Bond and Clarity Rework

[Ironthunder]

Originally Posted by lilboocorsola

So, I want to start off by first saying I'm hard against the idea of tying Bond to finished Adventures, since I don't think it's a feasible way of earning gains any faster (myself having only ever managed to complete one Adventure in all my time in FB). Also not keen on extra Bond being rewarded by more words for reasons others have pointed out. That stated, I'm going to propose/agree with some radical changes that largely do away with Bond('s substantial influence) altogether.



My suggested tweaks:

-Bond is condensed back to a 0-10 scale, as Beauty/Happiness Points originally were. Happiness Evolutions occur at 10 Bond.
-Unnatural TMs can be taught by default, as was the case when I first signed up for FB (and a major appeal about the game to me, since it allows for low-Leveled 'mons with shallow Movepools to be just as versatile).
-Custom, Advanced and Shadow moves are just in the MT. Usual restrictions apply. Bond requirements for natural AMs are removed. (However we can look into alternatives of learning these unnaturally, perhaps as a FC Reward instead? Also for thematic purposes CMs Gummi Bomb and Guardian Terrain could still be connected to Bond if people prefer.)
-Move Relearner is available by default. (Again, I feel the advantage of this is to aid players in expanding their less experienced 'mons Movepools to be more viable for Adventuring in Zones.)
-Frustration/Return operate on the 0-10 scale.
-Yummi Gummis still give 1 Bond, Mysterious can give 2(?) Bond benefits from Balls/other Items tbd.
-Daycare Levels are doubled by default, since we were just discussing ways of increasing Level gains for players. (If for some reason a player only wants a 'mon to gain one Level this can also be an available option.)

Basically, the only real use of Bond will once again be for Happiness Evolutions, so for those who find it unnecessary/cumbersome to keep close track of they can simply choose not to if it's not required/doesn't benefit them. This can also cut down heavily on the need for "policing" logs, although either way I'm all for just relying on an honor system.

Don't really have an opinion on Clarity/names for Shadow Moves at this time, so I'll let those invested come to a decision.

Honestly this is probably the best solution I've seen. Trim out the excess and make Bond just for happiness evos and Return/Frustration.

[Sneaze]

Phone post again so apologies if this is a bit short.

People have already summarized my thoughts on Iron's (and to an extent, Yuki's) proposal fairly well here. At the moment we're not really looking to do away with Bond and remove all of the attached bits and pieces that are involved with it, instead we are looking to try and simplify the existing system into a bit of a middle ground while reducing the difficulty in gaining and tracking points. The reason for this is it's just a bit easier to take the discussion where it needs to go at a later point from a more reduced format than it would be if we scrapped a large chunk of the mechanics, as well as not wanting to devalue the hard work people have put into gaining Bond in the current system.

That said, there are a couple points I do agree with from what Yuki has brought forward that can be implemented easily and not overly affect the rebalancing of Bond at a later point if need be, so I would propose the following.
-Unnatural TMs/TRs teachable by default (so long as you have the TM/TR, i.e. not from the Calendar)
-Move Relearner available by default
-Levels available per trainer per week in the Daycare increased to 4

This would help to alleviate the RP entry barrier without bringing us too much closer to shop simulator, and would allow for some mechanics to remain as Bond rewards where they feel more earned and prevent us from straying too far awy from FB's roots at the moment.

Enigma does also bring up a good point, one I had planned to put forward a little later on discussion but can be talked about now that the put forward absolute strictest scenario for Bond rewards has been basically unanimously shot down as I expected. Moving Bond RP rewards to a lower minimum. I would be fine with this reducing to 150 words. 250 has always been an awkward number for those who prefer shorter, more concise RP, so this wouldn't be an issue in my eyes at all.

Similarly, we do also need to talk about what qualifies as interaction with the Pokemon for Bond from RP, as at the moment it is extremely vague, so opinions on what everyone considers fine there would be appreciated, as my thoughts on the matter are basically "did the Pokemon actually do something?", but even that is more than a little too vague.

