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Old 07-05-2016, 05:04 PM   #1
Doppleganger
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Rape, hook-ups, and other stuffs

Breaking news from the baseball world: Jung-ho Kang accused of sexual assault.

Why am I posting about this? Because the immediate, gut reaction to a circumstance like this is to victim blame. I know victim blaming isn't right given the black/white nature of crime, and I have no investment in this baseball player, but why sexual dynamics are so screwed up now is because of circumstances like this.

Facts:

-the woman used Bumble, meaning she initiated the hook up with him
-she went to his apartment
-she drank the alcohol he offered her

The vast majority of uses for hook-up apps like this is for casual sex. When you are a single female and go to a professional male athlete's apartment, that context seems pretty clear. It's even more blatant after accepting alcohol from him.

So why am I complaining about this? Because the allegation was leaked. It might be public knowledge so that doesn't matter anyway, but even if this was consensual and Kang gets the charges dismissed, it's reputation damaging. Now, for athletes who are rich and their talent tends to overshadow personal allegations, this is probably not a terrible thing for him.

But for ordinary people, it encourages a sterile, hands-off approach to relationships. It encourages one-sided PC. I believe I've told the story of my sister's music teacher who lost his wife, his job and his military rank because a child falsely accused him of fondling.

There needs to be a better way to protect victims while simultaneously promoting healthy relationships. Modern hook-up culture is extremely exploitative, and I don't think going back to the early 20th century solution of "oppress women" is the right option either.
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Old 07-05-2016, 07:42 PM   #2
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Dopple, I'm going to say this once, and once only. And I assure you, I mean it with absolute sincerity.

Fuck off.
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Old 07-05-2016, 07:52 PM   #3
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I'm just going to assume you're trolling, since you're missing my intent by a country mile. Please give it another go.
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Old 07-05-2016, 08:00 PM   #4
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Know nothing of the specifics of the case Dopple raises, so can't comment.

On the general topic though; I've twice hooked up with someone I wasn't dating whilst I was drunk. The first time, the girl in question was entirely sober (does not drink for medical reasons), I was blackout do not remember it drunk. No-one batted an eyelid. The second time (different girl) we were both drunk. A then friend of mine decided that because the girl in question was drunk (like I also was - we'd all been drinking all night), I was a rapist*, openly accused me of it and still won't talk to me years later.

That's the reality of the culture we live in these days; you can't be a rapist unless you're a man and if you do happen to have a penis you're automatically viewed as a potential sex offender. I'm reluctant to call this feminism going too far because feminism has done and continues to do a great deal of good in the world and men are still the dominant gender with most of the advantages without ever doing a thing to earn them, but there do exist some things made by feminism that are grossly unfair against men and this is one of them. Nothing that outweighs the incredible prejudice that exists against women across most of the world, of course, but that doesn't mean that acknowledging those things that are unfair against men is wrong.

*The girl I hooked up with and I actually started dating immediately, so safe to say she did not agree.
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Old 07-05-2016, 08:13 PM   #5
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Dopple, I'm going to say this once, and once only. And I assure you, I mean it with absolute sincerity.

Fuck off.
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To say nothing of the fact that you are trivializing false accusations of rape and the problem this presents for real rape victims. If nothing else we are right to investigate this topic and hold a wholesome conversation just so the community can recognize that while it's important not to accuse all "Rape!" criers of lying that it's just as important to not lend them full credit either. A healthy dose of scrutiny is important in any criminal investigation.
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Old 07-05-2016, 08:19 PM   #6
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Some background, then:

Domestic violence, sexual assaults, DUIs and other crimes have been punished more strongly in the NBA and MLB lately, independent of legal proceedings. It's great for the game trying to sell itself as socially responsible (in comparison to the thuggish NFL) but has revealed a number of systemic biases, namely

-non-whites are accused overwhelmingly
-fans split into two camps, those who blame the victim and those who think the accused is automatically guilty
-players recover but suffer from tangible reputation damage (in terms of salary)

Most of these cases get dropped due to lack of evidence, which sucks for the women who are legitimately raped.

That is the likely case for the Kang situation: the judge is going to look at the circumstances, deduce that she probably had some kind of clue she was going to have sex with Kang, and not find evidence of rape.

That alone isn't why I'm bringing this to topic, though. I'm bringing it up because Western dating culture is all sorts of screwed up now. In the past, I don't think a judge would assume that using dating apps (coded language for hook-ups) and going to another man's house implied sex would happen. There was no such context or expectation, so it would be far more obvious if a rape occurred just if a sex act occurred.

Alcohol is a pretty clear-cut situation: if the girl is drunk, or even slightly inebriated, she can't consent so it's automatically rape.

