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Old 05-02-2017, 03:56 AM   #1
Gemini Spark
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Mewtwo IQ and the perks that come with it

Seeing that I was the one who owned the IQ shop before it went down, I feel that I should be the one to bring it up here. (Here's the old thread for reference.) Now, for the most part, I think we can all agree that the reason not many people invested in IQ was because there wasn't much incentive to. 20 points in IQ per perk up to 100 for a total of five perks that were...Custom Moves? Low percentage chance of avoiding status? A small boost to STAB? The only thing really worth anything to people would have been gaining the ability to capture evolved Pokemon, but even that was very situational, and if we're going to give everyone the ability to capture evolved Pokemon anyway then that perk might as well be obsolete.

Here is the old thread that MarbleZone started that gives an idea of what IQ can really give our Pokemon. There were quite a few things brought up there that I think are worth a discussion and may potentially get people excited enough about IQ that we can make it stick. So, just to TL;DR it a bit, here's the questions that were discussed there:

- Is IQ even worth keeping in the first place?
- Do we want IQ to give more perks? If so, how many, and what sort of perks should we add?
- Do we keep the old perks the way they are, or should they be moved around, reworked, or even removed?
- Should we allow Pokemon to eat a bigger variety of gummis and/or make certain gummis more effective on Pokemon?

As far as what I was thinking for IQ perks, below are the original IQ perks compared to what I had in the suggestion thread:

IQ Levels and what you receive:
Level 20: The Pokemon has a 15% chance of not being affected of status conditions.

Level 40: The Pokemon learns the move Gummi Bomb:
Gummi Bomb: (xxxx)
The User launches an energy bomb in the form of a gummi at the opponent that sticks to their skin/fur/scales whatever they've got, after 2 Rounds the Gummi Explodes doing (xxxx) damage, equal to that of a Sludge Bomb. The opponent can use means to get rid of the bomb, but regardless of where it is the bomb will go off after 2 Rounds.
Contest Type: Smart
Contest Effect:On the next round startles whoever appeals first.
Appeal Points <3 <3
Jam Points<3 <3 <3 <3

Level 60: The Pokemon gains a 5% power boost of all moves that are the same type as it (Example, all Water/Psychic Moves from Slowpoke are boosted, all Normal attacks from a Porygon are Boosted).

Level 80:If the Pokemon is the currently active one on the field, their boosted IQ allows you to capture 2nd form Pokemon as long as you have the corresponding Pokeball (Example - Houndoom you will need a Rocket or Fire Ball), the active Pokemon must also have been the one to Ko or weaken the wild Pokemon enough to capture it.

Level 100:Once your pokemon has gained the maximum amount of IQ, they will learn Defensive Shield (Normal), After your Pokemon attacks first, there is a 50% chance, they will anticipate a move and an Energy Shield will automatically be raised, if your Pokemon will attack second, they have a 25% chance of anticipating and will take the next attack and either taking the damage reducing it by 50% or taking the attack and reducing damage to 0, this can only be used once per round.
Contest Type: Smart
Contest Effect: Cuts the next Pokemon to appeals points in half.
Appeal Points: <3
Jam Points: <3 <3 <3 <3

My past list of IQ perks:
10 IQ: 15% chance of avoiding status conditions
20 IQ: +5% STAB
30 IQ: Gummi Bomb
40 IQ: Bonus to STAB is raised to 10%
50 IQ: Ability to capture second-stage Pokemon using custom Pokeballs that match the Pokemon's type
60 IQ: Chance to avoid status conditions is raised to 25%, 50% against Confuse and Attract
70 IQ: Defensive Shield
80 IQ: Bonus to STAB is raised to 20%
90 IQ: +10% damage to super effective attacks, -10% damage against super-effective hits
100 IQ: Critical hit chance is doubled

And here is my new list which reflects other mechanics that may be implemented:

10 IQ: +5% STAB
20 IQ: 15% chance of avoiding status conditions
30 IQ: Gummi Bomb
40 IQ: Bonus to STAB is raised to 10%
50 IQ: Chance to avoid status conditions is raised to 25%, 50% against Confuse and Attract
60 IQ: +10% damage to super effective attacks, -10% damage against super-effective hits
70 IQ: Bonus to STAB is raised to 20%
80 IQ: Critical hit chance is doubled (stacks with abilities, items, and moves that increase critical hit chance)
90 IQ: Damage bonus and damage reduction to/against super effective attacks increased to 20%
100 IQ: Critical hit damage is x3 instead of x2; if a Pokemon has the Sniper ability, this bonus raises critical hit damage to x4 instead

There was also talk about being able to give Pokemon more types of Gummis and/or increasing the amount of IQ a Pokemon can get from eating a Gummi. Obviously, anything and everything about IQ is open for discussion and subject to change, but what does everyone else think? Should IQ be better or worse or just trashed?
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Old 05-02-2017, 05:00 AM   #2
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Honestly, I say scrap it.

Having said that... your rewards list is a vast improvement. And if we made it that gummies had a minimum boost of, say, +5 (so it took a maximum of 20 gummies to max stat) perhaps I might feel more inclined towards them.

As gummies had classically stood, however, I didn't ever use them. I even neglected them on Appreciation Days. There simply was no way I was going to feed 100 pieces of candy to my Pokémon for some meh boosts and a CM. (I don't even use CMs!)

