UPNetwork  

Go Back   UPNetwork > General Forums > Anime

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-19-2017, 11:06 AM   #1
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 11,291
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Romantic tension in comedies

Call the post office, I'm talking about shipping.

Comedies are the focus of this discussion because their focus is the make the viewer laugh, not to arouse them or emotionally upset them. But I feel like one can only watch a comedy for so long before one starts to apply reality's standards to the comedy.

Pokemon is a great example of this and is the quintessential shipping show. The focus of the anime is about Pokemon battling and childhood adventure. Yet, the audience grows up while the characters in shows don't. The audience discovers the opposite sex while the characters in show remain stunted. Time and life moves onward in the real world while the calendar is only right once in the Pokemon world. If you're not watching Pokemon from the Republic of Neverland, you are as destined to become disillusioned with the show as you are to start shaving.

And I know both men AND women do this, so don't deny it!

So why this discussion? Every comedy I see involving opposite sexes (99%) these days, save the all-male Cromartie High School comedy, degrades into shipping wars as the comedy starts to wane. Shipping fights are not uncommon in anime/manga (in fact, they are super common) but it's such a recurring issue I wonder if there's any good solution for the authors. People want the tension resolved but doing so usually permanently disfigures the story. There are three basic outs:

1. Ignore the cries for shipping

This is the most common 'out', but it's also untenable long-term and not a true outcome. All series must end, and all authors have to add some kind of definite conclusion - you can tease for years like in To Love-Ru or Monogatari but once popularity drops, the series becomes poorly regarded (and no longer purchased) if an unresolved end is applied. It's like going for the short term solution and avoiding the long term crisis.

2. No girl wins

AKA the Code Geass ending. You don't want to piss off the shippers you teased, so you either kill off the harem, severe the ships, and/or kill/isolate the main lead from any ability to love or find happiness. This can be satisfying, but it's brutal to shippers and they inevitably end up frustrated. If the series has nothing else going for it this is one of the worst ends, as it feels like the ultimate blue ball situation - hold out for years with no payoff.

3. Girl wins, other fanbases erupt

The rule of two - there's usually two horses who are in the lead for the main guy and those girls split fanbases in two. Chichi and Bulma. Aoi and Hildegarde. Asuna and Setsuna. Haruhi and Yuki. Meiya and Sumika. The alpha females appear regardless of harem size and it's always just two girls.

Pick red and blue's fans explode. Pick blue and red's fans undergo total meltdown. Pick green and everyone flips their lid. There isn't a good choice if two girls are equally deserving, to this kind of scenario is usually avoided by having "first girl" win, or obligating the main guy to one girl in an obnoxious way.

For example, it's obvious to me in Granblue Fantasy Lyria is predestined to win. She has a special connection to the main guy and is the "first girl", even though she's boring and uninteresting. These qualities are an easy defense by the author to settle on one girl over the other, because rather than fall back on character development-based arguments (which fans may dispute) or author discretion, a plot-structural reason to prefer one girl over another forces fans to accept it.

Like, we know Ukyo was always the best Ranma girl, while Shampoo was an idiot and Akane a dumb tomboy. Ukyo was loving, beautiful, feminine, and decently strong. Why did she lose? TECHNICAL REASONS. The best girl rarely wins, because there's always an argument about who is best, but there's never an argument about who is first.

That said...anyone have a preference on which outcome they prefer, why and with examples?
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて

Last edited by Doppleganger; 04-19-2017 at 09:33 PM.
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2017, 03:42 PM   #2
lilbluecorsola
Crying Prologue
 
lilbluecorsola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Searching for red
Posts: 4,549
Lil' Bluey

As someone who's not a big fan of romance - in fiction or reality, I personally prefer option #1. I loved how Ouran's animé ended with no definitive couple/confession, but the manga became boring to me when it started focusing solely on Haruhi's official relationship/feelings for Tamaki.

Likewise, I don't think I'd care for seeing any main character couple become canon in TMoHS. While Kyon and Haruhi are practically confirmed to be endgame, I'm perfectly happy not seeing it coming true within the course of the actual series. (Plus hey, that leaves hope for Itsuki and Yuki. *shot*)
__________________




Do you remember that word I loved...?

Mekakucity Actors Discussion Thread
lilbluecorsola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2017, 05:06 PM   #3
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 11,291
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Haruhi x Kyon falls under the domain of #3. Most Nagato Yuki fans would prefer the #1 scenario versus the #3 scenario where Yuki loses. For some reason I think you understand this better than others would.

