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Old 06-03-2017, 11:34 AM   #26
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Toy's idea imo is extremely good, and while it has a few kinks, they can be ironed out pretty easily. While I understand Balmund's points, I do think there is a potential issue with going too simple. One of the reasons I wanted the IQ system to stay was that it added an extra layer of depth to the game, in how you raise your Pokemon, and in the storytelling experience. It's not a cumbersome or burdensome layer of depth, but sometimes "unnecessary" things are good for the game. They can enrich the game, and I think that's what a lot of people are missing here. IQ wasn't worth it before, which I think is why a lot of people want it gone, but we can make it work, and I'd much rather do that instead of scrapping it.

>mega evolutions

I'm not a fan of Bond/Link gating them. Right now, we are working on thematic ways for a person and their Pokemon to get a Mega Stone, and personally, I'd rather not put people through more work than we need to.

>gummis

If the decision comes down to scrapping it, gummis were largely inconsequential anyways so I'm in favor of just doing away with them.
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Old 06-03-2017, 12:25 PM   #27
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I don't have anything in particular to add, just want to officially note that I like Toy's suggestion a lot!
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Old 06-03-2017, 12:50 PM   #28
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Will say more when I get back from work, but for right now I'll just say I like this idea.
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Old 06-03-2017, 02:11 PM   #29
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I'm not going to give opinion on this as a whole, seeing as I'm still not sure of that myself. I am however going to give some feedback and (hopefully) constructive criticism, seeing as it does seem to be pretty popular thus far. Does that sound fair to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyoyo3131 View Post
Link is gained through adventuring with your Pokemon and the use of Gummis. Every zone reply that you use a Pokemon in grants them 1 Link. Gummis grant 2 Link. Link can also be given as a reward to particularly good roleplay displaying the bond or development of a relationship between trainer and Pokemon, though never more than 3, and usually roughly 1 if at all.
I can certainly appreciate this. It gives use to all the random junk we've stocklpiled over time while still focusing primarily on RP'ing- and doesn't step on the Birthday Bash's metaphysical toes! Seems like a good compromise between the two arguments.

Quote:
20 Link: You and your Pokemon understand how one another trains. This Pokemon will level up one more time whenever they level up in a zone. This is applied when you confirm the level up in a reply, meaning the Zone Updator does not have to acknowledge this bonus.
Growth promotes more growth? At first I was hesitant about this one, but the fact that it's limited to Zones helps even it out a touch. It would be pretty ridiculous if this extended to the Daycare and Trainer Battles, after all... How often do in-zone level ups occur, anyway?

Quote:
40 Link: The bond between you and your Pokemon is clear to others, and other people commend you for it. Any Zone reply that includes this Pokemon grants an extra 50 Pokedollars. (idk about this one. feels annoying for whoever runs the Bank.)
Yeah, I agree with you here. As much as I would like to have a bit of extra cash as a player, the current income rate for most of us is already pretty high. One of the last things we need is to encourage inflation.

Quote:
60 Link: Your Pokemon pushes their own limits for your sake. When your Pokemon is affected by a status condition, you can choose for them to not be affected by it any more, as they shrug it off for your sake. This bonus can only be used once in any particular adventure.
Okay, while this one is pretty balanced in terms of Adventures, I have some misgivings about its use in Trainer Battles. An Energy-Free Refresh? Available for all pokemon? Seems kinda unfair to me. Am I the only one who thinks this?

Quote:
70 Link: Your Pokemon seeks to train harder than ever for you, even when you aren't around. When you drop this Pokemon off at the Daycare, any amount of levels they would gain is doubled. This bonus occurs after you pick them up, meaning the Shop Owner does not have to acknowledge this bonus.
Oh, here's the Daycare stuff. This one just seems a bit unbalanced (four levels a week, wahoo!), and holds no value for the higher-leveled partners. By the time a pokemon gets this far, they've likely had plenty of time to put the other Level boosting reward to good use, thus making this one seem almost pointless as a whole. Personally, I would like to see this changed to be of better use- we already have a milestone that's empty for most pokemon, after all.

