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Old 06-17-2017, 01:18 AM   #1
TheKnightsFury
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Magikarp Leveling Up

So I know I am a FB newbie but I have had some time to assess this and think it is probably worth discussing. I have talked with a few updators and it seems that how Pokemon level in zones is still a little muddy. Essentially levels are only really given for battles, but that to me kind of limits creativity and shuts a lot of Pokemon out from being able to contribute and still level. A Pokemon gains experience during battle yes? Does a Pokemon carrying out a task like carrying a Pokemon to safety not also gain experience?

From what I have gathered, a Pokemon is required to directly to participate in a battle or battle-like scenario in order to gain a level. What about the Pokemon that can't really battle all that well due to either being a really low level and having barely any moves or those that just can't really battle? (lol Magikarp)

I feel like we could probably open up discussion about whether we should be giving Pokemon levels for carrying out tasks as well as battling. Obviously simply walking/flying/swimming around isn't going to give levels, but structured movements and acts over a period of time would. I will provide a personal example.....


In Bedlam my Pokemon just got involved in a massive fight against a rampaging Darmanitan that was like super OP. While a few of my Pokemon that were capable of handling the battle worked to subdue the Darmanitan, my Sentret was continuously instructed to search for the Darmanitan's lost Pokeball, using its natural abilities to do this. At level 1 there is much else she could do but it was a perfect opportunity for her to use her natural talents. At the end of the fight, my Mudbray gained 2 levels for being the main combatant and my Scyther and Passimian got 1 each for their contributions to the fight. My Sentret however had no reason to gain a level under the currently accepted leveling procedure, even though she played an important role.


I am aware there may be other issues with leveling at the moment that could potential be brought up in this thread which is what I would like to see.
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Old 06-17-2017, 09:59 AM   #2
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It depends on the updater's leniency at the moment. I have no qualms about awarding exp to successful tasks outisde of battling, and agree that it's fair. Especially since, at this moment and similarly to Tess's FB, most of the actual levelling still happens in shops - Daycare and Candy Shop. Perhaps a more thorough discussion on levelling alternatives in the game would be productive - a "grinding zone"? More side battles during plots? More generous exp rewards? None of the above? :P
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Old 06-17-2017, 10:01 AM   #3
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You can gain levels outside of battle, up to the updator.
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Old 06-17-2017, 10:17 AM   #4
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Yeah I kind of don't like the fact and don't think that it is healthy that majority of levels are gained artificially through Daycare and Rare Candies. If anything it kind of just adds value to Rare Candies which supports it as a powerful currency.
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Old 06-17-2017, 11:01 AM   #5
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1.can we make exp share a thing?
2. I like the idea of a grinding zone
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Old 06-17-2017, 11:10 AM   #6
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I am very much against the idea of an Exp Share. Pokemon should only be rewarded for actually putting in effort in a zone.

As it has been said on discord, I think pokemon should gain one level if they expend a decent amount of effort in an adventure, two levels if they are involved in a very hard-fought and challenging battle, and three in very rare cases in some kinds of "boss battles."

Emi had proposed the idea of a raid battle area before where trainers can co-op battles against waves of pokemon. I think if done right, this could be a good means to use as a grinding area.
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Old 06-17-2017, 11:33 AM   #7
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I think two-three should be more common than that in fairness, but that's just me.
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Old 06-17-2017, 11:36 AM   #8
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Should a Pokemon's current level affect how easily it gains levels? I heard scaling had been discussed and I think it does hold merit, mostly in getting Pokemon off the ground. Wouldn't exactly push for making it harder for Pokemon to level the higher they are but making it easier for Pokemon below like lvl 20 or 30 to level regularly would make sense.
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Old 06-27-2017, 07:53 PM   #9
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Emi had proposed the idea of a raid battle area before where trainers can co-op battles against waves of pokemon. I think if done right, this could be a good means to use as a grinding area.
I like the idea of having raids as a form of RP grinding.

I was also wondering if, in addition to raids, we might be able to reintroduce a semi-PvP element to FB in the form of sparring matches.

