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Old 05-11-2016, 06:30 PM   #76
Slash
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Might I ask why you're so dead-set against a reset when you're basically fine with a complicated scheduled appointment plan that will never shake out right and ends up basically a run-around of a reset?

Also, it doesn't erase people's hard work. They can totally resubmit any current sigs they have that they feel are balanced. There's not going to be a thing with "no you had this before so you can't have it now" unless it shouldn't have existed in the first place. And a reset does it more efficiently and without the chances of anything sliding through the cracks.

Like I get that you said you're against a reset just on principle, but... why? If you're doing something that's similar, but less efficient, has more margin for error, takes longer, and will never stick to a real schedule, why not just go for the cleaner option?

And then:

Quote:
Maybe we should have a period of "no sigs."
Which is exactly what a reset would do during the time between the actual resetting and the approval rounds

EDIT: This was @Rhee
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Old 05-11-2016, 06:40 PM   #77
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Gotcha, Slash.

Again, I get why a complete reset's a good idea. I understand it's so much less complicated than other ideas that have been proposed. But I don't know. I guess to me, it just kinda seems like throwing in the towel. Why not do it when it's cleaner and more efficient? I guess it's because we have a chance here to actually collaborate as a community on something that's productive and constructive for the future of the ASB, and though that might be inefficient, I think in the long run, it's worth it. And don't get me wrong, none of the ideas I've seen are going to be easy (and some, not even plausible) at all. I wish I could come up with something better. And certainly, if nothing better does show up, I wouldn't be totally opposed to a reset. But I guess I just hope that it's not necessary. Some aspects of the ideas proposed have merit, and more importantly, they give us a chance as a community to grow. So, yes, I am opposed to a reset mostly on principle, but I think that it's a good principle to be opposed to it on. IDK, does that make any sense?
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Old 05-11-2016, 06:45 PM   #78
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Before I begin, I'd like to sincerely thank you for elaborating. Constructive Criticism can make mediocre ideas good and good ideas, great, so as long as it's constructive, I love it when my ideas are torn apart XD

I'll start by saying that, at least in my view, having a thread for that sort of thing seems suboptimal to me. It basically requires the approver to go over every sig they reject a second time, and having that kind of discussion in public, as shown by Sig Court, often times ends terribly.

Moving on, It's true that Jeri is our only current sig approver. While that is an issue, I think it's a fairly small one. For one thing, it would be an issue with any proposal that involves laying a finger on old sigs. For another, the time it would take to actually TRAIN somebody is very dependent on the person. Kush, a former Sig LO? He can do it right now, probably. Connor? He could probably do it just fine with a quick briefing on some dos and donts. Slash would be in the same boat. Somebody like MtG or Kamen would take some time to train. Real life getting in the way will absolutely happen, but when we have what, 30-40 people with sigs and 108 time slots, rescheduling shouldn't be an issue.

If you think the time is an issue, take a look at how long it takes Jeri or SS to go through a few submissions when they do sigs- it's a couple minutes a post. Not everyone has a Connor-sized Squad- if you look at the breakdown Apost did, really it would probably only take a half hour per squad on average. Throw in another half hour of discussion with someone about their squad, you're looking at an average of 3 hours a week, which isn't THAT much considering how huge an undertaking this will be. Additionally, talking about sigs doesn't have to be in real time- there's a 7 day window for a reason. If timezones are problematic, and you can get 2 PMs to eachother in a day (NOT necessarily Daily, just 2 every day you communicate), you should be able to finish your dialogue very easily in the week's window.

Further Benefits I think RMG summed up really nicely, and after AP testing all day today and all the typing I've done now that I'm home if I'm being honest I don't really want to reiterate what he said. Apologies, but my best response to that question is "Scroll up" XD

EDIT: This was @Alto

EDIT the Second: I thought I'd mention that really, my position on a reset is similar to that of RMG. I'd say something that drastic should be the last resort, not the first resort.
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Old 05-11-2016, 06:48 PM   #79
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Ah, you see it as quitting. I see it as New Game+

We all still have our lessons learned from previous sigging, Some of us have several sigs that can easily be resubmitted, or retooled to be even better, after the reset. We still keep our EXP and Items, we just need to relearn some skills and maybe learn some better ones. Plus, as has been mentioned, a lot of us heavier hitters when it comes to squad size won't exactly be submitting everything at once, so the reset and subsequent approval cycle would be even quicker and much less daunting. I'm not saying put limits on how many sigs you can have pending per cycle (hard limits are bad and some sigs are extraordinarily simple), but most of us are going to use logic and exercise self-control.
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Old 05-11-2016, 07:06 PM   #80
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I mean,

yeah, I guess that's true.