Quote:
90 Link: You understand the essence of your Pokemon, and the two of you learn to harness it together. This Pokemon learns any one move of your choice.
Here, it needs to be asked if it is truly possible to get otherwise legend exclusive moves this way. I am aware that we already have plenty of pokemon with Dark Void or Shadow Force out and about thanks to a previous event (where Seed Flare got no love at all), never mind standard smeargle rules, so we do have a bit of precedence for allowing this. I'm just concerned that not everyone will agree with the notion, you know? If this is truly a whatever-you-like type deal, however, then I can appreciate that it can make people seriously contemplate what to do with this. For example, I have an idea for a pokemon where Judgement, King's Shield, and Wide Guard are all in-character options for this reward- and at the moment, I'm thinking King's Shield would be more appropriate than the legendary attack. Just some thing worth considering.

Lastly, can we discuss how this would effect a certain pair of moves? Every player begins with the ability to teach a pokemon either Frustration or Return, which depend heavily on the Happiness system of old. Continuing to tie them to this would arguably make the former an absolutely terrible investment, since keeping that one move up to snuff will cost you a lot of solid rewards, no matter how in-character it may be. That choice was already very one-sided before, but it can- and probably will with this system- get worse.
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Old 06-03-2017, 02:14 PM   #30
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I like Toy's proposal. I think it's best if we consolidate the two stats into one instead of having too many different things to keep track of. Additionally, I like the part of Toy's proposal where it's up to the individual trainer to police themselves and update/keep track of their own bond levels instead of putting the onus on updators/shop keepers to reward them bond increases every time.
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Old 06-03-2017, 02:17 PM   #31
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I too like Toyo's proposal, and we can probably just treat Return and Frustration the same as one another under the new system -- a strong negative bond like hatred is still a 'bond'. So when you would see a Return boost, youd see a a Frustration boost as well.
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Old 06-03-2017, 03:55 PM   #32
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I think it would be far easier to, if we did go the way of Toy's idea, reduce the number of 'link' stages from 10 to something more like 5 stages/tiers, as I do believe ten is too many and we could easily consolidate the benefits of each proposal into one of about 5 different tiers: 10 Link, 25 Link, 50 link, 75, and 100. It would be up to the trainer to keep track of this and updaters would only need to look at a person's profile to see what Link number that Pokemon has. The less amount means less memorizing and a simplified system, making it easier for updaters to integrate into a story instead of needing to look at a chart constantly or whatever

Edit: grammar, sorry on mobile, kinda posted this in a hurry

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Old 06-03-2017, 04:47 PM   #33
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Being completely honest I like ten better. Toy's rewards seem fair and need tweaks or moving around. Honestly anything less than ten feels more like simplifying for the sake of it than anything else, really.
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Old 06-03-2017, 05:48 PM   #34
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Quote:
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Being completely honest I like ten better. Toy's rewards seem fair and need tweaks or moving around. Honestly anything less than ten feels more like simplifying for the sake of it than anything else, really.
We're going to have to just disagree then. I suppose there will always be disagreements, which is normal. I think the system can be implemented, but I think ten tiers is an unnecessarily large amount when you could achieve the exact same results in fewer without having the updater have to constantly be checking the chart or going 'uhh shit I forgot what that tier number's benefits are' - the *only* instance in which I would find this possibly acceptable is if it becomes mandatory for the trainer to put the entire link tier in their pokemon's profile, description and all. And even then, if we did stick with ten, I think a few of the proposed tiers need to be rehashed a bit. Toy's system is good, and a great base system to work with, but it was a proposal and is by no means perfect on its first iteration.

And that's even if we decide to go this route. I'm still waiting to see if anyone objects to this idea, and if so, what their reservations are.
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Old 06-03-2017, 09:00 PM   #35
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Alright. As you can see, posting in Koffing Purple, means I'm back home, at my laptop, and able to make much more in-depth posts than I can muster on my phone during half-hour breaks. And with that established, let's talk about Soy Sauce's idea.

First off, there is the minor issue that some people increase a Pokémon's IQ to demonstrate their above-average intelligence. Case in point, my Weedle's IQ has reached 100. Now... while part of me is hesitant about this idea on that basis alone, the other part of me is thinking, "that's what we got the Smart Contest stat for". And that part of me makes a good point. And reworking IQ/Happiness into Bond, that works better than trying to implement affection, IMO. My Smeargle, for example- hardly the most affectionate of Pokémon, but she and Keith most definitely do share a bond. So yeah, bottom line- speaking as one such person who equates IQ in FB with intelligence, I would not object to the proposed system.