I might could be persuaded to feed twenty pieces of candy to my Pokémon for some decent boosts and a CM (which I still won't use) though. Might. ;P

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Old 05-02-2017, 10:02 AM   #3
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I'm on a different boat than Tate- I'd like to see them stay around. I've always been a fan of the IQ system in Explorers of Time/Darkness/Sky and was a little disappointed that the correlation here wasn't quite so... effective? Granted, a lot of the canon IQ skills wouldn't be too helpful here due to the nature of the game, but things like Intimidator, Defender, and even Counter Striker could've easily been translated and would've certainly provided incentive to gather a good few gummis for a pokemon.

That being said, I know full well how much of a pain in the butt it would be to try to apply the canon system into a text-based role-playing game. One would have to dig out all the skills that serve no purpose in FB (Energy Saver and House Avoider, I'm looking at you), reorganize the skills within the IQ Groups accordingly, then place newer pokemon into groups from scratch (I believe the IQ system has been abandoned, but don't quote me on that). That's a lot of effort that ultimately just makes things overwhelmingly complicated for no reason- which is probably why our rendition was so pitiful to begin with!

Thus, GS' lists seem to me to a very solid compromise between the two: they have the simplicity of our old system whilst adding some of the potency from the PMD games. Naturally, the second list is more appealing to me, but it is worth noting that milage will certainly vary between pokemon. Merciless toxapex, for example, will only make use of the crit rate increase against Poison and Steel types unless it has help from an ally with Corrosion. Still, that's the price one has to pay to make something that would be awesome for the majority of over 800 critters!

As for the gummis themselves, I definitely agree that they need to either become more common or more effective. Getting to 100 IQ is already a massive chore, and having more people attempting to make use of the new and improved reward system will only spread our already thin resources even thinner! If we do get a Coin-based luxury shop up and running, slipping a few in there should help alleviate the strain somewhat, but whether or not that happens is still highly up in the air at the moment. Maybe we should wait for everything else to settle out before getting to this detail, given how minor it currently is...?
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Old 05-02-2017, 10:04 AM   #4
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Im with Tate
I Did not ever CARE about IQ except for what it looked like figuatively (ie smart pokemon having a higher IQ) .I think there are other ways to get those rewards (what is STAB anyway?)
So my vote goes to scrap it.
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Old 05-02-2017, 10:14 AM   #5
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The issue with IQ as a name is that it was supposed to reflect a pokemon's experience as an adventurer- which it admittedly did a halfway 'decent' job of doing in game. Still, the name is highly misleading (I never thought it fit, either) and a good few of the of the Skills had very little to do with exploration and everything to do with being brutal in combat (such as Erratic Player). As for how Critical Hits relate, that's pretty simple: the Type-Advantage Master and Sharp Shooter skills both increased the pokemon's crit rate while the Critical Dodger one negated them. It actually does make sense if you know the source material~!

EDIT: It has come to my attention that backed crit rate when Kawaii had referred to STAB (Same Type Attack Bonus, by the way). Oops. Though, it does bring up that there isn't anything very 'Adaptable' about doing the things you do well even better. Guess all sorts of things have been misnamed, huh?

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Old 05-02-2017, 10:29 AM   #6
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The current problem with IQ is that the system was created as a nod to the PMD series, and the boons just aren't anywhere near good enough. Resistance to status? Alright. Gummi Bomb? A respectable move that's hindered by being a physical Future Sight in essence. The capture thing? No longer relevant. Slight boost to STAB moves? Too small to be of use. Defensive Shield? Completely situational and RNG based that has never seen use at all.

The biggest flaw with the old system is the need of excess. Mysterious gummis were universal, but then your only other option was to use type specific gummis - which were very rare, event only and thus mod-controlled - for a pitiful +1 boost to IQ.

That boost is insulting given that in the games gummis gave IQ boosts depending on the type of gummi, with same-type gummis giving the biggest boost and gummis the user's weak to giving more of a boost than resists. Heck, there's even a list of how each boost worked, with the max boost for a same-type gummi being +5.

If we do opt to keep the system, we first need to sort out IQ boosts and how to obtain gummis easier, rather than just from events. My initial proposal for this is as follows.

Same-type Gummis give +5 IQ.
Super-effective Gummis give +4 IQ.
Neutral Gummis give +3 IQ.
Resisted Gummis give +2 IQ.
Immune Gummis give +1 IQ.
Mysterious Gummis get their name changed to Wonder Gummis (as they are canonically known) and give +5 IQ regardless of type.
Dual typed pokemon may only gain one boost from a gummi on their type, and SE types take priority over resistances and immunities. Gligar for instance eating a Yellow Gummi would get a +4 boost as the Flying type weakness to Electric overrides the Ground immunity, while the same pokemon eating a Clear Gummi would also get +4, and not +8 from double weakness to Ice.
The Fairy type Gummi would be called the Bubble Gummi, just for pun, and a pale pink.

