue the point.
3. Cut prices across the board. Now, since we're talking dropping the weekly dropoff format altogether, I think my previously suggested pricing scheme no longer needs to apply here. All moves would become the same price across the board, be they TM, MT, Egg, Shadow, event, or level-up. Whether that price is ₽250 or ₽500, I think we can still discuss- I know ₽250 was suggested with the weekly dropoff format in mind, but honestly, we've been talking cutting prices anyway, so I feel like this price still has merit. Lit said it very well earlier- the Move Tutor was seeing a buttload of business until prices went up, and with LP now being a thing, I think there's less risk of this leading to overly-bloated bank balances.
4. All Advanced Moves would become MT moves. I've made my views on this clear by now- the concept of Advanced Moves as a whole has lost its luster in a big way.
5. All MT moves become TMs, and vice versa. Another idea with very wide support, considering the ever-increasing overlap between the two categories, especially in this day and age. This would mean you'd have the option to have a Pokémon get taught the move within the shop, or to buy the TM to teach it at your own discretion. Note that I'm only talking MT moves specifically here, not Shadow moves, event moves, etc.
6. 1 Heart Scale is good for ₽3,000 worth of my services. In its current format it's incredibly restrictive compared to the vast scope of the Move Tutor's services. The Pokédollar amount it'd be worth is entirely negotiable if we're thinking higher or lower, I just threw it out there as an example for the time being.
7. More than one Pokémon would be allowed per post, provided you have the funds. This is a change from how it usually works, which is to say, you can pay for as many moves per week as you have the ₽₽₽ for, they just all gotta be for one Pokémon. With this, however, I see no reason why you couldn't come in here and shell out ₽1,000 to teach Shadow Break to an Exeggcute, Flamethrower to a Cryogonal, and Bubble and Reversal to a Magikarp all in one post. Also, you would be allowed to pay for a mixture of moves taught on-site and TMs purchased all at once if you so chose- again, only limit would be that of your own wallet.

[Lil'twick]

I'll be honest, I like this a lot. There are a few things we'd need to discuss, but I've sent this proposal in for mod discussion.

[KingSalmon]

My input might be of limited usefulness but from a newcomer standpoint my only gripe is that I feel the MT prices as they stand are... not attractive for the rate at which we can make money, and all the more so now that converting money into something else (LP) feels vastly more alluring. So I would welcome a price revision for Tutor moves, if that's an option!

[Missingno. Master]

Originally Posted by KingSalmon

My input might be of limited usefulness but from a newcomer standpoint my only gripe is that I feel the MT prices as they stand are... not attractive for the rate at which we can make money, and all the more so now that converting money into something else (LP) feels vastly more alluring. So I would welcome a price revision for Tutor moves, if that's an option!

Oh, general consensus seems to be cutting prices is the way to go. My latest proposal suggests cutting the price as far down to ₽250 a move, even for unnatural moves.

Also, input is welcome from any and all FB members whether they've been here a few weeks or a few decades or anything in between, wanna make that clear here and now.