As for the proposed rewards, I'm all for something every ten Link, personally.

0 Link: Nothing, obviously. Should be pretty obvious.

10 Link: Kinda liking GS's idea of granting an Egg/MT move here.

20 Link: I've suggested something similar as an IQ bonus before, if memory serves- no, no, it was way back when we were discussing implementing affection- I remember suggesting, to emulate the games' boosted experience points, something similar to what Soy Sauce suggests for this. It sounds good to me. In-zone level-ups happen infrequently enough for this to not be horribly gamebreaking, IMO.

30 Link: I'm assuming that this TM would not need to be necessarily compatible with the Pokémon, yeah? Basically echoing GS's questions on this one.

40 Link: I like the idea behind it, but yeah, it does sound like it'd be something of a pain to keep track of. I actually have a different idea for the implementation of Raves's revamped Gummi Bomb, but I'll mention that later.

50 Link: Sounds like a good point at which to allow happiness-based evolutions. I'm with Emi, though- no real need to tie Mega Evolution to it, I think.

60 Link: I like it. I like it a lot.

70 Link: I'm leaning towards GS's suggestion- inserting Guardian Emera here instead. Once again, I like the concept behind what Soy Sauce suggested for this spot, but it might be tricky to keep track of.

80 Link and 90 Link: I'm gonna go with what GS said about these.

100 Link: I actually have an idea here- Bond Phenomenon. If you have a Pokémon with 100 Link, you'd have the option to give it a Bond Phenomenon form- basically its version of Ash-Greninja. Maybe this idea warrants its own thread, but I think tying it to this idea makes a lot of sense, since it makes a big deal about the bond between Trainer and Pokémon, and how in sync they both are, which 100 Link would basically imply. I'm thinking, obviously, this would only be for fully-evolved Pokémon, and possibly restricted to one per Trainer. That said, that would mean we'd need an alternative to Bond Phenomenon for anything else you have with maxed out Link, so... well, making a custom move would work for that, wouldn't it?

So yeah- my thinking is, at 100 Link, you'd have two options- make a custom move for the Pokémon, or register a Bond Phenomenon form for it. You'd need to design at least a minisprite for it, or ask someone to help you with that, and reigster what the form looks like- the Boutique seems like the logical place for that, IMO. This could also entail changing the Pokémon's Ability to Battle Bond if we deem it necessary. Thoughts?


As for Gummi Bomb? I'm thinking we keep that tied to Gummis, but in a different way- basically, if we're keeping Gummis, we make the Wonder Gummi to replace the Mysterious Gummi as it should be, BUT! We also keep the Mysterious Gummi, but alter its effect. Instead of sharing the effect of the Wonder Gummi, the Mysterious Gummi would simply function as a TM for Gummi Bomb. And if we do away with Gummis, then we just keep the Mysterious Gummi and make that change to it. Just my opinion.


Frustration: Only solution I'm seeing is what Tate suggested, so yeah, echoing that.
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Old 06-03-2017, 11:00 PM   #36
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I love the idea of Bond Phenomenon because it was actually pretty cool in the anime for being a gimmick to make Ash not need a Mega Pokémon proper, and I was always kinda disappointed that in the games, Ash Greninja was Ash Greninja no matter what. I would have liked it more if it were more personal, and I like this idea for making that a reality.

As for me sprinting my own form, your wish is beyond my power (/shenron), I will definitely need help on that, though I would do my best to draw it. No promises though, a lot of the Pokémon I'd think to do it for are not exactly simple designs ^^;
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Old 06-04-2017, 02:12 PM   #37
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A bit of a proposal in another direction. Gummis have always been a bit out of place in FB I feel, since (apart from II) Pokemon have their trainers with them. My thought is the way to go is to use them not to complicate thing for the updater with a bunch of weird skills and abilities to take into account, but explain away a bit more of our other real changes. We recently changed the TM rules to essentially allow any Pokemon to learn any move- what if instead we changed things up so that we limited TM usage a bit to move types that a Pokemon could learn in its in game TM-set, but that potential TM move pool can expand as IQ grows? Then you have mildly plausible explanations for the fire breathing Bellsprout, you give gummis a use and you don't give updaters something else that they have to keep track of.
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Old 06-24-2017, 11:29 PM   #38
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Sorry to bump this thread yet again, but there is something we need to pull up from here now that the Boutique seems to be winding down. Since we seem to be (mostly) in agreement in regards to Toy's proposal so far, which means this should probably have discussion pick back up for realsies- not because of IQ itself (as much as I wish that were the case), but for the Friendship side- after all, there are a good few friendship-based evolutions running about at the moment!

