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Old 04-27-2017, 07:04 PM   #1
Lil'twick
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Litwick The Future of CAP & Shadow Pokemon

A thread for two similar yet slightly diffetrnt topics.

First, CAP. Should we make it more frequent? Less? Keep it at every two years? Should we allw the winner to release their mon to the public? If yes previous winners? Should we allow people to update their mons to the newest gen?

Second, Shadows. Should we keep thrm, scrap them. If we keep them should we keep them event only, add them to zones, make the shadow eggs a potential rgg. Should they be rare, common? How do we assign shadow moves to newer mons?

Discuss away.
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Old 04-27-2017, 08:16 PM   #2
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UPC: I vote that we keep it an annual competition, minus the occasional years during which the old mods neglected to get it going. And I am absolutely all for the winner to be able to let their creation become available to the public. And I think it's only fair we afford this opportunity to the previous winners as well. Updating UPC winners to new generations could be tricky to keep track of, but I'm all for finding some way to make it possible.

Shadow Pokémon: KEEP. THEM. I may be the slightest bit biased due to my owning a Shadow Ledian, but yes- I think Shadow Pokémon should stick around. Maybe make them show up a bit more frequently- that is to say, more than just the occasional raffle. I like the idea of the Shadow Egg being a random possibility from the Egg House. Maybe make it somewhat rare. I have no problem with allowing players to catch Shadow Pokémon in zones- the only real question this raises, at least as far as I can see, is, would we keep the rule about only being allowed to contain them in a Shadow Ball? If yes, Shadow Balls should be obtainable and usable for capture. And as for moves, I see no reason to scrap the old system- two Shadow moves to start with, one new one every ten levels, and any unlearned ones at level 100. Any Shadow Pokémon obtained in zones that are at level 10 or above would obviously come with a corresponding number of Shadow moves- a level 11 Shadow Ekans, for instance, would have, like... Shadow Sky, Shadow Blitz, and Shadow Rave upon capture- the initial two Shadow moves, plus one for reaching level 10.

A new idea I'm bringing here- maybe find a way to make the legendary-exclusive Shadow moves accessible. Maybe allow them to be learned at level 100 along with any other unlearned Shadow moves, or perhaps via an in-zone move tutor, same as what's been suggested for event moves.

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Old 04-27-2017, 08:29 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Lil'twick View Post
First, CAP. Should we make it more frequent? Less? Keep it at every two years? Should we allw the winner to release their mon to the public? If yes previous winners? Should we allow people to update their mons to the newest gen?
UPC: I think once a year is fine. I'm not opposed to more frequent. There's nothing to "keep" at once every two years, it was once a year to begin with. I'm a pretty outspoken proponent of allowing people to "release" their UPCmons to the public, in all envisionable senses. (Allowing for breeding; allowing for zone encounters of wild UPCmons; allowing for Egg House hatches; etc.) As far as the past goes, I would say it's politest to honor the exclusivity of the Pokémon. Only make it publicly accessible if the person is around to give you the go-ahead. As far as the future goes, we have the power to make it a program policy that "All winning entries will be submitted to the public pool," etc, etc. Updating past entries to catch up to the present is without a doubt the trickiest question -- my heart says "YES", emphatically, but my mind questions if there wouldn't be problems with this. Current inclination is a modestly strong "Yes" vote.

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Second, Shadows. Should we keep thrm, scrap them. If we keep them should we keep them event only, add them to zones, make the shadow eggs a potential rgg. Should they be rare, common? How do we assign shadow moves to newer mons?
Shadow Pokémon: Shadow Pokémon have never appealed to me personally, and feel very dated at this juncture (as they were only ever a GameCube-era thing, and even then only in side games). So I wouldn't be opposed to doing away with them. That stated, their continued presence really isn't hurting anybody. If there are people who want to keep them, that's reason enough to keep them, to be perfectly honest. It's not as though being a Shadow Pokémon confers unfair advantages (outside of RP scenarios). It's not like it factors in meaningfully into Trainer Battles, for example.
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Old 04-27-2017, 08:54 PM   #4
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Hi Talon said virtually anything I'd ever want to say on UPC.