Sparring matches don't necessarily have to be physical - they could be any type of competitive training two people can have their Pokemon face off in. a ref may come in and give a little blurb to announce the "winner" or "loser", but winning or losing doesn't matter - the act of RPing the sparring match will allow both people to gain levels based on their word count.

My thought is - every month, a new style of sparring would be announced, and people can pick opponents and square off for levels. Participation would be limited to once a week. We could also make the last week of every month a "free-for-all" in terms of sparring style choice.

I'd have to do a lot more work on this, but the idea would be a way to get levels that isn't visiting the Daycare or shoving candies down your Pokemon's throat. It also adds a way for people to RP competitive events without mimicking ASB.
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Old 06-27-2017, 08:48 PM   #10
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We really do need to talk about improving or fixing the current leveling system.

I have been back for two months, and I have had plenty of updates and only leveled up naturally one time - three levels for my Mareanie in a battle I had in Cloud Garden. I fully believe we should start encouraging level ups for Pokemon just partaking in a story, even if they didn't battle necessarily.

On top of this, I want to propose something bound to be controversial, but I think it can help fix a vicious cycle FB can sometimes find itself in.

Right now we have $250 rewards for 250 word update replies. Unfortunately, let's be honest: money as it is right now in FB is basically useless outside of Pokeballs and occasional little things (this is an entirely different discussion on its own). What I propose is an alternative: Instead of just taking your post links to the Pokebank and getting your $250, take them instead to the candy shop (most likely at a higher word count, say maybe 350 to 500+) and get yourself 1 Rare Candy per zone reply. This keeps the flow of motivation from petering out, and it rewards more thoughtful RPing with a guaranteed candy. I am totally open to the idea of re-tooling this proposal, but it's a base idea that I'd like to start with because we quite frankly need more options for leveling up, specifically Pokemon under level 35-ish. All we have right now is 1 free candy per week, and a daycare center that gives 2 levels per week.

Marion's idea of sparring matches is also a decent proposal because it is opening up other venues to level up. It is incredibly frustrating to have a bunch of extremely low level Pokemon that I can't level up because I don't get the opportunity to.


And finally, one more thing that shouldn't be controversial at all: Updaters need to start being far more relaxed about leveling up their updatees Pokemon. Pokemon should be rewarded with levels for performing even the most miniscule of tasks in an adventure. Did your updatee's Golduck use its powers to clear some underbrush? Did your updatee's Sentret go on a scouting mission for a missing item for an update or two? Or maybe their Houndour lit up the darkness so that they could see? Great! Give them both a level or two for partaking in the adventure! The point is, it's high time we updaters become way more relaxed about what constitutes getting a level up.

Last edited by deoxys; 06-27-2017 at 09:43 PM. Reason: Typos
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Old 06-27-2017, 08:57 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by deoxys View Post
We really do need to talk about improving or fixing the current leveling system.

I have been back for two months, and I have had plenty of updates and only leveled up naturally one time - three levels for my Mareanie in a battle I had in Cloud Garden. I fully believe we should start encouraging level ups for Pokemon just partaking in a story, even if they didn't battle necessarily.

On top of this, I want to propose something bound to be controversial, but I think it can help fix a vicious cycle FB can sometimes find itself in.

Right now we have $250 rewards for 250 word update replies. Unfortunately, let's be honest: money as it is right now in FB is basically useless outside of Pokeballs and occasional little things (this is an entirely different discussion on its own). What I propose is an alternative: Instead of just taking your post links to the Pokebank and getting your $250, take them instead to the candy shop (most likely at a higher word count, say maybe 350 to 500+) and get yourself 1 Rare Candy per zone reply. This keeps the flow of motivation from petering out, and it rewards more thoughtful RPing with a guaranteed candy. I am totally open to the idea of re-tooling this proposal, but it's a base idea that I'd like to start with because we quite frankly need more options for leveling up, specifically Pokemon under level 35-ish. All we have right now is 1 free candy per week, and a daycare center that gives 2 levels per week.

Marion's idea of sparring matches is also a decent proposal because it is opening up other venues to level up. It is incredibly frustrating to have a bunch of extremely low level Pokemon that I can't level up because I don't get the opportunity to.


