Mahoutsukai no Yoru

[Talon87]

Chapter 8 Section 5: Whiteboard

I can't call this one "Chapter 8.5" because Nasu's a butt and has gone and assigned the 8.5 name to a later bonus chapter. So much for my carefully crafted chapter and subchapter numbering scheme ... ;(

"Whiteboard" is the fifth subchapter of Chapter 08. The first four subchapters ("Mountain Cleaning During Winter Break", "The Witch and The Feral Child", "A Collar for a Present?", and "A Calm Morning") are all part of the built-in main story experience, but "Whiteboard" you have to access via the archive.

Spoiler: show

Soujuurou's neck bandages: They go missing in this chapter. =o Or at least, they go missing while he is outdoors clearing brush and litter again with Kinomi and Tobimaru. He's wearing the white dog collar that Aoko "gifted" to him, but that's all he's wearing around his neck. We actually get to see more of Soujuurou's neck this scene with the dog collar on than we've ever gotten to see before!

Aoko's preferences: In a scene where Kumari falls just short of spilling the beans that she has a crush on Tobimaru, we get this line from Aoko regarding her own preferences in men: "I'm not into the pretty boys. I need a macho man. Like that Austrian."

Huh. This is Aozaki Aoko, someone famous in the fandom for a (perhaps fandom-teased) attraction towards adolescent boys. We would later see this exact same attraction written into Nasu's FGO waifu, Miyamoto Musashi, who shares many personality traits with the Aozaki Aoko of Tsukihime.

But the Aozaki Aoko of Mahoutsukai no Yoru has so far been almost a completely different person. Or, as I've remarked to Yuki several times now: Tohsaka Rin. Aoko is basically a Rin-clone, perhaps not in looks but yes in behavior and personality. The way Aoko talks, the way she interacts with Soujuurou, the way she speaks of herself, her family, and the greater wizarding world...

So it's interesting to see Nasu declare something like this when:

• it suits Aozaki Aoko the Rinfacesoul so well, as well as justifying to readers that yes, Aoko x Soujuurou is meant to be~
• it doesn't seem to fit shota-chaser Adult Aozaki Aoko at all ^^;

Still. Huh. I wonder what fanart we could expect out of this. Would Aoko's preferred Servant be someone like Orion? Or maybe Archer Heracles? What about the classic Iskandar? Hm.

Anyway, at the end of the day, Aoko declaring "I LIKE MUSCLE GUYS! >o" coming directly after the reveal of Shizuki Soujuurou's muscly ripped body is about as declarative as these things come. =p What a fickle god. One minute he's declaring that they have absolutely "no chemistry" together ... the next minute he's declaring things like this. And it isn't just Aoko who's got feelings for Soujuurou ...

Soujuurou's feelings: Soujuurou declares to the boys that he is attracted to girls and that he does have "the same" thoughts and feelings that other boys his age do. This is of course then obfuscated for cheap laughs ... But if you watch closely, you'll notice that throughout the conversation, Soujuurou's interest is piqued whenever the conversation turns to Aoko; and he becomes strangely... maybe not "possessive", but certainly some variant on the word whenever Kinomi details his past attempts at flirting with Aoko.

I dunno. This is all such a mess. Hope doesn't seem dead for Soujuurou being aromantic, either, as Tobimaru seems to conclude after some question-and-answering that he and Kinomi were wrong, Soujuurou isn't "just like other guys", Soujuurou's idea of liking Aoko and other guys' idea of liking Aoko are completely different things.

Maybe Soujuurou is just a fiery lil' kitty who is fiercely defensive of his mama/master. >o :'3

Kinomi's attempt: So what did Kinomi exactly say or do? Well... First it's implied that, at the high school entrance ceremony, Kinomi went up to Aoko to flirt with her and subconsciously reached for her boob and squeezed it. O_o That's obviously crossing a few boundaries that, surprise surprise, is played for light laughs here, "Oh, poor Kinomi! ", hahaha, I'll bet Aoko fucked you up real good. (And sure enough, it's explained that she delivered a kick to his jaw so powerful it knocked him out -- and, in a possible reference to Tsukihime, it's implied that Aoko literally almost killed him.)

But then we get the quote. o_o lol ^^; Because Soujuurou wants to know -- what did Kinomi say to her, exactly?

"Wow, your knockers are HUGE!"

Moving right along ...

Tea or Coffee: We learn an interesting bit of character lore here that could possibly be symbolic. Alice Kuonji is well-established as a tea drinker by this point in the game. This chapter section in particular establishes that Alice's routine, ideally, is to have tea at seven different points in the day. While this discussion is happening, we learn from Aoko that she used to be a coffee drinker like her sister, but after she met Alice she became a black tea person. Huh. So it goes:

• Alice: black tea
• Touko: coffee
• Aoko: was coffee, is now black tea

I don't want to read into this too far and I'm not sure what exactly Nasu would even be trying to say with this other than that Alice has had a profound impact on Aoko's personhood. But it is interesting food for thought hidden in an innocuous fluffy little scene about beverage preferences.

Soujuurou's assessment: Soujuurou wants to learn more about Ploys. What they are, how they work. Alice seems reluctant (perhaps because she views it as a waste of time since Soujuurou's memories are soon to be erased?), but Aoko is eager to explain as best as she can to Soujuurou how Ploy Kickshaws work.

And then we get this amazing bit of script.

Alice: "I knew this would happen. Shizuki-kun probably has the worst memory in the universe."
She almost said he was better off dead, but took a deep breath to avoid being hurtful.

Aoko: "I'm sorry, Alice. I feel for you on this one. I've no idea how he can reduce our magecraft down to 'amazingly convenient.' If any other mage heard that, they'd faint from the pure insult of it."
Aoko was exasperated; she also felt some measure of regret. She should have realized this would be the outcome.

Soujuurou: "That's not true at all. I can tell the difference between your magecraft. Aozaki just breaks stuff. Alice makes things to break stuff with. Therefore, Alice is a little more productive."

Not too much else to say here. I just wanted to share that I found this moment quite precious and funny, and from here I feel like the subchapter really picks up.

The whiteboard: This was an... interesting development. *shrug* I don't really understand how Soujuurou gets away with telling Alice what to do, but I guess it boils down to "She knows he has the moral high ground" and "She's falling for him fast and hard." =p ^^; Still. Soujuurou brings home a whiteboard, identifies four primary chores, and tells the girls that he will be dividing the chores amongst the three of them and that from now on everyone has to pitch in equally and take turns.

Alice: "...I just hope he doesn't add any new chores to the list."
She would come to regret ever saying those words.

What an unexpectedly exciting cliffhanger. ^_^; lol I'm genuinely curious to see what could be meant by this.

More bonus chapters: So, last time I mentioned that we had two bonus chapters -- one was part of Chapter 08, "Whiteboard", while the other is its own stand-alone chapter. This is the one that Nasu identifies as the official Chapter 8.5, and it's called "The Carnegie Case".

But upon completion of "Whiteboard", a new bonus chapter appears on the bookshelf -- for the first time ever, we have a gap in between books, and a rather sizeable one at that. Labeled "Extra", this bonus chapter is called "The Wonderful World of Ploys". It contains two subchapters, "The Wonderful World of Ploys 1" and "The Wonderful World of Ploys 2". The chapters, they're multiplying! @[email protected]

I think my gameplan is going to be to go ahead and read Chapter 8.5 next ... and then make a judgment call on whether I think I'm meant to proceed to Chapter 9 next or if I'm meant to read The Wonderful World of Ploys next. I don't want the latter to spoil end-game reveals and content, but I also feel like Nasu is (hopefully!) kind enough and smart enough to realize this risk and not allow it to happen, i.e. if any end-game ploys are yet to be revealed, they won't be discussed in subchapters 1 or 2, but instead in a later subchapter 3 or 4 that I have yet to unlock. We'll see. *shrug*

[Talon87]

Chapter 8.5: The Carnegie Case

Spoiler: show

This post has been delayed by several weeks. Apologies! This was actually a very cute side story -- probably objectively "the best side story in the game" so far, but "Martha" still takes 1st place for me personally and this chapter really doesn't come into its own until the final few acts. I'm still not entirely certain why it's called the "Carnegie Case", although I assume had something to do with pyramid schemes? 🤷

Soujuurou's side job: So our chapter begins with Aoko and Alice questioning how Soujuurou is coming home with fat wads of cash day in and day out. Concerned that Soujuurou may have been swept up in some sort of MLM scheme, Aoko investigates (more on that later!). But in the end, we discover, Soujuurou really has been doing something innocent and legal -- he's been keeping a rich old lady company. ='3 I know I'm sort of taking the chapter backwards in a sense, but I thought that this was a cute twist.

Soujuurou has a line here that is featured in at least one of the promotional trailers. I think it's a rather melancholic, "!"-ing line, one which definitely activates my Spidey Senses as far as hidden meaning or symbolic significance go:

You know, sometimes this town catches me off guard.
Everyone looks so happy and blessed, but if you look hard enough you start to see that's not always the case. It's like the entire town is fooling me.

Hmm...

Aoko vs. the Light of Truth: So this was very cute also. I think as side stories go, it is the perfect chapter at exploring who Aozaki Aoko is. What are her beliefs, what are her convictions, what are her strengths, what are her weaknesses ... It's all on full, glorious display here. When Aoko finds out that Soujuurou isn't here and he isn't on their roster, that's probably the best part of the entire side story. Poor Aoko. ^^; But as she notes, she still did a net good, taking out a predatory business operation that was preying on Misaki City's feeblest and most vulnerable.

The Tsukiji Group: So in this chapter, we learn a surprising bit about a side character's backstory. =o Meet Tsukiji Tobimaru, Student Council Vice President, Shizuki Soujuurou bodyguard, and heir apparent to the Tsukiji Group. We learn that Tobimaru's grandfather married into the Tsukiji clan, built them into the economic force that they are today, and that the current intra-clan political climate is such that Tobimaru's father resents his own son for being whom Grandfather will likely designate his heir.

Glimpses into the muggle side characters' lives like this one are interesting if nothing else. We didn't get too deep of a look into (say) Arihiko's or Taiga's lives in Tsukihime and Fate/stay night, respectively, but the expanded Fate universe for the latter and TsukiRe for the former have given opportunities to build these characters up from simple background fauna into fully-realized human beings with their own hopes, dreams, and motivations in this world filled with magic and sorcery. While I'm certainly not here for Tsukiji Tobimaru and his difficult life as the heir apparent to Misaki City's karei naru ichizoku , I can't say I exactly object to detours like this either. It's a fun opportunity to see how muggle characters who lead their own larger-than-life lives interweave with the larger-than-life mages, wizards, and witches of Type-Moon's tales. Kiritsugu developed friendships with Taiga's grandfather and Issei's father. Waver found family in Glen and Martha Mackenzie. I like that we get to see a glimpse at the lives of these children-turning-young-adults who were a part of Aoko's formative youth. Perhaps we'll see them again some day.

Alice & Bakery Ojii-chan: Speaking of character development, there is this other little bit with Alice and the founder of KitsyLand, the amusement park we saw in Chapter 05. Tobimaru and Alice apparently know one another through rich people social circles, although Tobimaru is quick to internally note for us that the Kuonji family is on a completely different level of power and influence than the Tsukijis. Alice likewise also apparently knows "Bakery Ojii-chan", which is what I am calling him since I have sadly forgotten his name, not noted it down, and it's difficult to Google. ^^; ;( And Bakery Ojii-chan knows Tobimaru and the Tsukiji family. It's a small little world and they're all players in it. =') Not too much else to say here though. ^^;

Sister Yuika: She's back! ='D For a short, glorious moment, she's back onscreen for the first time since Chapter 1.5.4! It's been a while! This was something I had written about for my next post, which is a sort of general thoughts & reactions post as we're nearing the game's final stretch(?), and I'm happy to see that Yuika's appearance has rendered that criticism moot but disappointed that she still barely features ^_^; and does most of her "influencing" offscreen.

Alice's Dinner Order: When Alice looked [pictured above] at the mention of Soujuurou intending to give all of the money back to the old lady, I thought where this was going was that Alice was going to admit to having already spent some or all of it. ^^; The fact that she simply ordered takeout for the three of them came to me as something of a relief! Although to Aoko and Soujuurou it was still a massive "uh oh" as they scrambled to figure out who was going to pay for it. ^^;

Translation: There was a little mo' of translation that stood out at me earlier in Chapter 08 that I had thought to share with you guys, relating to the conversation earlier about the game's TL. I opted not to share it in the end, but feel like I should now because of a new bit o' TL in Chapter 8.5 that I have to share with you guys. XD (Spoiler tagging for length and quasi-off topicness.)