Once we have some responses on all of this I'll get a writeup put here of changes to the OP as discussed thus far.

[Missingno. Master]

Originally Posted by Sneaze

-Unnatural TMs/TRs teachable by default (so long as you have the TM/TR, i.e. not from the Calendar)

Question about this- when you say unnatural TMs/TRs teachable by default except from the Calendar., what would this mean for the prospect of teaching unnatural TMs/TRs from the Calendar? Would that still be locked behind a Bond threshold, or would it only allow unnatural TMs/TRs from the Calendar for Pokémon that already learned all natural TMs/TRs, or something else entirely?

[Sneaze]

Most likely knowing all naturals only, but it's very much up for discussion and everyone who works on the calendar I welcome the input of.

[Ironthunder]

Originally Posted by Sneaze

Phone post again so apologies if this is a bit short.

People have already summarized my thoughts on Iron's (and to an extent, Yuki's) proposal fairly well here. At the moment we're not really looking to do away with Bond and remove all of the attached bits and pieces that are involved with it, instead we are looking to try and simplify the existing system into a bit of a middle ground while reducing the difficulty in gaining and tracking points. The reason for this is it's just a bit easier to take the discussion where it needs to go at a later point from a more reduced format than it would be if we scrapped a large chunk of the mechanics, as well as not wanting to devalue the hard work people have put into gaining Bond in the current system.

That said, there are a couple points I do agree with from what Yuki has brought forward that can be implemented easily and not overly affect the rebalancing of Bond at a later point if need be, so I would propose the following.
-Unnatural TMs/TRs teachable by default (so long as you have the TM/TR, i.e. not from the Calendar)
-Move Relearner available by default
-Levels available per trainer per week in the Daycare increased to 4

This would help to alleviate the RP entry barrier without bringing us too much closer to shop simulator, and would allow for some mechanics to remain as Bond rewards where they feel more earned and prevent us from straying too far awy from FB's roots at the moment.

Enigma does also bring up a good point, one I had planned to put forward a little later on discussion but can be talked about now that the put forward absolute strictest scenario for Bond rewards has been basically unanimously shot down as I expected. Moving Bond RP rewards to a lower minimum. I would be fine with this reducing to 150 words. 250 has always been an awkward number for those who prefer shorter, more concise RP, so this wouldn't be an issue in my eyes at all.

Similarly, we do also need to talk about what qualifies as interaction with the Pokemon for Bond from RP, as at the moment it is extremely vague, so opinions on what everyone considers fine there would be appreciated, as my thoughts on the matter are basically "did the Pokemon actually do something?", but even that is more than a little too vague.

Once we have some responses on all of this I'll get a writeup put here of changes to the OP as discussed thus far.

It's a start. I think part of the issue with Bond was always that it arbitrarily locked so much stuff.

0: Your Pokemon is neutral toward you. Frustration is at its maximum power.
10: Your Pokemon can utilize the Move Relearner. Happiness evolutions can occur at this stage.
15: Your Pokemon can utilize any TM - even those outside its species limitations. The Pokemon can learn custom move Gummi Bomb OR an EM/MT move of choice.
20: The Pokemon can learn custom move Guardian Terrain OR an Advanced/Shadow move of choice.* Natural Advanced moves can now be learned by this Pokemon at the MT.
30: MAXIMUM. Daycare levels earned for this Pokemon are doubled. This Pokemon will earn a special aura for being max Bond. Pokemon at both max level and max Bond learn custom move Defensive Shield OR one Advanced/Shadow move* & one EM/MT move. Return is at maximum power.

becomes

0: Your Pokemon is neutral toward you. Frustration is at its maximum power.
10: Happiness evolutions can occur at this stage.
15: The Pokemon can learn custom move Gummi Bomb OR an EM/MT move of choice.
20: The Pokemon can learn custom move Guardian Terrain OR an Advanced/Shadow move of choice.* Natural Advanced moves can now be learned by this Pokemon at the MT.
30: MAXIMUM. This Pokemon will earn a special aura for being max Bond. Pokemon at both max level and max Bond learn custom move Defensive Shield OR one Advanced/Shadow move* & one EM/MT move. Return is at maximum power.