So far, it look like the system's at:

0 Link- Jack squat and butternuts. (Are you really that surprised?)

10 Link- Learn an Egg or MT move (Presumably natural; if, for some reason, this function is not yet available to you, then take an MT Move you'd expected the pokemon to get when it finally does. <Dhelmise is currently in this situation, BTW>)

20 Link-
When you Level Up in a Zone, you may gain an extra one

30 Link- Learn a TM Move (discussion still needs to be dona as to whether this must be natural or not)

40 Link- Either an extra $50 per Zone Reply OR Raves' reworked Gummi Bomb (A.K.A. Physical Hidden Power; discussion on whether or not this has to match the original version's type as well needs to occur)

50 Link- Any pokemon that evolve through Happiness in the main games may now do so (there is discussion as to whether or not Mega Evolution should be locked until now as well)

60 Link- Once per Zone Adventure, the pokemon can free itself from the grips of a Status Effect without using Energy

70 Link- When you gain a level in the Daycare Centre, you may gain an extra level OR Raves' Guardian Emera Attack

80 Link- Learn a move of your choice (Insert discussion on whether or not Legend Exclusive Moves or Shadow Attacks should be allowed here)

90 Link- It takes less fewer Zone Replies to capture a wild pokemon that has witnessed you

100 Link- Can now achieve the Bond Phenominon (limit one per profile); Make up a Custom Move for yourself if the previous option is unavailable or you do not wish to use it (BP needs to be discussed in and of itself; we should probably consider the implications of the CM's and Sketch <and potentially the 80 Link Mark>)

We also need to consider the Gummis' fate some more and discuss whether or not a weekly one should be a thing. It's already established under this system that each one would be worth 2 Link, so no need to worry there... right?

Anyways, let's try to get this ball rolling again, shall we?

Edit: Oh yeah, we might also want to discuss whether we should start counting the Link gained from Zone Replies should be from Post TessB (if the player so chooses) or as from the moment of implementation only.
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Old 06-25-2017, 01:13 PM   #39
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Okay, lemme weigh in on thoughts on the proposals, as well as a few tweaks to my couple moves.

10 link: An instant egg or MT move is a good start here, and making it a natural one is sensible. If the mon already has their natural egg/MT moves, then they'd be given the choice of one offtype MT move they don't learn normally.

20 link: Er, no. Giving the mon an extra level for a level in a zone makes little sense given that levels are going to be handed out more frequently in zones. I propose that at 20 link the pokemon gains an extra bit of natural energy for moves, equal to a Hyper Beam or so, allowing them to last longer in a sustained fight or event.

30 link: Learning a new TM move's fine, and this would mean any move since TM restrictions no longer apply in FB.

40 link: Yeah, it's going to have to be Gummi Bomb. In respects to my thoughts on GB, physical hidden power is very much still a thing, the attack doing Good damage rather than the Moderate it had before, and based on the user's own HP type: Hidden Power Ice would equate to Gummi Bomb Ice. Z-Gummi Bomb would work under the same rules as Z-Hidden Power: it would require Normalium Z and turn into Breakneck Blitz.

50 link: Evos on happiness here are fine. Mega evolution shouldn't be gated I feel, however.

60 link: Curing yourself of a status once per adventure? That's not too bad, but this should expand to allow the user to use their first STAB move in a battle without energy expenditure.

70 link: See 40 link for thoughts on the giving of free levels. Guardian Emera it is, but I've been having thoughts on the move, and feel it should be rethought as the current setup is complicated. Right now the move creates a temporary hold item that either halves STAB energy use or can be thrown to -1 all the foe's stats, but I feel that's not quite sane and too complicated. Therefore, my proposal to my proposal is a rework of the move.