But beyond that, we have issues where the threat of accusation is so powerful if someone takes that accusation to the internet, or the public, it can destroy someone's career whether they're guilty or not. Yet, without accusations, rapes and other such crimes go under-reported and un-punished, so we're in a bad situation where those with ill-intent can come out on top in either case.

This is only possible because the line between what is and what isn't unwanted attention, if it still exists, is so thin it's close to invisible.

More or less, that's what I'm interested in here - solutions or musings on these complicated matters.
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Old 07-05-2016, 09:00 PM   #7
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I don't really like to delve into the nitty-gritty details of this but I have to say that I am genuinely disappointed and disgusted by the "guilty until proven innocent" attitude that has arisen around sex crimes in the US. So many forces seek to immediately demonize the accused even before their trials have started that even the exonerated will struggle to come back from the incident once it's all over. It's really an issue beyond just rape, especially when what can only really be considered petty misdemeanors like public sex can land you on a sex offender list and ruin your life for good.

Obviously it's a very much a walk across an entangled web of intersecting tightropes, so there will very rarely be such thing as an open-and-shut case of sexual assault outside of perhaps serial rapists and rape-murders and I'm going to be very much inclined to trust the victim, but letting the power shift entirely into the accuser's hands is pretty unjust.

Rape is a horrible and violent crime but I think we have a pretty poor understanding of it in both society and our legal system.

> Alcohol is a pretty clear-cut situation: if the girl is drunk, or even slightly inebriated, she can't consent so it's automatically rape.

But what if the man is drunk and the girl isn't (like Concept's scenario)? Or both participants are drunk? Alcohol is impairing, but it doesn't completely knock you out or force you to do things you would never do. Obviously, if the person is clearly inebriated, like a bartender would cut them off drunk, or passed out, yeah, they're probably not really in control. But, I've been plenty drunk before and never felt out of control of my actions or body.

This also brings up the point that is quite salient for me - the diminishing and dismissal of male rape victims, but that's really neither here nor there in this specific discussion.
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Old 07-05-2016, 09:11 PM   #8
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No means no. Stop means stop.

It's not more clear cut than that. I don't know too many specifics on this case nor do I have the time to look into them at the moment, but no matter how many drinks the other party has had, no matter how many cues they've given you, it doesn't even matter if they're in the bed and all of their clothes are off. If they say 'No' or 'Stop', you need to immediately respect that. Proceeding any further at that point in time becomes sexual assault. If you talk it over and they once again give consent, then fine, but beyond that there's nothing more that needs to really be said on the topic unless you want to discuss false accusations and blackmail/etc.
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Old 07-05-2016, 09:48 PM   #9
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If guys stopped every time a girl said no, nobody would get laid.
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Old 07-05-2016, 10:03 PM   #10
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Goddammit Mozz.
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Old 07-05-2016, 11:00 PM   #11
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Good points made so far about false accusations and how even those who are declared innocent can have terribly damaged reputations. Recently my mom and I watched the ESPN 30 for 30 documentary Fantastic Lies, which detailed sexual assault/rape allegations made against three Duke University lacrosse players about ten years ago. My mom approached me about watching it, and said "it's about the lacrosse players that raped a girl." About a half hour into the movie she asked, "Do you know how it ends? I'm assuming they're guilty." This is because she remembered the media coverage from when it first happened, and how the players were declared guilty... in the court of public opinion. The actual result of the case was that three players turned out to be innocent.

Like there was even video footage of one of the players at an ATM during the time of the alleged rape, so it's not like this was even a case of "we don't have enough evidence to prove that you're guilty," it was a case of these three players being innocent. But the media didn't report nearly as heavily or as much on the final verdict, so you still have people like my mom who just assume that they were guilty due to the initial biased reporting. The reputation damage is something like people can often not recover from, and it's a real shame.

---

Agreeing 100% with deo. As someone who has "hooked up" with people at college, both with and without the presence of alcohol, it is super important to respect when people say no. And if I have even an inkling that a person has had enough alcohol to impair their judgment there's no way that I'm doing anything that has the potential to come back and bite me.
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Old 07-06-2016, 12:28 AM   #12
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I think we can all agree that it is disgraceful that the allegation was leaked and even more disgraceful that everyone will automatically think he is guilty even if he is found not to be. I really don't know what more to say about this other than this is 100% a societal problem, a problem with the mindset of the masses. This just shouldn't be happening based on a simple accusation.

I'm also not very comfortable with the alcohol thing. Clearly if someone is drunk they are unable to consent. Well, what if you're drunk too? Suddenly that turns it from not rape to rape based on whether some other person is drunk? Where do you draw the line at being drunk? And you have to admit that unfortunately this opens up the door to false accusations.

