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Old 06-27-2017, 08:28 PM   #51
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I think saying ¨half¨doesn really mean anything when many updators don even use numerical values when updating. There is no set standard in FB and everyone uses their own style. Some use dice, some use RNG, some use discretion. Some use plain whim. This is why I think making the two stack is something that is difficult to quantify across FB as a whole, and why I'm not really a fan of the idea.
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Old 06-28-2017, 04:26 AM   #52
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Perhaps make it so that instead of having the Serene Grace, we do something else: Make it have the statuses be more effective, rather than more likely. Statuses last longer, maybe have stat boosts be doubled and drops halved, something like that?
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Old 06-28-2017, 07:28 AM   #53
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Perhaps make it so that instead of having the Serene Grace, we do something else: Make it have the statuses be more effective, rather than more likely. Statuses last longer, maybe have stat boosts be doubled and drops halved, something like that?


I still think "halved" and "doubled" are not really possible to quantify in FB, but pushing that concern aside for a moment in favor of the broader discussion, I think something like more potent stat boosts and less potent stat drops could be a nice perk.

As for statuses lasting longer, I'm not against it, though to my knowledge this only affects Sleep, Freeze, and Confusion as the rest are permanent for the duration of the battle. Which is fine, but something to take into account.
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Old 06-28-2017, 10:20 AM   #54
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The others could just be more debilitating. More painful, more restrictive... Basically stronger.
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Old 06-28-2017, 10:28 AM   #55
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Honestly, unless Affection already has the capability to affect them, I think we should stay away from improving statuses. I'm not sure how many attacks there are than have the chance to buff the user when used aside from the Winds and Charge Beam, but if there are more maybe we could do something with that? Or is this too much of a stretch?
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Old 06-28-2017, 11:21 AM   #56
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I still think tiers could be limited to 5. 20, 40, 60, 80, 100, or something. I just think 10 tiers is extremely full of fluff and you could accomplish the same outcomes/ideas in fewer tiers by combining them. As far as I can tell people just want 10 tiers to get perks faster and easier, which faster/easier != efficient.

Whatever the outcome is, this system needs to be 100% user curated. We simply cannot expect updaters to keep track of this for the player. It's just not feasible.
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Old 06-28-2017, 11:51 AM   #57
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I agree with deo here. The fact that we're struggling to fill out perks is indicitive of how unnecessarily extra it is. Keeping things nice and simple is usually best.

Regarding combat perks, perhaps it would be easiest to have something outlined first (on a seperate thread)? I do believe we should never use PASBL energy rules, or any strict number guidelines (flow of battle and results should be more intuitive and up to updater's discretion, imo), however, I do feel it should all fall under some sort of cohesive and unifying framework - basic concepts that should apply equally to all and that serve as the groundwork for the perks detailed here.

Regarding link moves, I want them gone tbh. They feel out of place, and if they must persist I'd rather they were learned through some item which I can choose to use.

Just my two cents.
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Old 06-28-2017, 12:08 PM   #58
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By 'Link Moves', do you mean all attacks from the system or just the custom ones? That's kinda an important detail there, don't ya think?
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Old 06-28-2017, 12:24 PM   #59
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I was more specificly addressing custom moves, though an argument could be made about learning a standard move as a link reward to be mediocre in design given the number of other means to acquire them. I personally stand by a design philosophy that link rewards should only be passive perks that reflect on the strength of the bond between trainer and pokemon, akin to the system introduced during gen 6.

That said... I'm not entirely against the idea of a player developing a custom z-move or custom perk as a reward of a max link. It depends on how much effort it takes to max out and which restrictive boundaries are set up.
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Old 06-28-2017, 01:10 PM   #60
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I think one underlying problem people are coming to here is that we're looking at this system from a scale of 0 to 100. The original reason Mask and I wanted to have 10 perks was because 5 perks seemed too few AND having to invest in 20 IQ for each perk seemed too much.

What if we instead thought of an IQ system from 1 to 50? We'd only have to think about 5 tiers for it, 10 IQ for each tier, and we'd be able to either condense our perk list OR offer a choice between two perks at each tier, allowing for some amount of customization for our Pokemon.
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Old 06-28-2017, 01:24 PM   #61
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I'd be chill with a 1-50 system. Not sure I like the idea of having to choose though, but that's my inner completionist talking.
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Old 06-28-2017, 01:54 PM   #62
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A system of 1-50 could work. If we're really struggling to come up with 10 separate perks, and we don't want such a long wait between perks, I could see this being a good solution to both problems.

Lemme compile a list of the potential perks that don't involve custom moves, and also not counting the pseudo-Serene Grace.

