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Old 05-02-2017, 05:25 PM   #1
Marion Ette
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Lilligant Cable Club, Trade Restrictions and the White Market

Hello everyone,

In the interest of getting the Cable Club up and running as soon as possible, I present to you the previous Cable Club rules list, with my thoughts/suggested edits included:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Cable Club
Rules:
- You may post a trade list containing Pokémon or Items that you would like to trade for, or wish to trade away. (This should be a separate thread in the TO - Possibly a feature of the White Market.)
* Do NOT ask or offer in this thread, make all trade arrangements via the White Market TO thread or Private Message, AIM, YIM, MSN, etc. (Haha, YIM? MSN?! Probably should replace with more modern clients, like Skype/Discord)
* You can combine rare candies and/or cash with other Items or Pokémon in the same trade.
* Coins cannot be traded.
* A maximum of 5 candies can be exchanged in any one trade. (Not sure if we want to keep this, particularly if we're moving to demonetize rare candies... thoughts?)
- Trades may be permanent or traded back after an evolution or other arrangements.
*** Make all arrangements ahead of time to avoid conflict.*** (This is not a rule. This is words of wisdom, perhaps, but the best laid plans o' trainers and Rattatas gang aft agley...)
- Post a Reply with the Pokémon or Item/s you want to trade.
- If you're evolving a Pokémon, make sure you have all evolution items or requirements mentioned as well.
- Clearly state what you are trading and to who.
* Always "Quote" the person you are trading with.
- Post *Trade Closed* when your trade is complete, including what you are trading and to who.
- There should only be 2 posts made for making a trade, the Opening and Closing posts, unless you are trading to evolve a Pokémon in which case a third post will be required to trade the Pokémon back.
- Always keep your trade list current, especially after trading something that is advertised as being up for trade. (No longer relevant if wishlists are in a separate thread.)
- NEVER delete your completed trade posts. (I guess I can see why this would be. Probably should add wording to the effect of, "If you want to reverse a trade, please start a new one in order to trade back.")
- You CANNOT trade your starter Pokémon. (I'm of two minds about this... Your starter should be special, and this DOES prevent certain forms of abuse, such as having friends join with a Pokemon you want and trade it to you, but... Part of me also feels that this restrictions forces a viewpoint on starters not everyone may share.)
- The Cable Club is not an auction.
- Do NOT involve yourselves in other peoples trading. (I think something about not including off-topic posts or posts not directly involving a trade would be a more general catch-all for this point and the point above it.)
- DO NOT post your signature. (I don't really care about signatures personally.)
- Failure to follow rules will result in deletion of posts and a possible banning from this shop.
Thoughts and feedback are appreciated - additionally, any suggestions regarding trading and the White Market should be brought up here!
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Old 05-02-2017, 05:41 PM   #2
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Wishlists should definitely get their own thread/be part of the white market.

Rare Candies should remain trade-able as items, but how many we can trade shouldn't have a limit, in my opinion.

I think the no-sig rule should stay in place in shops, including the CC. Sigs can get huge, and it's just tidier this way.

Other than that, I have no opinions.
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Old 05-02-2017, 05:47 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 134 View Post
Wishlists should definitely get their own thread/be part of the white market.
Definitely their own thread. It would make sense to lump them in with the White Market, no question, but the point's been brought up before that this would risk the same issue that the wishlists faced in the Cable Club- getting buried under tons of other posts. The thread for wishlists should be for wishlists and wishlists alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 134 View Post
Rare Candies should remain trade-able as items, but how many we can trade shouldn't have a limit, in my opinion.
Some years ago, there was, for a little time, no restriction on how many Rare Candies could be traded in one go. It was insane. Bidding wars were all but decided based on who had the bigger Rare Candy stash. I've been more in favor of keeping the restriction in place, personally.


As for signatures, I'm cool either way. Shop posts do look rather tidy with sigs removed, but on the other hand, I've seen a lot of people remark on how hard it was to get into the habit of not posting signatures in shops.
I do like the look of signature-less shop posts, I guess, but if it's more of an inconvenience to the members than it's worth, I'd be fine with axing that rule.
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Old 05-02-2017, 05:47 PM   #4
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If we want to do wishlists, especially if we want them to be used by updaters, they should probably have a dedicated thread.
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Old 05-02-2017, 05:51 PM   #5
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After hearing MM's testimony, I am changing my opinion on unlimited candies. That does sound horrible.