Spoiler: show

Chapter 08's TL moment: There's a section during the outdoors scene early on where one of the characters, I believe it was Tobimaru, describes somebody else as "想像出来ない金持ち" souzou dekinai kanemochi. Translated by me, this would be "[They're] so rich you can't [even] imagine [how rich they are]." My specific line of choice, matching what they said with how I personally talk, would probably be "They're so rich you can't even imagine." souzou, an image or picture in your mind. dekinai, "cannot [do]". kanemochi, rich. "Rich to the level that you can't picture it in your head." There's loads of ways to translate simple language, and the way our team opted for was...:

They're filthy rich, okay?

It's generally accurate. Some might even say it's better than what I offered -- it makes an attempt to account for the speaker's station, for his mannerisms and social class, as well for his current mental state and attitude. But it also kinda swerves around the original in an unnecessary way. ^^; We've lost the idea of souzou dekinai and veered into kegarawashii hodo "so [blank] it's disgusting/filthy", and we didn't have to. Souzou dekinai translates cleanly into native English, we share the exact same expression with the Japanese, there's no need to approximate it in this instance.

Iunno. *shrug* Translation is hard. There's always a critic ... XD >.>; Hats off again to the TL team -- I think they've generally done a great job with this script so far. I'm frequently impressed by their fluid choices. I also want to say hats off to whoever proofread Chapter 08 as, unlike its predecessor, this one was a welcome return to professional form with nary a grammatical error. (That or I've gotten used to them by now, either/or. >.>; It's just that grammatical errors if there were any didn't really jump out at me in Chapter 08.)

Chapter 8.5's TL moment: Okay. XD So there's a scene in this chapter where Tobimaru, thinking about his family situation, recalls a conversation -- real or imagined, I forget -- in which a foreign investor (whom he suspects of harboring intentions to take over the Tsukiji family business) suggests to Tobimaru's father that the two families ought to pair the foreign family's daughter with Tobimaru to bring their two families together. Tobimaru's less than thrilled with this, and remarks:

そもそも金髪女の相手なんざ願い下げだぜ。向こうで海兵相手尻振ってろってんだ
Somosomo kinpatsu onna nanza negaisage da ze. Mukou de kaihei aite shiri futtero ttenda

My literal TL: In the first place, a blonde woman for a partner, I'm gonna have to turn down that offer. I'm saying she can go and shake her ass for some sailors beyond.
My casual TL: I ain't interested in a blonde for a wife in the first place. Tell her to go shake her ass for some sailors over there.
Their TL: And I'm not interested in blondes, anyway. She can take her skanky, money-grubbing hands elsewhere. I'll pass.

Once again, we see what I've been trying to tell you about. ^_^; The translation on offer here is emotionally accurate -- it gets the same point across as the original script does -- but it is technically something of a rewrite with how it deletes the sailors, substitutes out "tell her to shake her ass" for calling her "skanky", adds "money-grubbing" ... I honestly prefer their first sentence to my own (Casual) first one, it's really good! It's the second one where I feel like we went a bridge too far and just ... lost the specifics of the original needlessly? ^^; *shrug* But it's also more professionally edited than mine, it reads like more natural English, which should be the goal with any translation, so ... 🤷

As with the one above, I want to re-emphasize that on the whole the English language team's translation does not suffer these sorts of problems. They stand out (in particular like this one) precisely because of how both colorful and yet different the original dialogue is to what was offered in translation. Generally, the team does very well -- much better than I feel like I could do -- and I want to give them that credit.

[Talon87]

Intermission

As we near the two-thirds completion mark of the game, I thought I would take this time to discuss some things. Some general impressions, some unanswered questions ...

Spoiler: show

Unanswered Questions

First off, a bunch of questions that remain unanswered as of this point in the game. I'm not seeking answers from anyone reading this post. If you do know or suspect the answers, just consider each of the following questions to have been rhetorically presented for the time being. Why share them at all then, you may ask? I just thought it'd be fun, both for my future self and for anyone else in the future who is reading this thread while playing the game for the first time, to see what were the questions I was considering and what were the questions I was not considering; what were the hypotheses I had in mind for various questions; so on and so forth.

Question #1: Who or what is Shizuki Soujuurou? I'll go ahead and lump all of Soujuurou's mysteries in together here. What is the deal with his neck bandages? What is up with his high tolerance/stamina? What's the deal with his lean, super-muscular body? What about those arm scars? What about his brain? His memory, his ability or inability to learn, his way of thinking, his way of interpreting information archived in his brain... There's a lot we still don't know about Shizuki Soujuurou, and Nasu seems intent on keeping it closely guarded until the end of the game, if we're even so lucky to get it all answered then.

The hypotheses we've playfully put forward so far are:

1. Soujuurou is the soul of the kitten from the prologue of the game reincarnated into a human body. This serves to explain his connection with Aoko. It explains some of his more "feline" behaviors. It potentially explains both the bandages around his neck (near decapitation as a kitten) and the scars on his left arm (deep wounds as a kitten). It may explain why Soujuurou is seen walking everywhere, even despite being a delivery boy who would greatly benefit from riding a moped. (An aversion to vehicular motors and engines, perhaps.) It could explain his startling ignorance, both academic and "worldsmarts", when it comes to the human world. But it also feels too easy. If it ends up being correct, this is a BokuMachi situation all over again. I don't think it's correct, though. I think it's a red herring.
2. Soujuurou is a robot. This hypothesis, introduced by Doppel, has gotten at least one possible nod in a recent chapter. While the term "robot" can be used broadly, I will specify a few related hypotheses below as well. Things that support the robot hypothesis include: (1) Soujuurou's possible lack of need for real sleep. He sometimes says he's going to sleep as he retires to his bedroom, but we never actually see him fall asleep or wake up. The one time we've known Soujuurou to be unconscious was due to blunt force trauma to the head; (2) Soujuurou's minimal food intake, especially for someone who seemingly expends as many calories as he does; (3) various of Soujuurou's superhuman feats (like the time he survived a 100-foot fall with only a magic egg a meter long to break his fall).
3. Soujuurou is a homunculus. In the traditional Type-Moon sense; see "Einzbern homunculi" for comparison. Essentially, Soujuurou is a man-made person who, per Nasu's word-of-god arguments, lacks a soul. This could help to explain his childlike innocence (he looks 16 but in reality he's only 2 to 3 years old) coupled with his teen-like behaviors elsewhere (this is how T-M homunculi work).
4. Soujuurou is [see spoiler box below]. This hypothesis builds off of knowledge not yet revealed and is a legitimate spoiler for anyone playing the game for the first time. Inside the first spoiler box, I'll say what you'll need to know to safely read the hypothesis; I'll then place the actual hypothesis inside of the second spoiler box.

Spoiler: show

In order to safely read this hypothesis, you would need to know the identity of the enemy magus.

Spoiler: show

Soujuurou may be a puppet. Specifically, a puppet fashioned by Aozaki Touko. This too can explain Soujuurou's relevance to the story. It's possible that he is the soul of the kitten, yes, but not reincarnated into a human body, no -- affixed to a doll of Touko's. What looked like failure in the prologue was in fact masked success -- Touko had secretly(?) successfully affixed the kitten's soul to one of her dolls. From there, it's the usual Touko magic of soul transference. It's entirely believable that Soujuurou's current body is the Mark 2 or the Mark 3 of doll-bodies that Touko has been providing to the kitten's soul. Perhaps while Touko was away on business, the doll awoke from slumber, moseyed on down the mountain, and assumed life in Misaki City? Perhaps it's the other way around, and Touko sent Soujuurou into Misaki City specifically to fuck with Aoko on any number of levels.

While it remains unclear at this time who or what exactly Soujuurou is, I am optimistic that we are going to find out before the game's over.

Question #2: Who is the enemy magus? This I already know the answer to, so all I really wanted to say here is, we're two-thirds of the way into the story and the mystery assailant still has yet to be revealed. I would be curious to know what a first-timer's thoughts or predictions here are.

Question #3: When will we meet the remaining characters on the collector's box art? We still have yet to formally meet the lady in the green dress, the glasses-wearing Church guy, or the slightly crazed-looking boy with the blond hair and green eyes.

Question #4: When are we going to see the two Church ladies again? The blind sister and the passerby in the peach-colored blouse, neither character has ever shown up again*. The game went out of its way in an early scene to argue that Soujuurou and Aoko will both be "volunteering" at the Church as a part-time gig, yet we've never seen any evidence of this ever again. Nothing Soujuurou's said, nothing he's been shown doing... *shrug* *Update: I wrote this post up originally before completing Chapter 8.5 and, what do you know, Sister Yuika shows up at the very end of it to rough some religious cult scam artists up and show them the true power of the Lord. She still hasn't done too much though, so the bulk of this paragraph still mostly stands. Still, though! Good to see the church ladies haven't been completely forgotten!

Question #5: Is Alice Kuonji going to survive this? Alice is a character we've not seen nor heard from again in any media outside of Mahoutsukai no Yoru. That doesn't necessarily mean that she's dead or incapacitated, but I am curious.

Question #6: Is Shizuki Soujuurou going to survive this? Same exact question for Soujuurou.

Question #7: By the end of this game, how closely will Aozaki Aoko resemble her future Tsukihime self in personality? At this rate, I am expecting ~0%. Alright, maybe "0%" is an exaggeration, especially after "The Carnegie Case" where Aoko exhibited some behaviors that are both in character for her Mahoyo and Tsukihime selves. But I do now think that a lot of her major personality shifts will occur offscreen in between titles. I had originally thought that maybe this game would end with her being 30%-50% of the way there, but as of where we are right now, I'm expecting Aoko's personality at the end of this game to be a near-exact match to her personality at the start of it. Really, about the only thing that I expect that will be changed between beginning and end is her philosophy on killing. As I've stated previously, I expect that Aozaki Aoko will adopt Shizuki Soujuurou's creed that "killing people is wrong". We've already gotten a recent confirmation that Aoko has not once killed a person yet, despite several attempts attested by Alice.

Question #8: To what degree are we going to explore the Fifth Magic in this game? I believe we've seen it the one time at the amusement park, although that's speculation until otherwise confirmed. The question now is, how many times are we going to see it again before Game 1's up?; and how deeply are we gonna go into an explanation of what it is and how it works?

Question #9: Are there going to be any in-game decisions to be made? I know going back to this game's development Nasu had made it abundantly clear that this game would feature at least far fewer decisions to be made by the player than Tsukihime or Fate/stay night had. But those games' choices weren't just about docking you onto one of the game's five (Tsuki) or three (FSN) heroine paths. Most of the choices you made in those games were the difference between life and death for the protagonist. Mahoyo is clearly different from its predecessors. And I have gone into Mahoyo expecting to make absolutely zero choices. But as I near the game's conclusion, I find myself wondering: "Is that correct? Are there really no choices to be made in this game?" Avoiding looking it back up for now, but assuming that there really are no choices. I'm mostly just including this one as a "It's not over 'til the fat lady sings" kind of an open question. ='3 =p

General Impressions

Now for some general impressions.

The story: So far, it's been fine. I'm not as intrigued by it as I am by Tsukihime's or Fate/stay night's, but so far it's been a perfectly fine lil' novel to read through. I don't read novels particularly frequently, so for me it's also a refreshing experience in and of itself getting to read something that "feels like a book" , because it is a book!, rather than something that feels like a mobile game, a home console video game, a manga, or cinema or television. If the story has been slightly boring to me -- "boring"'s not really the right word -- I think its main two problems have been (1) my poor pacing and (2) Nasu's insistence on keeping all of the things secret until the very end. The latter is silly but is perhaps something he mistakenly picked up from Urobuchi Gen, whose Fate/Zero kept people alive and secrets secret a lot longer than Nasu's Fate/stay night did. (But Gen still had people die and the plot evolve, whereas Nasu seems terrified to move things forward in Mahoyo and keeps stalling for time with various cute but mundane side stories. ='>)

But as for my pacing, that's entirely on me. If I weren't the way that I am with these posts, and if I weren't self-obligated to write these posts in the first place, I'd probably have finished the books weeks ago. And a faster reader would have finished it in less than four days, easy. I'd heard it said before we started reading that this book has an estimated 35 hour clear time, and if that's accurate then I think a fairly typical VN reader would have probably devoured it with their available time outside of work, sleep, and self-care activities in just about four to five days. Give them the benefit of a Saturday and a Sunday where they don't even have to go into work and getting the book read in four days seems super doable for most people.