I think ultimately it comes down to whether or not we believe that as a community a New Game+ is something that will actually get people to learn from their mistakes, or whether we should use the opportunity a bunch of new guidelines affords us to try and teach people. Or, alternatively, it make come down to whether or not we think people can actually be taught. In other words, do we think that people smart enough to be taught how sig balance works will be able to learn post-reset anyway, and that those who aren't can't be taught anyway?

Maybe these aren't the questions I should be asking. I really don't know. But yeah. I hope that we can make this constructive, as opposed to destructive, whatever direction we elect to go.
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Old 05-11-2016, 08:00 PM   #81
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I feel like people need to understand that while a dialogue can and should exist, it should not during the review period. We are already going to spend fucking ages doing this. Having a two way conversation will turn a few minute review period into a full blown hour, and this very quickly gets away. I am not in a position of power and so do not care if people hate me but frankly there are far too many people in the League who will be absurdly staunch about their baby sig X and Y which they believe aren't broken. If you think these people will back down given the option you are probably wrong and this will severely lengthen the process.

As much as he is rusty as all shit Alto's suggestion of creating an actually active 'Why was my sig rejected' thread could be the easiest and cleanest way of handling this. Obviously there would have to be an actual response and I can totally understand where apprehension will come from with regards to that but ASB as a whole is not good at scheduling things and yet you want to try this. I think you can see where I am coming from with that.
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Old 05-11-2016, 08:08 PM   #82
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I'm going to be perfectly honest and say from my years of experience doing this that most people don't know the first thing about what a balanced sig is and that having dialogues about sig approvals are just going to muddy the waters and slow things down. I'd rather have definitive approvals than conferences and allow people to ask questions about denials than try to talk their way into the sig they want.
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Old 05-11-2016, 08:26 PM   #83
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Jeri, do you have plans to train up more sig approvers? I figured that you would basically -need- to enlist the help, but if I'm mistaken on that, let me know. If you do, I'd like to reiterate that the period after a wipe where no sigs can be used very efficiently to conduct on-the-job training that won't have negative impacts in-league.
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Old 05-11-2016, 08:37 PM   #84
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Quote:
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Both approaches have obvious advantages and disadvantages, though regardless of which we pick, we will be enlisting some help to deal with the backlog this will create and hopefully keep sig approvals more regular than they have been in the recent past.
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As for manpower, I am going to be taking nominations for new approvers at some point. We've identified a few people independently (relatedly, so not send me 500 recommendations of Sneasel) but we would like more suggestions.
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Old 05-11-2016, 08:42 PM   #85
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Can a custom move have two effects at once if it doesn't deal damage?
Got skipped over so asking again
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Old 05-11-2016, 08:44 PM   #86
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Oh, yeah, that would be okay.
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Old 05-11-2016, 08:46 PM   #87
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Can I get some clarification on some of the sig guidelines?

4) Moveset Alterations
You may pick up a maximum of 6 moves. These moves may not be more than 3 different types. You can pick up a maximum of two moves without dropping any moves, but if you pick up 3 or more moves, you must drop at least two. Outside of the one "free move", you must drop at least one move of roughly equivalent power or effect for every offensive move you add, and drop one move of any kind for each non-damaging move you pick up. If you have two or more moves that are effectively identical (e.g. Protect/Detect/Safeguard, Heal Bell/Refresh, etc.), you must drop both moves for it to be considered one move. If you add a move, your Pokémon must be reasonably able to perform the move for it to work (i.e. have the proper limbs, have similar moves, etc.). If you pick up moves of two or more types that the Pokémon does not naturally have access to, you must give up a type energy. You may not add Transform or Sketch, and Smeargle may not add Sketch slots.

What if the moves are of the pokemon's own type? Could the rule only apply to moves not part of the pokemon's original type?

I also got glossed over earlier. What about adding moves and then changing their type to the user's type? Not the -ate variation, but changing the type of one move or two. What are the rules on that?
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Old 05-11-2016, 08:49 PM   #88
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Oh, yeah, that would be okay.
I wrote in a little blip about undamaging moves.

> What if the moves are of the pokemon's own type? Could the rule only apply to moves not part of the pokemon's original type?