But that's one of the problems as I see it. #1 scenario is almost, universally, bad writing. #3 might have good writing but shippers are too engrossed in their fandom to accept anything other than their chosen ship. Which is why all paths go through Scylla and Charybdis, there is no avoiding damage.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2017, 08:00 PM   #4
McSweeney
Soul Badge
 
McSweeney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Saskatoon, Canada
Posts: 1,418
Minami-ke is exhibit A of #1, ignore it. The show has massive potential for romance, but the author refuses to make any progress in this regard because he's scared of upsetting the established dynamics of the show. This has been a constant source of frustration for me and Talon, who want to see Hosaka finally get laid confess his feelings to the girl he likes, or at least hook up with a different girl (personally I ship Hosaka x Atsuko).
__________________


Smoking Gary sez:
"Stay in school kidz"
McSweeney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2017, 11:34 PM   #5
Talon87
Shenmue III, baby!
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,203
Send a message via AIM to Talon87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
There isn't a good choice if two girls are equally deserving, so this kind of scenario is usually avoided by having "first girl" win, or obligating the main guy to one girl in an obnoxious way.
In my mind, the most striking example of this is Sakurasou no Pet na Kanojo.


Here was a show which clearly, from the outset, had presented viewers with the formula, "Main Guy is going to have lots of options to choose from, but in the end he's going to pair off with Main Girl." It just so happens that Main Girl was also Title Girl in this case -- the so-called "Pet Girl" of Sakura Inn. But when Obvious Rival Doomed To Fail arrives, much to our surprise she turns out not to be so obviously doomed after all. In fact ... she seems to be a just-as-good match for, if not a better match for, the main guy than the main girl does. "Shiina should get Kanda." Fact. "Aoyama should get Kanda." Also fact. Both girls are equally deserving, and the male protagonist both works with and doesn't work with both girls equally well.

Sakurasou wasn't a case where, you go, "Okay, the best girl clearly lost." Both girls are equally good. But the problem is, the author is damned if he does by this and damned if he doesn't. No matter what choice he makes, he's going to piss off the fans. So in the end, it's easiest to just say, "The girl who got here first wins!" (For the record, I don't know that that's how Sakurasou ends. I would guess as much though.)


Nyan-Koi, on the other hand ... now there was a show where you go, "Okay, the best girl clearly lost." The second girl was objectively better, subjectively better, everyone wanted her to win ... but nope, sorry, we're gonna have to go ahead and pair off the main character with the boring, shallow, one-sided high school crush that isn't going to go anywhere instead. Because she's the First Girl, and the perfect girl is the Second Girl. Oh my God. The only reason Kaede (left) wins this one is because she shows up first while Kanako (right) shows up second. Because this story is presented from the point of view of the male protagonist who is crushing on Kaede and oblivious to Kanako's feelings, whereas in any other universe where the story was told from Kanako's point of view it would 100% be a love story where she ends up confessing to him and winning his affections in the end. Kanako is more beautiful, in every sector. She's got more history with the main character. She loves the main character. And for what it's worth the main character platonically (and with the potential for it to become romantic) loves her back. There's like ... it's hard to explain in words, you'd just have to have seen Nyan-Koi to understand: the author sets up Junpei x Kanako perfectly, almost as if it's his endgame, and then doesn't follow through with it because FIRST GIRL, FIRST GIRL! Stupid. So, so stupid. If you look for user comments online, some of which I tripped over while looking for good images to use for this post, you'll find person after person after person bemoaning the fact that Kanako doesn't get the guy and/or celebrating how in their view she is without a doubt the Best Girl.
Talon87 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2017, 11:56 PM   #6
Talon87
Shenmue III, baby!
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,203
Send a message via AIM to Talon87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
2. No girl wins

AKA the Code Geass ending.
Well I mean, Code Geass is hardly a romantic comedy. I wouldn't even bill it as a romance. Do you want the discussion to center around comedies (and how shipping can be many a comedy writer's bane if romance was never his intention)? Or do you simply wish to discuss the conundrum that most romance writers find themselves in -- "How do I resolve romantic tension without pissing readers/viewers off?"

I think Option 2 is the rarest. I'm hard pressed to think of any examples with romcoms or comedies in general. Those are usually either Option 1 (ignore the shippers' cries) or else Option 3 (buckle in and crown one lucky girl/guy as the winner). Option 2 is usually reserved for non-romance and especially for non-comedy. Probably because it is inherently incompatible with comedy? (Maybe except for dark comedy ... ) Like ...