At this point maybe the total could be brought down. At the very least, I think the 15 band can be brought down to merge with 10.

[Sneaze]

Yeah I'll write it out in full later but the 10/15 split was already slightly arbitrary and can be combined.

[myahoo]

I'm down with the current proposed changes to Bond (the unnatural TM/TRs teachable by default so long as you have(/can buy?) the TM/TR, Move Relearner available by default, 4 levels per account per week at Daycare), though I will say when I first read the latest posts, I was hit with a moment of "wait, didn't we agree to drop it down to 20?" |D

And, on second thought, why couldn't we just drop it to 20? So, it'd look like:

0: Your Pokemon is neutral toward you. Frustration is at its maximum power.
5: The Pokemon can learn the Custom Move Gummi Bomb.
10: Happiness evolution can occur at this stage.
15: The Pokemon can learn the Custom Move Guardian Terrain.
20: MAXIMUM. This Pokemon can have a special aura for being max Bond. Pokemon at max level and max Bond can learn the Custom Move Defensive Shield. Return is at maximum power.

...with unnatural Advanced Moves and Shadow moves purchasable at the Move Tutor, like MM suggested.

[Ironthunder]

I'd say if we use myahoo's system, we need something else on 10. Happiness evo is all well and good, but there's like fifteen lines that give a flying fuck about that and for most lines, it's just a hollow threshold for being halfway there. Maybe bodge on the EM/MT that was an alternative to gummi bomb? Also, when it says "can learn CM Gummi Bomb/Guardian Terrain/Defensive Shield", is that automatic or does that require a trip to MT? Wording implies it's learnt elsewhere and the threshold merely makes it possible, when in reality it should probably be automatic.

[myahoo]

Honestly, I only split the Gummi Bomb/Happiness evo because...I dunno, I felt like having the first level be Happiness evo plus Gummi Bomb was weird?

But, yeah, prolly a better idea to just put Gummi Bomb and Happiness evo together.

0: Your Pokemon is neutral toward you. Frustration is at its maximum power.
10: Happiness evolution can occur at this stage. The Pokemon learns the Custom Move Gummi Bomb.
15: The Pokemon learns the Custom Move Guardian Terrain.
20: MAXIMUM. This Pokemon can have a special aura for being max Bond. Pokemon at max level and max Bond learns the Custom Move Defensive Shield. Return is at maximum power.

And I just copied the "can learn" phrase from your post, but, realistically, should probably have just made the adjustment anyway.

[Gemini Spark]

Bond: Seems good to make things simpler, and I'm all for just automaxing those who have higher than 30 Bond. Would also like to remind people that Gummi stashes are a thing, so reducing the max further than 30 may result in someone with a ton of Mysterious Gummis just using 2-4 of them to auto-max lots of Pokemons' Bond.

Bond Tracking: So this just means less linking is required in the Bonding Retreat, right? If so, I'd be for that.

Bond as RP Rewards: I'm not a fan of tracking longer RP posts just so more Pokemon can gain Bond, it really does go against the whole "less policing" idea. Also against rewarding Bond at the end of adventures, it only makes players more likely to pester their updaters, not less.

Clarity: I had no idea getting Pokemon KO'd resulted in a reduction in Clarity, but yeah, better to get rid of that as a mechanic. Also shortening the lowest Clarity to -20 sounds good to me.

Shadow Moves: Shadownium-Z sounds like a good Z-Crystal name, with Soulstained Penumbra or Soulstained Oblivion being good Z-Move names. Meanwhile, either Max Shadowsquall or Max Shadowfall would work for Shadow Dynamax moves.

[Missingno. Master]

Unnatural Calendar TMs/TRs; I for one would have no problem with unnatural Calendar TMs and TRs having the same requirement as unnatural TMs elsewhere in FB, personally.

Maximum Bond level- I feel like 30 is best. Any higher can be too daunting, any lower seems too easy.

