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Old 05-24-2017, 04:28 PM   #1
Marion Ette
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Omanyte Removing Coins from FB

After reviewing the Economy Revamp thread and listening to community opinions over the past month or so, it seems inevitable that the removal of coins as a system of currency should be the next step for us. The disparity between rich and poor, often the result of pure luck rather than effort (and due to lack of capping reward amounts in the early days of its inception - which older members got to benefit from while newer ones had to cope with lower payouts), is something the community wants to move away from. We may go coinless, or the whispers of a token currency in Discord may materialize to a more merit-based reward system for luxury items; either way, the old currency has got to go.

How we move away from this is another matter, and I wanted to make a specific thread for this so that those not following the Economy Revamp thread can get up to speed, review the ideas proposed, and we can have a final weigh-in as we work out this important step in FB's development.

To provide a basic run-down of the possible ways we will go about this proposed coin wipe, here's a list with links to relevant posts:


1) PURE RESET: All balances are reset, and no reimbursement is given.

2) LIMITED/SHARED REIMBURSEMENT: A "clearance sale" allows members a final opportunity to spend their coins before the wipe, with a maximum spending limit. Overages are donated to members who do not hit the maximum so that they can afford what they want. Leftovers are converted and possibly distributed in some form of contest.

3) SINGLE POKEMON/PACKAGE REIMBURSEMENT: Everyone with a coin balance above 0 gets to pick ONE Pokemon that was on offer at the CFP. Those who do not want a Pokemon get a prize pack made up of CfP items. Balances are then wiped.

4) FULL REIMBURSEMENT: Members are allowed to spend the full amount of currency they have obtained in the CfP for a final "clearance sale". No limits are placed on spending. (This idea was discussed more in Discord than the thread, so I don't have a lot to link to for this idea - but this is the basic gist).


Some hybrid of these methods, or a potential new method, could be discussed as well.

ADDITIONALLY, if a full or partial reimbursement is decided upon (particularly a full one), we need to decide whether those who spent their money on Secret Bases or TCG (the former of which has been recently declared as fully Free RP, while the latter does not have strong support for returning at this time) will be allowed to receive refunds for their purchases and use those refunds in the clearance sale.

This is something we would like to move forward on as soon as possible, so your thoughts and feedback are, as always, very much appreciated!

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Old 05-24-2017, 04:48 PM   #2
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I vote for option 3, but then, it's the best deal for me.
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Old 05-24-2017, 04:53 PM   #3
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I'm of the support for either a shared reimbursement or a package reimbursement.

While the single pokemon from the CFP is an interesting idea, we should review what those pokemon are.

Porygon, Beldum, Castform: This is what's listed in the records. We've also had Spiritomb and Lapras for sale. I'm kinda on the fence about Pory and Beldum, but the other three are okay.

Fossil pokemon: I'm not so keen on this option being available.

Eevee: NO. We do NOT need more of these repulsive examples of vermin in the game.

I feel a prize pack's a good option. You'd be surprised what 30k coins can get you in terms of movesets with today's prices.
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Old 05-24-2017, 05:00 PM   #4
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I'm going to have to disagree with Raves. I see no problem with Eevee being allowed if we do an Option 3 and allow people to pick out one Pokémon. "Oversaturation" is an arbitrary reason to disallow people to select a traditional CfP Pokémon.
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Old 05-24-2017, 05:02 PM   #5
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Being the one who brought option 2 to light in the first place, naturally that's something I think is worth considering, but that being said, I like option 3 as well. Question- would that include every single Pokémon CfP has ever had for sale? If so, we'd also have Riolu and Mienfoo in the mix there, because of that short-lived idea of rotating random Pokémon prizes in and out on a monthly basis.
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Old 05-24-2017, 05:23 PM   #6
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Before I weigh in I'd like to know what the CfP pack alternative would be to the CfP Pokémon.
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Old 05-24-2017, 06:26 PM   #7
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i like option 3
*frieghya glares at raves*
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Old 05-24-2017, 07:11 PM   #8
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My vote's for option 3 also, but I'll be ok with options 2 or 4, bad off.