Will note that on updating it should probably be a thing with some sort of mod approval. Kind of a simple "okay don't add a billion broken moves" thing.
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Old 04-28-2017, 06:27 AM   #5
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UPC: While I do honestly lack a bit of room to speak here, what with never having participated in one myself, I do agree to keeping it around on an annual basis. I'm always down with creativity-based competitions (even if I occasionally flop at that regard) and this is the big one for FB. Heck, I actually had a couple ideas for the one that never occurred last year! I'd personally say that it should be up to the winner to decide whether their lil' critter will be released into the world or not. Sure, this might result in someone jealously hoarding every quesocoatl in the world to themselves, but look at the bright side- they could always change their mind! In a similar vein, it should be up to the creator to decide if the poke will get updated with the games' inexorable cycle. It could be entirely possible that none of the new moves fit their view of the critter, after all... There should be a couple logical limits here and there, and they definitely shouldn't be allowed to create a whole new evolution just because GF pulled a Sinnoh again and gave half the stage 1 pokemon a final (non-Mega) evolution. Just my 2 poke on that.

Shadow Pokemon: Please keep them! *Ahem* Truthe be told, part of the reason I finally decided to join this glorious mess was because I had come up with an idea for a shadow pokemon, right down to one of the starting shadow moves. Now, the chances of me ever getting that particular one are practically slim to none, but I'd still like to grab one at some point. They do present some a neato roleplaying opportunity I deffinitely wouldn't have considered to such an extent without them, and I personally like the subtle differences between the FB formula and the XD one. That said, I believe that Shadow blast shouldn't be added to our movepool. It's a reskinned Aeroblast, and we're kinda leaving that to lugia as it is... right? The other three I'm fine with making more accessable, though: they are the Boltbeam trio with a different flavor, after all. And we all know how prolific those are!
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Old 04-28-2017, 08:42 AM   #6
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UPC: Keep it around, once a year is good. One of the things I have planned for my character is discovering a new Electric Type this way as a means of propelling her into a more formal research career...so I need to start designing my idea!

Shadow Pokémon: Keep them around! They make for veeeery interesting RP (the tidbit about Stewie and the Onion Lover Pizzas from MM and I's ongoing Base interactions really sticks in my mind as hilarious). There'S no reason to change up anything that's been going on with them, really.
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Old 04-28-2017, 01:57 PM   #7
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I definitely support keeping Shadow Pokemon, not the least because I hope to have one of my own someday. I'd like if they remained harder to get than most other Pokemon, especially if they become available in zones, but otherwise, I think the current system mostly works for them? Aside from that, I haven't really given it much thought.
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Old 04-29-2017, 09:49 PM   #8
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Question- what would be the stance on breeding Shadow Pokémon? This is one of those things that the old mods have been inconsistent about- I remember one time seeing a response to the effect of a 5% chance for a Shadow parent to have Shadow offspring or something like that, and in more recent years, that was changed to just flat-out barring Shadow Pokémon from breeding altogether. This doesn't affect me, as my Shadow Ledian is currently in a relationship with my Pawniard, but I figured it's something that could conceivably come up in the future, so yeah, probably a good idea to work that out.
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Old 04-29-2017, 10:01 PM   #9
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I mean I have several questions, the first and most prominent being Ledian and Pawniard share an Egg group?!

(or wait does FB go by Egg groups? I never really knew)
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Old 04-29-2017, 10:12 PM   #10
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They do not share an Egg group, and FB does indeed go by Egg groups, which is why my Vileplume and Venomoth adopted my Amoonguss- I cited their relationship as the reason why this isn't going to affect me.
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Old 04-29-2017, 10:20 PM   #11
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Oh. Well that clears up the answers to the other several questions. My bad, it's late here and I didn't read carefully enough.

From a "professional" point of view, I don't know if Shadow Pokemon breeding could be a thing due to lore (since they are supposed to be all emotionless and closed off to the world or whatever), and if they do breed that their offspring probably won't develop the same issues due to the shadow aspect being an entirely artificial thing brought about by human influence (unless the parents neglect their offspring and induce a "natural" shadowfication...)

But personally as a lover of spice, I do think if they are (and they should) be allowed to breed that yes, they should have some small chance of passing down the "shadow gene" or whatever.
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Old 04-30-2017, 12:53 AM   #12
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Regarding the uodating of past CAP winning entries, the question I'd like to submit is what're the cons towards updating an entry? Is it about balance? Because, as far as I now, unlike the games, FB is mostly centered around adventuring and RP and stats are there mostly for show. It's not like they're too relevant in the limited PvP available, right? In addition, if we allow again the use of universal TMs, then the concept of learnsets itself becomes rather meaningless anyways. And also, what specifically does one mean by "updating" an entry to the current gens? Is it just a learnset update? New forms and evolutions? Changes on base stats?
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Old 04-30-2017, 09:58 AM   #13
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I believe what is meant by "updating" is basically just updating its learnset to the current gen, so we don't have people stuck with Gen 3 style mons 13 years after the fact. As far as I'm aware, there are no cons and this is something we should allow the owners of UPCmon to do. Base stats I think would be something similar considering how little of a heckie we give about them