Less linking for Bond tracking- I can get behind that. I'm pretty good about keeping up to date on my Bond, but if I have a boatload of birthday presents confirmed all at once, damn if it isn't a little daunting.

Soulstained Oblivion- Oooooh, I like that!

[Lil'twick]

Alright, I'm going to get my personal thoughts in before a more official stance gets said.

Bond- I am strongly against lowering it to below 30, solely for the point GS has brought up. A lot of people have a massive amount of Gummi stashes built up, and lowering it beyond 30 makes it so a lot of people can just instantly max out their bond. As a side effect, I feel like this could heavily affect the economy in a negative way, as the demand for gummis would SKYROCKET, so people who don't care about bond will just make a ton of bank.

Self-tracking- I am fully for this. The less linking the better as I say. If people are abusing the system though, I feel the retreat will need to be reimplemented as linked and confirmed for bond. I would be fine just having the retreat as a more record-keeping thread for members though, for people who want to keep track somewhere.

Additional bond per word count- Hi, one of those people who see the six bond farm and am not a huge fan. While this isn't exactly the system I want for it, I feel there does need to be more interaction than just saying a name and making a gesture. I rather not force people to make a 750 word post to get bond for everyone, but at least a sentence worth of true interaction would satisfy me.

Clarity- I am fully on board with the proposed changes. I do want to have the Shadow Ball added to the Department Store at the same price tier as the Luxury Ball. Something integral to a mechanic should be readily available.

Shadow Moves- I am hard staying on Soulstained Penumbra. All Z-Moves have super over-the-top ways to convey the type (Gigavolt Havor and Inferno Overdrive are big examples), and Penumbra is an over-the-top way of saying Shadow. Soulstained Oblivion is nice, but it doesn't really fit into the word line of Shadow. Trying to keep with Z-Move naming conventions. While I feel Shadium-Z rolls off the tongue better, Shadownium-Z does follow convention better.

Max Shadowsquall is awesome and I love it to death. That is all.

[Sneaze]

Alright so here is a running writeup of everything having taken what everyone has brought forward into account.

Bond

Reducing requirements to allow for easier access to evolution and movepool growth. At this time this is just a squishing of stages.

0: Your Pokemon is neutral toward you. Frustration is at its maximum power.
10: Happiness evolutions can occur at this stage. The Pokemon can learn custom move Gummi Bomb AND an EM/MT move of choice.
20: The Pokemon can learn custom move Guardian Terrain AND an Advanced/Shadow move of choice.*
30: MAXIMUM. This Pokemon will earn a special aura for being max Bond. Pokemon can learn custom move Defensive Shield AND one Advanced/Shadow move* AND one EM/MT move. Return is at maximum power.

Move Relearner - Available automatically
Unnatural TMs - Available automatically
Natural & Unnatural Advanced Moves - Available automatically at the Move Tutor
Shadow Moves - Available automatically at the Move Tutor
Daycare - Levels per trainer per week increased from 2 to 4

Bond Tracking

Trainers are responsible for tracking their own Bond which can be done at the Bonding Retreat or directly in their Member Post. Disputes will be solved on a case by case basis.

Bond as RP Rewards

Potentially reduce words required to claim bond (to be discussed in upcoming discussion to be posted shortly).

Bond can be claimed so long as the Pokemon is being interacted with or ineracting with something. A part of the story, not a part of the scenery.

Clarity

Reducing from a system of 0 through -30 to 0 through -20 to better allow ease of transition to becoming a Shadow or for purification, with -20 now being the new point of a Pokemon closing their heart. This means that housing a Pokemon in a Shadow Ball would get you halfway to closing their heart.

KOs no longer being counted as a reduction in clarity.
- As of this time, farming getting your own Pokemon KO'd in raids is the best way to reduce clarity. This is both seen as abuse to the Pokemon by some members and is also not a consistent way to actually achieve the goal in a reasonable timeframe.

Adding sections to zones where clarity can be reduced in the same way that clarity can be gained by most RP areas. These will be areas written up by the ZAs to make sure they fit within their zones, and some amount of lore would need figured out to make sure this fits.
- This would help to replace KOs as being the best source of farming, and is being proposed as -2 clarity per qualifying RP post (same requirements as bond) within these areas, so at maximum you would need 10 posts to close a Pokemon's heart.