Also, I'm 100% cool with a dedicated wishlist thread.

Additionally, I don't think it's that hard to not post your sig. Even if you forget to do so, you can just go back and fix it.

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Old 05-02-2017, 05:57 PM   #6
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I agree with most of what has been brought up. I am though in favour of keeping the candy restriction as it disadvantages new players otherwise. I'm okay with changing the limit though.

One question about the wishlist: why can't this just be a separate post in their Member thread? Most people try to keep their member thread up to date regularly and have a link to it in their signature. (It would also help in bumping up current veteran player's threads to the first page, though that's a minor issue).
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Old 05-02-2017, 06:00 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Admiral Insane View Post
One question about the wishlist: why can't this just be a separate post in their Member thread? Most people try to keep their member thread up to date regularly and have a link to it in their signature. (It would also help in bumping up current veteran player's threads to the first page, though that's a minor issue).
...That's not a bad idea. I didn't even think of that.
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Old 05-02-2017, 06:16 PM   #8
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Having wishlists all in one thread makes it much easier for trading. It's a pain in the butt to shop through 50+ threads one at a time to see if anyone wants this Rattata I've got, but it's a lot easier to scroll through two pages' worth of posts, 25 posts per page. Even easier to load the thread up and ask it, "Show me all posts that contain the word 'Rattata' or the URL 'http://www.upnetwork.net/fb/sprites/pn019.gif'."

Having wishlists be in individual members' threads is more convenient for updaters, who don't have to hunt for their member's wishlist (ALTHOUGH PUTTING A LINK TO THE WISHLIST AT THE TOP OR BOTTOM OF YOUR PROFILE POST WOULD SOLVE THAT), as well as for users annoyed by forum clutter. (One less thread fighting for supremacy on the first page of the Time Out forum ...)

I would think the utility for trades outweighs the utility for zone updates, but that's for you guys to decide.
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Old 05-02-2017, 06:20 PM   #9
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As far as I know, the main reason would be for the proposed "Jirachi Shrine" or whatever we had named it, where people could RP for a member of their wishlist on rare occasion. If we decide to not implement the shrine, then putting them in the member's post makes sense. JK I agree with Talon

Candies should stay trade-able and definitely have the limit on them kept. I would ask that people try to keep sigs off in shops for cleanliness, but if they forget, they aren't punished.

Whimsy recently suggested we keep Pokemon trades Pokemon-only, meaning no currency/items can be traded for Pokemon. Thoughts? I'm personally not opposed to it but I understand why others would be, just figured it'd be a decent thing to think about.
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Old 05-02-2017, 06:51 PM   #10
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My biggest consideration is to at least not put them in a thread where unrelated things are frequently happening. That was one of the dumbest things about the Cable Club, because if you posted a wishlist or whatever it would be buried among 50 trades until the thread got cleaned out.

Consolidation of wishlists in one convenient, single-purpose thread will be beneficial for everyone.

>Whimsy recently suggested we keep Pokemon trades Pokemon-only, meaning no currency/items can be traded for Pokemon. Thoughts? I'm personally not opposed to it but I understand why others would be, just figured it'd be a decent thing to think about.

That massively devalues currency, fyi. Pokémon will almost always be the big ticket item, and to remove them from the mix entirely will cause the inherent value of your currency to plummet as well.
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Old 05-02-2017, 06:53 PM   #11
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Yeah, one thread for the wishlists, and wishlists alone, that's probably best, along with the suggestion that each member links to their wishlist in their member post for convenience.

On another note, I like the idea of calling the proposed "RP-for-something-on-your-wishlist" thread Jirachi's Shrine.
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Old 05-02-2017, 07:00 PM   #12
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Oh I'm absolutely fine with having a separate thread for the wishlist, especially considering the point that have been made. I was just largely puzzled about why that option was glossed over, and that's been answered now. I have to admit that I was largely unaware of Jirachi's shrine and thought it was just an alternative name for the wishlist thread.
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Old 05-02-2017, 07:14 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Current rule
Do NOT involve yourselves in other peoples trading.
I think the reason this was put into place was to try and minimize drama.