The most famous "No Girl Wins" example for me would come from the non-romance, non-comedy, science-fiction thriller Neon Genesis Evangelion. Even if you've never seen Eva, it's hard to be an anime fan without recognizing the faces of Ayanami Rei and Asuka Langley. Spoiler: Shinji doesn't wind up with either girl in the end. But that's okay, because long before we reach the end of Evangelion, it's clear to viewers of all ages that Shinji isn't going to be getting any girls. (Or guys, for that matter.) That still didn't keep people from shipping him with Rei, Asuka, even Misato! I think with Eva, and a lot of dead-end, Option-2 shows that get shipped in general is, fans are more interested in waifu-ing a selected character than they are shipping a particular pair together.

While Geass isn't quite so badly off as Eva in this regard, what with Lelouch being amazing and Shinji being pathetic, I'd say there's some similar stuff going on with Geass too. People aren't so much shipping Lelouch with C.C., I'd wager, as they are waifu-ing C.C. People aren't shipping Lelouch with Karen so much as they are waifu-ing Karen. There's a chosen girl you want to "win", because she's "your waifu", she's the best, and if anyone's going to wind up with this guy romantically in the end then you want it to be her.

But to be fair, I think that can only partly explain it, as (and I may be biased here), I think Lelouch's relationship with C.C. and to a lesser extent Karen is too formative of a proper shipping.

Option 2. Nobody wins. The nuclear option. The Evangelion.
Talon87 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 12:49 AM   #7
lilbluecorsola
Crying Prologue
 
lilbluecorsola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Searching for red
Posts: 4,549
Lil' Bluey

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Haruhi x Kyon falls under the domain of #3. Most Nagato Yuki fans would prefer the #1 scenario versus the #3 scenario where Yuki loses. For some reason I think you understand this better than others would.
Out of curiosity, why do you think this?

Personally, as much as I am a fan of Yuki, I don't strongly ship her with Kyon. In the same manner that I don't feasibly see ItsuHaru working out as an actual pair in the long-term, I fully recognize that Kyon and Haruhi are "destined" to be together and moreover share the most balanced dynamic. (Although I don't necessarily believe they need to end up together either, as I fully subscribe to the idea that some people are meant to meet and possibly change each other for the better, without needing to form romantic ties as a result.) My soft spot for ItsuHaru is admittedly nothing more than a wishful fantasy, and realistically my ultimate desired goal is simply for Itsuki's feelings to be acknowledged (by Haruhi) in some form.

The Kyon-Yuki pair, while cute, is one where I see Kyon as more of a "big brother/mentor" figure for her by way of teaching her to experience emotions. Although as I've mentioned before I don't object to it in the same way I do most robot romances, as Yuki was never pre-programmed to be subservient to humans and thus does not possess the ingrained proclivity to please her singular "Master". Whatever emotional capacity she does form to care for and connect to others is indeed of her own faculty and choosing, and I can support that if Kyon does end up foregoing the "first girl" for her.
__________________




Do you remember that word I loved...?

Mekakucity Actors Discussion Thread
lilbluecorsola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 01:10 AM   #8
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 11,291
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Well I mean, Code Geass is hardly a romantic comedy. I wouldn't even bill it as a romance. Do you want the discussion to center around comedies (and how shipping can be many a comedy writer's bane if romance was never his intention)? Or do you simply wish to discuss the conundrum that most romance writers find themselves in -- "How do I resolve romantic tension without pissing readers/viewers off?"
ACTUALLY there exists a quote from Taniguchi that he basically intended Geass as a Jekyll/Hyde series, where half of it was a love comedy and the other half was a war story of best friends on opposite sides of a conflict. The love comedy part (where Suzaku was still a student) was intended to make the war side seem all the more bitter.

Geass was intended as a war story with the love comedy as basically a big sideshow, but Oukouchi systemically went through and ripped apart every possible Lelouch ship before "killing" him off. It was a particularly brutal approach to dismantling the love comedy scenario.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
I think Option 2 is the rarest. I'm hard pressed to think of any examples with romcoms or comedies in general. Those are usually either Option 1 (ignore the shippers' cries) or else Option 3 (buckle in and crown one lucky girl/guy as the winner). Option 2 is usually reserved for non-romance and especially for non-comedy. Probably because it is inherently incompatible with comedy? (Maybe except for dark comedy ... ) Like ...

[NEON GENESIS EVANGELION]

The most famous "No Girl Wins" example for me would come from the non-romance, non-comedy, science-fiction thriller Neon Genesis Evangelion. Even if you've never seen Eva, it's hard to be an anime fan without recognizing the faces of Ayanami Rei and Asuka Langley. Spoiler: Shinji doesn't wind up with either girl in the end. But that's okay, because long before we reach the end of Evangelion, it's clear to viewers of all ages that Shinji isn't going to be getting any girls. (Or guys, for that matter.) That still didn't keep people from shipping him with Rei, Asuka, even Misato! I think with Eva, and a lot of dead-end, Option-2 shows that get shipped in general is, fans are more interested in waifu-ing a selected character than they are shipping a particular pair together.