Just not option 1 plz ;-;
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Old 05-24-2017, 07:44 PM   #9
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In order, starting with the highest preference, I would go with 3, 4, 2, then 1.
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Old 05-24-2017, 08:09 PM   #10
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I'm gonna finally chime in. Been mostly ignoring development stuff in favor of a 'whatever happens, happens' approach. This isn't gonna win me any fans around here, and is probably going to be pretty contentious, but uh...

I really do not like Option 3. I think it's somewhat lazy, and it spits in the face of roleplaying by just giving pretty much everyone a free Pokemon.

The casino was bullshit to begin with, as was the coin system. It worked OK in the Pokemon games, but it doesn't translate particularly well in roleplaying, especially in a game like FB - Casino just handing out especially rare 'mon for having a bunch of coins? I mean, yeah, you had Porygon in Gen I, but that was in a totally different context, too.

But now we are talking about rectifying this with an apology by giving everyone a free Pokemon. And OF COURSE everyone is going to say they want option 3, because they're going to get a free Pokemon out of it. And I think that's just lazy and a bit silly.

An alternative proposal; if you *must* give out free Pokemon, how about instead a voucher for an additional free Pokemon to adopt from the adoption center next time the user is eligible to adopt, or to be used whenever the player wants to use it? They could hang onto it for as long as they like. It helps clear out the AC more, too.
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Old 05-24-2017, 09:20 PM   #11
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I'm not a fan of option 3, or even 2 for that matter. My reasoning is basically due to me believing that we don't owe new members anything just because they weren't around when the system was in a more abusable state. Take the idea to the extreme and you could argue compensating everyone who missed out on everything ever. I think it's self-evident why that hyperbole would be a terrible idea, and I believe it sufficiently illustrates the point I'm trying to make in regards to those options. We played a different kind of FB back then and it has been put behind us. No need to apologize.

Personally, I'd rather go with option 4, as it is the option that fully acknowledges those who stuck the longest, regardless of whoever thinks of it as "dirty" money, though if that route is too offensive for the newer members then I've no qualms with going for a full coin wipe either, which would put everyone, old and new alike, on a more even ground without having to give away unnecessary rewards.

(Now watch me become a hypocrite and reap full benefits of options 2 and 3 if either gets selected.)
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Old 05-24-2017, 11:19 PM   #12
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consider me biased
but i see it not as "we owe new members things cus the old system was crap."
since
A: EVERYONE gets a pokemon
B: new members need more pokemon anyway. I mean, just compare my amount of pokemon to Kieth's
C: if everyone gets it, whats the problem with free pokemon?
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Old 05-24-2017, 11:58 PM   #13
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Alright so I was going to make a bit of a big deal here and tell you all that you're all wrong but before I even go into that... does anybody here actually know the account balances for all members? For whatever reason the Exchange is one of the things Tess didn't update as promised with a record of everyone's balances so it's really not easy to take a quick look and see who has a mountain, let alone how high the peaks reach.

THAT SAID AND MOVING SWIFTLY ONTO MY ACTUAL POINT.

YOU'RE ALL WRONG AND THIS CONVERSATION GAVE ME CANCER.

At the end of the day we have to acknowledge that the system WAS super abusable but we also have to recognize that people should be awarded accordingly based on what they have racked up. There's literally no point in doing a wipe and allowing those who bought hilarious things with coins to keep them while wiping the stockpiles of those who didn't go on spending sprees. Unfortunately none of the proposed systems really helps to come to an actual middle ground, as they all give a big middle finger to either those with a shitload of coins or those with basically none.

So here's what I propose.

Compile all the coin balances. Then, give out vouchers in a total dependant on the amount of coins that person had left. Have the voucher to coin ratio be a scale (1 voucher if 100 coins, 2 vouchers if 300 coins, 3 vouchers if 600 coins, 4 vouchers if 1,000 coins, etc) and make sure to round the coins DOWN if they don't meet the next voucher amount. This way everyone gets something, and while those that stockpiled will get more, they won't get an ABSOLUTE HILARIOUS AMOUNT MORE. Then, once vouchers are assigned and we know what kind of numbers we're looking at, a voucher store can be made temporarily to spend them. Pick your items and get out, be done with coins forever.