Case 1. Without this rule, what you end up getting is:
  • MM and Rue agree to a trade. MM is going to trade his Master Ball to Rue for his Red Shard.
  • Both MM and Rue are satisfied with the trade. Rue believes he's getting a great deal, and so does MM.
  • Talon sees what's happening and butts in, publicly or privately.
  • Talon shares his opinion that a Master Ball for a Red Shard is a horrible trade, that the person giving up the Master Ball is getting screwed.
  • MM reads Talon's thoughts and decides, "You know what? I agree. The deal's off. Sorry, Rue!" and decides to keep his Master Ball.
  • Now Rue is pissed off at Talon for "cheating him" out of a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity at getting a Master Ball.
So you had the rule put in place because, at the end of the day, "the only two people's business whose the trade is are those two people trading." Talon might privately think to himself that MM's been screwed, but so long as MM and Rue were happy with the deal, he can keep those thoughts to himself. So goes the logic.

The problem is, that rule then strangles good Samaritans from being able to prevent what they perceive as members taking advantage of other members. Say MM later finds out that not only was he screwed by Rue but that fifty different people knew about it and said nothing. Don't you think he'd be upset that not one person came to him and said something to him before it was too late? "You guys just stood there and watched! You let me get screwed!"

Case 2. Another problem that this rule hoped to address, most likely, was trade sniping. Say I post in the White Market offering to trade my Spinda to someone. Say I get a reply there from GS saying he'd like to offer me his Ochre Flute (a really rare, highly sought-after item I've just made up) for my Spinda. Well sure, golly! But I'm at work when this happens. And before I can even reply to him ... in swoops EAI who says, "Hey, GS! I see you're trading your Ochre Flute. How about I offer you my Spinda plus a Magic Carpet" (can be ridden like an actual magic carpet) "plus five Red Cyber-Balls?" And GS is all, "Oh yeah, sure! Uh, sorry, Talon! ^^;" and he ducks out of his trade with me. ... EAI just sniped me! I could have had an Ochre Flute, and he ...! GRDSOFOSPYAH!

With the last example, it was easy to see how the rule can be abused by players acting in bad faith (or ignorance, or both). But with this one, the current rule about not inviting yourself into other people's trades makes a bit more sense. While it's true that GS could have gotten a better deal with EAI than with me, I wasn't the one making him offer me his Ochre Flute. I was just looking for people who wanted to trade for my Spinda. I found a once-in-a-lifetime deal ... and then EAI snatched it away from me while I was at work. Frustrating.

But similar to the previous case, it's easy to see how here, too, GS might come out of this at a later date feeling like he was swindled by me. "How could I let that Ochre Flute go!? And how could Talon let me do it!? That jerk! He knew my Ochre Flute was worth ten thousand of his Spindas, and yet still he let me trade it away to him! Oh, he'll pay!" Just like before, we get bad blood in FB despite the rule's intention to prevent it.

So I dunno! I don't know whether the rule is a good thing or a bad thing. I can certainly think of many instances where I've felt it was a bad thing, instances where I've wanted to speak up and warn people about potentially horrific deals they were getting themselves into (in my view) but didn't say anything because of the rule. I can even think of a couple of times where I did say something, breaking the rule, and the people I talked to immediately thanked me from the earth to the heavens. So like ... don't think I'm defending the rule because I like it! ^^;; I think it's a terrible thorn in the side of every good Samaritan who has ever witnessed what (in his view) has been a terribly lopsided deal about to go down. But at the same time ... if we take this rule away, we open ourselves up to an era of sniping and busybodying, and that could produce a whole new wave of drama and bitterness.
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Old 05-02-2017, 10:43 PM   #14
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I propose we have a cash limit too
I almost paid $1000 for a pokemon
that should not happen.
Also I think that pokemon for pokemon is a bit unfair because newbies are only likely to have 1 or 2 pokemon max. If it weren't for Escalon and some other very nice people I would not have had half my team.
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Old 05-03-2017, 12:34 AM   #15
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I was vocal about wishlists in the proposal discussion thread, but I will reiterate my support for the wishlist thread to only contain wishlists. In that thread Marion mentioned having the first post of the wishlist thread act as a directory, with links to each member's wishlist. I think that would be helpful for an updater to quickly find a person's wishlist, especially if it happens to not be linked in their member post.

