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Old 11-07-2017, 11:24 AM   #1
Jerichi
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Graveler ASB Revamp: Changing the Effectiveness Scale

So somehow during a relatively unrelated discussion, the idea of bumping the SE scale to x1.5/x2 (and presumably x.5/x.75) came up. I tried to push a change to the SE scale on more than one occasion but was always met with resistance, but now that we're shaking things up this seems to be a popular idea again.

Do you want to see the SE standard moved down from x2/x3? If so, why? If not, why not?
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Old 11-07-2017, 11:26 AM   #2
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yes

i want to become asbcended

also

it'll provided actual room for matches to go beyond thunderbolt x2

mons with double weaknesses will have more room to do stuff

i can finally sig my alola egg with the dragon dong i always wanted

and actually not get oneshot by signal beam

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Old 11-07-2017, 11:27 AM   #3
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Shift it down. We should probably move away from the average SE matchup taking roughly three rounds, and it'd help out shit like Parasect and Shiinotic, which are great mons that are crippled by mediocre typing and couldn't pop out in most battles because they'd just get nuked into critical in the space of a round. Also it'd help all these shiny, newly rewritten defensive moves see some actual use rather than just sit in a corner gathering dust for all eternity like they tended to before.
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Old 11-07-2017, 11:33 AM   #4
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Yes, if only to make typespam less all-encompassing as an offensive strategy.
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Old 11-07-2017, 11:35 AM   #5
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I suggested the shift to 1.5x/2x SE scale in my original proposal, and I stand by that.

Right now, and for quite a long time, SE spam has entirely dominated the ASB meta. It makes play one-dimensional, in that it restricts creative play and limits the usefulness of 'mon with a lot of weaknesses/3x weaknesses. I believe that shifting the SE scale down would effectively lengthen SE dominated matches while keeping more neutral matchups relatively the same in terms of time commitment, giving players more time to take advantage of defensive options, stall mechanics, etc. We should be doing everything we can to promote creativity and ingenuity in battles, as this is what is most interesting to players.
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Old 11-07-2017, 11:37 AM   #6
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While I see the benefit of shifting it down, there is already a problem in ASB of matches not getting finished. I'm worried that by increasing the length of matches, we will only increase that problem. That being said, I don't think it will be too bad if we actually effectively implement DQ rules better than we have in the past. Just something to think about.
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Old 11-07-2017, 11:58 AM   #7
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Has there been an idea discussed along the lines of "if a Pokemon is hit by the same type of energy multiple times in a row, the effectiveness multiplier will decrease incrementally?"

Like, say, regular SE is x2, but if a Pidgey gets hit with two Electric attacks in a row, the second one does x1.8, and the third does 1.6, but if pidgey gets hit with two electrics, and then other attacks, the effectiveness would go back to x2 or at least up one stage.
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Old 11-07-2017, 12:03 PM   #8
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I feel like that doesn't really make any sense. Like if anything, it makes more sense to take more damage as you lose stamina. You're weaker, so you're not able to defend as well as you could when you had full health. But that's obviously extremely broken so we don't do it.
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Old 11-07-2017, 12:06 PM   #9
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Please shift it down. There are so many Pokemon out there that could be used if type spam wouldn't end them in a round or two. This would also hopefully lead to more interesting orders and reffing in a match as its no longer just Ice Beam and Thunderbolt type attacks being thrown back and forth.
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Old 11-07-2017, 09:52 PM   #10
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I feel like that doesn't really make any sense. Like if anything, it makes more sense to take more damage as you lose stamina. You're weaker, so you're not able to defend as well as you could when you had full health. But that's obviously extremely broken so we don't do it.
I was thinking more of adaptability--like, if you're getting hit with the same energy over and over again, you'd adapt to it and be able to mitigate it. Maybe just the same move instead of the same energy type--so that the Electric-type energy user in my first example would have to alternate Electric moves in their arsenal as opposed to spamming Discharge or Thunderbolt.
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Old 11-07-2017, 10:33 PM   #11
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That's an interesting idea but it both deviates from normal Pokémon mechanics pretty hard and would be a pain to ref. I'd rather just adjust multipliers instead of making kills harder to secure.