I'm going to point fingers here because there has been a perfect example. SoS's reaction is an absolutely perfect example of why groups like TRP get more and more joiners. Partly, of course, because many people are complete assholes. But also because nobody wants to admit that false accusations are a thing. And so, the only people who talk about them tend to be the people who are so far off to the extreme that if you listened to them you'd think rape ever happened, simply because people with less extreme views aren't ever going to talk about it. And it's a problem. A problem so large that it's a big reason why marital rape isn't illegal in India.

Discussion about it isn't easy, obviously. Conducting studies about this is even harder. And of course, it is obviously impossible to actually have a punishment for people who accuse falsefully. It's a difficult and complicated issue, and I can only hope that people who can actually figure it out, at least to a degree, are thinking and working on it. But a gigantic amount of the blame simply has to be put on society for forgetting about innocent until proven guilty.
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Old 07-07-2016, 10:52 AM   #13
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I am liking the opinions shared here. I would like to point out, though, that "Yes means yes" is a safer and more reliable way for men to handle sexual assault and sex crimes. It's not as intuitive as no means no, because many sexual incidents happen without actual explicit verbal consent (a result of passion), but it's a nice thing to secure before you do anything, especially if there's a shred of doubt about consent such as the presence of alcohol.
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Old 07-07-2016, 02:16 PM   #14
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I don't know, Shuckle. While I admit I have literally no experience with this sort of thing (being a smol 16 year old) I feel like when somebody's had 6 drinks a yes means less than it did at the start of the night, whereas a "no" should have the same weight no matter the level of sobriety- and that weight is "step the fuck off". Of course the explicit verbal consent would be a good thing to have, but considering that if enough alcohol is involved the consent will mean virtually nothing and, as you said, many sexual experiences happen without that explicit verbal consent and still most certainly aren't rape or assault, I feel like expecting every man to follow a counter intuitive rule like that regardless of the situation is unrealistic.

Moving from Shuckle's post to the general topic, though, I would argue there really is no good way to deal with people who falsely accuse others of sexual assault- skepticism on a topic like this can turn very, very quickly into victim blaming, and that's the last thing we want. All we can really hope for in terms of change on this subject is that we as a culture accept that sexual assault is far from clear cut black and white. While yes, Males can and horrifically frequently do rape females, they also can and horrifically frequently do rape other males, and females in fact can and do rape both other females and males as well. Furthermore, false accusations can and do occur in all of those scenarios. Our culture and especially our media does a terrible job of representing these facts- if you listen to them no one has ever falsely accused anyone of sexual assault and the only cases that ever occur are males assaulting females. All of this is a gross oversimplification that allows for rapists to get away without so much as a scratch on them and for innocent people to get unduly punished and in fact occasionally have their entire lives ruined because of a misunderstanding.
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Old 07-07-2016, 02:54 PM   #15
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As someone who is a sexual assault survivor I have to first of all put a great deal of emphasis on the fact that people need to respect each other and their boundaries. But even I have to agree that Dopple makes a good points about false accusations. False accusations damage the credibility of actual sexual assault survivors and feed in to the narrative of victim blaming that is going on, and we need to do everything we can to make sure that false accusations become a thing of the past. And yes, I know that false accusations are only a small portion of cases but those few cases always tend to draw more attention than a rapist being successfully prosecuted.

More also needs to be done about removing the stigma for people who come forward and say that they've been raped. People don't come forward because they are often afraid of public ridicule or of people siding with their rapist over them, or because they don't think that they would be able to win the case and that it would hurt their future prospects. It's a combination of those three things and the special stigma towards male survivors why I never came forward and have still to this day only told a small number of people outside of this site about it. I wish that people like me and the many others who don't come forward wouldn't have to be afraid to do so.

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That's the reality of the culture we live in these days; you can't be a rapist unless you're a man and if you do happen to have a penis you're automatically viewed as a potential sex offender. I'm reluctant to call this feminism going too far because feminism has done and continues to do a great deal of good in the world and men are still the dominant gender with most of the advantages without ever doing a thing to earn them, but there do exist some things made by feminism that are grossly unfair against men and this is one of them. Nothing that outweighs the incredible prejudice that exists against women across most of the world, of course, but that doesn't mean that acknowledging those things that are unfair against men is wrong.
Also I can't help but adding to this that in addition to only men being rapists, men also can't be raped, because "what kind of man would let something like that happen to him".

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I am liking the opinions shared here. I would like to point out, though, that "Yes means yes" is a safer and more reliable way for men to handle sexual assault and sex crimes. It's not as intuitive as no means no, because many sexual incidents happen without actual explicit verbal consent (a result of passion), but it's a nice thing to secure before you do anything, especially if there's a shred of doubt about consent such as the presence of alcohol.
I agree with this that a verbal (and sober, especially sober) is what should be required in order to initiate sex. A no, though, even a blackout drunk no, especially a blackout drunk no, also has to be more than enough to end sex after it has started if one of the people does not wish to continue.
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