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Old 10-22-2017, 01:47 PM   #1
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Victini ASB Revamp Update: Pokemon Prices!

Hello ASB!

We told you that we'd be getting to work on the revamp once we closed the discussion thread, and we're happy to say we kept that promise!

We'll be meting out tidbits of what's to come as we work, both to get your input as well as to just keep you guys posted on what's going on.

As anyone who read the title can tell, today I'm unveiling Pokemon Prices. That's right, we've decided we're ditching Acquisition Levels and are looking at a purchase system. You'll be spending Acquisition Points on Pokemon, which will cost between 1 and 10 points a piece. Here's a Google Sheet with every single non-legendary Pokemon, they're old/current TL Requirement, and their future Price.

Acquisition Points will be purchasable with SP, with 10 SP buying a single AP. Things like specifics of getting AP outside of buying it (which, ideally, will be a secondary method) have yet to be finalized, and will probably be detailed in a future update about TLs or something.

Feel free to give us any thoughts you have. All thoughts are welcome, and we'll read every post made here, but that doesn't mean every change suggested will be implemented. We're posting these prices because we like what we've come up with- if we didn't like it we'd still be working on it! That doesn't mean nothing can be done to further improve it, or that you shouldn't make suggestions, but it's important to keep in mind nonetheless.

If anyone's interested, the number of 'mon at each price is broken down in the spoiler below.

Spoiler: show
10 Points- 9 Pokemon
9 Points- 7 Pokemon
8 Points- 11 Pokemon
7 Points- 17 Pokemon
6 Points- 25 Pokemon
5 Points- 47 Pokemon
4 Points- 95 Pokemon
3 Points- 111 Pokemon
2 Points- 135 Pokemon
1 Point- 291 Pokemon


Some potentially relevant points:
-Mega Stones will cost an additional amount of AP, between 1 and 3 depending on the stone. This is largely in keeping with their current price of 20 SP.
-The most expensive NFE Pokemon cost 5 AP.
-The most basic stage of any evolving line costs, at most, 3 AP.
-I'm personally thinking about 15-17 AP to start a TL1 trainer with, but this is extremely preliminary.
-Prices will change over time just as Acquisition Levels have.

How Refunds/Sellbacks will work

Basically, you'll be able to get a full refund if you drop a mon, but you'll need to get the refund rubberstamped a la the HP thread (it'll be in a different thread though). This is just to prevent abuse of the system, really, and as long as you aren't trying to game the system your drops should pretty much always be approved.

How Evolution will work

First, pokemon don't have levels anymore, so rejoice! No more levelling. Also, it's important to note you don't pay twice. If you're picking up a Bulbasaur you spend 1 AP, then you spend one more AP to evolve it into Ivysaur for a total of two, then three more to evolve it into Venusaur for a total of 5. You don't spend 1, then 2, then 5 for a total of 8. You must use a form in one battle or squad it in two before evolving.

Post away! c;
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Old 10-22-2017, 04:11 PM   #2
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this is the kind of good shit that would attract certain absent parties back to ASB
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Old 10-22-2017, 06:38 PM   #3
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There was some discussion on the discord about trainer levels and how quickly ASBers should get through them. We need to know that so we can figure out how much AP to give at each TL. A scale which we all seemed pretty happy with is:

TL1 = 0 KOs
TL2 = 10 KOs
TL3 = 25 KOs
TL4 = 45 KOs
TL5 = 65 KOs
TL6 = 90 KOs
TL7 = 120 KOs
TL8 = 155 KOs
TL9 = 195 KOs
TL10 = 235 KOs

Assuming a battler gains 3.3 KOs/month on average, they would hit TL2 after 3 months, TL4 in a little over a year, and TL10 after six years. The scale was made with this in mind, so if anyone disagrees with that rate of gaining KOs, then the model will need to be adjusted to suit.