And finally, one more thing that shouldn't be controversial at all: Updaters need to start being far more relaxed about leveling up their updatees Pokemon. Pokemon should be rewarded with levels for performing even the most miniscule of tasks in an adventure. Did your updatee's Golduck use its powers to clear some underbrush? Did your updatee's Sentret go on a scouting mission for a missing item for an update or two? Or maybe their Houndour lit up the darkness so that you could see? Great! Give them both a level or two for partaking in the adventure! The point is, it's high time we updaters become way more relaxed about what constitutes getting a level up.
I am 100% for the candy-for-replies. Honestly, there aren't enough levels going around FB and Celebi knows I would give my RP a little extra push if it meant an extra level for my woefully underlevelled Pokémon.

Moreover, it does keep reward tied to RP. If we get cash for replies, I don't see why we can't get candies. Candies aren't even currency. They enrich Pokémon, and therefore RP. I vote Yes.
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Old 06-27-2017, 09:48 PM   #12
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I'm all for these ideas- sparring matches, as well as the possibility of earning Rare Candies for zone replies (also interested in the notion of Pokédollars being usable for more stuff, like maybe TMs, or buying extra Daycare levels in a single week).
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Old 06-27-2017, 09:49 PM   #13
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Quick, general comments.

A) I think you guys should totally steal WF's leveling scheme and maybe even go farther with it since you guys will on average need a lot more levels to play the game the way you want. IMO any reasonable action accomplished by a Pokémon should result in a level or at least get you close to one. Battles of any reasonable length, especially lasting more than one update, should result in levels. (Unrelated but I also noticed Raves grant a level 100 a new move - maybe this is a good way to grant Event/XD moves too?)

2) I like Deo's idea about candies 4 replies, but I think it's important to be careful about wordcount thresholds for additional rewards. It's one thing if you just give the same point amount out for however many words (that's worked well in WF) but it's another thing to lock a prize away unless you hit a certain wordcount. That basically guarantees people will artificially inflate RP to get it and that can cause burnout if you're not careful. It would probably be fine if it were like maybe 350 words or so but, I personally would just prefer to see it be IN ADDITION to Pokedollars for 250 if anything.

3) Buying levels at the Daycare was thrown around. I'd not mind seeing this, but I'd like it to be at least a LITTLE affordable (since levels don't have that much intrinsic value, especially compared to other things). Maybe like two extra levels for $100? Feel free to tweak that if you have specific ideas.

4) The idea of a leveling event has been thrown around in Discord - I know Tate and I both brought forth vague ideas for some sort of mini-event annually similar to the Egg Hunt where your Pokémon perform short actions or do some tasks and gain a nice chunk of levels to help alleviate some of the leveling woes.
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Old 06-27-2017, 10:00 PM   #14
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2) I like Deo's idea about candies 4 replies, but I think it's important to be careful about wordcount thresholds for additional rewards. It's one thing if you just give the same point amount out for however many words (that's worked well in WF) but it's another thing to lock a prize away unless you hit a certain wordcount. That basically guarantees people will artificially inflate RP to get it and that can cause burnout if you're not careful. It would probably be fine if it were like maybe 350 words or so but, I personally would just prefer to see it be IN ADDITION to Pokedollars for 250 if anything.

Just want to say I have absolutely no qualms with this

I've seen people say they were afraid introducing this many candies into the economy couldm negatively impact the "rare candy economy" or trade values, to which I say: good. If this devalues the rare candy by making it a... well, common candy, I have no problems with that. The rare candy value has always been somewhat artificial anyway - if we flooded rare candies into FB with this proposal and then found a way to also increase the value of actual Pokedollars, then that would be a far preferred option in my book.
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Old 06-27-2017, 11:03 PM   #15
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(Unrelated but I also noticed Raves grant a level 100 a new move - maybe this is a good way to grant Event/XD moves too?)
I like it. The notion of giving new moves to level 100s in lieu of levels is nothing new in FB- that's how my Vileplume learned Double-Edge and Worry Seed- and if memory serves, the current plan is to have in-zone move tutors for event moves, though combining the two ideas- a level 100 learning an event move in lieu of leveling up- I can get on board with that.