Of course, for high IQ we also require extra bonuses that will affect the pokemon, as well as a rework for both Gummi Bomb and Defensive Shield. GS's thoughts on a 10 IQ system works well, and I'd like to give my own proposition, with explanations that fit a more intelligent pokemon in {braces.}

10 IQ: -10% energy consumption on STAB Moves. {The pokemon would be more conservative over their energy usage and able to output the same damage on their own type while using reduced energy.}
20 IQ: 10% chance to cure static status conditions such as poison and paralysis at the end of the round. {The pokemon would be wiser to how the status affects them and how to treat it in a pinch. This also has a nod towards Pokemon Refresh's self-healing.}
30 IQ: The user learns the ability Gummi Bomb. {No difficulty here, see below for proposed rewrite.}
40 IQ: The damage done by offtype moves is boosted by 10%. {The pokemon becomes more adept with moves of unfamiliar type, and how they work.}
50 IQ: -20% consumption of energy on STAB moves. {The pokemon masters their own type and commands greater efficiency over their own skills.}
60 IQ: The pokemon learns Guardian Emera. {This replaces Defensive Shield, and will be described below, as well as being a nod to PSMD.}
70 IQ: Critical hit damage taken is reduced by 25%. {The pokemon learns how to withstand painful blows and surprise hits on sensitive spots, and this listed damage is a reduction to the overall crit bonus, not the actual attack: an attack of base 100 power critting for an extra 100 damage for a total of 200 base damage, would instead do an extra 75 damage for a total of 175 damage.}
80 IQ: -10% energy consumption on offtype moves. {The pokemon at this stage is wise to their moves, and can now operate their unfamiliar moves as well as their same typed ones, though their STAB moves remain stronger.}
90 IQ: Critical hit damage taken is reduced by 50%. {That 200 damage on crit? That's now 150, akin to gen 6+ crits. This is covered by the pokemon now being aware of how to defend against critical strikes.}
100 IQ: +20% damage done by STAB moves, -10% damage taken by neutrally effective moves, and the user learns the move Magnagate Burst. {The big carrot on the IQ stick, this gives the pokemon who's as learned as they come absolute mastery over their own typing, allowing them to gain extra oomph in their attacks, while having less fear over neutral attacks, giving them a small resistance to them. On top of this, they learn a great new move that references GtI.}

So, those move revamps?

Gummi Bomb(physical)
The user creates a bomblet of their latent inner energy and throws it at the foe, doing moderate damage. The move's type is dependant on the user's own hidden power.

So Hidden Power exists and is special. Here's the physical variant.

Guardian Emera(Status)
Drawing power from the land and its own energy, the user enchants the ground, creating a crystalline droplet that attaches itself to the user. The droplet grants the user complete control of their element, greatly reducing energy costs for the user's STAB moves down to 50%, and can be thrown at the foe to reduce each of their stats by one stage, destroying the emera. The droplet lasts for four attacks regardless of those being STAB or not, after which it will crumble to dust. This technique consumes considerable energy, and can only be used once per battle, and the emera can be destroyed by a direct strike from the foe.

Right, so Super Myster Dungeon's a great game, and emera are temporary items, so why not implement them as an IQ move? You can choose to use it as a debuff or to go all-out with your best moves. The limit of 4 moves is to balance the fact a Charmander can call it and then Fire Blast 4 times while only using the energy for two, and it only works for STAB moves as the emera is linked to the pokemon. It beats the RNG nature of Defensive Shield while keeping the IQ tie to PMD strongly.

Magnagate Burst(Special)
The user focuses before drawing on their energy to create a magnagate that leads to a mass of energy that bursts out of the magnagate at all targets, inflicting major damage. The magnagate will remain open for three turns, during which the energy will continue to burst at the targets for considerable damage, before closing. The damage ignores all resistances and immunities of the foe, and the user has complete control of the magnagate, and may use the energy burst to restore their own health. The opponent may attack the magnagate, which can be destroyed. This technique is draining on the user, both physically and mentally, and can only be used once per battle, and the user may only use the move as a single action.

The big one, Magnagate Burst is basically the max IQ Z-move for those who know it all. It's basically the pokemon summoning a great big cannon to fire at the foe, doing one huge strike at the start as strong as a blast move, followed by 3 smaller but still painful hits as strong as the likes of the elemental punches, one per round. The balance is the fact it's a one-rounder, and the huge energy costs (we're speaking one and a half hyper beams here) to use it, but the power to hit everything that opposes you with a dimensional blast from god-knows-where more than makes up for it. You want something to look forward to in the grind to 100? Here's a typeless Z-move for you that you can use with your own Z-move!
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Old 05-02-2017, 01:09 PM   #7
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I agree with everything Raves suggested, up to and including the Bubble Gummi, because awesome pun is awesome. Guardian Emera and Magnagate Burst sound like cool moves, and I kinda like the idea of turning Gummi Bomb into the long-awaited physical Hidden Power.

Two questions.

1: Would Gummi Bomb need to be the same type as the Pokémon's Hidden Power if it knows Hidden Power already? My guess is yes, but since two of the three Pokémon of mine that know Gummi Bomb also know Hidden Power, I'd like to make sure.

2: Would a Pokémon that knows Defensive Shield simply lose that move in favor of Guardian Emera and Magnagate Burst, or would it keep the move in addition to the others?

On another note, relevant to Defensive Shield, I had an idea for reworking it- basically retooling it into a combination of Light Screen and Reflect. Like Aurora Veil, but not dependent on the weather. I was also thinking renaming it to Smart Shield. I mean, if we do end up scrapping it for Raves's new ideas, I'm more than fine with that, but if we do keep Defensive Shield, I want to get that idea of mine out there for consideration.
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Old 05-14-2017, 11:55 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raves View Post
Now you mention gummis, having a thread themed on Pokenfectionary would be pretty fun to have. We can have it be a standalone thread in the shops, and -potentially- have it so you can collect a weekly gummi of your choice (save Wonder/Mysterious Gummis) much like the Department Store's weekly candy.