Guardian Terrain (Status) (Normal)
The user draws upon their bond with their trainer to create a glyph on the surface, which expands and surrounds the battlefield in the Guardian Terrain field effect. Guardian Terrain affects all pokemon on the ground and gives them immunity to damage from moves of their own type, while increasing the damage they deal with moves of their own type by 50%. Guardian Terrain also prevents the pokemon within from being afflicted by burns or freezing, and will last 5 turns. Guardian Terrain is affected by the Terrain Extender, and will override any terrain effect currently up while preventing weather from having any effect on the battle.

Z-Guardian Terrain uses the Normalium Z, and will increase the user's accuracy by two stages.

From complicated hold item thing to full-blown Pokemon Ranger reference terrain move! Guardian Terrain pretty much acts as Adaptability for all pokemon, while making them immune to their own type moves, as well as stopping burns and freezes, serving as both an offensive and defensive terrain that any pokemon can utilise. This would use more energy than the other four terrains, it should be noted.

80 link: Learning a move of your choice sounds horribly broken, sorry. Even excluding legendary and shadow moves (rightfully) we have plenty of moves that have limited learnsets due to their effects. Sketch is one example, as is Transform, but we could work around this. At 80 link, the pokemon can learn any move of their own type, excluding legendary-only moves, Sketch and Transform. This gives each pokemon their own unique pseudo-signature move, which suits it better.

90 link: Anything that affects an adventure and catch should be dissuaded. If anything, at 90 link the user should get the other end of the 20 link effect, and get an extra boost in health, giving them the stamina and resilience to last longer. Additionally, the pokemon, if weakened enough, wouldn't faint until the end of a round, even if they take enough damage at the beginning to knock them out.

100 link: Bond Phenomenom's something we should discuss further, with what kind of bond being a thing. We have transformation forms in the vein of (tr)Ash-Greninja, but the mention of a custom move is something we can play with. Having maxed bond could mean the pokemon gets access to a unique signature move, or even a Z-Move if allowed. It's something we should debate.
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Old 06-25-2017, 10:21 PM   #40
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I have some reservations about making a tier guarenteed to be a Terrain move, Sure, it's a great trick for ground based pokemon to force airborne opponents between maintaining their maneuverability and getting all of these sweet boosts, but it also works the other way- not many airborne pokemon are particular fond of being grounded (if they can even reach that state in the first place) and a good few of them don't have all the tools necessary to function as a turret for the next few rounds. Guardian Terrain simply isn't as helpful for them as it is for the others.

The only other problem I have with your ideas lies in the 80 tier. At this point, ti becomes clear that you're focusing more on STAB than RP, since not all character concepts easily mold themselves to the base types- especially if the pokemon in question already has access to most of the non-legendary attacks of their type in the first place. As such, I am personally not in favor of restricting this to one's own typing. This could be just me, though, so take it with a grain of salt or two.
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Old 06-25-2017, 10:48 PM   #41
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I also have reservations about restricting the 80 link reward to a STAB move that isn't legendary-exclusive. If we want to restrict legendary-exclusive moves, Sketch, and Transform, that's one thing, I'm all for that much, but making it STAB only, that's a whole other swarm of Yanma. I mean, I have some ideas for that, some general movepool wrongs this could right, some attacks that are just an excellent fit for my Pokémon for one reason or another. Some of them would be STAB (for example, I intend to teach my Vileplume Belch in this manner if indeed we implement this system, as well as teaching Megahorn to my Weedle), but most assuredly not all of it would be. My Timburr would learn Wood Hammer in this manner, for example. And my Umbreon would be far more likely to learn a Poison move in this way than a Dark move. Even without restrictions, I don't plan on slapping Transform or Judgment on everything (though I'll admit teaching Judgment to Hebenon occurred to me at one point). Plus, by that point, it's very likely that whatever Pokémon you've gotten to 80 link has already learned a good selection of STAB moves, so it just seems a bit unfair to restrict them to yet another one, at least in my opinion.