As for devaluing the Rare Candy, I don't see why not. We're trying to make it less currency-esque in the first place.
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Old 06-28-2017, 01:41 PM   #16
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2) I like Deo's idea about candies 4 replies, but I think it's important to be careful about wordcount thresholds for additional rewards. It's one thing if you just give the same point amount out for however many words (that's worked well in WF) but it's another thing to lock a prize away unless you hit a certain wordcount. That basically guarantees people will artificially inflate RP to get it and that can cause burnout if you're not careful. It would probably be fine if it were like maybe 350 words or so but, I personally would just prefer to see it be IN ADDITION to Pokedollars for 250 if anything.

3) Buying levels at the Daycare was thrown around. I'd not mind seeing this, but I'd like it to be at least a LITTLE affordable (since levels don't have that much intrinsic value, especially compared to other things). Maybe like two extra levels for $100? Feel free to tweak that if you have specific ideas.
I'm behind these ideas one hundred percent. Leveling seems like a momentous task to a greenhorn like me. Without many Rare Candies to my name and fewer opportunities to level my 'mon, I feel I'm going nowhere fast. I'm particularly for (3), as I haven't the faintest as to what to do with my 5000 some-odd pokedollars in the bank.
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Old 07-08-2017, 08:35 PM   #17
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With the addition of future level-up moves being added to the MT Shop, I have noticed a potential concern with levels becoming devalued in FB. Why spend 70 weeks in the daycare to learn all of your level-up moves when you could do so in the MT Shop in 10 weeks? Additionally, levels were already an abstract stat to account for when writing updates to begin with. What is the difference between updating a lv.30 Pokemon versus updating a lv.50 Pokemon? Sometimes it’s hard to say. I wanted to put this off until after the IQ/Bond system was resolved because it might almost be too similar, but with the addition to the MT Shop, I feel like this can’t be ignored any longer.

The reason why I’m apprehensive about proposing this is that it comes off a bit similar to the current IQ/Bond proposals, but it’s still the best solution I can think of off the top of my head. Without further ado, here’s my idea, a milestone system based off of your Pokemon’s levels:
Lv.25: Pokemon now gains the ability to learn future level-up moves in the MT Shop. I feel like this would prevent people from having a lv.1 Pokemon with a complete moveset. Additionally it would cause people to work on their Pokemon a little bit before they’re given the reins to go crazy with their movesets.
Lv.50: The Pokemon gains a slight buff to their STAB attacks. It would be equal to the amount type-boosting items (Miracle Seed, Charcoal) give and stacks with abilities like Adaptability.
Lv.75: Honestly I’m not too sure on this one, but maybe the Pokemon could gain the ability to receive a discount when being used at shops like the MT Shop? I’d be open to hearing other suggestions on this tier.
Lv.100: Pokemon unlocks a kind of aura that could give them some kind of effect in battle. Balmund had an interesting idea on the subject, I think. Maybe there can be a pre-set list of auras that you can choose from when your Pokemon reaches lv.100.
In the end, I think it would be good to incentivize leveling up if systems like the MT Relearner are to be put in place.
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Old 07-08-2017, 09:00 PM   #18
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With the addition of future level-up moves being added to the MT Shop, I have noticed a potential concern with levels becoming devalued in FB. Why spend 70 weeks in the daycare to learn all of your level-up moves when you could do so in the MT Shop in 10 weeks? Additionally, levels were already an abstract stat to account for when writing updates to begin with. What is the difference between updating a lv.30 Pokemon versus updating a lv.50 Pokemon? Sometimes it’s hard to say. I wanted to put this off until after the IQ/Bond system was resolved because it might almost be too similar, but with the addition to the MT Shop, I feel like this can’t be ignored any longer.