As far as new forms and evolutions though... again, the spicy part of me wants to allow this, the rational side of me thinks that this should be something that's monitored in some way so we don't have some 6 stage evolution line + mega + 3 different babies depending on what day you bred the parent on. I don't want to say they should re-enter their pokemon with the updated evolution path to a contest since they've alredy won technically, but I can't think of a fair way to allow them to introduce new evolutions
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Old 04-30-2017, 10:50 AM   #14
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So here's an idea: Just as it was the community that voted for the contest winner, we should also have the comunity vote on ,and approve, of any changes to the entry. This should keep any updates within reasonable boundaries and allow them to undergo due process without having to participate through another competition. Besides, in theory, the entry would eventually be released for public use, so it makes sense to me that the comunity as a whole would have a say on which state any given new pokémon is reintroduced in.
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Old 04-30-2017, 11:54 AM   #15
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Regarding the updating of past CAP winning entries, the question I'd like to submit is what're the cons towards updating an entry?
The explanation that has been given in the past for not allowing after-the-fact changes to winning entries went along these lines: "People voted on the submitted entries. The changes that you make after winning could very well have been changes that would have tipped the scales against your favor." To give an easy enough example, say that my UPCmon was Genesect and say that someone else's was Clamperl. Genesect might have lost to Clamperl on the basis of, "He's too battle-y. I don't like that. Talon has given him too many Comp moves. This is supposed to be about RP. I like that Clamperl has these RP-friendly moves and is actually kinda limited for battle." Now, years later, you release the restrictions on UPCmons getting updated, and Clamperl's owner says, "Cool! 'Cause in the generations since I competed, they've introduced a lot of great moves that I think would work great on Clamperl! Let's see ... I want to add Shell Smash ... and Scald ... and Aqua Ring ... and ..." and they just keep adding all of these Comp moves to Clamperl. Now suddenly Genesect's not looking so bad, the playerbase is feeling duped, and I who entered Genesect am feeling a little cheated. That, I think, is what the staff was worried about previously. They didn't want bad blood between anybody, and they didn't want people to take advantage of the community's voting sensibilities.

Here's another easy-enough example. Say it's a year where the community is swinging towards the cute and Ken Sugimori-ey and they're swinging away from the Digimon-ey. So it's (say) Sunkern up against Zekrom in the finals, and the community votes 2:1 in favor of Sunkern. Now say the years go by and Game Freak has introduced some item, ability, or move which would realistically tie in with a ferocious and Digmon-looking evolution for any creature. The player decides to retcon this onto their Sunkern and lend him a new evolution which wasn't previously in the entry -- and this evolution is called Kyurem and looks like Kyurem. The people who voted for Sunkern on the basis of "He doesn't look like a Zekrom" would probably feel pretty duped to see the Sunkern winner now parading about his Kyurem.

With evos, my kneejerk response is to say, "It's easy to say 'no'." But is it really so easy? ^^; I mean, if we're going to allow retconning new moves, abilities, and stat changes onto old UPC entries, then is it really so easy to deny new evos?

What about re-typings? What if people voted for a Normal-type entry on the basis of "This game needs more Normal-typed UPC winners! " but the design fits the Fairy type so perfectly that, when the Fairy type was announced, the UPC winner was like, "Oh man! D: I want to retype my guy to Fairy!"

That's the crux of it, really. "People voted for what you submitted, not what you want to have now. So it's unfair to the other contestants to allow you to make changes after the fact."

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And also, what specifically does one mean by "updating" an entry to the current gens? Is it just a learnset update? New forms and evolutions? Changes on base stats?
I take it to mean mostly new typings, abilities, moves, and stat changes. I wanted to say "Not new evos", but then I just realized -- FB hasn't had a UPC since Mega Evolution was introduced. So even evos are fair game, I suppose, since a lot of past UPC winners might want to create a Mega form of their beloved winning entries. Hmm.

The easiest and most inoffensive example that comes to my mind is letting a winning entry learn Scald if it was created before Scald was invented. If a Rhydon can learn Surf , then I'd say any UPCmon previously capable of learning Water Pulse, Surf, or other then-common Water-type attacks should be able to pick up Scald.