But I'm not most people, and I've made progress at a snail's pace. We started playing on December 24, 2022, so ... it's been 55 days since I started playing, and I'm still only two-thirds of the way through. That probably has just as much to do with my perception of the "delayed reveals" and "sluggish pace" as anything Nasu is doing ... ^^; Still, I'm enjoying it so far. =) Don't take anything I've said here to mean that I am bored with the book. Not really. It's immensely more entertaining to read than most of Fate/Grand Order's offerings, and I've read hundreds of hours of those stories, so... *shrug* =') It's honestly to the point where TsukiRe and Mahoyo have ruined me on FGO. ^_^; I went without reading any new FGO stories from November all the way until last weekend. Whenever I'm faced with the prospect of either getting to read FGO or else using FGO's Skip button to skip the story, jump straight to the combat, and then hopefully hop over to Mahoyo, consistently I've chosen the latter these past 55 days. It's just ... despite making such a choice, I still don't ultimately read much if at all on any given day. It's a me problem, not a Mahoyo problem. *shrug*

Characters: These characters are some of the realest Nasu has written to date. Only three of the characters so far feel larger than life, and that's Aoko, Alice, and Soujuurou, our two witches and one "mountain man". Fate/stay night, by contrast, by way of seven Masters, seven Servants, and various supporting characters had a cast of colorful personalities some twenty-plus strong. Tsukihime has the main six at a minimum. FGO, Fate/Zero, and other Fate-based properties lean more heavily towards larger casts of loud, vibrant characters. But Mahoyo is more modest. You get your Tsukiji Tobimarus, you get your Kinomi Housukes, you get your...

None of the characters so far is super beloved by me. I don't really have anyone in this game who has captured my heart as thoroughly as Type-Moon Okita Souji has, nor does anyone here stack up well against long-time favorites like Kohaku, Arcueid, Illyasviel, or Asagami Fujino. But even newer characters like Sherlock Holmes and Goredolf Musik are beloved by me and thousands of other fans, whereas Alice, Soujuurou, and Young Aoko so far are pleasant enough but not yet anywhere near to where I'd want to own a Nendoroid of one of them, collect lots of fanart of them, etc. They're fine. =) But they're just fine. So we'll see. We'll see what happens by the time we've reached the end.

Music: While not as impressive as TsukiRe's soundtrack, Mahoyo has quite a few gems. Definitely my favorite piece so far remains "Kettou/One-on-One", localized here as "Duel/One-on-One". This is the song that played when it was Aoko vs. the Aoko puppet inside the house of mirrors. It's the most exciting or second most exciting scene the game has had so far (the other one of course being the three-way showdown with Flat Snark, Aoko, and the crawling Aoko puppet), and both scene and track alike are perhaps the closest thing that Mahoyo has to offer to counter Fate/stay night's "Emiya" and the scenes in which it plays. Yuki's been a big fan of Erik Satie's Gymnopedie that has been repurposed in Mahoyo as "Afternoon Nap", the song reflecting the calm and peaceful days spent at the Kuonji mansion. As classical borrowings go, I've been a bigger fan of "Kenban wa Odoru" a.k.a. "Dance of the Piano Keys" personally, which is just Franz Liszt's Liebesträume No.3 by a custom name. ^^; My favorite two overall melodies in the game at this time likely remain the opening theme song and then the ending theme song that we've not yet heard, "Hoshi ga Matataku Konna Yoru ni", "The Stars Twinkle on a Night Like This". We have heard its music box version, discussed previously in the Chapter 5-2 post. Much love. =>

Visuals & Special Effects: I remain very surprised by just how good of a visual novel this product is on a technical level. I've said this before as well, but will say it again: the game passes for an anime. It's like "holding an anime in the palms of your hands." An anime whose pacing you direct, but an anime nonetheless. They do a remarkable job with a few simple XY-plane repositioning commands -- "animations", in their simplest form -- to make it look like people leap or run, to make it look like forks or chopsticks clash like weaponry in the fight for the best hotpot ingredients... Every character has dozens of unique facial animations, allowing for a wealth of pinpoint-precision expressivity at any given moment in time. Alternate fuzzy and sharp versions of each texture are used to emulate zoom focus. Alternate redrawings of the same scenery are used to emulate the progression of the Sun or the Moon in the sky. It's all relatively simple stuff (as compared with an animated motion picture) but it's used so well that the book manages to elevate itself beyond popsicle-stick puppetshow and into the realm of television anime. It's impressive.

I wish we had this level of visual storytelling in FGO. And I'm glad to see it did carry over into TsukiRe, although ... not quite as animated as Mahoyo has been. Mahoyo is very proud of its engine and only too happy to show it off. =')

Themes & Symbols: I had more to say on this early on. Today, I don't know that I have too much to report on as far as themes or symbols go in Mahoyo. ^_^; Like I've said before, I'm a "meat and potatoes" plot and characters kinda guy. I don't tend to notice theming unless it's either very personally relevant or else very hit-you-over-the-head-with-a-stick obvious. I will try to watch for anything in the coming chapters. Hopefully things become clearer on this front once we finally have a direct confrontation between the enemy magus and Aoko, which I assume we're going to get this title.

Just to throw thoughts out there for the sake of discussion, possible themes and symbols would include:

• purity, as it relates to Soujuurou in just about every facet of his character
  • purity of heart/soul/intent/will
  • purity of mind/brain/knowledge/memory
  • purity of muscle/body
  • the white neck bandages and the white dog collar, white being a color associated with purity
• Aoko's current hair color, which is not yet her iconic fiery red
• the color blue 🤷 (haven't really noticed any theming with this yet)
• the color red 🤷 (same)
• Alice being a master of nursery rhyme magic, and these idyllic days at the Kuonji mansion being "like a fairy tale" for young Aoko (she may not feel that way about it right now , but one day she will! ='3)
• the tea-vs-coffee symbolism we discussed briefly before, how Aoko was a coffee drinker like Touko but now she's a tea drinker like Alice

I dunno. Not the strongest list. ^^; I tried. 😔

[Doppleganger]

Originally Posted by Talon87

None of the characters so far is super beloved by me. I don't really have anyone in this game who has captured my heart as thoroughly as Type-Moon Okita Souji has, nor does anyone here stack up well against long-time favorites like Kohaku, Arcueid, Illyasviel, or Asagami Fujino. But even newer characters like Sherlock Holmes and Goredolf Musik are beloved by me and thousands of other fans, whereas Alice, Soujuurou, and Young Aoko so far are pleasant enough but not yet anywhere near to where I'd want to own a Nendoroid of one of them, collect lots of fanart of them, etc. They're fine. =) But they're just fine. So we'll see. We'll see what happens by the time we've reached the end.

I'd add that while the characters aren't boring, I do feel like we've seen them before in different forms throughout TM media. What opened up Fate Zero was Butcher's willingness to write non-Nasu style characters. I'm sure you've heard the story of Nasu's proto-Iskander who was a modest build bishie in the vein of Cu and Gilgamesh, with a far less outsized personality.

I also got this sensation reading the Jun Maeda stuff. Going from Air to Kanon to Little Busters to Angel Beats and Charlotte, there was a strong sense of deja vu and reincarnation with some characters.

[Talon87]

The Wonderful World of Ploys 1 & 2

Type-Moon's visual novels have each featured a learning corner where players can enjoy cute cutscenes and learn a little more about the lore of the Type-Moon universe. In Tsukihime, there was a classroom segment where Ciel took on the mantle of a teacher. Fate/stay night famously had the Tiger Dojo; there, players were treated to cute, humorous scenes with Fujimura Taiga and her "disciple" Illyasviel von Einzbern. And in the 2021 Tsukihime remake, Oshiete, Ciel-sensei! was re-imagined with a new accompanying partner -- Neco Arc!

Mahoyo has its own version of this feature -- The Wonderful World of Ploys! Players unlock access to this shortly after completing Chapter 8. Unlike its predecessors, The Wonderful World of Ploys does not list all of the bad endings you would have encountered while playing the game. And this is because, well... from what I can tell, Mahoyo doesn't have any bad endings for you to unlock. It may have a grand, overall "bad ending" that results in a game over, that I don't know yet, but on the whole Mahoyo is not the choose-your-own adventure book that Tsukihime and Fate/stay night were.

So what does The Wonderful World of Ploys feature? Read on to find out!

Spoiler: show

Nasu has decided to use this corner of the game to nominally do one thing while in practice doing another. These are:

• nominally, to flesh out esoteric aspects of the game
• practically, to entertain readers with some cute, amusing interactions between Robin and Alice

It's basically all of the cuteness and humor of the Tiger Dojo with little in the way of the education.

I say "little in the way of education" because -- as Alice herself points out several times -- little of what's presented here has not already been explained in the main story proper. It's just that Nasu realized (or must have been told) that his make-believe terminology was starting to get a bit overwhelming and that players could benefit from some setting straight all in the same, small little spot. So in the span of less than five minutes, he sets out to explain what a familiar is and what the Venn diagram looks like between your average familiar and a familiar like Robin; and then, in a second five minute span, he explains the Venn diagram between familiars and ploys (which, again, Robin is such a ploy) and then explains what is separately meant by "kickshaw" and what bringing the two words, "ploy" and "kickshaw", together signifies in this universe.

I won't lie -- I still don't have a great grasp on it ^_^; since it's a lot of technobabble (or the fantasy equivalent of that term). It's the sort of thing that makes sense while I'm reading it but logarithmically decays as I spend time away from it.

The main benefit so far of these two sections was seeing cute little moments with Robin and Alice. Whether it's Alice attacking Robin or Alice sliding down a preschool playground slide while dressed like a stereotypical Japanese preschooler, the segments solicit a lot of "awwww =>"s, laughs, and smiles.

Really not much else to say here! ^_^; Each segment was about five minutes long (with, admittedly, me kinda speed-reading through most of them, eager to move on to Chapter 9!), and the only real lore nugget we received is an answer to the question, "Why all the Alice in Wonderland theming?" Nasu had already touched on this in the main story, if I recall correctly, but basically Alice's mother was a big fan of Lewis Carroll's. As such, she developed ploys based on his works (these are the ploys that Alice has since been shown using in Mahoyo) and named her own daughter after the protagonist of Carroll's books.

[Talon87]

Chapter 09: SCARRED, SCAR RED.

Spoiler: show

The Orange Witch: IT'S TOUKO! ^_^ She's finally here! \o/

But, uh ... it's not all gumdrops and sunshine, is it? ^^; =( Where in Kara no Kyoukai Touko plays the part of a surrogate aunt who watches over several children and warms audiences' hearts, here she plays the part of an enigmatic rival hellbent on her own sister's destruction. I say "enigmatic" because, as we see by chapter's end, no one really knows at this stage what Touko's real motivations are. Soujuurou offers up hypotheses that will resonate with readers but which Aoko shoots down; and then Aoko offers up explanations steeped in Nasuverse lore that Soujuurou rejects. It's a simultaneously annoying and admirable bit of writing by Nasu. Annoying because it's rather cowardly and non-commital -- doing it this way allows Nasu to simultaneously explain to a frustrated audience just what the hell is, or might be, going on while at the same time reserving the right to undo it all at a future date should he decide on a better explanation later. Admirable because it just works so very well in-universe, with Soujuurou comfortably concluding that mages just don't see the world the way that normal people do and that Aoko and Alice are hopelessly blind to what's obvious to anyone else looking in; and with Aoko concluding similarly that it is hopeless to get a non-mage like Soujuurou to understand the motivations of a mage like Touko.

I will disclaim here, this post is FILLED with Aozaki Touko information pulled from Kara no Kyoukai! If you haven't seen the Kara no Kyoukai movies and you don't want to possibly be spoiled on Touko details that Mahoyo might reveal later on, then I would suggest revisiting this post after you complete the game. Otherwise, feel free to press on.