Candies should absolutely keep some sort of maximum trade limit. We don't need bidding wars reaching 20+ candies again.

And yeah, making Pokemon only tradable for other Pokemon seems like it would have a negative impact on newbies in particular.

@Talon I think it comes down to which we as a community think is worse. Sniping a trade, or one-sided bad trades? My knee-jerk reaction is to say that sniping is worse. With sniping, you have an immediate, almost guaranteed spark of drama/bad blood, whereas lopsided trades aren't guaranteed to cause a problem. The player who got the "bad deal" might have gone into it knowing that it was a bad deal and are fine with that fact, or not particularly care down the road if they realize it. Still not a great thing, but what strikes me as the lesser cause of drama. I don't think there's a right answer to this one, unfortunately. But I suppose I am tentatively on the side of keeping the rule to prevent sniping.
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Old 05-03-2017, 01:26 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyoyo3131 View Post
As far as I know, the main reason would be for the proposed "Jirachi Shrine" or whatever we had named it, where people could RP for a member of their wishlist on rare occasion.

Candies should stay trade-able and definitely have the limit on them kept. I would ask that people try to keep sigs off in shops for cleanliness, but if they forget, they aren't punished.

Whimsy recently suggested we keep Pokemon trades Pokemon-only, meaning no currency/items can be traded for Pokemon. Thoughts? I'm personally not opposed to it but I understand why others would be, just figured it'd be a decent thing to think about.
I personally like the dedicated wishlist thread, as other above have also stated so it seems like I'm just agreeing with the majority.

I agree that candies should stay trade-able, and a limit is most appreciated so nothing gets particularly out of hand. A cash limit may not be the worst idea either.

I don't like Pokemon trades being Pokemon to Pokemon only. Unless there are some huge reworks to getting Pokemon, this would not exactly work. Most people don't have Pokemon that they can trade for that ~one elusive Pokemon~ they have their eye on. However, I do realise that most aspects of FB are being reworked and if catches become easier I would certainly support this rule.
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Old 05-03-2017, 08:54 AM   #17
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I think the "Do not interfere" rule should stay, mostly because I read Talon's post and find myself agreeing with him. However, I will say one thing: if you see someone doing something they really shouldn't (note: this doesn't strictly mean someone low-balling someone else), do not hesitate to inform the mods about the issue and potentially the other party. We have had some bad problems with trading, and not all of them are solvable (as much as I would like to make all trades go through a public thread, its probably impossible), but if someone is abusing the system or other people, it needs to be brought to the attention of people in charge.

This is probably the obvious unsaid thing, but I think we all need to remember this.
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Old 05-03-2017, 02:52 PM   #18
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I ha proposed a wishlist thread in Discord a few days ago, themed on a Shinto shrine where each person's post contains two seperate lists, written on flavoured ema. The pokemon ema, or the Memakyu, would have that person's wants, while the material ema, or the Emakiss, would contain the person's item wants. In the theme of the shrine though, each ema's pokemon list would not be tiered.

Which brings up another thing we should address. Want tiers should not be a thing here. It's all well and good if you really, really want something or must have it, but in the sake of interest we should not have this displayed as a priority over anything else, as that's a bit materialistic. In the same vein, this would cut down on the hostility of bidding wars.

Regarding the WM and CC itself, I've my own views.

Firstly, let's look at the...

>cable club

>2017

>gen 7


We need to rename this place. When was the last time a link cable was ever used? Something more modern such as the Global Link Station would be suitable.