While Geass isn't quite so badly off as Eva in this regard, what with Lelouch being amazing and Shinji being pathetic, I'd say there's some similar stuff going on with Geass too. People aren't so much shipping Lelouch with C.C., I'd wager, as they are waifu-ing C.C. People aren't shipping Lelouch with Karen so much as they are waifu-ing Karen. There's a chosen girl you want to "win", because she's "your waifu", she's the best, and if anyone's going to wind up with this guy romantically in the end then you want it to be her.

But to be fair, I think that can only partly explain it, as (and I may be biased here), I think Lelouch's relationship with C.C. and to a lesser extent Karen is too formative of a proper shipping.

Option 2. Nobody wins. The nuclear option. The Evangelion.
Eva does indeed qualify. There may have been some confusion between #1 and #2 that this example clears up - #1 leaves the main character's choice unresolved or ambiguous, but clearly implies that a choice still exists to be made. It's like stopping the story at the step before the finale where everyone kisses, schmoozes and goes home happy.

#2 not only cuts down the tree, but burns the roots and salts the earth around the area. Nobody wins even if nobody ends up sad. Hence, why it usually involves the main guy dying, or the main girl dying, making the ship impossible. Mecha seems like a common setting for this as most of the bittersweet romances end up in mecha shows.

But as for rarity, I think by far the least frequent is a #3 title that meets the following criteria:

1) the winner isn't the main girl
2) she also isn't the first girl
3) the title is not a multi-universe/visual novel/alt route harem

Anime adapted from stories that have multiple routes can have girls who are not #1 and #2 win. Tohsaka Rin isn't #1, although she technically is #2 (usually isn't thought of as such) and so she wins in her own route of Fate/stay night. Matou Sakurai isn't either, and similarly also wins in Heaven's Feel.

But again, as a multi-universe work, it's a bit of a cheat because Saber got her time in first and still dominates the franchise. Remember Green Green where the obnoxious pig won despite fans going FUDGE NO ? Technically allowed because it's a parallel universe/multi-route story.

The example of a show that meets all three criteria for #3 is Ichigo 100%. To best convey how this story rolled out, the main guy is Naruto and the two girls competing for him are Sakura and Hinata. Naruto dates Sakura and later dumps Sakura, learns Hinata liked him but can't give up Sakura, and instead continues to hotly pursue her. Later, there is a timeskip and reunion between the three, and Naruto reunites with and marries Sakura.

Naruto = Junpei
Sakura = Tsukasa
Hinata = Aya

Note that these events are complete opposite of what happened in the Naruto manga. This is where we get into "first girl" versus "main girl" split. In Naruto, Hinata was flagged early as the more "deserving" girl because she recognized Naruto's positive qualities first. While Sakura was technically the first girl, she was always obsessed with Sasuke and was slow to recognize Naruto's affection for her and didn't reciprocate it very well.

Ichigo 100% is strange because the main guy, Junpei, never outgrows his "Sakura" phase, and instead doubles down on her at the moment when Aya has all but surpassed him. Aya becomes more beautiful. Aya becomes more assertive. Aya becomes more successful and even follows Junpei to college, emotionally and financially supporting him. But he can't let go of his first love, and while she doesn't feel as strongly, once she sees this passion she reciprocates just as well.

Said ending caused a lot of confusion for the fanbase because of its development. The series mind sound awesome, but rather than a calculated move, it hovered as a indecisive #1 before the fans were polled by the author on "which girl should win". Tsukasa fans spammed the poll so we ended up with interesting, if uneven outcome.

Another example is The World God Only Knows, AKA TWGOK. The girl who won, while introduced early, was not featured until halfway through the series, but she went through some remarkable character development and was a catalyst for change in the main character.

The TWGOK finale is pretty controversial because the show played off shipping, with every single girl staked out by fans as a ship. And there were a lot of girls even before the final seven to choose from. There were legitimate arguments for and against who was the most deserving girl, so what the author did was single out a single objective criteria - in this case, picking a girl without supernatural powers - and then elevating that girl to "best girl" status.

It was like the scene in Akagi where Urabe picks the 2 Pin from his closed hand to deal. To an outsider, it seems like a completely random pick. But from Akagi's logic, it was the complete opposite, an subconsciously engineered decision.