-Learning an Egg/MT move
-Potential to gain extra levels in zones
-Learning a TM move
-Happiness evolutions
-Healing itself from status conditions once per adventure
-Learning any one move of your choosing
-Create your own Custom Move/Z-Move
-Bond Phenomenon

I think that's all the ones we had come up with that haven't been shot down completely. Of them, obviously happiness evolutions must be a thing... Bond Phenomenon would be reserved for maxing out Link, and must have an alternative to choose from- probably the creating your own custom move or Z-Move. Here's my rough idea;

0 Link: Nothing!!! Yaaaaay!

10 Link: The Pokémon can more easily gain levels in zones. Once the Pokémon hits level 100, it can heal off any status conditions once per zone adventure without expending any energy to do so.

20 Link: The Pokémon learns an Egg/MT move. If it has all its Egg/MT moves, or doesn't get any, it can learn a non-standard MT move.

25 Link: Happiness evolutions can now occur. I didn't put this one at a multiple of 10 because I felt it should still be right in the middle, though if anyone disagrees, I'm not gonna insist on this.

30 Link: The Pokémon can learn a TM move of your choosing. It does not need to be compatible with said TM in the games. Question- should this encompass any moves that were available via TM in FB at any point? There've been a few that weren't in the games- Harden, Outrage, Seed Flare, Dark Void, and Heart Swap, off the top of my head.

40 Link: The Pokémon can learn any one move of our choosing, except for Sketch, Transform, and Shadow moves.

50 Link: You get to create a brand new Custom Move or custom Z-Move for the Pokémon, OR, you get to create a Bond Phenomenon form for the Pokémon (only one Bond Phenomenon form per member (or per Trainer character? Thoughts?).
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Old 06-28-2017, 02:06 PM   #63
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I feel like the reason Happiness Evolution was put on a multiple of ten in the first place was for the sake of converting the pokemon that have already evolved using the old system into the new one with easy math. 50 in particular was easily divisble by 10 in a manner that was easy to make sense of in terms of the pokemon that had only made it pat of the way there before the revolution, while still being notably greater than the IQ of yore (though that particular detail can easily be waived). 25... simply doesn't work with the intended math. Something to keep in mind here.
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Old 06-28-2017, 02:09 PM   #64
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That's a fair point. Math is not my strong suit by any stretch of the imagination, so I'm not surprised I missed that.
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Old 06-28-2017, 02:16 PM   #65
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>10 Link: The Pokémon can more easily gain levels in zones. Once the Pokémon hits level 100, it can heal off any status conditions once per zone adventure without expending any energy to do so.
As I outlined in the level up threads, I think most of us all pretty much agree we should just try to encourage all updaters to give levels more frequently for even the most minor of tasks and parts to play in the story. This shouldn't be a perk, this should simply just be a thing that we need to start doing.

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>40 Link: The Pokémon can learn any one move of our choosing, except for Sketch, Transform, and Shadow moves.
No, sorry. I'm not for this. I'm already mega against the idea that any Pokemon can learn any move. I quite frankly think this gets way too abused enough as it is and I don't even know why it's legal in FB. We already have plenty of Pokemon floating around that know moves that make absolutely no sense whatsoever (I do not believe a Diglett should be allowed to learn Sky Attack, Fly, Self-Destruct, or Mega Kick, for example). It's one thing when it's done tastefully (like a Pokemon learns a move it can't learn usually, but it makes sense for it to - for instance, Seviper did not used to be able to learn Swords Dance, but it would make sense for it to for obvious reasons. Now it can in the new gen, which more or less vindicates people who might have wanted to teach this to their Pokemon, because it just made sense).


Everything else I'm just whatever on
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Old 06-28-2017, 02:17 PM   #66
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I don't like the idea of bond phenomenon or custom moves. I just want to voice that.
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Old 06-28-2017, 02:21 PM   #67
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I don't like the idea of bond phenomenon or custom moves. I just want to voice that.
I didn't even see this, my eyes glazed right over it.

Can we please not do this Ash-Greninja BS with our Pokemon? Greninja is the only Pokemon that we know can do it, and even then this was a terrible idea that I really don't want in FB.

edit: I personally don't care about custom moves as long as they get "approved" first by someone for not being utterly absurd, so ie. no "My Alakazam literally stops time and eats a bowl of cereal and then shoots corn flakes at the enemy at the speed of light, banishing them to a past where only oatmeal exists"

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Old 06-28-2017, 02:39 PM   #68
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I'd say scrap the custom move/bond stuff and move the 'any move' perk up there. I'm fine with it being a thing,, but equally it's the sort of thing where you should really have to be earning that fucker.