Shadow Moves

Item Shadownium-Z to be added, allowing use of a Shadow Z Move.

Shadow Z Move Soulstained Penumbra to be added!

Shadow Max Move Max Shadowsquall to be added!

Shadow Max Move Effect: BP scaling would be equivalent to Max Knuckle or Max Ooze due to Shadow attacks dealing super effective damage to all non-Shadow Pokemon. This move would set up Shadow Sky as a secondary effect.

Note that I agreeing with Leo on the name for the Z move as Beatdown just is a bit underselling.

I will leave this up for discussion for two more days for any glaring issues that might exist prior to implementation.

[Princess Ana]

Just to say that I helped with the proposals and I'm okay with the new revamped proposals basically completely.

[Median Dia]

Querry: For pokemon that got to the corresponding Bond tiers back when they were either/or for learned moves, can we claim the other one retroactively or will they be forever bound by the chains of the past?

[Sneaze]

Absolutely.

Also, getting rid of "if you own the TM/TR" at the request of calendar staff. This also applies for Gym Training.

[Ironthunder]

Looks fine.

[Zorchic]

Large quote, so spoilering:

Spoiler: show

Originally Posted by Sneaze

Alright so here is a running writeup of everything having taken what everyone has brought forward into account.

Note that I agreeing with Leo on the name for the Z move as Beatdown just is a bit underselling.

I will leave this up for discussion for two more days for any glaring issues that might exist prior to implementation.

No, leave everything as it is, I do not like change Just kidding. For real, I'm fine with these proposed changes and don't have any changes to suggest.

Originally Posted by Sneaze

Unnatural TMs - Available automatically

Sorry if this is a little nitpicky, but just to be clear, this includes TRs, too, right?

Originally Posted by Sneaze

Shadow Moves - Available automatically at the Move Tutor

Is this for all Pokémon or only for Shadow Pokémon?

Originally Posted by Sneaze

Daycare - Levels per trainer per week increased from 2 to 4

With this, would we be allowed to drop off two Pokémon at the Daycare and assign 3 levels to one Pokémon and 1 level to the other? Or would levels only be allowed to be split evenly for two Pokémon?

[Sneaze]

Originally Posted by Zorchic

Large quote, so spoilering:
No, leave everything as it is, I do not like change Just kidding. For real, I'm fine with these proposed changes and don't have any changes to suggest.
Sorry if this is a little nitpicky, but just to be clear, this includes TRs, too, right?
Is this for all Pokémon or only for Shadow Pokémon?
With this, would we be allowed to drop off two Pokémon at the Daycare and assign 3 levels to one Pokémon and 1 level to the other? Or would levels only be allowed to be split evenly for two Pokémon?

Yes, includes TRs too.

All Pokemon.

You can assign however you want, even four mon for one level each.

[Ironthunder]

My main question here is: How are we adapting current Bond scores to the new system? Is it just a flat carryover or is it going to be scaled in some way?

[Sneaze]

Flat carryover. Scaling would just be more work for people which really defeats the point.

[myahoo]

Looks fine to me.

[Missingno. Master]

Alright, I'm trying to get the gist of everything here that applies to the Move Tutor, because I'd like to edit the relevant changes in. Right now, what I'm getting from this is, Shadow moves, Move Relearner services, and natural Advanced Moves are all good to go without any Bond required. A few questions, however, remain.

• What of unnatural Advanced Moves? Are they still only available as Bond rewards or can they be paid for with a little extra like with regular MT moves?
• Shadow moves, what's the price gonna be for those?
• Let's Go moves- we agreed on them being allowed to be taught unnaturally, I believe? I think this one's a yes, I just want to make sure.
• Did I miss anything else?

[Sneaze]

Stuck to Bond for the moment.

$500, same as everything else.

These were agreed on for unnatural. If we want to include other unnatural AMs with I see no issue with it.