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So here's an idea: Just as it was the community that voted for the contest winner, we should also have the comunity vote on ,and approve, of any changes to the entry. This should keep any updates within reasonable boundaries and allow them to undergo due process without having to participate through another competition. Besides, in theory, the entry would eventually be released for public use, so it makes sense to me that the comunity as a whole would have a say on which state any given new pokémon is reintroduced in.
I thought about this too, but I reasoned that "the community today isn't the community back then." One could say, it violates the will of the community of the past to allow changes to be made to what they voted on. But that stated, I think this is probably fairer than locking past UPC winners out of new advents. For instance, I really don't think that past UPC winners should be locked out of Megas or unique Z-Moves.
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Old 04-30-2017, 07:39 PM   #16
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From a "professional" point of view, I don't know if Shadow Pokemon breeding could be a thing due to lore (since they are supposed to be all emotionless and closed off to the world or whatever), and if they do breed that their offspring probably won't develop the same issues due to the shadow aspect being an entirely artificial thing brought about by human influence (unless the parents neglect their offspring and induce a "natural" shadowfication...)

Okay, let's clarify something: while it may be true that shadow pokemon are mindless machines of destruction when initially snagged, the second thing they regain in game is their Nature- the individual's original personality. Sure, said personality may still be somewhat twisted by its current 'affliction', but it doesn't change the fact that the shadow pokemon can now theoretically experience a full range of emotion without having to go into Hyper/Reverse Mode- including love. Thus, that side of the breeding scenario isn't actually an issue at all- the only reason shadow pokemon weren't allowed to breed in the games was because the service-running NPC's were also under the misconception that all such entities were mindless machines of destruction and wanted no part of that. (On a side note, I always found it odd how every single service-providing NPC could somehow tell when something was a shadow pokemon when the ability to see auras is supposed to incredibly rare.)

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But personally as a lover of spice, I do think if they are (and they should) be allowed to breed that yes, they should have some small chance of passing down the "shadow gene" or whatever.
Now, as for how to handle a shadow pokemon's potential progeny, there's another detail I'd like to stress: as far as I can tell, the origins of Fizzytopia's shadow pokemon are entirely unknown. The official shadow formulas are notable in this discussion for being a spiritual blemish rather than a physical one ("the door to their heart is artificially closed"). By this wording, it would be impossible to to have a pokemon be born naturally shadow, but entirely possible (if costly) to turn an existing one into a shadow. Buuut... the FB formula is quit different from the official three, is it not? The pokemon can continue growing, don't have the risk of going into Hyper or Reverse, and even the most minor of species are fully capable of learning shadow moves that aren't tied to their normal movepool in the slightest! Heck, every single one of them is differently colored than the norm, a trait that is only found in the XD Series (which only has one representative) formula in canon! And how was every single FB formula shadow brought to the system again? That's right, as eggs. Heck, that detail alone is probably enough to warrant the possibility a having a shadow child as a result!

So yeah, I'd say it's a possibility, but maybe expand on it a touch. If we are treating the shadow condition as a genetic trait, then it would make sense to give the chance to purified pokemon as well- they may have shaken the curse from their soul, but not from their code. I'd say that this also gives a more justifiable reason behind the shadow chance being as low as the current suggestion is- more pokemon are capable of triggering it than just those with presently-closed hearts. Though I'd say 10%'s a more viable number, since MM's suggestion of 5% feels like it would be too small to even feel like a significant addition to the Breeding Centre on its own. But hey, maybe that's just me.
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Old 04-30-2017, 07:45 PM   #17
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I'm cool with 10%. For the record, my mention of 5% was just my fuzzy memory of the original stance on the matter.
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Old 05-05-2017, 06:18 PM   #18
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Okay, with mod permission, here we go.

How does everybody feel about officializing Pinaclsaur? I know it is something I heavly associate FB with and would be a good UPCmon, despite never einning, to test out any potential UPC changes.

Here is also a link to the latest of the Pinaclsaur entries.
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Old 05-05-2017, 09:12 PM   #19
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But, wouldn't that ruin the legend? The running joke? The memes?! By the gods, think of the memes!

In all seriousness though, something feels wrong about letting an entry "win" just because it fulfilled some sort of pity timer, and I'm concerned it'll create a bad precedent for future entries. I'm not fond of the idea that an entry can become official just because one was persistent about pushing it year after year without ever winning, regardless of how good it actually is. I feel that if Pinaclsaur is deserving of FB (or rather, if FB is deserving of Pinaclsaur?) then it should eventually win a contest on its own merit.
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Old 05-06-2017, 08:20 AM   #20
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Yeahno I agree with Bal here.