I will also disclaim here, this post is MASSIVE! You might want to take your time with it. Originally I planned to possibly break it up by subchapters, but there were two problems with that. First, my theming in this thread has been to always stick with Nasu's official names for chapters and subchapters, and well... there's no way around spoiling Touko's arrival with a subchapter title like "The Elder Sister Returns"! ^^; Second, as I started writing this post up, I found myself frustrated by having to discuss things in presentation order, not being allowed to take things more topically and make references upstream to things revealed further downstream. I ended up following my heart and have no regrets, but apologize to those of you who are intimidated by long, sprawly tl;drs in need of editing. ^^; Hopefully you'll stick with me and find plenty that inspires conversation. 😔

Red & Orange: The chapter opens with a title card difference between the original and the re-release. Or perhaps it's between the Japanese script and the English one, I'm not entirely sure. What I do know is, while all versions title Chapter 09 "SCARRED, SCAR RED.", once you actually begin the chapter and it stylishly presents you with its name again in-chapter, there is a difference:

• 2022 English: 9 ​ SCARRED, SCAR RED.
• 2012 Japanese: 9 ​ みかん色の魔法使い

The Japanese title reads Mikan-iro no Mahoutsukai or "The Mandarin[color] Witch". This is a direct reference to Aozaki Touko. The English title likewise is a reference to Touko (source: Type-Moon Wiki):

She hates being called "Scarred Red" (傷んだ赤, Itanda Aka, "Disgraced Scarlet" in the English localization), as it reminds her that although she wanted the colored title of Blue similar to her family name, she instead ended up with the colored title of Red. The nickname implies that her given name of "orange" is merely a tainted color of her title of red, a pure primary color. She made a personal rule that whomever calls her that nickname would end up with a death sentence.

In Type-Moon lore, Touko is associated both with the colors Red and Orange. Red is Touko's title. Orange is in Touko's name -- the tou in Touko, 橙, represents not the mandarin nor the sweet orange but the bitter orange. Thus, you will alternately find people who may refer to her (positively or negatively) by either of these two color terms.

This comes up rather memorably in the fifth Kara no Kyoukai movie where Cornelius Alba, unable to suppress his bitter jealousy and resentment toward Touko any longer, refers to her by this forbidden nickname. (Technically he calls her a 傷んだ赤色とまで言われた女狐 Itanda Sekisho to made megitsune "a vixen who was even called Scarred Red", same idea.) This in turn drives Touko to murder him as she will not allow anyone to cross that line.

The setup: While it's a narrative arrangement at least as old as Snow White & the Seven Dwarfs (when the wicked queen, disguised as an old hag, descends on the dwarves' cottage while the dwarves are away mining and Snow White's housesitting all alone), I absolutely love what Nasu did here with Touko's arrival at the Kuonji mansion:

• how Touko descends on the house when Aoko is away, Alice is away, and Soujuurou is not away. How this very much resembles the thing in fairy tales, or just about any cautionary tale to small children, really, about how children are not to answer the door when they are home alone, i.e. when Mommy and Daddy are both away, and someone presents at the front door asking to see them, to be let inside, etc.
• how the moment the girls let their guard down re: Soujuurou's safety, the witch strikes
• how Touko presents completely charmingly and innocently
• how, unrelated to defense of the house, the girls originally didn't want to leave Soujuurou home alone to housesit, but they ended up doing it out of love and/or respect for him -- they didn't want the tickets that he had purchased with his hard working money to go to waste, they didn't want to snub his kindness, and (at least on Alice's part) they wanted to trust Soujuurou with house-sitting duty
• how the one time, the first time, Alice trusts Soujuurou with house-sitting duty, he proverbially "burns the place down" by letting a powerful witch into her workshop and having free reign of the entire estate
• how Alice and Aoko are physically far away -- not even in Misaki City, but neighboring Arisaka City -- and so even by the time that they realize that Soujuurou and the mansion are in danger it is impossible for them to get back quickly enough to rescue him, he's all on his own
• Touko's disguise, and the moment the disguise is shed

It's all so good, and it's all used so well here. Original? No. Effective? Yes. Exciting? Oh yeah! This was my first real page turner since all the way back in Chapter 5. I was on the edge of my seat the entire time from when Touko arrived to when she left.

The aquarium: For me, the big takeaway here is the scene near the end when Alice is watching the sunfish in the big enclosure. This is another example of surprisingly simple but effective writing out of Mr. Nasu, as there are two levels to the sunfish symbolism here. The first, superficial level is the level that Alice perceives in-universe -- and that's that the sunfish represents Soujuurou. The second, deeper level is what the audience is invited to consider alongside the first interpretation -- and that's that perhaps the sunfish isn't Soujuurou, but rather Alice herself (and mages in general).

First, we need to establish this:

Aoko: I'm proud of you, though, leaving him alone in the house. You're not worried he'll go snooping in the west wing, are you?
Alice: He... can't possibly be that foolish. Besides...
Aoko: It'd save us the trouble if he did?
Alice: ...It's not that. I just don't think he's the type to break his word.

Here, Alice expresses trust in Soujuurou. She has a hard time letting down her barriers. She has a hard time letting anyone get close to her. But she wants to so badly let Soujuurou get closer. =< She is taking what for her is a big, scary risk.

Then, we arrive at the main attraction. Not a dolphin. Not a shark. Not a sea turtle, nor even a land tortoise that Alice had so badly wanted to find. No, what we arrive at is ...

Aoko: Is it a rare fish? ...This looks like the tank they use for all the fish that don't fit anywhere else.

Alice gave a noncommital response.
Just ahead of her gaze was a single shadow.

Aoko: Wow, an ocean sunfish.

Alice remained motionless, unresponsive to Aoko's sarcasm.
She stood in silence, watching the poor little fish, drifting listlessly in the tank where they put the fish that did not fit anywhere else, here at the end of the hall.
To put it lightly, sunfish were not especially pleasant to look at.
When looking at one, it begged the question of what direction evolution wanted to take with it.
It looked like it swam using rudder-like fins on its top and bottom, but lacked the grace of other fish.
To Aoko, its eyes, body, and strange movements made it an awkward creature.
But...

Aoko: Hey, Alice, let's check out the whale shark exhibit over there. It sounds really exciting, don't you think?

Alice, unmoved, fixated on the sunfish.
It clumsily drifted around its tank, occasionally bumping into the glass as it turned.

Alice: Aoko, this little one can't swim well.

Alice extended her finger towards the glass, then retracted it feeling childish.

Aoko: Well, whatever. I suppose sunfish have their own charm.

It did not seem like Alice was going to budge.
Resigning herself, Aoko stayed with Alice while she stared at the cushion-shaped fish.
[...]
Though Aoko seemed taken in by the biological details of the fish, Alice couldn't have cared less.
She was lost in the ebb and flow of emotions between wonder and woe with every clumsy bump of the fish into the glass.
When out of nowhere, she softly spoke...

Alice: About before...
Aoko: Before? When?
Alice: About him. About leaving the house in his care.

Alice proceeds to explain that she has not decided to trust in Soujuurou; rather, she trusts Aoko, and Aoko thinks it's fine letting Soujuurou housesit, so Alice is willing to go with that. She says this... but:

It seemed Alice was challenging her own feelings.

I'll say.

Alice: ...Such a kind face, but so clearly scarred.

It's pretty clear that for Alice, the clumsiness and stupidity of the derpy sunfish reminds her of Soujuurou. However, Alice herself is the one here clumsily bumping her head into aquarium glass while struggling to swim, metaphorically speaking. Societal obligations ... family obligations ... yearnings of the heart ... Alice is trying to navigate the minefield that is being the heiress to the Kuonji family, being a young witch, and being a girl in love. Cloistered her entire life, she is socially maladjusted. Soujuurou makes her feel things she's not felt before and has difficulty understanding or accepting. She can rationalize to herself why their relationship would never work a million different ways -- "He's too stupid", "He's a muggle," "He loves Aoko," "Aoko loves him" -- but at the end of the day none of her rationalizations matter. She loves him. She's fallen in love with him, and she doesn't know what to do.

A clumsy sunfish, trapped in a glass cage.

Tea: This was such a good scene. It's one of those classic scenes where the soon-to-be victim has absolutely no idea what's happening, but the audience knows. Such tension! Watching Touko converse with Soujuurou is like watching a spider encircling its already-ensnared prey. Nasu's writing and Koyama's illustrations are equally great and effective.

Symbolism and theming is out in full force here! I got my wish. :'3 We have a lovely bit of symbolism here with ... the tea cup. Aoko's favorite teacup. First, a few attributes about the teacup:

• the teacup is blue
  • Aoko's favorite color
  • Aoko's identity color
  • Touko's coveted color
• the teacup is, if not one of a kind, at the very least expensive, made by a master craftsman, and not easily replaced
  • much like how there's no replacing Soujuurou
  • making it all the more valuable of a target to Touko to steal
• the teacup is made of porcelain
  • fragile, easily broken
  • all too easy for Touko to say, "If I can't have it, then nobody can" and smash it if she wishes to

The teacup is clearly symbolic here of:

1. the Aozaki sisters' relationship. Aoko has what Touko wants but is denied. Whenever this happens, Touko takes it away by force. Aoko tells us stories about this happening in their childhood -- she sounds exhaustedly used to it -- stories of Aoko taking a liking to something, anything, and then Touko stealing it or destroying it.
2. Touko's obsession. Almost identical to the above bullet point but ever so slightly different. The teacup, while expensive, is not necessarily "the best teacup in the history of the world". It's an above-average teacup and Aoko's personal favorite. There are many other teacups like it. ...But none of them are Aoko's teacup. This is symbolic of what Aoko later explains to Soujuurou regarding the two sisters' magical prowess: Aoko is not especially magically gifted, while Touko is a prodigy. Magic, Aoko explains, is special because it can make the impossible possible, but it has a very narrow scope. Magecraft, she explains, is as broad as can be. Touko could become a legendary magus in literally anything (b/c prodigy) ... but she can never have the Fifth Magic. And that drives her crazy. It was her birthright. And Aoko stole it from her. This is how the bitter, jealous, perhaps slightly unhinged Touko sees it. ^^; =(
3. Soujuurou. Soujuurou is the teacup. He's "Aoko's possession"; and, like the teacup, he is fragile, "easily destroyed".

It isn't just the teacup though. Touko's arrival comes in the same week as Christmas -- the first official week of the season of winter. Nasu specifically notes that "the sun sets early in the winter", an otherwise innocuous bit of padding, one might say, but for the fact that it is the opening line to the scene in which Touko arrives. The sun represents warmth, illumination, safety. The night represents death, darkness, danger. Like a Grim Reaper, Touko arrives at the twilight hour.

When Touko arrives, Soujuurou is sipping on some tea of his own. As the scene will later establish, tea takes on a symbolism here attached to Aoko -- her teacup, her relationship with Soujuurou -- so his taking in the warmth of the tea from within the warm shelter of the Kuonji estate serves to establish his symbolic safety and comfort when Aoko and Alice are with him.

When Soujuurou returns with their tea, Touko requests him to please sit, adding, "I don't like being looked down on." This is clearly as much figurative as it is literal -- where here she instructs Soujuurou not to literally look down on her, generally Aozaki Touko does not suffer others figuratively looking down on her.

There's lots of little moments like these we can deconstruct all day for our high school literature teachers if we like. Suffice it to say, even I noticed them. =')

The big reveal: If there's one thing I would have changed about this chapter, it's when and how Nasu confirmed that the enemy magus is Aozaki Touko. The way he did it was rather awkward imo.

1. First, he has Alice and Aoko misunderstanding who has sent these 30+ automatons after them. The narrator even points this out for the reader, identifying that Alice and Aoko are so used to classical puppetry theory which holds that the older the puppet parts, the better; and thus, the higher-quality the puppet, the less the supply; and thus, only a supremely wealthy magus could afford to send many automatons out against the girls like this with such reckless abandon.
2. Then, he has the girls have an epiphany, and they finally figure it out.
3. Next, we cut back to the mansion, where we find Touko with Soujuurou. Touko still hasn't revealed the truth to Soujuurou.
4. Finally, Touko reveals the truth to Soujuurou.