I think this system would best accommodate all the different groups on this issue, and by making the shop after the voucher numbers per person are determined, we can make sure things are pretty fair.
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Old 05-25-2017, 12:01 AM   #14
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My vote would be for option 4. Give people with coins a last chance to spend all of them and bring back more or less everything Coins for Prizes has ever offered so they can get something they may have wanted but decided to pass on in order to save up. Option 2 is a fair shout as well if people would rather have that.

My main issue with Number 3 is that it kind of goes against everything the new FB is trying to set up. You want new cool interesting Pokemon? RP for it. That, from what I've seen, is what the moderators are trying to encourage and what the community wants. In that case, we really shouldn't be giving away free Pokemon. Even if it's only for people with a coin balance greater than zero, that's literally everyone who hasn't joined within the past two months or so. I haven't even completed a full adventure yet (mainly due to inactivity because of school but sshh) and I'd be able to cash in on this. Furthermore, most of the Pokemon at Coins for Prizes are really really cool Pokemon. I know that it's a single player RP in terms of zones and the lack of competitiveness, but I don't think I'm the only one who likes the feeling of coming across something rare, powerful, or different. I would hate to see Fossil Pokemon or rare stuff like Porygon lose their luster because a ton of people grabbed them from this giveaway. These things are now obtainable in zones theoretically thanks to the introduction of the Memakyu, so let people who really want them head into a zone and have an adventure for one.

I know this is a one time thing so I'm not going to get too up in arms over it since it would actually benefit me and Fossil Pokemon are awesome, but I don't know, I just want to chime in because it would leave a weird taste in my mouth.

Edit: I also like Sneaze's plan a lot.
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Old 05-25-2017, 12:14 AM   #15
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Old 05-25-2017, 12:30 AM   #16
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The main reason I like option three is that it is the simplest option for the mods and members without just saying "fuck it" and wiping things, which has some people pretty vehemently opposed to it.

No need to keep track of the actual balance beyond the fact that a balance exists, no having to check peoples' math and get their accurate balance. Just "you have a balance, pick from option A: 1 Pokemon from this list or option B: this pack containing X amount of things", and go on your merry way.

Yes, some people are getting more than they had coins for, and some are getting less, but it is a lot less work. While I'm bothered by straight up free Pokemon, I'm a lot less bothered by a one time option of a single Pokemon from a list ('rare' Pokemon or not) than I am by a regular one like the old Egg House.

Vouchers might be a fairer option, but it would also require compiling the actual balances, creating the conversion rate, converting to vouchers, and then making voucher prices for everything. It's a lot of work. If people want to put the time and effort into making it happen, then go for it. But I personally see doing something like option three to means that we don't have to spend all that time and effort on this and can instead just get through it and then put said time and effort towards other things that need to be done.
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Old 05-25-2017, 12:34 AM   #17
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...I feel the statement "That seems like a lot of work" is spongebob mocking meme worthy, really. If the mods aren't willing to put in work to make sure things come out fair they shouldn't be mods. And I don't think that's an issue we would have wit the current mods.
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Old 05-25-2017, 12:40 AM   #18
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...I feel the statement "That seems like a lot of work" is spongebob mocking meme worthy, really. If the mods aren't willing to put in work to make sure things come out fair they shouldn't be mods. And I don't think that's an issue we would have wit the current mods.
My point is less that they wouldn't be willing to do the work, and more that I'd rather that the work go towards something like figuring out and implementing Happiness/IQ/etc, rather than coming up with this one off system. The main draw of three for me is that it would allow this to be finished quickly, with the least amount of time to set up, so we could move onto other things. Just wiping the coins entirely is honestly my top choice, to be frank. But it seems unlikely that people will go for it, so I'm going for what I see as the next best option.
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Old 05-25-2017, 01:11 AM   #19
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I wholeheartedly dislike the idea of giving out free Pokemon based on coins for the reasons Deo stated. We're trying to make RP the main method of getting Pokemon, right? Even without the nonsense of almost everyone in FB getting a free mon out of this, we already have had a huge influx of Pokemon lately between the egg hunt and the AC, and we really don't need any more of that imo.

