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Old 08-05-2016, 06:24 AM   #176
Connor
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Typeless damage from all attacks will only make this massively broken. It turns it from a niche defensive move into one which will absolutely be primed and abused for offensive play. This achieves the entire opposite of what you claim it will.

I cannot stress just how bad a change this would be for the meta.
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Old 08-05-2016, 09:02 AM   #177
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Synchronoise (PS) --The user releases an enhanced brain wave, targeting thought patterns of Pokémon. Due to the attack targeting how Pokémon think, it will deal high damage to all Pokémon, enemy, friend or otherwise, who share at least one type with the user. If the target does not share a type with the user, they will take light damage instead. Since this move targets the Pokémon's brainwaves directly, it is not resisted by Psychic Pokémon, nor are Dark Pokémon immune to its effects. This attack uses high energy.

Can we have some clarification on how this attack works? 'An enhanced brain wave' isn't very clear. Is it visible or not? Is it affected by solids and/or liquids or not? If not, does it negate screens too?
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Old 08-05-2016, 10:42 AM   #178
Altocharizard55
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@Connor see the edit I made this morning; I forgot to add it in.
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PASBL Stats

TL 4 (35-21-6)
Current owner of the Onslaught Badge and the Monolith Badge
Previous owner of the Indurate Badge and the Dual Wing Badge (Pre-scrap)
216 TP - 84 KOs - 20 SP (11 SP Debt to Machamp-X)
(W/L/D and stats recompiled as of 4/25/17)
Observe. Adapt. Evolve.
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Old 08-05-2016, 10:50 AM   #179
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That does nothing to stop them being used primarily as an offensive rather than defensive tool (I presume you mean the usage cap).
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Old 08-05-2016, 11:02 AM   #180
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That was sort of my intent, but I may have underestimated how strong it would be. I intended the move to make poor match ups a bit less poor, and affect neutral match ups less. Although on second thought, with the typeless clause, Sub could be changed to exclusively blocking Significant damage, to avoid the potential abuse, because an Extreme health Sub that takes typeless damage would be really stupid.

That in mind, I'm going to attempt to fix this idea before entirely nixing it.

Change 1: Substitute now soaks a Considerable/Significant amount of damage before breaking, instead of having variable charge.

Change 2: Substitute now takes typeless damage from all sources.

Change 3: Substitute is considered unsporting and will only work once / Substitute may only be used twice, and its second use is less efficient in some way.

----------------------------------------------------------

In the case that the above is decided to be too much nonsense, which I'm starting to question myself a little, I'd like to propose the much easier to handle, obvious alternative.

Change 1: Substitute now operates strictly by QC (Good) HC (Significant) and FC (Major/Extreme) versions instead of having entirely specifiable charge.

----------------------------------------------------------

Additionally, why did we change Sub to where the user attacks itself, rather than having attacks be used by the Sub? This seems silly.
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PASBL Stats

TL 4 (35-21-6)
Current owner of the Onslaught Badge and the Monolith Badge
Previous owner of the Indurate Badge and the Dual Wing Badge (Pre-scrap)
216 TP - 84 KOs - 20 SP (11 SP Debt to Machamp-X)
(W/L/D and stats recompiled as of 4/25/17)
Observe. Adapt. Evolve.

Last edited by Altocharizard55; 08-05-2016 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 08-06-2016, 12:33 PM   #181
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No. We have had a fight over Substitute basically every time this thread has been opened. The current version of Substitute is fine. We are not changing it again.
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Old 08-06-2016, 05:25 PM   #182
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Okay, so this is going to be a slightly long post with a number of suggestions, a few quite minor. I'm going to try to format it as cleanly as possible, and I apologize if it ends up looking a mess.

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Energy Drains

Spoiler: show
Absorb (GR) -- The user creates a number of short green energy tendrils and drains a decent amount of energy from the target in the space of a few seconds. If the user is close to the target, it restores its own energy reserves by the same amount, with the amount recovered lessening with distance. Though this move does not cost the user any energy, it counts as using up a decent amount of their Grass type pool if they are not a Grass type. It deals no damage but its effectiveness is based upon weakness and resistance. Due to its weak nature, this move does not count as a 'draining move' and does not contribute towards diminishing returns.

Giga Drain (GR) -- The user creates a number of short green energy tendrils and drains a heavy amount of energy from the target in the space of a few seconds. If the user is close to the target, it restores its own energy reserves by the same amount, with the amount recovered lessening with distance. Though this move does not cost the user any energy, it counts as using up a heavy amount of their Grass type pool if they are not a Grass type. It deals no damage but its effectiveness is based upon weakness and resistance. This move counts as a 'draining move' and contributes towards diminishing returns. When the user uses a draining move, the next draining move it uses will be 10% less effective for the same energy cost.

Grudge (GH) -- The user, summoning power akin to Destiny Bond, accepts defeat and gives up all of its Ghost energy, absorbing the final attack and fainting. Upon fainting, the energy is immediately transferred to the Pokémon who KO'ed it (If multiple Pokémon KO it at once, both Pokémon are affected half as much). If the move has any kind of energy attached to it, the target loses all the energy of that type if not Normal/XX/STAB and loses major overall energy, or loses extreme energy if Normal/XX/STAB. The user must have at least major Ghost (and overall) energy remaining to reap the full effects of this attack - any less will cause the energy drained to be equivalent, though they will still lose all the type energy.