This is awkward to me for two reasons. First, there's little reason to have the girls display ignorance (and for the narrator to gush us a history lesson) only to correct that ignorance mere seconds later. It's terribly anti-climactic, and makes the earlier ignorance feel like a complete waste of time. Second, the audience already knows who Touko is and is alredy on tenterhooks suspecting that she might be the enemy magus. Her scene with Soujuurou is consequently incredibly tense. (Even I found it inherently tense, and I already knew she was the culprit! ) Revealing her identity via the girls' epiphany at the train station is just ... blah. The better way to do it, by far, is to have Touko be the one to reveal herself to Soujuurou (or to have Soujuurou be the one to figure it out, either/or). Thus, I would propose a very simple order change to fix this scene:

1. First, either scrap Alice and Aoko's misunderstanding scene (just don't even have it take place) or else keep it and keep it all the way home. Next.
2. Cut back to the mansion, where we find Touko with Soujuurou. Touko still hasn't revealed the truth to Soujuurou.
3. Cut back to the girls, still trying to piece together who their assailant is, and identifying things which the audience -- who has both the train station cards and the mansion cards in hand -- gets to freak out about.
4. Finally, cut back to the mansion, and have Touko reveal the truth to Soujuurou (or Soujuurou figure it out, either/or). As for the girls, they can either figure it out later or they can have the truth explained to them by Soujuurou when they get home.

It's not a huge deal. I just ... think the current placement of the reveal is super anti-climactic in an otherwise satisfyingly climactic scene. Touko deserves better! =<

The Wandersnatch: I don't have too much to say here other than that I really enjoyed Nasu's analogy with the grenade. Quoting it:

Aoko: You were carrying that thing around this whole time?

Aoko spoke sideways to Alice, making no attempt to hide her disgust.
A beast of the fog.
One of her Great Three Ploys Kickshaw, the Meinsters' Rose Hound: Wandersnatch.
It was a name carrying immense violence and devastation.
Aoko's words stung, since Alice was the one harboring its true form.
The Great Three Ploys wielded terrifyingly powerful curses.
It was one thing to carry it around for self-defense, but keeping it a secret from her companion did not amuse Aoko in the slightest.
It was like going out to eat with a grenade in your pocket.

This is a great simile -- simple and effective. It immediately tells me all I need to know to understand Aoko's disgust.

Nasuverse Puppetry Theory: So since we're keeping the scene anyway, and it's clear the author intended it as a way to explore Touko's capabilities, let's talk. =') I did enjoy this explanation of how:

• normally, the newer the doll, the less good it is
• but Touko's craftsmanship is so good, her 20th century dolls pass for 17th century relics or older
• and her magecraft is so prodigious, she is able to mass produce these high-craftsmanship dolls in much less time than it would take other magi

Fans of Kara no Kyoukai will already know this, but basically -- where other magi may have to source their doll parts, Touko makes hers from scratch. And, at least by the time of Kara no Kyoukai (but it's heavily implied there that she was already this good in childhood, i.e. before the events of Mahoyo take place!), Touko is so good at her craft that her "doll parts" are indistinguishable from bonafide human body parts. An Aozaki Touko arm ... may as well be an actual human arm. An Aozaki Touko eye ... may as well be an actual human eye. So on and so forth. Obviously it's a little silly to get too excited over all of this in Mahoyo since Mahoyo's job is to be an origin story which tells the tale "before they were the legends you know them as today". But still, though. ='> Can't help but to get a little excited over canonical declarations of Touko's talent.

On the flipside, however, I think it's important to remember that, even for Touko, throwing as many as thirty automatons at Aoko all at once is a bit much. The lady may be talented, but I don't know that she can make 30 automatons overnight like it were nothing. I'm not exactly sure what her production rate is, but I get the general impression from this train station scene that Touko is mad, obsessed, crazed -- that she is doing the proverbial "using a nuclear bomb to exterminate a mouse."

The Aftermath: I thought the before and after shots of the train station platform were very striking. Obviously on a technicality alone we have blood substituted out for oil. Change the color from black to red and you'd have a pretty classic gruesome bloodbath.

Glasses on, glasses off: I definitely picked up on the duality of Aozaki Touko while watching Kara no Kyoukai. How she has her "retired yakuza" side to her and then how she has her "active yakuza" side to her. But I don't think I picked up on it being something tied to her conscious decision to remove her eyeglasses. Like, subconsciously for sure and maybe even consciously also, of course you notice that she's got her glasses on when she's an approachable auntie and that vice versa when she's a violent delinquent her glasses are nowhere to be seen. But I don't think it was until this game that I'd ever realized that this is apparently a thing Touko does, that she switches between personalities depending on whether her glasses are on or off -- and that she is consciously aware of this and makes conscious decisions to enter into or exit out of a given personality.

The similarities with Ryougi Shiki, thus, are kinda crazy. The Mystic Eyes ... the multiple personalities ... I always thought that Touko was about as similar to Shiki as were Mikiya or Azaka. I didn't realize that Auntie had so much in common with her surrogate niece.

Aoko informs us later that Touko's eyesight "has always been perfect. She's a monster who was even born with Mystic Eyes." Touko's having perfect vision makes sense seeing as Touko has full control over the quality of the eyeballs she fashions for herself. ^_^; Or so I would have thought, at least. Because Aoko then goes on to add that "in trying to live up to our grandfather's expectations, she probably overdid it and her eyes suffered as a result." Meaning there's some level of permanent damage to Touko's eyes? How can that be? What sort of damage is she doing such that it transfers between bodies?

Given that Touko's default state is (or once was) perfect vision, it seems logical that the "bad bitch", "active yakuza" personality of Aozaki Touko's with the glasses taken off is her default personality.

Mystic Eyes: Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiii did not remember this detail from the Kara no Kyoukai movies, at all. o_o Apparently Touko has Mystic Eyes. I look forward to the game (hopefully! ^^; ) revealing what they do. Otherwise it'll be off to the fan wiki for me once the game is over. The fact that Touko periodically reproduces her body means ...that Touko is capable of producing Mystic Eyes from scratch by hand? O.o At least her own? That alone seems like the sort of thing the Association would want to designate her for sealing over, let alone her ability to reproduce a human body from scratch indistinguishable from one born from the womb and raised in the world. Anyway, she uses her eye powers on Soujuurou -- they seem to have some hypnotic properties? Some light amnesia, some suggestion ... Speaking of amnesia, though ... part of me now wonders, are we gonna see Touko's Mystic Eyes ultimately used to achieve the girls' objective of erasing Soujuurou's memories? I guess that will depend on what exactly her Mystic Eyes do and just how powerful and permanent of an amnesia she can conjure up.

Alice's Fury: When Alice discovers that Soujuurou let a stranger into the house -- and not just any stranger, the enemy magus! -- all of that trust she had wanted to place in Soujuurou, all of that courage she had mustered, is gone -- or at least, jeopardized. After the mighty SLAP! that she gives him, reminiscent of the time that an adult Aozaki Aoko almost knocked Tohno Shiki's head off , Soujuurou is shown as seriously repentant and Alice is shown as full of regret, hurt, and sorrow. As Nasu writes, "Both Soujuurou and Alice stood there, chained to the spot by their own regret." It's not a happy moment for anybody. =<

But she is right to be upset. Letting an enemy magus into Alice's workshop is about the dumbest, most dangerous thing Soujuurou could have done to her. We're lucky that seemingly Touko didn't stick around to investigate. ...But the jury is out on that for now, as it's entirely possible that Soujuurou's recollection of Touko's departure is unreliable and, for all we know, she did a clean sweep of the estate before the girls managed to return home.

Magic vs. Magecraft, revisited: We get a second explanation about the difference between majutsu "magecraft" and mahou "magic" or "True Magic". In short, Magic can make the impossible possible but is narrow in scope, while magecraft is broad in scope but cannot make the impossible possible. These definitions kinda fall apart imo if you start to grammar nazi them or "I know thermodynamics better than Type-Moon!" them, but the basic gist of it (as I understand it) is something like this:

• if something can be done under certain circumstances, then magecraft can make it possible to do the same task under some other circumstances. For example, a sword can be greased and the grease can be set on fire such that the sword is now a fiery sword; thus, magecraft could potentially make it to where you can set a sword on fire with a snap of your fingers. The snap of your fingers part is why it's magic (in the colloquial sense; magecraft here in the T-M sense), but the fact that there are other ways to set a sword on fire is why it's magecraft and not (T-M) magic.
• if there are no circumstances under which something can be done -- it doesn't matter the temperature, it doesn't matter the time, there's nothing you can do to the test conditions to make it to where this outcome will happen -- then getting that to happen will require True Magic. There are no circumstances under which you can go back in time, so going back in time would require True Magic.

The more important part of this scene is the new information we gain regarding the Aozaki family magic and Aoko's history with her sister. We discover a couple of interesting surprises:

1. an Aozaki ancestor already discovered the Fifth Magic. It wasn't Aoko. O_o #huh
2. Magic -- True Magic -- can be and is passed down through the generations, provided you have eligible recipients to inherit it. Huh. O_o
3. Aoko's grandfather was the latest recipient ...
4. ...until the winter when Aoko was 15, at which point he designated Aoko his heir, snubbing Touko
5. Aoko is "four years younger" than Touko
6. Touko had been groomed for the position from birth. Inheriting the Fifth Magic was, in a literal sense, "her birthright". She was understandably hurt and outraged.
7. "Successors are supposed to be chosen based on their affinity for magecraft... and in that sense, my sister was definitely a prodigy. But, her talent just wasn't fit for an heir, for whatever reason." Hm.
8. "Instead, I turned out to be more suited to succeed it."
9. Touko fought with her grandfather, smashed her glasses, and left home three and a half years ago, says Aoko.
   • and since the sisters are four years apart, this means that Aoko today is roughly the same age that Touko was when Touko left home
10. Aoko admits to not being a particularly talented magus. She also states, "I can't wield Magic, nor do I want to. I'm just the successor to the Aozaki family." This begs the question of Aoko's awareness of what took place at the amusement park, and whether or not or to what extent what we saw really was the Fifth Magic.
11. Aoko says that until she was designated the heir to the family Magic she was hardly trained in magic at all -- she explains that a middle class family can only afford to train one heir, and it's usually the eldest child or else the child with the greatest magical talent. And Touko was both of these. So Touko was the family heir all the way up until Aoko's 15th year, after which point the family veered onto the Aoko path, had to crash course their second daughter in magecraft, and the already-educated Touko was basically a ronin now ^^; *shrug*

I may have misunderstood some of these details, but this seems to be the general gist of things from Aoko's conversation with Soujuurou. If anyone reading this knows better and I've said something wrong, please, correct me. I'm just as shocked as anyone to read what I think I just read -- I always thought that Aoko was herself the one who reached the Root (hence why her hair will turn red in the future), and I always thought that True Magic was not teachable or heritable.

Understanding Aozaki Touko: Earlier I mentioned that Soujuurou and Aoko have fundamentally different opinions on what motivates Touko. Let's look a bit more closely at some of these conversations.

Aoko: You know, now that I think of it, was Touko trying to give [Grandfather] a message? Why did she throw her glasses at [him], when she could have smoked him with a single Finn Shot? […]"

Soujuurou shook his head, disappointed at Aoko's misjudgment of the situation.

Soujuurou: This isn't about any grudge. Those glasses ... they were important to her. It was a symbol of all of her efforts that everyone could see. To break them like that ... it must have been painful. Painful enough for her to feel like she had to break them.

As Soujuurou spoke, neither Aoko nor Alice noticed the grief he was fighting to hold in. Or more accurately, they could not understand his point of view. After all, in a world where mages are raised to fight other mages, empathy was in short supply.

Here we have our first fundamental difference of opinion. Aoko is befuddled by Touko's smashing of her glasses, while Soujuurou understands perfectly. To Soujuurou, the girls don't get it because they are too magey. To the girls, Soujuurou is the one who doesn't get it because he doesn't think like a mage enough.

The scene continues:

Alice: I wonder why she chose to come back now. Like Aoko said, Touko could have taken Misaki City any time she wanted to.
Aoko: That's right. If she wanted this land that badly, she should have come back three years ago, killed me, and reclaimed her rights. ...Maybe she had a change of heart after seeing the world, I dunno.

The girls make a logical point. From a purely strategic perspective, Touko's decision to wait until now was unnecessary at best, foolish at worst. Waiting has allowed Aoko a chance to catch up to Touko, however meagerly, and defend herself against anything Touko might throw at her.

But Soujuurou disagrees:

Soujuurou: You really don't get it, do you, Aozaki?

Soujuurou shook with a faint anger. His voice changed from the boy they thought they knew.

Aoko: Oh, and you do?
Soujuurou: Yes, like anyone would. Touko was waiting for you to become a fully-fledged mage so that you would lose the same thing that was stolen from her. That's how deep her hurt and hatred goes.