If anyone wants to play with the numbers, Alto proposed a quadratic model which I made a calculator for here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing - On the left side, A and B controls by how much the required KOs to reach the next level increases, and the base amount of KOs required to reach TL2, respectively. This produces a list of KOs required for each TL and an estimate for how long it'll take in months (using the rate at the top of the spreadsheet). The right side is a reverse of that, where you can use X and Y to adjust the months required to automatically calculate an equivalent number of KOs. The settings to produce the chart above were (a, b) = (6, 4) and (x, y) = (1.75, 1.25), averaged and rounded to the nearest 5 KOs.
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Old 10-22-2017, 08:59 PM   #4
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So just to clarify, I can't just pick up a Venusaur for 5 AP? I'd have to get a Bulbasaur for 1 AP then level it?
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Old 10-22-2017, 09:05 PM   #5
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You are correct - you would have it participate in a battle once and then throw down the difference for Ivysaur, then have it participate again and throw down the difference for Venu. If it was just on your squad, you'd only get half an "evolution point" (or whatever, just making that up), so you'd need two per evo.
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Old 10-22-2017, 09:16 PM   #6
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Cute thanks!
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Old 10-22-2017, 09:21 PM   #7
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After some more discussion in the discord, a rough guide for how much AP each TL would have was produced:

TL1 = 20
TL2 = 40
TL3 = 65
TL4 = 100
TL5 = 140
TL6 = 190
TL7 = 245
TL8 = 305
TL9 = 375
TL10 = 450

Also, here's a cute graphic that shows roughly how many pokemon you would have on your squad if the average AP cost of your squad members was the number indicated at the top...



E.g. If you had a good mix of all levels (so the average AP cost was around 5), then at TL 2 you would have ~8 Pokemon, at TL 5 you would have ~28 Pokemon, and at TL 10 you would have ~90 Pokemon. Note that this is the BASE AP so if it seems a bit low, there will probably be alternative ways to gain more AP, aside from leveling up.
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Old 10-23-2017, 12:30 AM   #8
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I'm also going to throw out the idea that I had earlier for Eviolite-like held items that will grant specific boosts to NFEs that you would buy with AP to allow NFEs to compete a bit more readily with fully evolved mon. Ideally there'd be a variety of effects, such as lasting one-stage boosts or something along those lines, or effects like increased enthusiasm, Serene Grace boosts, and perhaps a range of effects depending on if they're a first or middle stage or if they're a non-evolver (below a certain level).

Suggestions welcome!
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Old 10-23-2017, 01:30 AM   #9
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I like it in theory but I think we might want to hold off on implementing those until we've seen how the new meta develops. We might find an influx of NFE usage anyway if people start spending their limited AP more carefully.
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Old 10-23-2017, 01:55 AM   #10
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I have to agree that items as a whole should be back burnered until we have at least some idea on how the meta shapes itself.

I've given a fair bit of my thoughts on things thus far but I do want to bring up that approving squad changes is a bit of a waste of time unless it proves to be necessary. It's just a bit of a pointless menial task and making people have to wait to change their squad has only ever been a point of discontent.
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Old 10-23-2017, 10:16 AM   #11
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Oh definitely, I just wanted to record it for further reference.
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Old 10-24-2017, 10:47 AM   #12
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For a reference on how the changes would affect larger squads, I tallied up the points my squad would cost, assuming the 20 SP paid on mega stones would make them a wash in terms of AP cost.

My squad costs 410 AP. I'd be TL8 (not far from TL9 under this system. that puts me 105 points over my limit.

If we factor in squad slots I've bought and translate that SP spent into AP, though, we're looking at about 30 more AP. That's still 75 over my limit, but by the time I hit TL9 (which, if I got the average KOs/month, would take me about 4 or 5 months), I'm just 5 behind my squad.

It takes about 5 years or so to get to TL9 under the current system. Given that's roughly comparable to the squad I have right now (which I think is one of if not the most ridiculous squad not belonging to Dave or Connor), I think the system works pretty well, at least at higher levels.

