UPNetwork  

Go Back   UPNetwork > General Forums > Debate

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-12-2017, 12:19 PM   #3826
Shuckle
Problematic Fave
 
Shuckle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: VA
Posts: 3,199
Hmm, reading more into it I'm not sure that this goes anywhere. I think it's just the email scandal 2.0, where someone did something that was wrong to do but didn't really result in anything terrible happening.

Trump, Jr. is not a politician and was not actually part of his father's campaign. It's still important to hold him accountable for this, but it's reasonable for him to say "Well this guy who knows Putin says the Russians have Hillary's emails, and that he saw some of them. I'd love to hear more about it." Wrong, but not treason or anything.
__________________
Shuckle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2017, 09:04 PM   #3827
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Emina Isle
Posts: 14,198
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
I am so bored with this administration already.

I'm also a little pissed that Trump isn't as business-friendly as expected. If we had Hillary, sure by now, TPP would have passed, but so would have the Walgreens-Rite Aid merger. :/
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2017, 01:37 PM   #3828
McSweeney
Soul Badge
 
McSweeney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 1,488
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
I am so bored with this administration already.
Agreed. This whole Russian hacking "scandal" is the most boring shit ever. In the new age of 24 hour news channels, the media are so desperate to latch onto anything, blow it out of proportion and speculate about nothing endlessly.
__________________


Smoking Gary sez:
"Stay in school kidz"
McSweeney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 04:26 AM   #3829
Rangeet
Foot, meet mouth.
 
Rangeet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Beyond the Wall
Posts: 4,362
Send a message via MSN to Rangeet Send a message via Skype™ to Rangeet
Oh, yeah. The President of the united states is potentially under the control of, or colluding secretly with, Vladmir Putin, leader of an authoritarian regime. How boring.

There's really a limit to apathy before it becomes malicious.
__________________
Spoiler: show
Rangeet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 09:18 AM   #3830
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Emina Isle
Posts: 14,198
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangeet View Post
Oh, yeah. The President of the united states is potentially under the control of, or colluding secretly with, Vladmir Putin, leader of an authoritarian regime. How boring.

There's really a limit to apathy before it becomes malicious.
You clearly remember nothing about Bush, who was even more visibly a puppet than Trump could be. And Putin's a cool guy, why we have to be enemies? We both hate the jihadis, there should be a bromance there.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 09:23 AM   #3831
Jerichi
プラスチック♡ラブ
 
Jerichi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: 蒸気の波の中
Posts: 14,766
Hard to say we should be buddies when they're pretty clearly trying to shake faith in the US democratic process.

But we probably did something comparable to the USSR so /shrug
__________________


私のことを消して本気で愛さないで 恋なんてただのゲーム 楽しめばそれでいい
閉ざした心を飾る 派手なドレスも靴も 孤独の友達

asbwffb

[jerichi]
Jerichi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 05:25 PM   #3832
McSweeney
Soul Badge
 
McSweeney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 1,488
Russia and Iran are unjustifiably vilified. Yet another symptom of the bored, fear-mongering media.
__________________


Smoking Gary sez:
"Stay in school kidz"
McSweeney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 05:26 PM   #3833
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Emina Isle
Posts: 14,198
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Rigged elections/voting have happened throughout US history. It's nothing new. If people are upset, it just shows how ignorant they really are about US politics after 1789 that they didn't personally experience. Like could the average American actually give details about Andrew Jackson's presidency?

If you want to cite a recent example that would "shake faith in the US democratic process", look no further than Bush v. Gore which was driven completely by partisanship. It underlined something that really started with Clinton, but wasn't completely obvious until Obama, that the US parties are no longer interested in compromise and play for keeps every election.

At the very least, despite what others might say, the "mainstream" is moving left, albeit at a snail's pace. That's because not only did industry leave the Rust Belt, now the next generation is leaving it too, for the big cities. It'll take a while but in 50 years the midwest will be dust.

Someone linked this to me on a certain blog:

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cn4Gx5WfF.../US-houses.png

Where are people moving to? It should be pretty obvious here. And no, just because there's growth in the South doesn't mean it's getting more conservative. People are moving out of places like NY State, down into Georgia and Alabama.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 06:05 PM   #3834
deh74
Noted homosexual
 
deh74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Praising the sun
Posts: 1,091
I just want to make it known that there is a reason why the members of this board who actually participate in the political process or work in politics don't come on to this thread. In my experience as a legislative aide in the Massachusetts House of Representatives, Regional Coordinator for the Massachusetts Democratic Party, and Field Director for a Massachusetts Senate campaign it is my opinion that the level of dicussion observed in this thread is rivalled in its banality only by certain parts of Reddit, and that the patterns of discussion in this thread are repetitive to the point of monotony. I cannot understand how anybody comes out of this thread without feeling more frustrated than when they went in.
__________________




PASBL
The Whistling Sound of Impending Doom.

deh74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 06:06 PM   #3835
Connor
Flashbacker
 
Connor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 9,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by McSweeney View Post
Russia and Iran are unjustifiably vilified. Yet another symptom of the bored, fear-mongering media.
I understand your viewpoint to an extent, but can you really say it is unfair vilification? Both countries have a pretty poor track record when it comes to basic human rights (for differing reasons), and Russia especially are pretty extremist in a lot of their practices. They didn't think much of what was, if we're being entirely honest, essentially a government funded attempt to annex parts of Ukraine, their judicial system is regularly abused to silence dissent or those who Putin views as political enemies. There have even been government approved assassinations (search Alexander Litvinyenko). You can't in good faith really say this is a regime which is unfairly vilified, surely?