"The Hisoka". Just like Hisoka in Hunter x Hunter deliberately sparing Gon's life, even involving himself purposely here or there to cultivate the boy's growth, all so that one day Gon will prove an opponent worthy of Hisoka, because for Hisoka the victory is meaningless if it's against an ant or a turtle, he wants to fight for his life and only just barely win ... Soujuurou argues that we have here a similar outcome for Touko. Yes, Touko could have invaded Misaki City three years ago, taken it over, and eliminated both Aoko and Alice ... but she didn't want to. Because that would be too easy. Snuffing out the baby who robbed her of her birthright would not restore Touko's dignity, would not prove Touko's point to anybody. Anybody can suffocate a baby. No, what Touko wanted ... was to eliminate Aoko when she was just as old as Touko was when the decision was made to snatch the Aozaki birthright away from her. To eliminate not Aoko the Child but Aoko the Adult. To prove to her grandfather, "You chose wrong." To prove to the world ... to prove to herself ... "I am the better Aozaki."

How then do the girls react to this?

Like this. Like they cannot believe the level of ignorance Soujuurou is displaying. Aoko sighs. Alice composes herself.

Soujuurou gazed at them, wondering why they could not see what he could. Only, he was the one that did not understand. The two girls, and above all Aozaki Touko, deny themselves the type of relationships that other normal people are allowed to experience. Touko's actions were not fueled by hatred. While there certainly was hatred behind them, the real reason was and always has been Touko's pursuit of True Magic. She was an ambitious and talented mage; her hatred was only her veneer. Thinking of her in any other way would be an insult to the elder sister who devoted her life to the study of magecraft.

So, Word of God says we're wrong, Soujuurou's wrong, this isn't about hate or revenge, this is strictly about pursuing True Magic.

Uhhh... Unreliable narrator, much? ^^; 'Cause I dunno, man ... Soujuurou absolutely seems like the lens of truth in this situation, uninhibited by the biases that mages like Aoko and Alice brought up in the magi world would have. Their refusal to see Touko as anything other than a mage feels wrong, especially for someone as enigmatic and special as Aozaki Touko. So what exactly do the girls say?

All of this Aoko wanted to tell Soujuurou, but instead stopped herself. Even if she had, Soujuurou was not a mage and could never understand, and besides, arguing with him any further would not have brought her any joy. She could not have put it into words even if she had tried. And so...

Aoko: Hmmm... You sure are taking her side a lot, Soujuurou. Could it be... love at first sight?

In her own cowardly way, Aoko dodged the subject. She smirked childishly.

Soujuurou: I get how she feels, a little. I pity her.

Soujuurou did not take the bait. Aoko was frustrated at his reply.

Aoko: And why, might I ask?

An icy glare replaced her smile.

He did not falter, only plainly stating,

Soujuurou: Because she has to fight her only sister. That's sad, isn't it?

This was the source of his frustration.

Aoko: ...It's sad all right.

Aoko's eyes narrowed unconsciously, as if hiding from a painful truth. "This guy is a poison," she thought to herself. A poison with no antidote; with his words, he was unwittingly bringing her weakness to light.

Aoko: My sister and I... We don't think of it in that way, though. To us, this was always the way it would turn out.

Soujuurou looked down and frowned in defeat. "And that's sad too," he muttered.

In the end, Soujuurou concludes that Aoko is blind, incapable of seeing things as they truly are; likewise, Aoko and Alice conclude that Soujuurou is incapable of understanding the way a magus thinks, acts, and operates.

Well played, Nasu. Well played.

Destroying what's most precious to Aoko: The chapter ends with a discussion on Soujuurou's presence on Touko's radar. Aoko seems to think that Soujuurou doesn't register at all: "After meeting you, she must have realized that you have nothing to do with us, so I doubt we need to worry about her going after you." Soujuurou is not so sure. Aoko assures him, Touko never pays attention to things that are of no use to her. Comforted by this, Soujuurou tells Aoko, "Oh, right. Speaking of things she has no use for, Touko took your teacup. The nice Sèvres one." Aoko goes into angry shock. Her favorite teacup, stolen! Then she calms down and sighs. "...Nothing to do now, I guess. She always did have a habit of stealing my things."

Soujuurou & the audience: Wut.

Aoko: So many of my crayons and dolls, she took as she pleased... And broke them, too.

Soujuurou & the audience: ...

Or, as Nasu literally writes:

Soujuurou felt his heart jump into his mouth. The ominous foreshadowing was not lost on him.

Soujuurou: Why... do you think that was?
Aoko: Because she made a hobby out of taking my property and smashing it to pieces, obviously! Once she had her eye on something, I had to kiss it goodbye.
Soujuurou: ...

Listening to Aoko, Soujuurou recalled his conversation with Touko. He hoped he was imagining it, but he vaguely recalled her declaring Shizuki Soujuurou as someone's property...

Soujuurou: That... is troubling.

Ganbare, Soujuurou! You got this!

[Doppleganger]

Dude, Alice fell faster than the World Trade Center. She really does feel like Rem 2.0, she rebounded from hate to dokidoki in no time at all.

Originally Posted by Talon87

This is my teacup. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

My teacup is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.

My teacup, without me, is useless. Without my teacup, I am useless. I must sip my teacup true. I must drink more than my enemy who is trying to outdrink me. I must caffienate her before she caffienates me. I will…

My teacup and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we down, the noise of our kettle, nor the steam we make. We know that it is the shots that count. We will drink…

Originally Posted by Talon87

Thus, I would propose a very simple order change to fix this scene:

1. First, either scrap Alice and Aoko's misunderstanding scene (just don't even have it take place) or else keep it and keep it all the way home. Next.
2. Cut back to the mansion, where we find Touko with Soujuurou. Touko still hasn't revealed the truth to Soujuurou.
3. Cut back to the girls, still trying to piece together who their assailant is, and identifying things which the audience -- who has both the train station cards and the mansion cards in hand -- gets to freak out about.
4. Finally, cut back to the mansion, and have Touko reveal the truth to Soujuurou (or Soujuurou figure it out, either/or). As for the girls, they can either figure it out later or they can have the truth explained to them by Soujuurou when they get home.

It's not a huge deal. I just ... think the current placement of the reveal is super anti-climactic in an otherwise satisfyingly climactic scene. Touko deserves better! =<

The editing on that scene comes across like it was intended for anime. The POV switches sound quite awkward for for something with novel pacing and just bringing up the puppets coincidentally while Soujuurou is about to be raped is too coincidental.

Having Alice and Aoko intermittently discuss the enemy magius would have eased the transition.

Originally Posted by Talon87

Alice's Fury: When Alice discovers that Soujuurou let a stranger into the house -- and not just any stranger, the enemy magus! -- all of that trust she had wanted to place in Soujuurou, all of that courage she had mustered, is gone -- or at least, jeopardized. After the mighty SLAP! that she gives him, reminiscent of the time that an adult Aozaki Aoko almost knocked Tohno Shiki's head off , Soujuurou is shown as seriously repentant and Alice is shown as full of regret, hurt, and sorrow. As Nasu writes, "Both Soujuurou and Alice stood there, chained to the spot by their own regret." It's not a happy moment for anybody. =<

But she is right to be upset. Letting an enemy magus into Alice's workshop is about the dumbest, most dangerous thing Soujuurou could have done to her. We're lucky that seemingly Touko didn't stick around to investigate. ...But the jury is out on that for now, as it's entirely possible that Soujuurou's recollection of Touko's departure is unreliable and, for all we know, she did a clean sweep of the estate before the girls managed to return home.

Spoiler: show

Is it just me, or does the entire thing read like rape? Touko is out to ruin and humiliate Aoko, walks into her dwelling, flashes hypnotic "lightbulbs" at Aoko's love interest, there's blurry memories with the morning after and the predator leaves without any property damage, just a souvenier.

Like I could easily imagine an H scene in this section if this were an eroge from 2006.



Look at that seductive pose, that seducive face, smoking the cigarette indoors! You think with her rivalry with Aoko, she's going to leave Soujuurou with blue balls?

Originally Posted by Talon87

I may have misunderstood some of these details, but this seems to be the general gist of things from Aoko's conversation with Soujuurou. If anyone reading this knows better and I've said something wrong, please, correct me. I'm just as shocked as anyone to read what I think I just read -- I always thought that Aoko was herself the one who reached the Root (hence why her hair will turn red in the future), and I always thought that True Magic was not teachable or heritable.

Why wouldn't it? Both Rin and Sasaki Kojirou were able to use the Second Magic, through presumably different routes from Zelretch.

Originally Posted by Talon87

So, Word of God says we're wrong, Soujuurou's wrong, this isn't about hate or revenge, this is strictly about pursuing True Magic.

Uhhh... Unreliable narrator, much? ^^; 'Cause I dunno, man ... Soujuurou absolutely seems like the lens of truth in this situation, uninhibited by the biases that mages like Aoko and Alice brought up in the magi world would have. Their refusal to see Touko as anything other than a mage feels wrong, especially for someone as enigmatic and special as Aozaki Touko. So what exactly do the girls say?

All of this Aoko wanted to tell Soujuurou, but instead stopped herself. Even if she had, Soujuurou was not a mage and could never understand, and besides, arguing with him any further would not have brought her any joy. She could not have put it into words even if she had tried. And so...

This has to be a curveball at the reader. Admittedly, Soujuurou does not have the credentials to make reads of human behaviour, seeing as he's kind of autistic himself. But if Touko is so transparent about her pettiness even the robot can pick up on it, that should emphasize how out of touch the girls are.

Originally Posted by Talon87

Listening to Aoko, Soujuurou recalled his conversation with Touko. He hoped he was imagining it, but he vaguely recalled her declaring Shizuki Soujuurou as someone's property...

Soujuurou: That... is troubling.

Ganbare, Soujuurou! You got this!

The WoG really messes up this scene, it's a have cake situation. Soujuurou can't be right here but wrong earlier, and Toukou considering Soujuurou Aoko's man seems like a stretch considering it's Alice's house. He could be Alice's boyfriend for all she knows.

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

Is it just me, or does the entire thing read like rape?

Spoiler: show

Touko is out to ruin and humiliate Aoko, walks into her dwelling, flashes hypnotic "lightbulbs" at Aoko's love interest, there's blurry memories with the morning after and the predator leaves without any property damage, just a souvenier.

It definitely has the same symbolic weight, which (when you point it out like that) does make it rather sad then that the aftermath focus is a lot of victim blaming. ...But to be fair:

Spoiler: show

Alice is as much the potential victim here as was Soujuurou the actual victim. I guess the analogy might be ... if you were a guard posted to a military compound, and you let the Russian femme fatale in, and then the Russian femme fatale drugged you and raped you, and the next thing you know she's gone and your C.O. has returned from whatever it was that he was doing. There should be some compassion for the individual who was just raped, yes, but at the same time a court martial is likely appropriate too because the individual displayed gross negligence allowing an outsider inside the base when he knows that no one is allowed in except for military personnel. It's not great that the troop was raped, but he could have jeopardized national security by allowing the infiltrator to have free access to the base.

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

Spoiler: show

Look at that seductive pose, that seducive face, smoking the cigarette indoors! You think with her rivalry with Aoko, she's going to leave Soujuurou with blue balls?

So, I think we should be mindful of other people lurking the thread now and of future readers who might show up eager to find discussion for earlier chapters from other users. Partly I spoiler tag the contents because they are long, but mostly I really do spoiler tag them because they have the potential to spoil the story for people who'd see them but who aren't there yet themselves. This is reflected in a lot of my chapter banner picture selections -- "Why did he choose that!? " when there are much more obvious pictures to choose from to represent the chapter? Well because I don't want to spoil the surprises for anybody. ^_^;

All of this is to say, could I ask you to please spoiler tag this? ^^;

Spoiler: show

I know that "the twist" is obvious to everyone currently reading the thread, but (1) it won't necessarily be obvious to future visitors and (2) even some of the UPNers who are currently active and could be interested in the title may not know of Touko's role in this title. Let them have their big in-game reveal, please. =')

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

Why wouldn't it? Both Rin and Sasaki Kojirou were able to use the Second Magic, though presumably different routes from Zelretch.