With the above thoughts, limits on item trading need to be implemented. While the current candy limit is fine as it is (given that candies are going to be greatly devalued, keeping them for either levelling or trading to others is fine by me) Kawaii brings up a reasonable point. Pokedollars are tradable right now, and nothing's stopping people from slamming down a big old pile of money for that white Eevee over there. A limit on PDs has to be implemented, though the suggestion of $1k is a bit much and I feel $500 is much more reasonable. It also cuts down on the dreaded bidding war, which is the next Donphan in the closet I'd like to put my 2 coins into.

Bidding wars need to end. Period.

The WM, as it is right now, is fair enough and allows others to set up trades and whatnot, but the problem comes in when something highly sought after from several folks comes up. That white Eevee? Four or five people want it, so what happens? One of three outcomes.

1: Someone makes an offer of stupendous proportions and can afford it due to their massive stockpiles, and ousts every other bid.

2: Someone gives the standard '5 candies plus stuff' deal, which others then try and outdo, dipping into their own stocks until people start folding and much popcorn is munched by others who don't really care for white Eevees. Eventually there's just one big fat offer left.

3: Basically as above, only the person with the white Eevee mentions they're liking the look of that thing there, and proceeds to leech what they can from the bidder's hoards until one meets their demands over the other.

The first case, we have a fat cat straight up blowing the competition away, to the chagrin of the lesser folks. They add the white Eevee to their ever expanding collection of things they don't use, and likely never will, keeping it as a trophy.

The second case, we have the same fat cat battling with others, muscling out the peasants but then duelling with a cat who's not so fat as thick skinned, with the fat cat eventually deciding that the war isn't worth it and they'd rather hold onto their stocks. The thick-skinned cat gets the white Eevee and adds it to their collection, and bring it out every now and then to do things.

The third case, the fat cat and thick skinned cat once more battle, ousting the peasants, but then grow ever more irked with the greedy bastard selling the white Eevee, until one of them throws in the towel, tired of the bickering. The other one (it matters not whether fat or thick skinned here) hands over their goods, adds the white Eevee to their collection and leaves the dealer better off.

In all cases, there's a stench of corruption here. People offering something sought after should not keep on beckoning for more, and fat cats should not keep on piling more onto the plate for that pale rat thing. It's a White Market, not a Black Market for crying out loud. People offering pokemon for trade should do so under the impression that they are trading, not selling. Selling gives the impression of that phrase I keep throwing around, shop culture.

WM trades should have solid limits, whereby if more than one person meets the criteria for trades, then it's the choice of the trader to deliver the trade to one person. We shouldn't have competition here.
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Old 05-03-2017, 06:24 PM   #19
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Here's my draft for the wishlist thread I have, as requested by EAI. Mods, you''ll see a copy of this too.

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Shrine of the Third Eye
The Wishlist Thread


Deep in the forest south of Fizzytopia's central city lies a cobbled path, winding through the tranquil woodlands. At the end of the path, through a tall redwood torii stands a beautiful temple, its architecture similar to the fabled towers of Ecruteak, with cherry trees in perpetual blossom, the pink petals blowing through the outer gardens. At the entrance stand two Gardevoir, their arms adorn with red ribbons and sashes around their waists.

As you approach, the pair bow to greet you, before offering you a pair of wooden plaques and guiding you inside to the walls, where many similar plates hang. Painted on the left wall, with delicate strokes, an image of a Mimikyu among company. Carved on the right wall, with stunning craftsmanship, a relief of a Togekiss, wings spread wide over a mound of fruit. Beside each mural, in flowing calligraphy, a notice, seemingly written by the psychic maidens tending to the shrine.

"You are free to place your wishes on the ema provided.
Be kind and courteous, not greedy and scheming.
The Third Eye will open for those who help fulfil your dreams.
The Third Eye will reward you for your generosity."

In the centre, at the back, an obsidian sculpture of the Wish pokemon Jirachi stands, each facet lovingly polished, while a simple oak offering box lies below. Taking a look at your wooden plaques, you find them to fit each of the two walls, and a charcoal rod at a table beside the statue.


Wishlist Rules

1) You have two ema, or wooden plaques, each of which represent a seperate wishlist. The ema with the Mimikyu, the Memakyu, is for your pokemon wishlist. The ema with the Togekiss, the Emakiss, is for your material or item wishlist.