This isn't even getting into the matter of fact that on a more social level their approach towards progressive matters is genuinely abhorrent. Homophobia is absolutely rampant, and ingrained racism clearly comes out every time Russia appears at a major football tournament, to use a pretty obvious example. So much is wrong with Russia on a fundamental level.

I can understand gripes with media coverage in the modern age, a lot of it tends to err on the side of looking for that one "big scoop" and the amount of "experts" who throw their weight around to commentate on the slightest shift in political landscape can definitely get weary, but I feel like you're extending that a little too far in scope.
Connor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 06:53 PM   #3836
Snorby
Snackin'
 
Snorby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,754
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Rigged elections/voting have happened throughout US history. It's nothing new. If people are upset, it just shows how ignorant they really are about US politics after 1789 that they didn't personally experience. Like could the average American actually give details about Andrew Jackson's presidency?

If you want to cite a recent example that would "shake faith in the US democratic process", look no further than Bush v. Gore which was driven completely by partisanship. It underlined something that really started with Clinton, but wasn't completely obvious until Obama, that the US parties are no longer interested in compromise and play for keeps every election.

At the very least, despite what others might say, the "mainstream" is moving left, albeit at a snail's pace. That's because not only did industry leave the Rust Belt, now the next generation is leaving it too, for the big cities. It'll take a while but in 50 years the midwest will be dust.

Someone linked this to me on a certain blog:

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cn4Gx5WfF.../US-houses.png

Where are people moving to? It should be pretty obvious here. And no, just because there's growth in the South doesn't mean it's getting more conservative. People are moving out of places like NY State, down into Georgia and Alabama.
Man, it's almost like corruption within our own government when we were still a fledgling democracy without much influence in international affairs (Quincy Adams, Hayes) and a foreign power tampering with our elections to both weaken faith in our own democracy at home and injure our strength abroad when we're the most powerful and influential country on the planet are on completely different levels.

Or maybe people realize that you can't retroactively remove JQA or RBH from office 150-200 years later but you can take actions against the current President and his administration as needed so they're gonna focus on what they can do something about instead of starting a Senate Investigation into the Election of 1824.

...nah, that'd be ridiculous.
__________________

Click on Fawful for my ASB squad summary. Other links coming soon.
Snorby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 07:34 PM   #3837
deoxys
Fog Badge
 
deoxys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,513
Let it be known that Page 154 of the American Politics thread was the page that actually achieved levels of mental gymnastics previously thought impossible, considering the 3,825 posts of precedence.
deoxys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 07:42 PM   #3838
Jerichi
プラスチック♡ラブ
 
Jerichi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: 蒸気の波の中
Posts: 14,766
Jerichi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 09:22 PM   #3839
Mozz
Golden Wang of Justice
 
Mozz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,936
fantastic thread, i guess
__________________
Mozz's Van, named after Bulbagardens creditor, was a hidden forum section where staff members could share pictures of their tiny penises and engage in homosex. Sadly, HAVA media, Bulbagardens new corporate overlord, forced it's closure. Can't have porn on a children's website.
Mozz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 09:31 PM   #3840
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Emina Isle
Posts: 14,198
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Connor View Post
I understand your viewpoint to an extent, but can you really say it is unfair vilification? Both countries have a pretty poor track record when it comes to basic human rights (for differing reasons), and Russia especially are pretty extremist in a lot of their practices. They didn't think much of what was, if we're being entirely honest, essentially a government funded attempt to annex parts of Ukraine, their judicial system is regularly abused to silence dissent or those who Putin views as political enemies. There have even been government approved assassinations (search Alexander Litvinyenko). You can't in good faith really say this is a regime which is unfairly vilified, surely?
I think it's unfair just because, given the nature of media today, people cross-apply narratives in fiction to the real world. The Islamic State, for example, is a Nazi-like mustache twirling villain, portrayed as completely unsympathetic from the American POV. That's why so many people want to engage in a ground war with them despite Obama's war of attrition having the most success - it's a throwback to Bush's vision of the righteous crusader slaying the villainous Hun. I know I mixed metaphors here.

Russia isn't Nazi Germany or the Islamic State, it's a much more complex country with a different value system from the US that is well documented but poorly understood by the average American. Yes, the Russians preferred being "the villain" than to being politically irrelevant, but that wasn't an issue during the Bush Era when oil prices were sky high and Russians were reaping the benefits of it. It's only a concern now when the country is hurting and Putin has been largely ineffective at breaking its reliance on oil.