At risk of making people grumpy I'm gonna advocate for either option 2 or option 1, though Sneaze's idea also seems fine. Frankly if we don't "owe" anything to the newer members (note despite me being one of the newest members I do not have a horse in this race as I have no coins so there's no bias here) because of a bullshit system old members got to abuse, we don't "owe" anything to the older members because of a bullshit system they got to abuse. Option 3 would just make the problem we have with getting large sums of Pokemon from outside of zones even worse, and Option 4 basically just rewards people for the luck-of-the-draw system they spent years abusing without really taking game balance into consideration. You're either gonna have people who have tens of thousands of coins swimming in prizes, or else you're gonna have people who have significant sums of coins (1K+) screwed over because the prices are set to make sure the people with ridiculous sums don't break the game. Options 1 and 2 both avoid these issues, as does Sneaze's option.

No matter what though, I have to voice my distaste at the concept of people nabbing Pokemon out of this shitty, shitty system. Not gonna bother regurgitating Deo's words, but restricting any option to items and only items seems to me by far the best option.
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Old 05-25-2017, 04:22 AM   #20
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Personally, all for option 1. There's no real way to do this fairly and in a way that isn't going to horrendously devalue things. If we say 'just items', then people are just going to stockpile TMs. Give the option of rare Pokemon, and everyone will obviously take that. Sometimes you have to go with the nuclear option.
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Old 05-25-2017, 04:48 AM   #21
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Like Snorby I have no horse in this race as I have no coins. I say we either just nuke the coins because as far as I am aware, you didn't exactly have to do anything for them outside of posting in threads and stuff? Understandable that those that have stockpiled them may feel cheated as some people bought some pretty nice stuff with it. Considering we are about to change everything over to generic currency, I think we should just establish a conversion rate. You would have to probably wait and have a look at how much things are going to cost and how many coins people have stockpiled, but I think this would be a fair way to do it as those that stockpiled will now have the money to purchase stuff in the new stores (when they arrive).

There is no point wasting a tonne of time and energy on this, that is better spent on the things that people are going to enjoy, not the things people are going to complain and spew salt about.

To summarise, establish a conversion rate, people with coins post in conversion thread to convert their coins into regular currency.
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Old 05-25-2017, 05:12 AM   #22
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The problem with a conversion rate is that it just makes PokéDollars Coins 2.0, with the same horrific imbalance between new and old members which -- like it or not -- is one of the things we're trying to get rid of.

We're trying, in ways, to start a new game, where everyone is on equal footing. That's why so many of the proposals divvy up coins, or give everyone the same prizes.

I'm a little disturbed by this sentiment of "fuck the newbies, got mine" I'm seeing. I know the oldbies suffered a lot under old management, and it's true, you don't OWE us anything, but we're all playing a game together. A non-competitive game. Does it really hurt you to share some of your fake coins with the less fortunate?

Honestly though, it really doesn't matter. I rescind my vote for option 3. I'm just a greedy n00b looking for a handout. I vote for a full wipe of coins, without cashout, nobody gets nothing. Clearly, they're a toxic currency. Have been from the beginning; will be until the end. Besides, why should I care that oldbies would lose out on all their coins? I only have 200. No big loss to me. That's our attitude right? That's how we're supposed to play Fizzy Bubbles? Fuck you, got mine.

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Old 05-25-2017, 05:17 AM   #23
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Options 2 and 3 more or less sound shitty for reasons pointed out by various members so far (Balmund particularly). I'm personally entirely fine with Option 1, but that's pretty unpopular.

The best compromise so far seems to be Sneaze's suggestion, although it raises the question of what exactly would be purchasable in said shop. I'm also curious as to exactly what kind of scale would be used (if it wasn't clear by what Sneaze said somehow, said scale would need to be sublinear).