Also exhaustion is supposed to mitigate some of that but
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Old 11-07-2017, 11:04 PM   #12
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Additionally it does kinda shut down hard the battling strategy of wearing your opponent out before blasting them while they don't have any more defensive options at their disposal.
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Old 11-08-2017, 05:34 PM   #13
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Personally, I see absolutely no reason to implement this along with everything else on anything more than a trial run. And even a trial run I think should wait until the rest of new!ASB is settled and stable.

Whether or not you believe the HO Meta of ASB is a problem (Personally I think it's far from ideal but also not nearly the issue people make it out to be) or that we can fix it without massive, fundamental changes to ASB itself (I personally think we can't), I'm not really excited about the prospect of making ASB Matches take even longer than they already do, especially right now. Remember, we just framed all our progression around how long a battle takes now. Why would we do something like this that might not even have the desired effect at a time when we'll really want ASB up and moving at a good clip after the revamp is put into place? Making an average 5 round matchup take more like 8 rounds really doesn't behoove us at this time.
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Old 11-08-2017, 07:12 PM   #14
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I disagree with the above statement, largely because progression is going to be sped up quite a lot due to players acquiring KO's when they lose as well as when they win. I'd also argue that longer matches have room to be a lot more interesting than the shorter, straightforward typespam matches that we're seeing right now. They'd certainly hold my interest more, if anything. Additionally, if the speed of progression is your main concern, we could very easily just shift the numbers around as needed to compensate; they aren't set in stone, and it isn't hard.

At the end of the day, I'd rather have a wider window of time to execute interesting strategies than I would have faster paced matches, and that's why I'm in the camp of shifting down the SE scale.

I also feel that we should absolutely ship this with the current reworks. We should test it in the new system a few times to see how it feels, review it, and make a final decision after doing so.
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Old 11-08-2017, 08:18 PM   #15
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The problem with that is, we can't crunch numbers when we don't know how it will change things. I spitballed 8 rounds instead of 5 as an average but that's not founded on anything solid. It could easily be as much as double what we have now.

Honestly ASB is only "straightforward" at your more basic levels of play. You look at the more experienced battlers and their matches aren't "Typespam x2" over and over. That's just common because it's easy. If we weaken the SE scale, a new easy thing will come up and take the low level matches by storm. That's just how these sorts of games work. On the showdown ladder you'll see the same half dozen teams over and over and over again from like 1200 to 1600. Not because they're broken, but because it's easy to use them. The way ASB is now, typespam turrets are pretty much just like that. There's nothing fundamentally broken about them. They're just easy to use and as such super common, and because they're so common people are disdainful of them. If you lower the scale (at 1.5x the standard 2 SE Ice Beams does less than 2HB) the new easy strategy is gonna be abuse the everloving fuck out healing moves. Softboiled literally heals back more than a super effective attack with this system. And we've already decided we're going to make it so healing moves can be used more than once with diminishing returns. Which, by the way, should help provide alternatives to typespam as is. There's no rush here- this isn't the great depression when FDR just threw a bunch of shit at the wall hoping something would stick. Nobody's starving or dying over this. We can try things one at a time and see if they give us the result we like.

Not to mention, this sort of move centralizes the offensive meta around 'mon that have the widest move oceans even more strongly. Why do we want to make Snorlax and its 1800 offtypes better? Those kind of mons are the only offensive mons that arent hurt by this. There's absolutely no good reason to decrease the viability of vast swaths of mon in favor of tanky healers and the nidomonarchs/clefables/snorlaxes of the world. There's nothing "straightforward" or "uninteresting" about ASB as it stands right now. It's biggest problem is how goddamn slow it is. So slowing it down to cater to mon with 4x weaknesses and the few people who are here even though the battles apparently bore them seems really silly to me.