The reason why I’m apprehensive about proposing this is that it comes off a bit similar to the current IQ/Bond proposals, but it’s still the best solution I can think of off the top of my head. Without further ado, here’s my idea, a milestone system based off of your Pokemon’s levels:
Lv.25: Pokemon now gains the ability to learn future level-up moves in the MT Shop. I feel like this would prevent people from having a lv.1 Pokemon with a complete moveset. Additionally it would cause people to work on their Pokemon a little bit before they’re given the reins to go crazy with their movesets.
Lv.50: The Pokemon gains a slight buff to their STAB attacks. It would be equal to the amount type-boosting items (Miracle Seed, Charcoal) give and stacks with abilities like Adaptability.
Lv.75: Honestly I’m not too sure on this one, but maybe the Pokemon could gain the ability to receive a discount when being used at shops like the MT Shop? I’d be open to hearing other suggestions on this tier.
Lv.100: Pokemon unlocks a kind of aura that could give them some kind of effect in battle. Balmund had an interesting idea on the subject, I think. Maybe there can be a pre-set list of auras that you can choose from when your Pokemon reaches lv.100.
In the end, I think it would be good to incentivize leveling up if systems like the MT Relearner are to be put in place.
Hm. I'm tempted to say that the majority of this should be part of the IQ/happiness system - HOWEVER, I think reaching Lv.100 should be a qualification for one of the auras that can be earned, just as maxing out the IQ system (or whatever we end up calling it) could be the qualification for a different aura.

I know it may be upsetting to people after we allowed universal TMs and move relearner to rein it back in, but the more I observe these things in action, the more I realize that, while freedoms should exist in FB, they should be earned. The happiness/IQ system is a good way to do this.

If you don't mind, I might incorporate some of these ideas into a larger proposal of my own.
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Old 07-08-2017, 09:03 PM   #19
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I 100% agree that certain liberties should be earned, and like I said, I was apprehensive about posting this because I feel like a lot of these things could belong in IQ/Bond as well. I just don't want to see people's hard work of leveling their pokemon to high levels go to waste when benefits can now be obtained at such a low level. Feel free to use anything I've said in your own proposals!
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Old 07-16-2017, 02:25 PM   #20
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I dug up a suggestion I made back in 2014 (which had Emi's input back then, actually!) and I'd like to repost it now (tweaked) for comments sake. Maybe something in here is salvageable, and if not, oh well, it was worth it for the nostalgia trip :P

----

The Proving Grounds​


Encompassing an incredibly wide area, carefully maintained and optimized for adventurers looking to test their Pokemon’s strength and raise them to the best of their ability, the Proving Grounds can be considered a sort of Battle Safari Zone.

The Proving Grounds are open year-round. Once you’ve registered one of your Pokemon to enter the Grounds, you must choose one of five locations to explore and battle in: Sea, Mountain, Grasslands, Desert or Factory. The species of Pokemon that can be met within each area are naturally different; all will be of Common rarity [well this was a thing in 2014, not sure if rarity tiers still exist].

When entering the area of your choosing, you are expected to roleplay your arrival (or permanence) in the zone, interactions with your partner Pokemon, an overall strategy for the coming battles and any other extra character development you want. Although there is no minimum number of words enforced, the better you roleplay, the higher your chances of a better payoff in the next update.

Encounters are randomly rolled by the updater for each participant. Pokemon act independently, although Pokemon with higher BPs will tend to stick to their Trainer’s instructions more closely. Battle outcomes are essentially random but there are several ways to tip the scales (which is to say, the RNG) in your favor: favorable type matchups, Pokemon Level, Nature, Happiness, roleplaying effort at the dropoff, etc.

Each victory earns the Pokemon +2 Level. The better you roleplay when dropping off your partner, the higher the chance of subsequent encounters: at best, there is a chance of running into 3 consecutive wild enemies between updates, meaning a potential +6 level gain at the end of the week if victorious. On the other hand, effortless posts like “Picking up and dropping off Trapinch for a week” will result in complete failure; this isn’t supposed to be a weekly chore.

If ending the week with a victory, a rare chance of capturing one of the defeated wild Pokemon may present itself. This opportunity is exclusively determined by RNG and the odds are slim; it will only be taken into account for members with quality RP signups. You may capture the Pokemon in your subsequent drop-off, or ignore it.