Copied over from the Candy Store discussion thread.

I think this would be a solid step towards balancing out the number problems with the previous IQ system, so it's got my interest there. My initial hesitation with it was that the numbers could get pretty absurd if this was combined with Raves' previous suggestions, but... outside of events and generous ZUs, this would be the only way to get gummis. Meanwhile, levels crop up in every event, multiple zones, a free candy every week, and two a week in a shop dedicated specifically to level ups! I would still suggest knocking the IQ increases to simply +1/+2/+3 for the sake of having some sort of limit on it, but that would be stepping on the toes of the source material and we've done enough of that with the shadow pokemon. 'Tis just a thought on the matter.
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Old 05-14-2017, 02:05 PM   #9
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I think, if we implement a free weekly gummi, we should hold off on making them give multiple IQ points until we see where we're at in terms of average IQ gains per month, and if it's still not enough we can then adjust how much IQ the gummis give. It may not look like much of an influx of gummis, but after going through years of gummis being event/birthday only occurrences, changing them from an irregular to regular item can be a pretty big deal, and weekly gummis can add up very quickly. I would also like to add that, since we're mostly in agreement about increasing IQ rewards from 5 to 10, each IQ threshold is much easier to obtain when combined with the idea of a weekly gummi. With that in mind, having gummis give multiple IQ points on top of that starts to look silly. If I'm wrong, we can always fix it then, but I would rather we make a few changes to the system and add things in later as opposed to changing a bunch of stuff at once and then going back on some things after finding out we did too much.
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Old 05-15-2017, 11:01 AM   #10
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Here are my opinions on the issue:

Keep IQ. It's a fun and neat way to improve your Pokemon.

IQ should have better incentives. Right now its not worth much more than a simple number and I think that should change. This means old perks are going to be revamped or even removed. Perks shouldn't just be milestone related but also should be scaling to IQ. I have a couple of ideas I would like to flesh out before I post them though.

Gummis should give +5 IQ. Period. +1 is a little ridiculous.

I am for a weekly Mysterious Gummis (I'm not calling them Wonder Gummis).
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Old 05-15-2017, 12:09 PM   #11
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I'm in agreement with all of Emi's points, except for not wanting to call them Wonder Gummis. If this was an FB-exclusive item we were making up ourselves, that's one thing, but we're talking a canon item that's in the official games. Mysterious Gummi is the translation of the Japanese name. The English name is Wonder Gummi. I for one would be all for changing it to that- that's one thing that's always bugged me about how FB has handled IQ.

Also, I was thinking- what about the possibility of making our own Gummis out of Berries? It could be an added feature of the Pokétreat Store.
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Old 05-15-2017, 01:13 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emi View Post
Gummis should give +5 IQ. Period. +1 is a little ridiculous.

I am for a weekly Mysterious Gummis (I'm not calling them Wonder Gummis).
I think having weekly gummis give +5 IQ is just ridiculous. Either we have weekly gummis that give +1, maybe +2-3 IQ, or have +5 gummis once a month (which would still be numerically better than weekly +1 gummis!). Otherwise, we have a very similar problem that we did with the old Beauty Salon: BP was maxed out quite quickly without much effort on the player's part, except in this case it's IQ, and suddenly, if we're going with the 10 perk system, one Pokemon can reach a single perk in two weeks.
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Old 05-21-2017, 10:43 AM   #13
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Okay so I have a couple of ideas on IQ rewards that I want to get some feedback on as well as set-up potential other ideas. Right now, the only incentive to raising your IQ is milestones, which are fine but I think having effects that scale with your IQ level is also a neat feature.

Additional Experience: When you gain a level in Fizzy Bubble during roleplay, there is an (IQ)% chance that you will gain a state called "Additional Exp" or maybe something else like SUPER GROWTH or what not. If you get this state twice, you gain an additional level. So essentially at 100 IQ, you get 3 levels for every 2 levels you get in RP.

Pick-Up: So currently I'm not even really sure what Pick Up does in FB (or half of the abilities, honestly), so I wanted to have a nice little system based on IQ for it. Every update you get from an updator (this can be adjusted) there is a (IQ / 10)% chance to pick up an item using the most current pick-up pool. Whether we keep the idea of rarity or not I'm not sure (I lean towards no simply because there is a lot of rewards to get), but essentially, at IQ level 100, you have a 10% chance for Pick Up to proc. In place of levels, what you pick up will also be determined by your IQ and will be cumulative. You won't miss potential items by being IQ level 100, but rather have a chance to pick-up the entire chart.

I like GS's milestone chart personally, except I like the idea of Gummi Bomb as a move, so it should be there somewhere.
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Old 05-21-2017, 10:54 AM   #14
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I'm all for both of these ideas. The second one would be good especially, since in old FB, if memory serves, Tess has outright stated that Pickup had no effect.
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Old 05-21-2017, 11:02 AM   #15
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I looked up the Pickup ability, and it seems to scale with level, not IQ. That's what I would prefer to go with, especially with some people still not too interested in raising IQ. As for additional EXP, that system looks fine, except it doesn't address things for Pokemon at Lv. 100; maybe they get a bonus move?
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Old 05-21-2017, 01:48 PM   #16
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Quote:
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I looked up the Pickup ability, and it seems to scale with level, not IQ. That's what I would prefer to go with, especially with some people still not too interested in raising IQ. As for additional EXP, that system looks fine, except it doesn't address things for Pokemon at Lv. 100; maybe they get a bonus move?
I would rather not put weight on leveling if we don't have to, and considering that, according to MM, Pick Up didn't do anything in the first place, its an easy thing to slide into the IQ scale. IQ is fine as a replacement.