I'd rather keep it at a hard three. If we make it so STAB is free, you can effectively end up picking up moves of 6 types if you count Normal.

> I also got glossed over earlier. What about adding moves and then changing their type to the user's type? Not the -ate variation, but changing the type of one move or two. What are the rules on that?

I intentionally left that off as I was unsure of what would be balanced while still making this a useful type of sig. My initial thought was 3.
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Old 05-11-2016, 08:51 PM   #89
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I wrote in a little blip about undamaging moves.

> What if the moves are of the pokemon's own type? Could the rule only apply to moves not part of the pokemon's original type?

I'd rather keep it at a hard three. If we make it so STAB is free, you can effectively end up picking up moves of 6 types if you count Normal.

> I also got glossed over earlier. What about adding moves and then changing their type to the user's type? Not the -ate variation, but changing the type of one move or two. What are the rules on that?

I intentionally left that off as I was unsure of what would be balanced while still making this a useful type of sig. My initial thought was 3.
well is it two separate sigs then? adding moves + changing their type
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Old 05-11-2016, 08:54 PM   #90
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That was one of the things I'm the most on the fence about. I'll get back to you about that.
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Old 05-11-2016, 08:57 PM   #91
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Oh, my other questions OTL

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Somethings need to be clarified that come to my mind at the moment.

-Freeze-Dry esque sigs that create 3x SE damage need some clarification and/or guidelines?
--Dual type moves, some guidelines would be nice.

-Sigs like Dave's Druddigon. What are the stipulations for moves of that nature?
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Raising his arm, Gaarg fires a pulse of light blue energy from his palm at the opponent, dealing significant damage while using as much energy. This attack doesn't have a defined type, but has its roots in advanced energy from a civilisation that has faded into myth, and as such is crafted to strike other legendary opponents. Hydra Blast is considered super-effective against Dragon, Fairy and Ghost-type Pokémon, but is not very effective against Electric, Fire, Grass or Water-types, as these types are too grounded in reality to be susceptible to supernatural means. Hydra Blast is usable twice per battle.


-Sigs that emulate badges, are those allowed?

-Can we swap movepool for tyoe chart edits?
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Old 05-11-2016, 09:06 PM   #92
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Not sure how I feel about Freeze-Dry moves yet, there is already something that kind of mentions dual-type moves, no and no.
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Old 05-11-2016, 09:12 PM   #93
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Freeze-Dry mechanic moves should be allowable and able to 3x so long as they're kept at lowish power like Freeze Dry itself is, to be honest.

And as for sigs that emulate badges, there are things like the Placoid Badge that should be easy to replicate via sig, maybe even Fundamental, so I disagree with a flat no.
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Old 05-11-2016, 09:14 PM   #94
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Mm yeah things like that perhaps but badges tend to be more powerful than average sigs so I would rather say no.

That said I probably would not notice if someone tries to pass a badge effect as a sig that is relatively balanced so my no is not really that meaningful.
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Old 05-11-2016, 09:18 PM   #95
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All I'm hearing here is that Dave and I could have gotten much more mileage out of our badges if we shot higher
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Old 05-11-2016, 09:39 PM   #96
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Old 05-11-2016, 09:41 PM   #97
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Old 05-11-2016, 09:43 PM   #98
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Clarification about Items: if the item in question is not really capable of doing much combatively (i.e. your average banana) would that be fine? Like I can understand not allowing Sawk to carry a club and all but if the thing can't really be used effectively as a weapon in real life by a person I would think that maybe it would be fine so long as the item is only used to activate a sig and is preferably entirely disposed of (i.e. the banana peel does not remain on the field as a slipping hazard).
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Old 05-11-2016, 09:47 PM   #99
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You can kill a man with a banana. There's several ways to do it.

Honestly by that point just make it an energy construct that it creates in battle.
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Old 05-11-2016, 09:59 PM   #100
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Well yes but I'd assume may of them involve shoving the thing down another's throat, and let's face it, few Pokemon have mouths of that exact size. Ignoring that, I doubt a Pokemon knows how to choke another one with a banana. When you can breathe fire and make earthquakes, choking things with objects isn't exactly a skill you pick up.
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244) While not FORBIDDEN, my Midnight is to keep in mind that using an army of animated skeletons in order to fill the town square with a rendition of "Spooky Scary Skeletons" is going to be considered odd at best.
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