When we kick ASB back into gear, we need to have a lively, moving game to attract more players. Waiting some 6 months to get a 2v2 done isn't going to help ASB grow.
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Old 11-08-2017, 08:54 PM   #16
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Firstly, the comment "Waiting some 6 months to get a 2v2 done isn't going to help ASB grow." is very strawmanny/exaggerates the effects of shifting down the SE damage scale to the degree that we've suggested. Onto the next comment I want to address:

Quote:
"Not to mention, this sort of move centralizes the offensive meta around 'mon that have the widest move oceans even more strongly. Why do we want to make Snorlax and its 1800 offtypes better?"
No, it doesn't. If anything, 'mon like Snorlax are going to be picking up kills at a slower rate than which they would otherwise, burning more energy to accomplish what they could have more efficiently done anyways. Bringing down the SE scale gives you a lot more room to stall out/defend against things that have 3/4 offensive SE offtype on you in the first place. Sure, you can't burn them down as quickly as you used to be able to, but you also have room to utilize other mechanics, exhaustion being a major one, without making a huge sacrifice by in turn not dealing enough damage to keep up with them. IMO this kind of change would increase the viability of stall options.

As for the healing change, I admittedly wasn't aware of it, but at the same time I'm not entirely sure how I feel about that in the first place, and considering you're still burning energy/tiring yourself to purely negate/undo damage, you aren't actually doing much to "win" as much as you are delaying a KO. Especially when something like Snorlax/Nido/etc as it is now, can just pick another type and wreck you again with it. From my point of view, it would only serve to give you more room to deal with them.

Quote:
"There's nothing "straightforward" or "uninteresting" about ASB as it stands right now."
This is your opinion, and I respect it, but I disagree wholeheartedly. To me, and I know I'm repeating myself, SE moves being as strong as they are greatly diminishes the viability of non-HO strategies. I have personally felt that matches in ASB can get repetitive due to this, which in turn has diminished my interest in sticking around for long periods of time. I'm not saying everyone is going to feel this way, but as a player, this has been my experience.

I think this is an interesting idea that is completely worth exploring and testing, rather than completely dismissing.
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Old 11-08-2017, 09:39 PM   #17
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I don't think saying "now isn't the time" is dismissal. For the moment, perhaps, but I'm in no way dismissing it in the long run. I'm not sure I'll be a major advocate for it later on, but I'd definitely be more open to it once we've tested the waters on things we're already sure we should and will change.
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Old 11-08-2017, 09:44 PM   #18
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I think I expressed some similar concerns to Snorby in Discord when this topic came up, and while I am interested to see that there is some desire to see this change made, I'd rather not add another change on top of the numerous changes we're making with the revamp. I'd prefer to put a pin in this topic and reassess other ways to mitigate some of the damage HO does before going to this measure.

That said, I would entertain the idea of somehow moving down the x4 effectiveness level, but that might also be something for a later date.
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Old 11-08-2017, 10:18 PM   #19
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So I've stayed largely out of this discussion because I was pretty torn on it for a while, to be honest. But, end of the day I'm really with Snorby on this one. Shifting the scale even smaller than it already has been is just encouraging more heavy centralization of those Pokemon that have move oceans because then you'll frankly NEED them to get the more efficient KOs. Atop of that, we also have the issue of how we treat resistances and where that comes into play as a result. Honesty I think we can all agree that resistances getting bumped up proportionally would just be... bad. Like, regularly discouraging of squadding efficiently for type matchups bad. While it means more usability of typed status moves and such, it also means that power loss becomes less of a thing for a lot of moves unless we're talking the heaviest of hitters in each type, which just... no. It doesn't discourage turreting it promotes it. This is only really aided by the fact that needing more energy for damage means less to use for strategic moves and it just overcentralizes the game to HO again.