Also I'm not a fan of giving Level 100 Pokemon an extra bonus, we don't need to do that for everything.
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Old 06-02-2017, 05:06 PM   #17
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For the sake a facilitating discussion with canon as a basis, I'm going to leave the canon IQ Skill list here (I couldn't find anything that gave the actual groupings in a format that made sense, so the links attached to that page will have to do). I've already expressed my thoughts on these earlier in the thread, so I'm really just doing this so that everyone else is on a similarly informed page as me.

Beyond that, feel free to discuss as usual.
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Old 06-02-2017, 07:06 PM   #18
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Well, going off what MedMana has linked, here are the IQ Skills that look like they could be of real use to FB:

PP Saver: Sometimes gets to use a move without draining PP. We can obviously substitute PP for energy in FB terms, including type energy. The odds of this happening would have to be discussed, probably no more than 25% is my thinking.
Cheerleader: Raises Attack and Special Attack of friends by 1. This would only be useful for multi battle formats, but it could still be nice in addition to a main perk.
Type-Advantage Master: Raises critical hit rate of type-effective moves.
Bodyguard: Takes damage in place of friends who are low on HP. Again, only effective in multi battle formats, but might be a nice add-on to another main perk.
Wise Healer: Raises effectiveness of HP-recovery moves/items. I'm not a big fan of this being part of the Skills we use, it's pretty specific, and HP recovery is already powerful enough as is.
Practice Swinger: Raises attacks stats by 1 only for the turn after a move misses. This one actually seems interesting, we can possibly just plug this skill in as is (basically a free Work Up for one turn if you miss).
Concentrator: Raises accuracy by 1 and reduces evasion by 1. This is another interesting skill, though we'd have to discuss whether we make it something we want to toggle on/off depending on choices.
Nonsleeper: Immune to all sleep-inducing/related moves. We may need a discussion on whether this skill devalues the Insomnia/Vital Spirit abilities before including it.
Defender: Raises Defense and Special Defense by 1 but lowers Attack and Special Attack by 1. Like Concentrator, this could be a toggle skill opted into for certain battles.
Aggressor: Attack and Sp. Attack raises by 1 and Defense and Sp. Defense are lowered by 1. See Defender/Concentrator.
Sharp Shooter: Raises critical-hit ratio. We already have this skill listed as a possible perk of mine to reach, so this could likely be added in some form anyway.
Counter Hitter: Sometimes counters 1/4 of the damage received back to the adjacent opponent. Another interesting skill, though we'd have to talk about how likely this happens.
Erratic Player: Increases multiplier effect of type-effective damage. This could turn super-effective moves from x2 into x3 damage.
Clutch Performer: Raises evasion by 2 when under 25% of max HP. Another interesting possibility, especially in situations where healing isn't allowed.
Critical Dodger: Immunity to critical hits. May devalue Battle Armor/Shell Armor too much, but it's worthy for discussion.
Intimidator: Sometimes makes foe cringe when they attack. There'd be a couple of things to discuss on this skill: what would the odds be of this skill working, and does it only work when the Pokemon is hit by an attack?
No-Charger: Automatically uses charged attack without delay at the cost of 2PP. This one is very specific, but unlike Wise Healer it isn't as game-breaking especially given the fact it would essentially double the energy cost to use an attack like Skull Bash immediately.

So some of these skills bring up some very important discussion ideas:
1) Do we want our IQ skill list to only include stuff that all Pokemon can use consistently, or do we want to mix it up and give certain IQ skills to some Pokemon while giving different IQ skills to others?
2) Do we want to make IQ skills follow an XCOM style format and allow the player to choose between 2-3 different IQ skills for their Pokemon when they reach a certain IQ level?
3) The idea of groups of Pokemon having completely different skills sounds interesting, but we would have to figure out where the Gen 5-7 Pokemon fit in those groups. Is this an option we want to use?
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Old 06-02-2017, 07:18 PM   #19
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I have way more to say about this but some of those abilities or whatever they're called are so unbelievably busted in the context of a game like Fizzy Bubbles which is an entirely different type of game than Mystery Dungeon in terms of mechanics and systems.

This needs to be kept in mind. Some of those are just beyond OP, like All-Terrain Hiker? Or Absolute Mover? No Charger? Sure-Hit Attacker?

And how would ZUs be expected to keep track of all of this in an adventure for someone and take all of them into account with every update? Beyond crazy, sorry.

I just really don't know how to feel about this. I think we can probably reach a compromise but a straight implementation of the way PMD has it just sounds like the largest headache on earth.

Last edited by deoxys; 06-03-2017 at 01:06 AM.
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Old 06-02-2017, 08:01 PM   #20
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I never intended this to be a call for direct implementation -see the quote below- but a base for discussion as a whole. I fully admit that the system doesn't translate well into FB at all, but since the folks over at the Discord chat had forgotten that the original skills were even divided into groups, I figured a bit of a refresher was probably a good idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedMana View Post

That being said, I know full well how much of a pain in the butt it would be to try to apply the canon system into a text-based role-playing game. One would have to dig out all the skills that serve no purpose in FB (Energy Saver and House Avoider, I'm looking at you), reorganize the skills within the IQ Groups accordingly, then place newer pokemon into groups from scratch (I believe the IQ system has been abandoned, but don't quote me on that). That's a lot of effort that ultimately just makes things overwhelmingly complicated for no reason- which is probably why our rendition was so pitiful to begin with.