Russia isn't the USSR. I don't get any fear of imminent nuclear attack from it, versus a powder keg like North Korea. It's being portrayed a villain because Thor needs someone to smash with his hammer and Russians have been seen as villains for half a century.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 10:18 PM   #3841
deoxys
Fog Badge
 
deoxys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,513
Jesus Christ, give me a break. This is far simpler than you are making it out to be.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founda...of_Geopolitics
deoxys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2017, 07:17 AM   #3842
Heather
Naga's Voice
 
Heather's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: somewhere gay idk
Posts: 3,279
In other news, fuck these people in particular.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveTheFishGuy View Post
Quoth the Honchkrow (nevermore!).
Fizzy Member Post: Catherine Park
Heather is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2017, 07:44 AM   #3843
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Emina Isle
Posts: 14,198
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Quote:
Originally Posted by deoxys View Post
Jesus Christ, give me a break. This is far simpler than you are making it out to be.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founda...of_Geopolitics
1997 was a heck of a year, wasn't it?
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2017, 08:55 AM   #3844
Connor
Flashbacker
 
Connor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 9,068
Russians are viewed as villains because bluntly they actively go out of their way to act the villain. On top of all the human rights issues I've raised, they also actively back a clearly despotic regime in Syria, and regularly and flagrantly invade other countries borders with flimsy excuses. I am much more scared of the possible flash point between USA and Russia than I am North Korea.

There is very little possibility to sympathise with the Russian government when you consider everything that they have actually done to earn the reputation they have.

The debate on Russia isn't a non-issue like you're trying to portray it and you genuinely sound more like a Fox News caster than you do anything else right now. They are corrupt, intent on destabilising national security for their own gain (as displayed in numerous instances), are depressingly anti-human rights and strong enough militarily to largely get away with all this.
Connor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2017, 01:05 PM   #3845
deoxys
Fog Badge
 
deoxys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
1997 was a heck of a year, wasn't it?
Classic Dopple.
deoxys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2017, 01:31 PM   #3846
Toyo
hail
 
Toyo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,036
tfw lgbt people aren't allowed to exist in Russia and in some sections are literally put into concentration camps but Russia is being unfairly villified
Toyo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2017, 05:17 PM   #3847
McSweeney
Soul Badge
 
McSweeney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 1,488
I was talking more about the threat that Russia supposedly presents to the world. It's fine for you to not agree with them on their social values, but that's their own business and it's hilarious to feel threatened by them. Their economy is about the same size as Australia's, and their military is also a dying husk; when they sent their one aircraft carrier to Syria it was a fiasco. It was escorted by a tugboat because its engine is always in danger of breaking down. It belched black smoke through the English Channel and at one point it requested to stop in Spain (a NATO member) for refueling. When it finally got to Syria, its fighters could only drop a handful of bombs at a time because it has an old ski ramp design instead of catapults (limiting payloads).

I don't like Trump, but wanting to be strategic allies with Russia in order to combat terrorism isn't one of the reasons why he's bad.
__________________


Smoking Gary sez:
"Stay in school kidz"
McSweeney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2017, 12:11 AM   #3848
Snorby
Snackin'
 
Snorby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,754
Sorry but just in general I think "Well it's not my family they're murdering so they can do their own thing and we'll do ours" is the wrong approach to human rights.
__________________

Click on Fawful for my ASB squad summary. Other links coming soon.
Snorby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2017, 12:37 AM   #3849
McSweeney
Soul Badge
 
McSweeney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 1,488
Concerning those anti-gay camps in Chechnya in the link above: the primarily Muslim Chechnya is an extremely unstable part of Russia. Yeah, it's obvious that Putin is turning a blind eye to what's going on there, and gives the local government there a large amount of autonomy. He clearly fears having to fight another separatist war (Chechen rebels fought two independence wars against Russia already in the last 22 years) and more acts of terrorism if he just marches the army in there and starts busting heads. It's an unfortunate situation, but you can't use it as proof that "Russia" is rounding up gays and putting them into concentration camps. Homosexuality was legalized in Russia in the 90s, although they still suffer heavy discrimination and do not enjoy same-sex marriage.
__________________


Smoking Gary sez:
"Stay in school kidz"
McSweeney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2017, 02:58 AM   #3850
Snorby
Snackin'
 
Snorby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,754
Less than a year of fighting at the turn of the century doesn't excuse Putin and his government from culpability for the actions of Russian territories nor does it excuse inaction in the face of flagrant violations of Russian law, international law, and human rights.

I honestly am unsure what world you live in where you think ignoring literal concentration camps in your own country is okay.

Besides, who said they have to roll the army on in and start busting heads? The Kremlin provides Chechnya with over 80% of the region's budget. If Putin wanted he could just cut off the cash and have those camps shut down by the end of the month.
__________________

Click on Fawful for my ASB squad summary. Other links coming soon.
Snorby is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   UPNetwork > General Forums > Debate


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 3 (0 members and 3 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:03 AM.


Design By: Miner Skinz.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.