It's an FB meme, and we're long past the era of old memes. This is a new look FB, and Pinaclsaur has no place in it.
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Old 05-06-2017, 09:52 AM   #21
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I'm gonna echo the general consensus here- if we're gonna make Pinaclsaur official, it has to do it the way any other UPC entry does- by winning the UPC. If it wins one, it's in. If it doesn't, that's the way the Magcargo shell crumbles.
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Old 05-06-2017, 10:51 AM   #22
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As much as I enjoy the Pinaclsaur tradition, I agree that he should formally win before being put into the pool. The way I see it, it's unfair to Pinaclsaur himself (and his greatest champions, Zora and Hana) if you "rob him" of the opportunity to win a UPC fair and square. He deserves that chance. I'd be perfectly happy to see him in the pool of eligible spawns right now but for the fact that it robs him of his chance to win a UPC.

If you are an updater and you are also a fan of Pinaclsaur, you might want to consider writing him into your updates in ways that don't violate the spirit of the rules (nor any actual rules themselves). The easiest way I can think of this is a Bigfoot or Loch Ness Monster-style approach, where:
  • you fall short of naming him "Pinaclsaur"
  • you fall short of having him appear in the flesh
  • but you can have a WANTED poster on a PMD-style bulletin board with tons of other posters, and on that poster is the OG drawing of Pinaclsaur
  • or you can have an NPC trainer claim that he's sighted "a strange Pokémon" that loosely (only loosely; don't get too concrete) matches Pinaclsaur's physical description. Example: "I saw it! A dinosaur, there, in the bushes! It was eating something! The air, it ... it smelled of fruit!" Example 2: "I saw what looked like a Torterra, only it ... it didn't have a tree on its back. I ... I think I smelled pineapple ... "
  • you can have charlatans claiming to have found a new Pokémon (and one which incidentally matches Pinaclsaur almost exactly) only it's a Rocket Trio-style concoction of a painted Meowth, a costumed Wobbuffet, etc. glued and duct taped together only pretending to be this fabled Loch Ness Pokémon
Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I don't see the harm in doing this. It's a way to have fun with Pinaclsaur as a part of FB tradition without making him canon / official before (if ever) it is appropriate to. Hell, maybe a more relaxed interpretation of what I'm saying would even allow for the use of the name "Pinaclsaur" in the urban legend, I dunno. Just don't provide any player characters an experience where they encounter something themselves in the bushes and within reasonable doubt they can be assured it was probably a wild Pinaclsaur. That imo goes the one step too far and renders Pinaclsaur as canon before it's fair to do so. My general rule of thumb for updaters would be: if ever you're wanting to incorporate him into your writing, make sure to think of him the way you think of Bigfoot in our world. (Unless, of course, you actually believe in Bigfoot, in which case please put in some other clearly fake paranormal entity, e.g. jackalopes or the chupacabra or ...)
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Old 05-06-2017, 11:16 AM   #23
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So this is a little unrelated but it's come up here so I figure it's worth mentioning. I don't really love the creeping sentiment of rejecting everything from the previous era of FB. I get that you're looking for a fresh start (and FB definitely needs it), but I think it's throwing the baby out with the bathwater to reject things just because they existed before the community took back the reigns. Perhaps I'm letting myself be blinded by nostalgia, but there were quite a few good things that were implemented by the last mod team and some history worth remembering and preserving.

On topic: I actually really like Talon's approach. I think it would be neat to have Pinaclsaur be canonized but at the same time having him continue to be sort of a mythical Pokémon like he has been would be neat too. Even if Pinaclsaur isn't 100% brought into the fold for whatever reason, it would be kind of cool to have it be brought into the mythos formally.
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Old 05-07-2017, 09:56 AM   #24
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I do agree with the generaly community consensus here. I know it is a dear Pokemon to all of us, so I wanted to ask anywayd.

Next topic. If previous UPC winners could post here on if they want their mon public or not, that would be awesome. I'm sure the mods would be able to figure some method out if they say yes.
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Old 05-07-2017, 01:46 PM   #25
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Personally, I have absolutely no problem with making my entry public. I would like however to run it through the comunity in order to have it properly updated to the current gen if possible.

EDIT: Also, I just discovered that Imageshack got rid of *everything* I had stored in there since I was running on a free account and they've gone full premium mode only. So, I'll have to redraw it all over again.
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