Now I'll go ahead and do some clarification for the ones GS singled out:

The ones that have percent chances to trigger, like Counter-Hitter and Intimidator, had a really high proc rate in-game; I wasn't aware that the former even had a chace to not work in the first place! Knocking their rates down is probably a really good idea as an initial edit, probably to Stench levels (10%).

Intimidator has another significant detail to note: attacks that are guarenteed to hit, like Swift and Aura Sphere, are not affected by it. It's literally the main reason I was able to beat the final boss the first time...

Erratic Player is actually more complex than the description suggests. All non-neutral type interactions are heightened, including resistances (for reference, attacks a pokemon was immune to by type in the main games were treated as 4x resistances in PMD). It's also similar to the No-Guard Ability in that it also affects the opponents' attacks against you. I've lost count of the number of times Giratina has beaten my drifblim because I forgot to switch this off first- it's a bit of an issue.

Finally, I'd like to make note of the Time Tripper skill. It's exclusive to IQ Group J, which only has two pokemon in it: Dialga (time is its domain, after all) and Darkrai (for story reasons I won't go into). This wasn't just a capstone skill, it was a capstone skill for the cream of the crop! Now, that's not likely to be too much of an issue in Fizzby, especially since increased Speed isn't as game-breaking here as it is the Rogue-like genre as a whole, but it is something worth considering if legendary exclusivity is something we want to worry about for some reason.

Lastly, I'd like to bring back up the 'Skill Tree' suggestion that came up in the Discord chat. We could have a few milestone points be cases where you can choose one of two or three effects on a case-by-case basis; after all, Armaldos aren't very appreciative of Critical Dodger and Merciless!Toxapex won't get much use out of having improved crit rates! I am aware that this might complicate the system a bit, but it doesn't have to be at every milestone- attacks are safe and every pokemon can appreciate improved STAB. This, if anything, is something I'd like to see more thoughts on!
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Old 06-02-2017, 09:34 PM   #21
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I've been keeping quiet on the subject of gummis and the IQ system for a long time, and I'm going to voice what is perhaps an unpopular opinion: The IQ system is unnecessary in FB and is ultimately detrimental for the purposes of a RP based narrative. First and foremost, a bit of context regarding its inception: like the TCG, the community wasn't really even asking for this prior to it being brought over; the system was implemented by the old mods on a whim, and a bit shoddily at that, which is one of the reasons it never took off. The implications here are that: 1) RPing adventures in zones was gratifying enough as is without them; and 2) feeding gummis where never relevant for a good RP experience, and rather, only served as another trophy of sorts for your Pokemon to have - more stats to brag about, if you will.

What I see now is an attempt to make gummis stay by making its benefits more attractive with skill advantages and boosted % increases and whatnot, and it's this where I have a genuine problem with. As far as I know, FB isn't a game based on fixed numbers and dice rolls. And, given that I saw mention of energy based resources, I'd like to say that FB isn't ASB either (even if it sounds obvious, it has to be stated). One of the central aspects of FB is its emphasis on the narrative aspect of the game, and when you start piling on game mechanic on top of game mechanic on top of another, then you inevitably start getting in the way of providing a streamlined RP experience. In other words: simpler is better when it comes to RPing.

Consider the following scenarios: Say, for instance, you're a veteran trainer with an OP maxed-out Pokemon, and your updator throws a couple grunts in your way. Which feels better: a) spending 4 or more turns of being "reffed" ASB style, or b) simply one-shotting them down like the badass that you're supposed to be?

Or say you're a starting trainer and you get involved on a Rattata v. Caterpie match-up, would you like: a) back to back tackles for 3 rounds or b) one, or even up to two posts, depicting the creatures actually wrestling, scratching and biting one another with some bolded named moves in between?

Or lastly, say you're facing a big bad boss at the end of your adventure, do you want to see how it pans out purely on rng rolls, or would rather trust your storyteller to choreograph an interesting sequence for you?

All of what these scenarios seek to do is weigh how much you want FB to be like a videogame or tabletop experience, or how much would you rather it be a more cinematic and immersive experience. The way I see it, regardless of how it goes, what matters is that the narrative you get is interesting, and frankly, the direction this is taking I can envision as providing an extra hurdle to this, on top of breaking immersion, if not for you, then perhaps for your storyteller him/herself. Because yeah, how much your storyteller is invested in your story matters too.

It might be too late to ask for gummis to be scrapped out entirely, but I would at least ask that, regardless of what you do with them, that one always considers first and foremost the kind of role-play that one is supposed to experience because of this.

Last edited by Balmund; 06-03-2017 at 03:25 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old 06-02-2017, 11:35 PM   #22
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Wrote up a proposal. Common themes among this thread and other discussion is 1. Wanting to avoid statistics or percentages and 2. Not putting a burden on others.

On how this system goes into place: IQ and Beauty Points get the boot. Both are replaced by this system. 1 Beauty Point converts into 5 Link, and 1 IQ is equal to 1 Link. A problem I might see arise is that a lot of people gave IQ to their Pokemon to represent the Pokemon's intelligence, and this system very much so is not related to that.

I am not creative enough to come up with enough of these, but remember the rules of No Numbers and making it something that you deal with, not SOs/ZUs.