Also, in response to a conversion rate

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The problem with a conversion rate is that it just makes PokéDollars Coins 2.0, with the same horrific imbalance between new and old members which -- like it out not -- is one of the things we're trying to get rid of.
This is well put; a direct conversion stands the risk of artificially inflating an already relatively well balanced currency.
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Old 05-25-2017, 05:20 AM   #24
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Because I was curious, I took a look at the coin balances, and most of the people with 500k+ coins have 1) moved to Serebii's FB, 2) have already blown their pile of coins on the stuff they wanted while the CfP was still in place and probably wouldn't care about how else they could use those coins, or 3) haven't shown up at all since the changes. And realistically, if the latter group of people were to come back at all, they would show up after any clearance sale has resolved and coins were no more, so it'd still be as if option 1 was implemented for them regardless of what option we pick here.

For me personally, as far as coins are concerned, I'm currently in a bit of an awkward spot. I would have enough coins to purchase one of the lower tier Pokemon (and I would have a good idea in mind of what I would buy if we went with option 4), but my preference lies somewhere in the upper tier price range for Pokemon and would benefit more from choosing option 3.

As far as option 2 is concerned...eh, I'd probably take part in it anyway if that's what we went with, but all the evolution items I would need for my current Pokemon I have anyway, so I'd mostly be investing in the future, and I've never really been much for TMs unless I felt there was a dang good reason for a certain Pokemon to have a particular TM taught to them. Sure I've taught TMs to my Pokemon for their birthdays or used special event TMs when they came up, but other than that I wasn't putting coins into buying a ton of them for my Pokemon. Yes, I was saving my coins for buying those precious CfP Pokemon, but part of that was because I didn't see TMs as a priority back then, and I still don't now.

Another thing on my mind is, knowing that any evolution items/TMs are going to be available in zone adventures, I feel like those items (as well as Mega Stones/Z Crystals) are what I could RP for instead of purchasing. Yes, I can RP for my most wanted Pokemon as well, but what if the zones don't have an ideal setting to look for my top want? Or maybe I do come across a Pokemon I really want, but it has a different personality than what I was thinking of. Suddenly, should I be successful in capturing that Pokemon, I feel shoehorned into giving that Pokemon the personality it had throughout the adventure instead of the personality I wanted to give it because then the updater isn't happy that I changed it!

"Well, you can talk with your updater about that beforehand!" Maaaybe? I'd rather not suggest what Pokemon the updater should provide, and once the Pokemon shows up, if that Pokemon has a different personality, that be a pretty awkward conversation with your updater. So, if there is an option to get a Pokemon with whatever personality I wanted, I would absolutely prefer that because that's a big part of what drew me to FB in the first place: people had characters/Pokemon with interesting personalities, some with personalities they created, some with personalities they didn't. I think the ideal team in the new FB should be a mix of those two, while having only one or the other is a problem. One side is the older FB, while the other is WF, and I don't think we want FB to be too much like either. So, while we should move towards RP being the way to get Pokemon, we shouldn't shy away from offering free Pokemon either, as long as it isn't on a regular basis like the Egg House was. Like other people said, this CfP clearance sale would be a one time thing, and it wouldn't be particularly game breaking, especially if we go with option 3. It only looks that way in the wake of the Adoption Center fire sale and gen 7 egg hunt; if neither of those things happened, I can see more people in support of some sort of clearance sale.

So that was a tangent. Long story short, option 2, if the spending limit is too low, is not my cup of tea, and option 1...I'm just going to reference all the opposition to a forced global reset. While this would be a smaller scale thing, the principle still applies: if you personally would rather not spend your coins and let them just fade away, or you have none to spend, that's fine, just don't make everyone else follow suit.

As for Sneaze's idea...yes, the mods could spend the time and effort into making a system that would work for one time before going away for good. Is that an efficient use of their time? Hardly. And I think all this worry about older players with millions of coins is mostly artificial since there's only a very few people in the current playerbase that distinction even applies to. Honestly, Sneaze's idea would have been good if coins were still going to be a currency and his plan were used to normalize our balances, but in our situation it's simply a waste of time.
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Old 05-25-2017, 06:31 AM   #25
Jerichi
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So this has gotten way out of hand and everyone seems to be coming from either a point of self-interest or bitterness for the most part.

Why don't we scrap the idea of a coin wipe all together as it seems to be the option that leaves the most people unhappy and has mostly just neutral voters otherwise.

How about we discuss the following question:
which option is healthier for the RP as a whole?
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