Pokemon learning outside their natural pool is a base thing of Fizzby, as far as I can tell. It's been going on for ages, and while it's pretty much limited to universal TM/MT for the most part, it's still noticeable. It's a thing so that people can actually have fun with ridiculous shit like Sky Attack Digletts, or so that people can keep Pokemon in an evolutionary stage they prefer withough getting hamstringed by losing access to the good moves they might want on it. It grants freedom for enjoyment. Otherwise a good number of Pokemon are going to be locked to just free RP because their movepool is too pisspoor to be useful, and newbs are going to be having issues because they came to RP but they have to slog through the boring 'move every four levels that's rarely not STAB or Normal, and good luck with TM reliance'. It's useful. If people wanted that narrow 'NOTHING OUTSIDE THE NATURAL POOL' Fizzby would be on Smogon, not UPN.
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Old 06-28-2017, 02:48 PM   #69
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I'd say scrap the custom move/bond stuff and move the 'any move' perk up there. I'm fine with it being a thing,, but equally it's the sort of thing where you should really have to be earning that fucker.

Pokemon learning outside their natural pool is a base thing of Fizzby, as far as I can tell. It's been going on for ages, and while it's pretty much limited to universal TM/MT for the most part, it's still noticeable. It's a thing so that people can actually have fun with ridiculous shit like Sky Attack Digletts, or so that people can keep Pokemon in an evolutionary stage they prefer withough getting hamstringed by losing access to the good moves they might want on it. It grants freedom for enjoyment. Otherwise a good number of Pokemon are going to be locked to just free RP because their movepool is too pisspoor to be useful, and newbs are going to be having issues because they came to RP but they have to slog through the boring 'move every four levels that's rarely not STAB or Normal, and good luck with TM reliance'. It's useful. If people wanted that narrow 'NOTHING OUTSIDE THE NATURAL POOL' Fizzby would be on Smogon, not UPN.
You're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine. I'm not trying to make this Smogon competitive bullshit, I am simply pointing out that I think it's absolutely ridiculous, and I am not going to budge on that. The anime doesn't even go that far. Pokemon have learnsets for a reason. If you venture outside of that, it just goes against literally the whole point of Pokemon.

I'm just going to be straight with you, if your Pokemon knows something like self-destruct when it doesn't make sense, especially if it's an organic creature, and you come into my zone with it and it uses it, don't be upset when it turns out you just killed your own Pokemon and got its guts all over the place - or if you try to make your Diglett use Mega Kick, nothing happens.
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Old 06-28-2017, 02:50 PM   #70
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I'm good with "learn any move", with certain restrictions. Sketch and Transform are obviously no-go, as well as I'd say, an move that can only be learned by legendaries. (Sacred Sword, for example.)

Ummatural moves are, as It was said, already a thing, and while it is right now limited to TMs and MTs, I don't see the harm in giving ONE move of any origin to a Pokémon if they put in the effort, as long as we put in those few reasonable restrictions.
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Old 06-28-2017, 02:59 PM   #71
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The thing about moves outside of a Pokemon's movepool is that there are tasteful ways they can be incorporated. And yeah, I get the "don't police my fun argument", but thinking about it from another perspective, having a Diglett with Sky Attack would be immersion and fun breaking for someone else too. In a way, this mirrors the sentiment people have towards UPCmon. Deo basically voiced all my opinions regarding this matter. A compromise can be made however. If it where up to me, I'd put a hard cap on the number of unnatural moves a pokemon may learn, and I'd also subject these to an approval process to keep them from becoming too ridiculous (Judge/s could be nominated and voted for this role). This way, we can fix any percieved "movepool deficiencies" a mon may have and keep the FB wild moves tradition while also keeping this a tad tamer and acceptable for everyone. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Anyways, this is a discussion best saved for another thread, I think.

Back on the linking perks, here's mine just to see how it promotes discussion:

Quote:
Link 0: Baseline. No perks.

Link 10: Your Pokemon is now forming a very unique bond with you. It responds better to you than any other. Return/Frustration are now stronger.

Link 20: Your Pokemon fights harder for you, increasing accuracy, evasion, critical hit and critical evasion. Return/Frustration are at their strongest. Enables friendship evolution when applicable.

Link 30: Your Pokemon fights even harder for you. It may temporarily or completely overcome a status effect when it needs it the most.

Link 40: A Pokemon's bond with you is so strong it can now potentially endure a knock out move on its own and gain a second wind. "Sturdy" is always prioritized over this.