Bond - As your Pokemon bonds with you, they gain bonuses. Bond is measured on the scale of Links, like a chain that holds a trainer and their Pokemon together. There are 100 levels of Link to travel through before a trainer and their Pokemon are considered to be in perfect sync.

Link is gained through adventuring with your Pokemon and the use of Gummis. Every zone reply that you use a Pokemon in grants them 1 Link. Gummis grant 2 Link. Link can also be given as a reward to particularly good roleplay displaying the bond or development of a relationship between trainer and Pokemon, though never more than 3, and usually roughly 1 if at all.

0 Link: This Pokemon is new to you and your team. You gain no special bonuses.

10 Link: ?

20 Link: You and your Pokemon understand how one another trains. This Pokemon will level up one more time whenever they level up in a zone. This is applied when you confirm the level up in a reply, meaning the Zone Updator does not have to acknowledge this bonus.

30 Link: You and your Pokemon learn from each other. Your Pokemon learns a TM move of your choice.

40 Link: The bond between you and your Pokemon is clear to others, and other people commend you for it. Any Zone reply that includes this Pokemon grants an extra 50 Pokedollars. (idk about this one. feels annoying for whoever runs the Bank.)

50 Link: This Pokemon believes in you, and you believe in them. If this Pokemon has a Happiness-based evolution, they can now evolve.

60 Link: Your Pokemon pushes their own limits for your sake. When your Pokemon is affected by a status condition, you can choose for them to not be affected by it any more, as they shrug it off for your sake. This bonus can only be used once in any particular adventure.

70 Link: Your Pokemon seeks to train harder than ever for you, even when you aren't around. When you drop this Pokemon off at the Daycare, any amount of levels they would gain is doubled. This bonus occurs after you pick them up, meaning the Shop Owner does not have to acknowledge this bonus.

80 Link:

90 Link: You understand the essence of your Pokemon, and the two of you learn to harness it together. This Pokemon learns any one move of your choice.

100 Link: (Considered a special Z-move or something. idk. help.)
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Old 06-03-2017, 01:15 AM   #23
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Alright. I was going to write up a whole post, but now I don't have to, because Balmund did it for me.

The only thing I would have to add is that for the people who do want something out of the IQ system, and I know a few of you definitely feel extremely passionate about it, as I said earlier, I wouldn't mind some sort of potential compromise. What exactly, I have no idea. I don't want anyone to feel like they are being left behind or ignored on some level, even if the reality is that I think ultimately the final outcome of FB's soft-reboot will leave everyone feeling like they had to settle for something they perhaps didn't want to settle for. I would be shocked if there is one among us by the end who wouldn't still change something if they could, but negotiation and compromise on some proposals and changes are the only ways we as a community are going to come out on the other side without issue in order to fit the needs of the community, not the individual. I know what some of you might be thinking; that's stupid coming from me, given I have so many strong opinions (ie. UPC mon). Just because I have strong opinions on some topics and not others doesn't mean I'm not also aware of the reality of things, as I just stated, and I will continue to have the opinions that I do in spite of that as well as in recognition of it.

So, I will reiterate: On this particular issue, Balmund summed up my personal opinion for me better than I could have articulated, and I have nothing further to add at this time.

Edit: I lied, though not perfect, toy has some good ideas. It wouldn't be a terrible starting point for a compromise.