Plus, that's not factoring in the fact that there's definitely a fair bit of fat I could trim off my squad if I so chose without too significant a reduction in options.

Honestly if anything I'd say what we have right now is perhaps a smidge too generous, but it's not grossly so. I'd be fine with implementing this.
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Old 10-24-2017, 11:24 AM   #13
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I know we were talking about this on Discord last night or the night before, but I just want to post a quick case for TL1 having 20 AP instead of the 15 or 17 that were also being thrown around. Dave demonstrated that making a good squad with 17 AP is very doable, but 20 AP would allow TL1 trainers to easily budget a 5 AP Pokemon into their squad while still having enough AP to put together a well-rounded and versatile team. I know that there are hundreds of Pokemon to choose from at the 1-4 AP level, but I think easy yet limited access to the 5 AP tier from the beginning would be good for players just starting out.
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Old 10-24-2017, 12:41 PM   #14
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A 1-10 scale makes it easy to just translate TP into AP whilst keeping a similar progression. Advantage over tying it to TL is to smooth out the power curve a bit, and to make meaningful differences between (for example) someone just reaching TL5 and someone almost to TL6, plus his the rate at which people can incrementally improve their squads rather than having it spike at each TL.

I'd also consider tying the amount of matches you need to have a pokemon on your squad/be actively used before evolving to the AP difference between forms. I feel like it should take more effort to raise a Dratini to a Dragonite than it should to raise a Caterpie to a Butterfree. Maybe something to the effect of 1 battle per 2 AP difference to the next form? Low level trainers can still get the cool high level shit relatively early if they want to put in the effort, but it adds an extra level of encouragement to use some varied low level things above and beyond simple AP cost. If we go that route though stuff like Gyarados and Metang whose base forms are truly shit might warrant dropping a bit.
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Old 10-24-2017, 01:15 PM   #15
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I know we were talking about this on Discord last night or the night before, but I just want to post a quick case for TL1 having 20 AP instead of the 15 or 17 that were also being thrown around. Dave demonstrated that making a good squad with 17 AP is very doable, but 20 AP would allow TL1 trainers to easily budget a 5 AP Pokemon into their squad while still having enough AP to put together a well-rounded and versatile team. I know that there are hundreds of Pokemon to choose from at the 1-4 AP level, but I think easy yet limited access to the 5 AP tier from the beginning would be good for players just starting out.
20AP is closer to what newbs get currently, which is 15 level 1s and 2 uplevels totalling 19 'points', and has the benefit of being a nicer number than 19. I'm pretty sure the Getting Started thread wasn't updated with the free slots for gen 7.
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Spoiler: show
Squad summary here.
TL3, 129.5 TP, 37 KOs, 3 SP
C grade ref.

WF quest log here.

FB stuff here.
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Old 10-24-2017, 02:16 PM   #16
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Another thing worth thinking about; the "you have to use them before they can evolve" system also biases things in favour of picking up non-evolvers. The simplest way to counteract this would be to simply skew the costs so non-evolvers tend to cost slightly more than they otherwise would.
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Old 10-24-2017, 03:41 PM   #17
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I'd also consider tying the amount of matches you need to have a pokemon on your squad/be actively used before evolving to the AP difference between forms. I feel like it should take more effort to raise a Dratini to a Dragonite than it should to raise a Caterpie to a Butterfree. Maybe something to the effect of 1 battle per 2 AP difference to the next form? Low level trainers can still get the cool high level shit relatively early if they want to put in the effort, but it adds an extra level of encouragement to use some varied low level things above and beyond simple AP cost. If we go that route though stuff like Gyarados and Metang whose base forms are truly shit might warrant dropping a bit.
Level 1 Mon will still probably still be buyable as if they don't need to evolve like they were in the old system. As for variable battles needed to evolve, I'm a little iffy about that, because it means that it's going to potentially take quite a while to get some Pokémon up to snuff. The only way I see this working is if we require some Pokémon to evolve at minimum by only being in a squad once and at maximum by being in a battle twice, but that means that a Pokémon would have to be unevolved for up to 4 battles fighting or 8 battles in a squad to get to its final form. That feels a little long and also goes against our goal to make favorites accessible to all.