Link 50: You and your Pokemon are like one, and have a perfect intuitive understanding of what the other is thinking. During battles, a Pokemon no longer needs verbal commands to act. A custom Z move can now be developed (requires appropriately-typed Z crystal).
Notes:
I purposely made these perks to be rp friendly tools for updaters to use. None rely on strict dice rolls and all allow subjective cues as to when they should trigger if they do for narrative effect. At the same time they reflect how stronger your Pokemon is due to its bond than others. The simplicity in design is also meant to allow storytellers to apply this bond system to NPC characters as well, enabling the possibility of very interesting scenes and developments. For instance, Link 20 becomes evened out if the opponent also has just a strong a link, while it provides a significant buff against anyone else. Accuracy and evasion btw doesn't necessarily refer to all or nothing hit and miss. Rather, it might refer to more meaningful impacts or turning a sure hit against oneself into a glancing blow or a clutch dodge. There are many possibilities. In the end, its all passive bonuses that make one feel stronger, are subject to interpretation, and allow for creative freedom.
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Old 06-28-2017, 03:08 PM   #72
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I can understand hesitation towards unnatural moves and would even be okay with a cap on the number a Pokémon can have. I'm a little more iffy on a Judge because "tasteful" is subjective. (I, for example, think my unnatural moves are hella tasteful, but someone else might disagree.)

I feel a cap would at least force people to put thought into the ummatural moves they teach their Pokémon, and therefore avoid more ridiculous combinations.
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Old 06-28-2017, 03:09 PM   #73
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I don't see the harm in giving ONE move of any origin to a Pokémon if they put in the effort, as long as we put in those few reasonable restrictions.

I would be more than fine with it if it is both tasteful and gets approval. FWIW, I have no problem with your unnatural moves. I am talking about ones for Pokemon that it makes no physically possible sense for them to learn, really. Again, that is a matter of opinion though, I guess. I agree with Balmund. My main issue is more or less that some of these unnatural moves are just total immersion and narrative killers.

No, if you use Self-Destruct on an organic Pokemon that shouldn't be able to know it, I'm not actually going to blow your Pokemon up, that was cheekily voiced and vented out of frustration in terms of what it does to immersion and narrative. But I might make your move fail, yeah, which is definitely within FB rules to do.
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Old 06-28-2017, 03:49 PM   #74
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Quote:
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I can understand hesitation towards unnatural moves and would even be okay with a cap on the number a Pokémon can have. I'm a little more iffy on a Judge because "tasteful" is subjective. (I, for example, think my unnatural moves are hella tasteful, but someone else might disagree.)

I feel a cap would at least force people to put thought into the ummatural moves they teach their Pokémon, and therefore avoid more ridiculous combinations.
Yeah, I understand how the judge thing might be a bit iffy, but I'd argue that, say, the subjective opinion of 3 community appointed judges might be more acceptable to digest. Perhaps you wouldn't even need unanimous approval from all 3, just 2/3 to get a pass.

EDIT: Btw, just edited in a link progression proposal above.
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Old 06-28-2017, 04:11 PM   #75
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Pardon the dissection here, but I'e found a few flaws in your argument Deo. I apologize in advance if any of my counterpoints seem too pointed, I'm not the greatest at typing tone and have accidentally offended people as a result.

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The anime doesn't even go that far.
Water Gun Gulpin and Electro Ball Slurpuff say "hi".

Quote:
venture outside of that, it just goes against literally the whole point of Pokemon.
And what is the "point" of pokemon, exactly? 'Cuz I'm fairly certain that's a highly subjective matter right there, and we're not seeing eye-for-eye.

Quote:
I'm just going to be straight with you, if your Pokemon knows something like self-destruct when it doesn't make sense, especially if it's an organic creature, and you come into my zone with it and it uses it, don't be upset when it turns out you just killed your own Pokemon and got its guts all over the place
Nuzleaf, Snorlax, and Forretress are all organic, and are all capable of learning it in some way, shape, or form. You're definitely taking that waaaaaay too far!

Quote:
- or if you try to make your Diglett use Mega Kick, nothing happens.
It is worth noting here that diglett do have feet to kick with, though they do have a distinct vulnerability to sunlight that makes not-so-keen on leaving their burrows. Realistically speaking, simply being visible can be too much for them at times.

But yeah, that is a discussion for another thread, if there even needs to be one. I think my position's clear on that matter.

~ ~ ~

Balmund, regarding your tweaks to the system, I would like to point out that there a few pokemon that can read minds as per their dex entries, and thus wouldn't need to receive verbal commands in the first place. Granted, this is a distinct minority of all pokemon, but it could have some impact on the end result here.
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