Hmm... I don't really have a good rebuttal to either one of these points of comparison. I guess I just feel like I read somewhere long ago, and have run with it for a very long time now, that:

Spoiler: show

unlocking a True Magic was user-specific to the person who reached the Root, and that the magic itself was not teachable or heritable. The fact that True Magic is now being argued to be teachable and/or heritable begs questions about, e.g., what happened with the First Magic and its user. If it's Jesus, as everyone assumes it is, and if the First Magic involves resurrection (or other, perhaps broader powers of healing that Christ demonstrated), as everyone assumes that it does, then I guess it comes right down to: are we working with heritability, then? And the idea that no one can do the First Magic anymore stems from Jesus having left behind no heirs? Or are we dealing with teaching, in which case we have to ask the question -- did Type-Moon Jesus not successfully teach any of his True Magic to Simon Peter or to any of the other disciples? Or are we dealing with heritability but we are also dealing with a Da Vinci Code scenario in which Christ actually did have descendants and the Church has gone out of its way to cover this up for a number of reasons? Questions! ^^; Questions I'm sure Nasu is sitting on until his personal endgame as a Type-Moon content creator. We shall see.

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

[Soujuurou] could be Alice's boyfriend for all [s/he] knows.

So, just as a point of clarification for you in case the information was omitted from the posts but would be obvious to someone reading the book:

Spoiler: show

Touko inquires about the dog collar around Soujuurou's neck. He confirms that it is a dog collar, and that it's not a fashion choice, and that he received it from Aoko. Touko's eyes then narrow as she sinisterly mumbles to herself, "So you're Aoko's, then..." While I suppose you could say that she is still leaping to conclusions and that it is technically possible that Soujuurou be Alice's boyfriend while wearing Aoko's dog collar, I think Touko's conclusion is relatively fair and, in this circumstance, does happen to hold true [that he is not, at least, Alice's loafer boyfriend living at the mansion].

Also, we are told via narration that Soujuurou regales Touko with many stories about Aoko. We are not told that he regales Touko with stories about Alice. So, again, Touko could probably reasonably conclude that Soujuurou is not Alice's boyfriend since, even if he were to still discuss Aoko with a curious Aoko's sister, you would expect him were he Alice's boyfriend to at least bring Alice up occasionally in conversation with Touko too. But the implication really does seem to be a one-sided focus on Aoko as he and Touko sip tea.

[Doppleganger]

Originally Posted by Talon87

Hmm... I don't really have a good rebuttal to either one of these points of comparison. I guess I just feel like I read somewhere long ago, and have run with it for a very long time now, that:

Spoiler: show

unlocking a True Magic was user-specific to the person who reached the Root, and that the magic itself was not teachable or heritable. The fact that True Magic is now being argued to be teachable and/or heritable begs questions about, e.g., what happened with the First Magic and its user. If it's Jesus, as everyone assumes it is, and if the First Magic involves resurrection (or other, perhaps broader powers of healing that Christ demonstrated), as everyone assumes that it does, then I guess it comes right down to: are we working with heritability, then? And the idea that no one can do the First Magic anymore stems from Jesus having left behind no heirs? Or are we dealing with teaching, in which case we have to ask the question -- did Type-Moon Jesus not successfully teach any of his True Magic to Simon Peter or to any of the other disciples? Or are we dealing with heritability but we are also dealing with a Da Vinci Code scenario in which Christ actually did have descendants and the Church has gone out of its way to cover this up for a number of reasons? Questions! ^^; Questions I'm sure Nasu is sitting on until his personal endgame as a Type-Moon content creator. We shall see.

I think in proto materials one of the requirements for magic was that it could have only one user ever, and once multiple people use it, it becomes magecraft. But I'm fairly sure this was obsoleted by the original FSN with Justica and Ilya being able to use Heaven's Feel. This old framework would fit with Aoko discovering the 5th Magic but her grandfather doing most of the heavy research that she springboarded from.

Could try to get away with it by claiming the Jewel Sword, Tsubame Gaeshi are not actual "magic" but "magic-like" but that's a cop-out to me. Simply defining magic as something impossible by conventional magecraft or science is good enough.

[Talon87]

Disclaimer: this reply contains copious Fate/stay night spoilers for the game's third path, Heaven's Feel. It's assumed the reader is familiar due to UPN anime forum community familiarity with the material.

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

I think in proto materials one of the requirements for magic was that it could have only one user ever, and once multiple people use it, it becomes magecraft. But I'm fairly sure this was obsoleted by the original FSN with Justica and Ilya being able to use Heaven's Feel. This old framework would fit with Aoko discovering the 5th Magic but her grandfather doing most of the heavy research that she springboarded from.

Maybe ... Maybe I've been operating off of his old high school notes that fans ravenously referenced in the '04 to '09 years. But I dunno. I feel like this is something that was operationally fact as recently as the lead-up into Mahoyo's 2012 release. Like I said, I've only just now been dissuaded of this by Mahoyo's word-of-God exposition, with Aoko as Nasu's mouthpiece, eleven years after the game's first release.

The more I do think about it, though, the more I do identify possible holes in my previous understanding. For instance, everyone agrees that FSN HF ends with Zelretch taking Rin under his wing. Everyone also agrees that Zelretch took interest in the Tohsaka family specifically because he felt that they had the potential, maybe, to one day ... to one day what, exactly?

Despite their strange relationship, Zelretch entrusted the design of the Jewel Sword to Nagato and the Tohsaka family. Though there were other candidates to whom he could have given them, such as the brilliant Einzberns and Makiris, they were fundamentally evil. Nagato, while mediocre, was good at heart, so he concluded that "this House will probably never accomplish anything great, but at least they will never stray from the righteous path." He then gave the design to Nagato and told him "alright, it will be a struggle, but work towards this goal". He never expected that only six generations would be needed to produce a result.

"Produce a result" -- what does this mean? Does it mean "someone who can wield the 2nd Magic with the jewel sword as a crutch"? Does it mean more simply "someone who can wield the jewel sword"? Does it mean "someone who can wield the 2nd Magic", with or without the sword? What exactly is the "result" that Zelretch felt the family might one day produce, and which he felt Rin did produce at the end of HF? All I'm confident in right now, without refreshing myself massively on HF, is that at the end of the path:

1. Rin definitely uses the sword.
2. The sword definitely is an artifact (to use MtG terminology) / Mystic Code (to use Nasu's) which either:
   1. catalyzes the 2nd Magic. That is to say, if it's normally really, really difficult to use the 2nd Magic, the jewel sword makes it thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis easy to use it. How easy is "this easy"? I have no idea.
   2. has the 2nd Magic built into it.
3. The sword very specifically allows Rin to siphon a non-zero amount of mana away from as many universes as she likes. Insert discussions of thermodynamics and the 2nd Magic here.

It would basically seem to boil down to this:

• (working forwards from A) if Zelretch believes that Rin's wielding of the jeweled sword promises the potential for an heir to the 2nd Magic, then this means that the 2nd Magic must be teachable
• (working backwards from B) if the 2nd Magic is heritable only, then Rin (and/or her descendants), no matter how gifted and no matter how attuned to the 2nd Magic, will never be able to directly wield it the way that Zelretch can -- she/they can only wield it through the use of Mystic Codes like the sword and other accessory devices.

Which one is it? I still have no idea. *shrug*

You said something at the end there:

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

This old framework would fit with Aoko discovering the 5th Magic but her grandfather doing most of the heavy research that she springboarded from.

To give precise insight from the game:

Spoiler: show

1. Aoko denies being able to use Magic. Thus, she denies being able to use the Fifth Magic.
2. Aoko states being the heir to the Fifth Magic, designated by her grandfather. Thus, even though she cannot wield it, she possesses it currently? *shrug*
3. Aoko states that one of her ancestors figured it out. We're not sure how far back before Grandfather, but it's rather implied that it may be the person who put Clan Aozaki on the map. Regardless, it's someone before Grandfather.

So, I'm still trying to figure out what all of this means. But I don't think your hypothesis about "Grandfather did most of the research" is correct -- I feel like the research was already completed generations ago by the Aozaki ancestor who discovered the Fifth Magic; I feel like that ancestor wielded the Fifth Magic; and I feel like if Grandfather didn't wield the Fifth Magic, it was only because possessing it and wielding it are two different things in the Nasuverse. *shrug* I really didn't get the impression from Aoko's backstory that she is going to be the first person ever to wield the Fifth Magic. I also really didn't get the impression that Grandfather did a lot of research trying to claw Clan Aozaki towards reaching this goal -- perhaps he did a lot of research for himself, I dunno *shrug*, but the discovery process seems to have already been completed by the as-of-yet Nameless Aozaki Ancestor.

[Doppleganger]

Nasu is just uncooperatively vague on the canon, and I think that's part laziness and part intent for him.

What I believe is the missing connective tissue is that supposedly only one of Zelretch's kin could inherit the Second Magic. I think this was actually said in HF itself, although it's difficult to tell if it's poetic or literal:



When you look at the Aozakis and the Einzberns, with the True Magic users and adjacents being blood relatives, this makes sense.

But it also implies that Nagato an by extension Rin are descendants of Zelretch, and I've never seen anything anywhere outside of the above that explicitly links them this way.

Zelretch serendipitously meeting Nagoto, a non-mage in Japan, teaching him magic and eventually leading to some amazing result later? We've seen wizards behave like this before...Gandalf with Bilbo, Dumbledore with Harry. They pretend it's all whim and off-cuff when it was actually calculated. Occam's Razor, Zelretch was keeping tabs on his descendants and that's what led him to Nagato.

[Talon87]

(1) Does a lineage have to be "genetic"? Can "Schweinorg's lineage" refer to those who keep his teachings alive? If a child is one's genetic heir, is not a disciple one's "teachings heir"?

(2) Is it possible that every living human on the planet might be a descendant of Zelretch's at this point? While it somewhat depends on how far back he first had kids, how many kids he had, and of course the various individual dice rolls on who made it how far (and how many kids they had) before dying, statistically if Zelretch is around before 4,500 B.C.E. and has even one kid once every thousand years ... wouldn't the first couple of children be enough to ensure his genetic lineage covers a massive swath of modern humanity? See the classic "Everyone is a descendant of Charlemagne" math-bio discussion. For added reading, see here. The latter even adds a fun date for us to work with:

In 2004 mathematical modeling and computer simulations by a group of statisticians led by Douglas Rohde, then at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, indicated that our most recent common ancestor probably lived no earlier than 1400 B.C. and possibly as recently as A.D. 55. In the time of Egypt’s Queen Nefertiti, someone from whom we are all descended was likely alive somewhere in the world.

This is not quite the same thing as saying that "everyone alive at this point in time was everyone today's ancestor", but I feel like if 1,400 B.C.E. is good enough to guarantee us all one shared ancestor, then 4,500 B.C.E. might be good enough to take it to the next level.

EDIT: lol, I needed only have read on a bit further ^_^; =') :

Go back a bit further, and you reach a date when our family trees share not just one ancestor in common but every ancestor in common. At this date, called the genetic isopoint, the family trees of any two people on the earth now, no matter how distantly related they seem, trace back to the same set of individuals. “If you were alive at the genetic isopoint, then you are the ancestor of either everyone alive today or no one alive today,” Rutherford says. Humans left Africa and began dispersing throughout the world at least 120,000 years ago, but the genetic isopoint occurred much more recently—somewhere between 5300 and 2200 B.C., according to Rohde’s calculations.

So there you have it. Zelretch is either the ancestor of everyone alive or else the ancestor of absolutely nobody, by sheer mathematics-of-biology. This is probably not something that Nasu was keenly aware of in 2004, so I doubt it was intentional, but here we have it.

[Doppleganger]

Originally Posted by Talon87

(1) Does a lineage have to be "genetic"? Can "Schweinorg's lineage" refer to those who keep his teachings alive? If a child is one's genetic heir, is not a disciple one's "teachings heir"?

This scratches a fundmental problem with Nasu's writing that also overlaps with Biblical...the literal versus figurative. Nasu uses both and doesn't always telegraph when something is or isn't, especially in earlier works (it seems easier to tell in Mahoyo) and going from JP to ENG doesn't help.

For example, when looking for that snapshot from above, I see that the Jewel Sword is described as "alien technology". This is on the Wiki and quoted directly from HF itself.

"Alien" can mean anything from "exotic" to literally "of extraterrestrial origin". The word is trying to get across that it's too advanced for Shirou to understand, but Shirou also has Archer's knowledge, and thus the knowledge of countless swordsmen, at his disposal.

So with the Jeweled Sword, Ilya could be saying "normally it can't be used by anyone except Zelretch's heir" or "it cannot be used by anyone except Zelretch's heir". In that scene, she's consoling Shirou who didn't perfectly copy it, because he didn't understand it. If he can't use it, why can only Rin?