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Another thing worth thinking about; the "you have to use them before they can evolve" system also biases things in favour of picking up non-evolvers. The simplest way to counteract this would be to simply skew the costs so non-evolvers tend to cost slightly more than they otherwise would.
I think we're doing that a little already but unfortunately it's just kind of unavoidable issue.
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Old 10-24-2017, 08:07 PM   #18
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Gonna echo Jeri on both counts re; Concept. We erred on the higher side of things with most nonevolvers, and I think you underestimate just how prohibitive 8-10 can be at early levels. If I'm shelling out half my starting points to get a Gallade I think it's only fair to let me actually have that Gallade in my first couple matches. Adding a two month wait while you wait to finish 8 battles is more than a little excessive imo.
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Old 10-24-2017, 08:40 PM   #19
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Yeah it really defeats the purpose of letting people have their one favorite 'mon by blowing half their squad points on it if they'll be TL2 by the time they access it.
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Old 10-28-2017, 11:49 AM   #20
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Some small AP related stuff we've decided on:

1. AP will be an option for prizes in things like GMs and Contests.
2. GLs will get 15 AP when they get their first gym.
3. There's gonna be two kinds of GTs- Senior and Junior. More on that later, but Senior GTs will get 9 AP and Junior GTs will get 6 AP upon their first GTship. GL/GT stuff is cumulative, so if you're a Junior GT then a Senior GT then a GL you get 6, then 3, then 6 for a total of 15, not 6, 9, and 15 for a total of 30.
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Old 11-04-2017, 10:43 PM   #21
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Old 11-04-2017, 11:42 PM   #22
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Here's some legendary Pokemon stuff for you guys to gnash your teeth on.

Spoiler: show
TL8: Mew, Mewtwo, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Arceus
TL7: Deoxys, Ho-Oh, Lugia, Regigigas, Genesect, Hoopa, Xerneas, Yveltal, Magearna, Kyurem*, Solgaelo*, Lunala*, Necrozma*
TL6: Reshiram, Zekrom, Zygarde, Volcanion, Victini, Darkrai, Guzzlord, Latias, Latios, Jirachi, Uxie, Azelf, Mesprit, Meloetta, Kyurem*, Meloetta, Celesteela, Solageo*, Lunala*, Necrozma*
TL5: Heatran, Manaphy, Shaymin, Tornadus, Thundurus, Landorus, Tapu Koko, Tapu Bulu, Tapu Lele, Tapu Fini, Kartana, Xurkitree, Necrozma*
TL4: Nihilego, Articuno, Zapdos, Moltres, Suicune, Raikou, Entei, Celebi, Cresselia, Cobalion, Terrakion, Virizion, Keldeo, Diancie, Pheromosa, Buzzwole, Regice, Regirock, Registeel


Legend challenges function pretty much the same as they do now. TL8 stuff now costs 80 SP. Anything people have already challenged/are currently challenging they can keep, even if it moves up above their TL. We've also decided people will keep their legends and queued legends challenges through any reset. Legend Challenges in the queue when these changes go live will have to adapt to the new system, though- so if you have a TL7 legend challenge in their when the changes happen you'll need to upgrade to get a Mewtwo or whatever it is your heart desires.

You may notice that some 'mon have asterisks and are in multiple TLs. That's because we haven't quite decided how their forme changes are going to work yet. We've decided on Zygarde's formes and those will be detailed in the SC thread once we've put pen to paper and written/rewritten the necessary SCs.

TLs 4, 5, and 6 can be used in Gym Matches and whatnot. 7 and 8 are now restricted as 6 and 7 once were.
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