2) You may claim one post, and only one, for your wishlist, which will be linked to in the opening post just below. You may edit your post as you please.

3) In the spirit of keeping with the shrine policy, you are discouraged from prioritising any pokemon or item in our wishlist. You are writing a wishlist, not a shopping list. If you have pokemon you wish to trade with others, you should contact anyone who may be interested.

As you place your ema on the walls, you turn to the offering box. Thankful for the service provided, you place a few notes of money into the box, before bowing to the grateful tenders of the shrine before leaving. Your donation will help keep the shrine as tranquil as it was when you visited.

Wishlist Users

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Old 05-03-2017, 06:45 PM   #20
Missingno. Master
Poison-type Trainer
 
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Virbank City
Posts: 3,418
I for one like what Raves has here.
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My Shiny Pokémon (not up for trade, I don't do requests for Shiny banners or recolored Pokken artwork). FB team banners like the one above, however, those I do requests for.
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Old 05-03-2017, 07:11 PM   #21
134
Real proud to present.
 
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Location: In the squared circle.
Posts: 582
I also am in support of Raves' proposal.
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Old 05-04-2017, 12:11 AM   #22
kawaiiconcept
Rainbow Badge
 
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Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: in heaven
Posts: 880
I support Rave's proposal
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FIZZY BUBBLES INFO IS NOW ON UPN
HERE

Thanks to my best friend Missingno Master for the banner
óÓŇň furry, witch, and pansexual.
IM SORRY MY RPS ARE SO SHORT
For my baby :
"And we all say,
Oh well I never
was there ever
A cat so clever
As magical Mr. Mistofolese"
R.I.P. buddy, I miss you.
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Old 05-04-2017, 09:43 AM   #23
Raves
...try a little harder.
 
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Location: Life and love make fools of us all. Gods reject the existence of love and life.
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Alright, the community approves and the mods approve and gave me permission, so the wishlist side of things is sorted out.
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Old 05-07-2017, 11:31 AM   #24
Marion Ette
The Light and the Shadow
 
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Jirachi's Casino
Posts: 2,000
Here is my proposal for the new Global Trade Station Rules:

* The Global Trade Station is for posting and accepting trades only. Do NOT ask or offer in this thread. Make all trade arrangements via the White Market TO thread or Private Message, Skype, Discord, etc.
* You can combine rare candies and/or cash with other Items or Pokémon in the same trade.
* Coins cannot be traded.
* A maximum of 5 candies can be exchanged in any one trade.
* Gifting items and Pokemon IS allowed, but it must be recorded here, with one trainer dropping off the gift and the other receiving it.
- Trades may be permanent or traded back after an evolution or other arrangements.
- Post a Reply with the Pokémon or Item/s you want to trade.
- If you're evolving a Pokémon, make sure you have all evolution items or requirements mentioned as well.
- Clearly state what you are trading and to who.
* Always "Quote" the person you are trading with.
- Post *Trade Closed* when your trade is complete, including what you are trading and to who.
- There should only be 2 posts made for making a trade, the Opening and Closing posts, unless you are trading to evolve a Pokémon in which case a third post will be required to trade the Pokémon back.
- DO NOT delete your completed trade posts. If you would like to reverse a trade, please start a new one. This is to ensure that we are able to maintain records of all trades.
- You CANNOT trade your starter Pokémon, unless it is a temporary trade for evolution purposes.
- Out of courtesy for others, please hide your signature if it is excessively large.
- Failure to follow rules will result in deletion of posts and a possible banning from this shop.

Rules regarding trade etiquette (trade-sniping, involvement in the trades of others, etc.) should probably be edited into the White Market - we can write up some rules to post for that thread in order to discourage negative behavior regarding trades.

What do y'all think?
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Last edited by Marion Ette; 05-07-2017 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 05-07-2017, 11:34 AM   #25
134
Real proud to present.
 
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Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: In the squared circle.
Posts: 582
I have no objections.
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Active Team @ Le Marécage Noir

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Active Team @ Incognito Isle


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