It seems really suspicious to me that the only people in the world who can use the sword are Rin and Zelretch. Add to how we know the Makiris were not originally Japanese, having fled to Japan initially, and I think Nasu was trying to lead readers to draw the conclusion that Rin is Zelretch's heir.

Originally Posted by Talon87

This is not quite the same thing as saying that "everyone alive at this point in time was everyone today's ancestor", but I feel like if 1,400 B.C.E. is good enough to guarantee us all one shared ancestor, then 4,500 B.C.E. might be good enough to take it to the next level.

EDIT: lol, I needed only have read on a bit further ^_^; =') :

Go back a bit further, and you reach a date when our family trees share not just one ancestor in common but every ancestor in common. At this date, called the genetic isopoint, the family trees of any two people on the earth now, no matter how distantly related they seem, trace back to the same set of individuals. “If you were alive at the genetic isopoint, then you are the ancestor of either everyone alive today or no one alive today,” Rutherford says. Humans left Africa and began dispersing throughout the world at least 120,000 years ago, but the genetic isopoint occurred much more recently—somewhere between 5300 and 2200 B.C., according to Rohde’s calculations.

So there you have it. Zelretch is either the ancestor of everyone alive or else the ancestor of absolutely nobody, by sheer mathematics-of-biology. This is probably not something that Nasu was keenly aware of in 2004, so I doubt it was intentional, but here we have it.

I actually think Nasu was aware of the Genghis Khan meme, it's pretty well known even amongst the normie crowd. I don't think it factors into his universe in this case though because in FSN, Zelretch is still assumed a vampire and had a normal human lifspan before getting turned.

From that point on he wouldn't have children, and being a vampire it would explain why he's immortal, has the ability to detect his own blood and why he'd have an interest in his heirs, his only remaining family.

Doesn't fit quite so well in the new canon. For one, Zelretch apparently isn't a German celt anymore, but a semite.

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

This scratches a fundmental problem with Nasu's writing that also overlaps with Biblical...the literal versus figurative. Nasu uses both and doesn't always telegraph when something is or isn't, especially in earlier works (it seems easier to tell in Mahoyo) and going from JP to ENG doesn't help.

For example, when looking for that snapshot from above, I see that the Jewel Sword is described as "alien technology". This is on the Wiki and quoted directly from HF itself.

"Alien" can mean anything from "exotic" to literally "of extraterrestrial origin". The word is trying to get across that it's too advanced for Shirou to understand, but Shirou also has Archer's knowledge, and thus the knowledge of countless swordsmen, at his disposal.

So with the Jeweled Sword, Ilya could be saying "normally it can't be used by anyone except Zelretch's heir" or "it cannot be used by anyone except Zelretch's heir". In that scene, she's consoling Shirou who didn't perfectly copy it, because he didn't understand it. If he can't use it, why can only Rin?

It seems really suspicious to me that the only people in the world who can use the sword are Rin and Zelretch. Add to how we know the Makiris were not originally Japanese, having fled to Japan initially, and I think Nasu was trying to lead readers to draw the conclusion that Rin is Zelretch's heir.

All interesting points. I had forgotten the argument that Shirou cannot wield the sword, or that Rin is exceptional for her ability to wield the sword. That would again seem to point to an idea of either "the Tohsakas are of Schweinorg's teachings lineage" or else "the Tohsakas are of Schweinorg's genetic lineage" in a way that Shirou et al may not be. Alternatively, if Nasu wishes to pursue the math-bio discussion about descent from Charlemagne or descent from Genghis Khan, then perhaps the fact that Shirou cannot wield the sword but Rin can is less telling about Rin than it is about Shirou, an individual who to this day we know precious little about his pedigree.

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

I actually think Nasu was aware of the Genghis Khan meme, it's pretty well known even amongst the normie crowd. I don't think it factors into his universe in this case though because in FSN, Zelretch is still assumed a vampire and had a normal human lifspan before getting turned.

So, this has been retconned. �� You seem to possibly be aware of it, writing that "it is assumed" he is a vampire and later making reference to the "new canon"... But just in case you don't know, I will go ahead and dive into an explanation below.

The remainder of this post contains copious spoilers for Parts 1 and 2 of Fate/Grand Order.

When writing for Fate/Grand Order, Nasu introduced the idea of a world-tree of timelines, trying to somewhat codify the multiverse that exists within his Nasuverse framework. And to the extent that he gave fans codification, Nasu explained and made canon that while there are an infinite number of universes, not all conceivable permutations are possible. So for example, because of how infinity works, we can say that "there are an infinite number of universes in which Doppel discovered Pokémon," but this has no guarantee on the number of universes in which Doppel didn't discover Pokémon. Because of how infinity works, it then tends to bleed down all-or-none angles -- either there are an infinite number of universes in which [blank] happens, or else there are no universes in which [blank] happens.

In Part 1 of Fate/Grand Order, the archvillain's goal is the eradication of humanity achieved by the destabilization of human history such that, in all possible timelines, humanity ceases to exist by the year 2015. Nasu's argument in Part 1 is that world history can resist smaller changes to the timeline -- the world won't end just because in this timeline Shirou ate a jelly donut for breakfast but in this timeline he had mackerel and miso soup -- but that there are certain "lynchpin moments" in human history that have to happen in all timelines for which humanity makes it past 2015. So he argues, for instance, that in all successful timelines ("successful" meaning human civilization makes it into the future) there has to have been a Roman empire. He argues that there has to have been a successful American experiment called the United States of America. He argues that there has to have been not total annihilation of the kingdom of Ur, that so long as some survivors make it out of Ur alive and proceed to give rise to proto-Assyria, etc, that we're good. The archvillain's goal, thus, is to make it so that Rome falls prematurely; so that the American experiment dies in the cradle; so that Ur is wiped off the face of the map completely, no survivors; etc.

You can think of it like weight distribution dynamics -- Nasu argues that the World can resist certain perturbations and "restore itself" / "course-correct", but that some perturbations are simply incompatible with a timeline in which humanity makes it out of the early 21st century. So for instance, when the villain sets out to destabilize the timeline by murdering the American experiment in its crib, he arranges for the successful execution of George Washington (among other plot details); when our heroes successfully save the American experiment, it is not by bringing George Washington back to life -- they can't. Instead, the America of the "saved timeline" is an America in which the 1st president of the United States is someone else, and George Washington died during the conflict. George Washington being America's 1st President is not a requirement for the infinite number of timelines in which Humanity makes it across the finish line -- but America coming into being at all, and becoming the nation it became by the end of the 19th century, Nasu argues is. To provide another, much more poignant example, a spoiler for the end of the final Singularity of Part 1, Absolute Demonic Front Babylonia:

Spoiler: show

In all timelines for which humanity is successful, there cannot be a total annihilation of Ur. That's the requirement. So what happens is:

• before the enemy's plan is put into motion, history has it that Ur's peak was during the reign of King Gilgamesh, and that several generations later his dynasty came to an end and the people of Ur sort of dissipated throughout the area and eventually you get successor kingdoms like Assyria and later Babylon.
• the enemy sets into motion a devastating assault on Ur during the reign of Gilgamesh
• when the heroes arrive to try and fix the timeline, they discover that Ur is already heavily besieged
• there are no take-backs, and for purposes of dramatic storytelling the heroes did not arrive prior to the enemy launching his timeline nuke; so the dead remain dead, the devastation remains, etc.
• the heroes ultimately win, but the toll is tremendous: Gilgamesh will be the last king of the now-failed state of Ur; the survivors number in the hundreds; and history will remember him as the king during whose watch Ur fell

It's a sad, poignant, irritating idea (and that was precisely Nasu's intent), but at the end of the day, "the world will go on" and it didn't require Gilgamesh to be particularly successful or well-loved by history -- all it required is that Ur didn't get completely snuffed out under his watch. If the kingdom ends with him, so be it. If history remembers him as a failed head of state, so be it.

In Part 1, Nasu introduces readers to Singularities. A "Singularity" refers to one of those timeline perturbations where, left unchecked, the human civilization vehicle will lose control and go off-road. There's no taking back the swerving -- the swerving is now a permanent part of the fabric of the timeline -- but we can at least see if the heroes can right the ship. In all cases, these Singularities concern the timeline which the heroes originate from. (Through a lot of hand-wavey magic, the heroes are insulated from the effects of the timeline's many historical changes as their base of operations exists within a bubble that still follows the rules and historical expectations of the world they knew on the eve of the archvillain's attack. Basically "they're in a magic bubble" approx. one military compound in diameter.)

In Part 2, Nasu introduces readers to Lostbelts. A "Lostbelt" refers to a hypothetical timeline which could have been but which has 1+ fundamental problems with it that prevent it from being "the one". Because the World wants Humanity to make it, the World tends to "prune" these lostbelt "branches" from the timeline "tree". They are alternately referred to as "pruned worlds", although in the context of FGO and to be terminologically accurate, when we visit Lostbelts they are as yet not pruned and are actively resisting being pruned. Hence why they are "Lostbelts" to begin with -- they cease to exist once pruned, and wouldn't be a Lostbelt if they were an acceptable permutation of the timeline. What makes them a Lostbelt is precisely the fact that they are not an acceptable permutation to the timeline yet are resisting being pruned. (Much more plot to explain there, but for now -- for our current conversation -- this will suffice.) To quote the fan Wiki:

The primary history of the worlds is called the Proper Human History (汎人類史, also called Pan-Human History), consisting of all worlds that have not been pruned. Worlds that are cut off completely but are artificially sustained beyond the point at which they would be pruned are called Lostbelts.

In the wake of introducing Lostbelts and further codifying his idea of a World-timeline-Tree, Nasu retcons that there are only two types of worlds which are ultimately compatible with Humanity making it out of the 21st century. These two types of worlds, these two "mega-branches" of the World-timeline-Tree, are Fate worlds and Tsukihime worlds. Quoting the fan Wiki again:

Although most works share a similar foundation where it could be said that they take place in the same world, there are actually two primary types of worlds, Fate Worlds (Fate世界, Feito Sekai) and Tsukihime Worlds (月姫世界, Tsukihime Sekai). Fate worlds are based in the "Affirmation of Human History" where Heroic Spirits can be summoned as Servants, and Tsukihime Worlds are based in the "■■■■■■■■ of Human History" where the concept of summoning Heroic Spirits is laughable and where Dead Apostles, the antithesis of Human History, stand at the center of the story.

While the Wiki does note that "there are [also] worlds that 'aren't really either' type of world [and] that do have elements of both for unknown reasons," for the most part the idea is that there are Fate worlds, there are Tsukihime worlds, and then there are worlds incompatible with a future for Humanity.

So what does all of this mean for Zelretch?

You had said:

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

in FSN, Zelretch is still assumed a vampire and had a normal human lifspan before getting turned.

This is the part that has been retconned, heavily. It is now Type-Moon canon that Heroic Spirits do not exist in Tsukihime worlds and likewise that True Ancestors do not exist (or did not survive? *shrug*) in Fate worlds. So what this means for Zelretch is that we now have at minimum two different Zelretches, canonically -- "Fate-world Zelretch" and "Tsukihime-world Zelretch".

I know, I know: it's dumb. It completely up-ends the charm and the allure of the character. ^_^; Zelretch is the original, the O.G., "character who links the worlds together." He is the multiverse traveler who slides in and out of existence between worlds and pals it up with the Brunestuds one weekend and tutors Rin the next. He can theoretically still do all of this, but it becomes a lot less charming when we stop of thinking of Zelretch as "one man traversing the multiverse" and start thinking of him as an infinite collection of men, some of them Coke-type and some of them Pepsi-type, such that a future chapter of the franchise could see a near-infinite collection of Zelretches all appearing at once to take on the Super Duper Wooper Big Bad.

Is this what Zelretch has become?

Per the fan Wiki:

Within Tsukihime worlds, he was turned into a Dead Apostle after his battle with the Crimson Moon and became recognized as the third of The Twenty-seven Dead Apostle Ancestors. Within Fate worlds, he did not become a Dead Apostle, but found immortality through other means.

I think it's dumb personally but whether I like it or not has nothing to do with whether it's the new canon or not. It's the new canon, and until Nasu decides to retcon it again we have to deal with it.

[Doppleganger]

Oh...I had known that there was a retcon, but I never imagined it would be so deep as to basically make Tsukihime and Fate separate universes entire.

So what universe is Mahoyo supposed to be in? Are we not expected to know until some later time?