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Old 05-13-2016, 05:26 AM   #126
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Care to elaborate?
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Old 05-13-2016, 08:39 AM   #127
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>Type changes
Unless the Pokémon will be gaining more or have as many weakness than it previously had, you generally should generally keep at least one weakness from the type you retain (with the exception of dual to mono type changes). Additionally, you should not have fewer than roughly 2 weaknesses as a result of a type change.

What are the stipulations for mono to duo? Some mono to duo grant the same net number of weakness.

What about a dual with 7 [where one is even a 4x] weakness to another dual, but the new combo drops it down to 3 2x?
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Old 05-13-2016, 12:39 PM   #128
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Honestly, I'm not sure if we should nitpick these guidelines so throroughly. At least not in the fashion that we do SCs and Move Descriptions. Early in the thread Slash said something about these guidelines taking the art and creativity out of sig making. A few others have expressed similar sentiments. At the moment, I don't necessarily agree with that. I feel that the guidelines as they are allow for creative sigs to be made and that the guidelines simply make them easier to get passed. But part of what allows for that is the general nature of the guidelines, especially with Jeri at the helm. What they mean are fluid to a certain extent, depending on the Pokemon and the sig. The more specific and nitpicky we make them, the less that general fluidity will exist. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. It's really just a vibe I get from what I interpret the nature of sigs to be, I guess.
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Old 05-13-2016, 12:56 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beautiful Savage View Post
Care to elaborate?
Elaboration: General Sig Rules
Having strict rules for sigs is an inherently bad idea outside of niche situations such as hard to balance things such as Ghost states or the like. This is because it greatly limits creative freedom and fun in a PASBL where creativity and fun are honestly what make the League even worth approaching as a means of entertainment. Entertainment of course being why anyone ever plays a game to begin with, even a text based one such as this.

Additionally by having strict rules we put ourselves in a situation where, because there are caps on benefits and mandatory amounts of drawback we end up putting the shittiest of Pokemon like Unown to the same standards of pokemon like Snorlax, Gengar or Metagross in terms of what we ask them to give up in order to obtain as well as denying pokemon like Unown (or more reasonable examples such as Lilligant, Eevee, Kriketot, and Wormadon) the ability to crawl out of their poor usability by putting a cap on how much they are allowed to bolster their rather unfortunate movepools. This going back to my original point of getting rid of potential fun and creative elements by preventing trainers from being able to use their favorite Pokemon due to just how shit they are baseline, a thing PASBL has in the past avoided by allowing sigs without the proposed restrictions.


Individual Rules: Thoughts

Type Charge Edits
Saying an Abomasnow needs as much drawback for this type of sig as basically any other pokemon is a bad idea

Type Changes
No problems with this one, although once again limiting the amount of moves a person can have is always bad and having a set drawback is also bad.

Blanket Stat Changes
Should add some wiggle room for adding related moves, like if someone wants to sig "Pokemon gets a boost to Kick moves and learns [KICK MOVES] that shouldn't be cockblocked by the boost counting as a sig.

Moveset Alterations
Movepuddles exist, this rule is bad and I don't think I need to explain any further why it is...why did you think this was a good idea to implement?

Items and Weapons
I mean, people circumvent this with energy constructs all the time but sure, it's been a rule since forever.

Entry Hazards
Limiting the number of effects is really not needed and far too strict, it should be approves discretion if it goes overboard, although perhaps a general rule of no Omni-Hazards should exist or something.

Type Energy Sigs
But what about SC alterations for infinite energy on shit like Florges and Klinklang?

(Some not mentioned due to lack of problems or thoughts on them)
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Old 05-13-2016, 01:40 PM   #130
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I think a lot of people are misconstruing what these guidelines are. It seems to me that this is Jeri's approach to sigs, and he's being nice enough to let us voice our concerns and know what to expect rather than just throwing us in to the fray and watching us flounder.