TWGOK's author picked a girl early on to hold on to and slowly elevated her in status until she was selected as the winner. If you skip most of the series and just read the end it seems random, but if you start from the beginning you can see how that pyramid began with the first brick. It wasn't intended to be a pyramid until maybe halfway through construction, but the foundation was set in place with that potential.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 01:30 AM   #9
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 11,291
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilbluecorsola View Post


Out of curiosity, why do you think this?

Personally, as much as I am a fan of Yuki, I don't strongly ship her with Kyon. In the same manner that I don't feasibly see ItsuHaru working out as an actual pair in the long-term, I fully recognize that Kyon and Haruhi are "destined" to be together and moreover share the most balanced dynamic. (Although I don't necessarily believe they need to end up together either, as I fully subscribe to the idea that some people are meant to meet and possibly change each other for the better, without needing to form romantic ties as a result.) My soft spot for ItsuHaru is admittedly nothing more than a wishful fantasy, and realistically my ultimate desired goal is simply for Itsuki's feelings to be acknowledged (by Haruhi) in some form.

The Kyon-Yuki pair, while cute, is one where I see Kyon as more of a "big brother/mentor" figure for her by way of teaching her to experience emotions. Although as I've mentioned before I don't object to it in the same way I do most robot romances, as Yuki was never pre-programmed to be subservient to humans and thus does not possess the ingrained proclivity to please her singular "Master". Whatever emotional capacity she does form to care for and connect to others is indeed of her own faculty and choosing, and I can support that if Kyon does end up foregoing the "first girl" for her.
I think Kyon x Yuki is the most interesting Haruhi ship.

x Mikuru is all shallow, but it's also complicated by Big Mikuru.

Despite being a senpai, Mikuru acts more like Kyon's klutzy little sister, so his attraction to her is weird. To me it's like being attracted to a bombshell girl who just speaks in Baby Talk.

But Big Mikuru treats him like something like the younger brother of an old flame and like the old flame himself. A part of her tries to be a mentor figure (younger brother part) while another part wants to rekindle the relationship (old flame part). It's strange.

x Itsuki is all for laughs. Come on, you've gotta admit we have a lot of fun with this one.

x Haruhi is the timeline one. Haruhi is the only girl in Kyon's reference frame, even though she has secretly supernatural abilities. Mikuru came from another timeline. Itsuki came from another part of the world. Yuki came from another world entirely. Kyon is a good tsukkomi to Haruhi's boke (even though Haruhi is not dumb), nor is Haruhi a chuuni. Haruhi acts like a girl who has grown out of her chuuni phase, but wants to recapture it.

x Yuki works because it appeals to my science fiction sense. The IDSE is interested in Haruhi, but it is also interested in Earth. It primary non-human agency in the story, with both the espers and time travelers noticeably inferior in power to it. It represents humanity's future and distant destiny far better than the time travelers do. Humans naturally seek a connection to the supernatural beyond their control or understanding, usually God, but also creatures of myth, and I think that's instinctive. For the IDSE, and Nagato Yuki, there is a deeper mutual interest.

So while Kyon/Mikuru might have a physical relationship, and Kyon/Haruhi might have an experience/compatibility based one, Kyon/Yuki is the only one where both agencies are interested in other another on a deeper level.

Maybe a way to put it...

Kyon/Mikuru: Boyfriend and Girlfriend
Kyon/Haruhi: Brother and Sister
Kyon/Yuki: Father and Daughter

? It certainly feels like there's a mentorship role in there for Kyon even though he should be inferior in almost every way related to knowledge.

...

Vol-10 spoiler:

Spoiler: show

Granted, I think all of this applies prior to the "flash forward" scene in Volume 10. Tanigawa never intended Haruhi to languish in #1 territory but I can't feel like shippers were disappointed at Haruhi getting the crown like that, where there was no room for dispute.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて

Last edited by Doppleganger; 04-20-2017 at 02:39 AM. Reason: eated
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 01:42 AM   #10
lilbluecorsola
Crying Prologue
 
lilbluecorsola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Searching for red
Posts: 4,549
Lil' Bluey

I mostly agree with your assessments of the four core relationships. Although I was really wondering why specifically you thought I would "understand" better than others, and in what context you were referring to.

Also, I'd watch out for spoilers (i.e. your last paragraph). Not everyone here is up to date with the novels.
__________________




Do you remember that word I loved...?

Mekakucity Actors Discussion Thread
lilbluecorsola is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   UPNetwork > General Forums > Anime


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:46 AM.


Design By: Miner Skinz.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.