And side note, I wholly encourage people who think stall doesn't work to actually, Iunno, learn to stall. It works frankly great if you put some practice into it.
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Old 11-09-2017, 05:12 AM   #20
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I'd rather limit movepools as a solution to the all encompassing typespam, tbh. Both still mean that having a straight up type advantage (Charmander vs Paras etc) is still a big advantage like it should be - and that strategic play to get yourself into those kind of match-ups is still well rewarded - whilst nerfing the problem that so many mon have enough access to offtype to make it still the optimum strategy even if effectiveness is reduced.

The issue isn't that electric types can easily typespam Mantine to death. The issue is that so many non-electric types can easily typespam Mantine to death.
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Old 11-09-2017, 08:32 AM   #21
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Movepool limitations might be the worst suggestion ever. Doesn't even sound fun.
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Old 11-09-2017, 08:50 AM   #22
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We are most definitely not doing movepool restrictions. Sorry, Cepty.
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Old 11-09-2017, 09:05 AM   #23
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I mean, as long as whatever you end up doing fixes the "these pokemon are crap because everyone and their mother gets enough offtype to typespam you into oblivion" without overly nerfing the legitimate "you're double weak to my STAB and are probably boned", I'm happy.

I'd be wary of jumping on a "let's reduce type effectiveness" bandwagon because if you've engineered yourself a good match-up by solid strategic play then you deserve that advantage. The obvious out to that would be to reduce offtype energy, but that runs the risk of reducing interesting strategies even more - the less offtype people have, the less inclined they're gonna be to use it on fun utility moves when they could conserve it for typespam. One possible solution would be to say that non-STAB attacks only do 2/3's damage (so STAB attacks do 1.5x the damage of non-STAB attacks, like ingame, but reducing the power of non-STAB rather than boosting STAB). Still enough that it's worth using for SE and for added bonuses (Charge Beams SpAtk up, etc) but reduces the issue of things like Clefairy being able to typespam turret viably against every mon under the sun, and means people are more likely to consider using their limited offtype energy for other things.
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Old 11-09-2017, 09:15 AM   #24
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The honest reality is that the game of Pokémon in any form is not particularly kind to most Pokémon with x4 weaknesses. We'd have to make a pretty significant alteration to the game as a whole to make them suck less, and changing the effectiveness scale would be one.

But limited movepools is not only a huge bitch to manage, it A) completely fucks with the meta, B) is going to encourage people to just buy coverage moves instead of investing in defense or strategy (remember, we generally want to do the opposite), and C) make it a confusing cluster for anyone who wants to try to learn ASB from scratch.

Also I am not sure I mentioned this last time this topic was brought up but I think it's important so I'll bring it up again. Muyo informed me that we actually have precedence for this system. Way back in the BMG days, Mozz introduced this system to curb the handful of monsters (your Gengars and T-Tars and Clefables) that were dominating the game, and it was such a mess and unfun that it lasted like two months before he went back to the full moveset access. If it didn't work so hot back then when you only had upper limits of 50 moves (and this was like Clefable and only Clefable who could claim this) or so to deal with, I cannot imagine that it'll be much better now when you'd have to make decisions between 20 of your 60 moves on every shitmon.

I, too, am open to suggestions to make x4ers more viable, but most of them are probably going to be huge shifts in the meta that we don't need to add on top of the reshuffling we're already doing.
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Old 11-09-2017, 09:20 AM   #25
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Fair enough. Thanks for taking the time to respond more than "your idea is bad and you should feel bad", genuinely much appreciated.

How about the possibility of doing an inverse version of what the game does with STAB moves; non-STAB attacks do only 2/3's damage or something? Still viable when SE or when they have a useful added effect (status, stat boost) while reducing the likes of Clefairy's ability to typespam turret their way past everything purely by virtue of having access to every type under the sun. Also might make people more inclined to use their offtype energy for more interesting utility moves.
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