It's rather hard to believe that every Sig LO has looked at every sig done in the past without knowing what they believe to be acceptable. The only difference between that and this is that we know how Jeri looks at sigs ahead of time.
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Old 05-13-2016, 02:20 PM   #131
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I am going to throw it out there that as far as I am aware Jeri has literally stated in no uncertain terms that he is fine with allowing worse Pokemon to get away with slightly more and bend the guidelines a tad.
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Old 05-13-2016, 02:23 PM   #132
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Just use restriction. Dont try to turn a shitmon normal into a snorlax clone
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Old 05-13-2016, 02:26 PM   #133
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Those who complain about it have had it made painfully clear to them in this very thread on more than one occasion. They just want to be upset and won't listen to reason, I think.
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Old 05-18-2016, 09:24 AM   #134
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I know this is just about a week or so old but can we get some official input as to what may or may not happen? People are beginning to submit new Signatures already and while they are presumably allowed to I want to wait until we have some sort of course of action in place.
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Old 05-18-2016, 09:36 AM   #135
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At the end of the day, a lot of it is just a schism in the ASB between the people who get their fun from creativity and people who get their fun from the competitive aspect. Creativity camp people want unrestricted freedom, and people in the competitive camp want a fair, balanced game. I, personally, think the people who are complaining this limits creativity are being somewhat silly. Giving a Pokemon new, already existent moves really isn't all that creative. Creating your own move is much, much more so, and honestly, I think the guidelines encourage things like that more, which is a good thing. "Unlimited Creativity" might please some people, but it would then create more drama in battles because a large portion of the ASB enjoys the competitive aspect. These limitations create a sense of balance, and honestly, it doesn't kill creativity like some people are claiming.
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Old 05-18-2016, 07:11 PM   #136
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I meant to get this together this week but I've been busy at work and I'm getting a little sick so I'll try to get to it as soon as I can. I'll also be away this weekend so it might not get done that quickly; sorry.

As for submitting new sigs, I guess you can but there's really not much point until this gets all hashed out.
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Old 05-20-2016, 12:26 AM   #137
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Quick question: when the leadership decides on a policy, if it's not an extremely simple one, will they post it here for reasonable critique and debate on certain pieces of it, or will it be put into executive action straight from the LO forum?
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Old 05-20-2016, 07:16 AM   #138
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I feel like everyone who has an opinion has stated theirs on everything in this thread already, so unless it comes straight out of left field I would assume there would be no further discussion. Why waste time discussing for another week when we've all already said our respective pieces multiple times? xp
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Last edited by Snorby; 05-20-2016 at 07:22 AM. Reason: bad grammar is why I shouldn't type when I'm sick.
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Old 05-20-2016, 07:19 AM   #139
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I haven't 100% decided on how I want to approach this but it'll probably be a hybrid of approaches.
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Old 05-21-2016, 07:39 AM   #140
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Yeah, I figured the solution wouldn't end up something clean and simple. That's really why I asked. The difference between hitting a lot of notes and hitting the right ones and all.
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Old 05-21-2016, 12:04 PM   #141
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So there is the rule of 6 moves max, but there are no sig rules for size manipulation + moves.

Could we get a hybrid of that? Changing the size of a pokemon counts as two moves or something to talk ilk? I know it common to up-size the rodents such as Dedenne and Pachirisu and add moves in tandem.
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Old 05-21-2016, 01:21 PM   #142
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I feel like that's covered under "crappy pokemon getting away with more".
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Old 05-22-2016, 01:27 AM   #143
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rules are bad....bleh no one cares >_›
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Old 05-22-2016, 09:45 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerichi View Post
I probably should not have labeled these as rules - my intention for this more than anything is to be a guidebook for sig approvers so that there is some sort of common ground for current/future approvals so that everyone has some sort of expectations of what is acceptable coming into this. That said, I'm never going to be able to capture all possible sigs, but this way there are at least some very clear limits to define the space in which people can work and create instead of just kind of leaving it up to the individual to make judgement calls based on a nebulous idea of experience and their own personal ideas of balance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorby View Post
Don't worry, Trot. Jeri has said the new changes are guidelines rather than rules and he misspoke in the OP. He's even said that he (unlike Kush) is largely fine with giving worse 'mon better sigs!
Good jesus Zelphon learn to read for fuck's sake.
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Old 05-22-2016, 10:31 AM   #145
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I only read the OP and responses to my posts :c
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Old 05-29-2016, 07:58 AM   #146
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Alright I went through the first two pages and made some edits to the guidelines accordingly. However I am not really in the mood to sort through 4 pages of debate for a paltry number of critiques. Are there any more suggestions before I do my final readthrough and we start the process?
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Old 05-29-2016, 08:12 AM   #147
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This is in reference to moves that are similar to Freeze Dry, and gain an additional unnatural SE damage. Also, I have seen stab options do just the same. Should these be treated separately?

Some guidelines on moves that alter the type chart would be nice. Are they allowed, How many types can step out of the type chart, how many times can they be used, and what are the limitations? Whatever else needs to be cleared up about them would be nice.
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Old 05-29-2016, 08:28 AM   #148
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Moves like Freeze-Dry are pretty much all I will accept. There have been sigs that have altered type charts in more than one way in the past and they have been almost universally broken.
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Old 05-29-2016, 09:06 AM   #149
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Quote:
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Moves like Freeze-Dry are pretty much all I will accept. There have been sigs that have altered type charts in more than one way in the past and they have been almost universally broken.
So one additional SE. Good, that works and sounds fair. Can it be applied to stab?

"This pokemon's normal moves are SE against Steel types."
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Old 05-29-2016, 09:18 AM   #150
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Most definitely not.
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