Also, Guardian Terrain sounds freaking awesome, though I'm gonna echo MD's concerns about how this might seem like less of a boon to airborne Pokémon like Weezing.
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Old 06-26-2017, 07:06 AM   #42
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Right, I see the point you make about Guardian Terrain and airborne pokemon, especially given the other terrain moves have effects on things off the ground too, such as Psychic Terrain's anti-priority and Misty Terrain's anti-dragon properties.

The user draws upon their bond with their trainer to create a glyph on the surface, which expands and surrounds the battlefield in the Guardian Terrain field effect. Guardian Terrain affects all pokemon and gives them immunity to damage from moves of their own type, while increasing the damage they deal with moves of their own type by 50%. Guardian Terrain also prevents the pokemon within from being afflicted by burns or freezing, and will last 5 turns. Guardian Terrain is affected by the Terrain Extender, and will override any terrain effect currently up while preventing weather from having any effect on the battle.

I've removed the point about grounded pokemon, so it works with every mon now.

In regards to the 80 link thing, that too is something we can reconsider. Would it be worth considering having the 80 link bonus being a higher chance of added effects from moves, basically a pseudo-Serene Grace?
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Old 06-26-2017, 10:08 PM   #43
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phone so can't say much but! just wanna say that I really dislike the idea of codifying the concept of energy anywhere at all. I have 0 intentions of using the idea in my own updates, and I would hate to be forced to use a system I don't like just to work with Bond. (Also, the health buff sounds really weird. Maybe something like "Your Pokemon can avoid an attack as you call out to them, immediately avoiding an attack of your choosing." as these benefits represent synergy and specialized training, not straight buffs.)

Also, I'd really like to move away from Gummi Bomb, Defensive Shield, or any custom move as Bond related rewards. I'd much rather see the two given Custom Items like the other moves and sent away from this system.
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Old 06-27-2017, 07:27 AM   #44
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I second Toy on the custom moves thing. I never liked custom moves and if we're gong to tear the system down and rebuild it, I say good riddance.
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Old 06-27-2017, 01:54 PM   #45
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If we're thinking of moving Gummi Bomb away from IQ and into a custom item, I'd like to take this opportunity to reiterate my idea for that- namely, introduce the Wonder Gummi and have that replace the Mysterious Gummi (as should have been done from the start, considering Mysterious Gummi is the Japanese name of the Wonder Gummi), and repurpose the Mysterious Gummi as a custom item for teaching Gummi Bomb.

I'm not disliking Raves's idea of a pseudo-Serene Grace, though I'm still thinking the whole "teach the Pokémon (almost) any move you like" option still has some merit Restrictions should still apply, but only insofar as stuff like, no Shadow moves, no Sketch, no Transform. The pseudo-Serene Grace effect could instead replace "teaching Gummi Bomb" if indeed we decide to remove custom moves from IQ altogether.
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Old 06-27-2017, 04:01 PM   #46
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Okay, so if we get rid of the Custom Moves we could replace Gummi Bomb with, "increase chance of secondary effects of any move" and Guardian Emera with, "increase the duration of the Confused status effect when inflicted by that specific Pokemon and temporary debuff moves like Taunt and Torment." And if we're all in agreement on taking the two Custom Moves out we can move discussion of those moves to a different thread where they can get the face time they need.
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Old 06-27-2017, 04:30 PM   #47
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As someone with a Pokemon whose ability is Serene Grace, I'm not sure I appreciate having her skill cheapened by the proposed bond mechanic.

Not to mention, she'll basically lose an entire tier bonus because she already has the boost.
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Old 06-27-2017, 06:47 PM   #48
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...And what's to say they wouldn't stack?
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Old 06-27-2017, 09:05 PM   #49
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Do they? How do we quantify that? Does she always get her added effect because she has Serene Grace on top of Serene Grace?

I'm simply not a fan of the idea. Although, perhaps if it were the last one... ;D Graception.
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Old 06-27-2017, 09:18 PM   #50
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I'd be in favor of the effects stacking. Speaking as someone who also has a Pokémon with Serene Grace, that was my line of thinking as soon as I saw the idea. I for one love the idea of Violet becoming the queen of hax. My thinking, this effect wouldn't increase the chance of added effects as much as Serene Grace would- maybe half as much?

(nicknames: Violet=Dunsparce)
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