Rule summary:
- Every week, from Monday to Wednesday, you can drop off one of your Pokemon – here, quality roleplaying is encouraged.
- Any day from Thursday to Sunday, an updater will post the results of that week’s training session for all participants.
- There are 5 zones to choose from each week: Sea, Mountain, Grasslands, Desert or Factory. Pokemon species vary in each zone.
- The number of levels gained depends on the number of wild Pokemon defeated, with a minimum of 0 and maximum of 6 Levels acquired.
- All Pokemon found are Common.
- Akin to Gen III’s Battle Palace, registered Pokemon battle independently with several factors influencing their decisions.
- Level, Nature, Type, movepool and RP quality all play a role in deciding the outcome of the training session.
- Rarely, a chance to capture a defeated Pokemon may present itself to good roleplayers.


A series of predetermined sentences could make things easier for the updater; it’d be up to the players to elaborate on what was posted if they wished. Of course, if the updater prefers to customize every update, it’s up to them. Either way, it’s good material for players to create their own stories around these updates, bare-bones as they are, and let their own creativity flesh out what happened inside the Proving Grounds during that week!


-----


Some of the rightful criticism levied at the idea included the Battle Palace approach of moves used based on nature rather than direct trainer input. I understood back then and I still understand now, but this is meant as an alternative to usual RPing, rather than the only level-up method - it's meant to resemble the grind that makes leveling up easy in games, without requiring constant roleplaying in the Proving Grounds, which could lead to burnout and people giving up on the idea. Besides, it could help strengthen a player Pokémon's personality in case it was yet to be fleshed out in Zones. Lemme know what you guys think, or alternatives you propose!
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Old 07-16-2017, 02:32 PM   #21
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I'll address the elephant in the room then... is this supposed to coexist with the Battle Frontier idea or be an outright alternative to it?
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Old 07-16-2017, 02:40 PM   #22
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I'll address the elephant in the room then... is this supposed to coexist with the Battle Frontier idea or be an outright alternative to it?
Honestly? Battle Frontier and all its facilities are being discussed so intensely and at such a pace that I stopped following that development and am just waiting for the end result. If this or something similar is already being done over there, forget this suggestion altogether; if it can coexist, all the better, but I wouldn't know :P
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Old 07-16-2017, 03:01 PM   #23
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Couldn't this be more like a sub-area of Incognito Isle? Or if it does fall under the Battle Frontier umbrella, I would imagine it would join the list of areas that will be rotating in and out. We might need to start pumping the brakes on adding too many more areas
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Old 07-16-2017, 03:13 PM   #24
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Like I said, we only need one zone/place/facility that offers a similar service - leveling as its primary function and at a consistent rate. If any of the ideas that have already been proposed serve this purpose, this one can be scrapped. What I don't want is for Candies to continue being the primary method of gaining levels, purchasable or not, because it's silly from an RP standpoint where you should be powering up your Pokémon by actually using them (instead of "here, swallow all these candy-shaped roids until you're big and strong!").
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Old 07-18-2017, 12:00 AM   #25
Marion Ette
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maskerade View Post
What I don't want is for Candies to continue being the primary method of gaining levels, purchasable or not, because it's silly from an RP standpoint where you should be powering up your Pokémon by actually using them (instead of "here, swallow all these candy-shaped roids until you're big and strong!").
I agree with this sentiment, honestly. I would like to look to RP-related solutions FIRST, and items/purchasable levels second failing that.

With that said, I strongly, strongly support updaters giving out more levels in adventures while the Battle Frontier is being hashed out (and even after it's implemented). I wouldn't mind shifting our mindset to giving out a level for small tasks, two levels for big tasks and maybe even three or more if you're talking a momentous battle or incredibly daunting task. We don't have to be stingy!

The old, unspoken system of giving out one or two levels after 10+ replies is not sustainable, as Jeri mentioned, especially in FB. That has to change now.


As for how we address the leveling deficit beyond that... there are a LOT of proposals being thrown around, particularly regarding the Battle Frontier, and I'll need some time to process them all personally.

In the interim, perhaps allowing for one additional level to be purchased per week at the Daycare might be a possible, provisional, short-term solution. My thought is $300 for this additional charge while proposals are being worked on.

Thoughts on this?
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