Last edited by deoxys; 06-03-2017 at 01:24 AM.
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Old 06-03-2017, 03:22 AM   #24
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Okay, let's say we go with Tyoyo's proposed system. Would having a weekly Gummi from the Candy Store devalue the progression of this system? That's pretty much the one question I have regarding how you get Link Points. As for the list of perks, I'll go ahead and put my own input here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyoyo3131 View Post
0 Link: This Pokemon is new to you and your team. You gain no special bonuses.
Obvious truth is obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyoyo3131 View Post
10 Link: ?
Maybe the Pokemon could get an Egg/MT move here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyoyo3131 View Post
20 Link: You and your Pokemon understand how one another trains. This Pokemon will level up one more time whenever they level up in a zone. This is applied when you confirm the level up in a reply, meaning the Zone Updator does not have to acknowledge this bonus.
I'm not quite sure yet how I feel about bonus rewards that don't require some form of approval by someone, although technically, if the ZU really wants to make sure you aren't just BSing, they could look at your profile, see that your Pokemon has 20+ LP, and then...approve it afterward? I don't know, I might be seeing this walking a fine line that isn't there, but at the same time I'm not quite sure what else could belong at the 20 LP level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyoyo3131 View Post
30 Link: You and your Pokemon learn from each other. Your Pokemon learns a TM move of your choice.
Would this have to be a TM from the Pokemon's natural movepool or not? Or a TM from the current gen? Or past gens? Personally, I'd say it could be any TM that ever existed just for consistency's sake, but that might seem a bit much for an early LP level for some people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyoyo3131 View Post
40 Link: The bond between you and your Pokemon is clear to others, and other people commend you for it. Any Zone reply that includes this Pokemon grants an extra 50 Pokedollars. (idk about this one. feels annoying for whoever runs the Bank.)
I agree with your hesitation about this one, it does seem like a pain to keep track of which Pokemon have 40+ LP and which don't just for the sake of confirming Pokedollar balances. I'd actually like to see Raves's version of Gummi Bomb in this slot instead, though maybe it needs a different name because it isn't completely dependent on Gummis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyoyo3131 View Post
50 Link: This Pokemon believes in you, and you believe in them. If this Pokemon has a Happiness-based evolution, they can now evolve.
Maybe with this we can add that Pokemon that have Mega Evolutions are able to Mega Evolve? Lopunny is a great example for why these two things should be at the same level: it sure would be a pain to go through 50 LP worth of gains to evolve from Buneary and then have to gain more LP just to be eligible for Mega Lopunny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyoyo3131 View Post
60 Link: Your Pokemon pushes their own limits for your sake. When your Pokemon is affected by a status condition, you can choose for them to not be affected by it any more, as they shrug it off for your sake. This bonus can only be used once in any particular adventure.
I actually like this one as is, it isn't something that can be abused very easily, and it serves a very useful function.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyoyo3131 View Post
70 Link: Your Pokemon seeks to train harder than ever for you, even when you aren't around. When you drop this Pokemon off at the Daycare, any amount of levels they would gain is doubled. This bonus occurs after you pick them up, meaning the Shop Owner does not have to acknowledge this bonus.
Again, I'm on the fence about bonus levels being gained without the need for SO approval, and because it's specifically Daycare related the Pokemon wouldn't get any gain out of it after reaching Lv. 100. Maybe this is where Raves's Guardian Emera move can be put instead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyoyo3131 View Post
80 Link: ?
I would actually like to see the 90 LP perk be brought here instead, and maybe we can have it give any move of their choice, including FB Custom Moves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyoyo3131 View Post
90 Link: You understand the essence of your Pokemon, and the two of you learn to harness it together. This Pokemon learns any one move of your choice.
For this tier, I'd actually have it be something like, "You and your Pokemon are so bonded that other wild Pokemon see it too and are more willing to join you. Pokemon found in zones require shorter adventures to be captured." We'd have to figure out what defines a "shorter adventure", but it'd be a good possibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyoyo3131 View Post
100 Link: (Considered a special Z-move or something. idk. help.)
Actually, this could be where the player can make up a custom move for their Pokemon, not sure if it should be a Z-move or not since that would require 1) making a new Z Crystal for that Z-move and 2) requiring the Pokemon to hold that item when they might want to hold a different item like a Mega Stone. (although that may be an interesting tradeoff to consider)

*************

So overall I'm quite interested in Tyoyo's idea, it could be a great way to merge IQ and Happiness and make it so there's one less stat to keep track of. Any more thoughts on this?

@Balmund/Deoxys: I can see the sentiment for not wanting to keep track of extra stuff, though to your point about FB not being a game about numbers and RNG I say that something about battles needs to be quantified, otherwise how would either the ZU or the player know for certain when the battle ends? And without some sort of RNG (fudged or not), what does the ZU even use to keep things fair? Sure, the ZU can say, "Oh, I'll just let the player win at everything eventually," but that's not particularly interesting now, is it? I personally keep that a secret. I've had a lot of fun using RNG and discovering that Pokemon scored a critical hit (and an occasional critical fumble), it's a great tool I use in updating to reflect epic moments during a battle. Honestly, I don't mind the numbers being canonically fudged because a Pokemon has a certain skill that allows them to do that, and others might not, it's a tough call. However--and this addresses Deoxys's point--some people have already invested enough into IQ that they actually have certain Pokemon know the custom moves they got from it like Gummi Bomb. Sure, most of the other perks that Pokemon have received over the years can maybe be done away with, but we can't just say those custom moves are gone from those Pokemon. And for people who have stockpiled gummis over the years (like me) and haven't used them before the IQ shop closed, do the gummis just go to waste now (or can they just be turned into Rare Candies)?

I'd like to be able to do something with those gummis, and maybe there's a better way to simplify FB than to just scrap IQ. It does, in a way, go back to the argument I made with coins, but gummis weren't completely handed out willy-nilly like coins were, so I have hope that there's less of an argument to scrap gummis. Again, I think Tyoyo may have a good solution to simplify FB without completely gutting something that I actually think has a place here (unlike coins ).
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Old 06-03-2017, 04:04 AM   #25
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Now, I'm not saying an adventure should be 100% rng free (as a tool, rolling the dice has many uses), but, given that from the player's perspective all they do is make decisions and let the storyteller "roll the die" for them, storytellers might as well be using their subjective judgement for all the calls during an adventure and the player wouldn't be able to tell the difference one bit. That's the thing, you don't know for certain whether you got a crit naturally or because your updater felt like it because of hype and plot progression, or anything else really. Nobody demands proof, and nobody needs it, because what ultimately matters is the pacing and content of a story. Honestly, I personally trust my storyteller's good judgement a lot more than I trust rng. A good storyteller doesn't have to "let" you win all the time, by the way. Both victory and loss are tools that help make an interesting narrative, and a good writer knows how to use this well. An element of randomness is not needed to make something unexpected and exciting, although I guess it helps if one is truly undecided about a given outcome.

Regarding the accumulated savings of gummis players have already gathered so far, parallels have already been drawn with what happened with coins, and my personal stance is that, given that one got most of them from free giveaways, one shouldn't have much trouble getting rid of them just as easily. I understand this is not as easy for everyone. Some people don't have much trouble letting go, others not so much. As it's been said before, in the end, everyone's going to feel like they've settled for something instead of having it go exactly their way. That said, I also find Tyo's propoal as a great starting point for compromise, and it would help retain some value of accumulated gummi and IQ points so far.
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