Mega Drain (GR) -- The user creates a number of short green energy tendrils and drains a considerable amount of energy from the target in the space of a few seconds. If the user is close to the target, it restores its own energy reserves by the same amount, with the amount recovered lessening with distance. Though this move does not cost the user any energy, it counts as using up a considerable amount of their Grass type pool if they are not a Grass type. It deals no damage but its effectiveness is based upon weakness and resistance. This move counts as a 'draining move' and contributes towards diminishing returns. When the user uses a draining move, the next draining move it uses will be 10% less effective for the same energy cost.

Parabolic Charge (EL) - The user releases a burst of electrical energy, creating an electrical link between it and its foe that drains a heavy amount of energy in the space of a few seconds. If the user is close to the target, it restores its own energy reserves by the same amount, with the amount recovered lessening with distance. Though this move does not cost the user any energy, it counts as using up a considerable amount of their Electric type pool if they are not an Electric type. It deals no damage but its effectiveness is based upon weakness and resistance. The user may also use this to drain from two or more Pokémon at once, though energy draining will be divided equally between them, and they will also be able to choose who to drain from. This move counts as a 'draining move' and contributes towards diminishing returns. When the user uses a draining move, the next draining move it uses will be 10% less effective for the same energy cost.

Really simple QOL change here. Can we add in a line specifying how these energy drains interact with the target's/user's exhaustion? None of the energy drains besides Spite clarify this. And yeah, Grudge is a little weird, but I included it anyways for completeness.

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Blaze Kick

Spoiler: show
Blaze Kick (FI) -- The user's leg becomes covered in flames a la Fire Punch, and the user deals a powerful kick which does considerable damage.

So, it occurred to me that this attack is a perfect candidate for another dual-typed move akin to Muddy Water, Sludge Wave, etc. As it stands, this move is very bland. This could become a Fire/Fighting typed move, dealing SE damage to Grass, Ice, Steel, Dark, and Normal, while dealing NVE damage to Dragon, Water, Fire, Fairy, Flying, Poison, and Psychic. While not a necessary change by any means, I think Blaze Kick presents a really nice opportunity to add another niche move into the mix. Additionally, Blaze Kick should have a Burn chance akin to that of Fire Punch.

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Dragon Rush

Spoiler: show
Dragon Rush (DR) -- The user begins to glow with dragon energy and charges towards the opponent, striking them for quite significant damage and possibly making the opponent flinch.

Very minor, but I feel like this should be just a touch stronger, maybe to heavy. This is mostly to create just a little more variety in the power of physical Dragon-typed attacks, as it is quite a short list. (Also, it's more in line with the IG Base Power, which is a generally bad argument, but again, it's in comparison)

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Horn Drill

Spoiler: show
Horn Drill (XX) -- The user's horn spins round at high speed, like a drill. If the horn hits the target completely, it pierces the target, dealing heavy damage.

Mostly concerned about the potential Realistic abuse this could have, seeing as how we seem to have shifted pretty heavily away from that. Maybe replace the "piercing" line with a Crush-Claw effect, creating weak points on the opponent where the attack hits.

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Payback

Spoiler: show
Payback (DK) -- This move is only usable when the user is going second. The user waits for the opponent to finish all of its attacks for the round, and then surrounds themselves in a dark aura before slamming back into the target. For every attack that the user was struck with, the power of the dark aura increases, dealing good damage if it is hit with one move, dealing heavy damage if it is hit with a two move combo, and dealing massive damage if it is hit with a three move combo. Energy usage is proportional to the aura's power.

So, this move is essentially useless. You give up your entire turn to realistically deal heavy damage, maybe massive in doubles (nobody ever uses a three going first), while still taking full damage from the attacks you take. For what you're giving up, this is extremely underwhelming. I propose a really simple change to make this attack usable, as well as somewhat fill a void in the current move list. First, remove the line about waiting until the opponent has finished its attacks entirely, because unless this move had the sheer power/utility of something like Bide (which it really shouldn't), this line will render any rendition of the attack terrible. Second, change the damage spread from good/heavy/massive to solid/high/extreme (or alternatively significant/major if you want to simplify it to a two-attack variation). This yields a situational but consistent high powered Dark move unlike anything that currently exists, and still retains the spirit of the original move. Also, you may want to specify that only damaging attacks will proc the damage increase on this attack, but that isn't entirely necessary!

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Shadow Sneak

Spoiler: show
Shadow Sneak (GH) -- The user expends moderate energy to animate their shadow with spiritual energy, which immediately causes the shadow to stretch out at high speed towards the target, before smacking the opponent with the ghostly energy left over from animating the shadow, dealing moderate damage.

Another really simple QOL change here. Could we get a line or two making Shadow Sneak's interaction with screens more explicit?

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Tiny Nitpick

On the site, you guys have Dragon-typed attacks listed under both the (DR) and (DG) tag, which is really annoying when you're trying to search for moves based on type. I'm unsure if there are other inconsistencies like this one.
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PASBL Stats

TL 4 (35-21-6)
Current owner of the Onslaught Badge and the Monolith Badge
Previous owner of the Indurate Badge and the Dual Wing Badge (Pre-scrap)
216 TP - 84 KOs - 20 SP (11 SP Debt to Machamp-X)
(W/L/D and stats recompiled as of 4/25/17)
Observe. Adapt. Evolve.

Last edited by Altocharizard55; 08-07-2016 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 08-07-2016, 03:05 PM   #183
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Only double posting as to not potentially obscure this post from anyone who may have already read through the contents of my previous one. Apologies!

-----

Size-dependent moves

Spoiler: show
Aqua Tail (WA) -- The user wraps its tail in water energy, which it then uses to smash into the target. Damage dealt and accuracy is dependent on the user's tail but the average Pokémon will deal considerable damage. Aqua Tail uses considerable energy.

Body Slam (XX) -- The user runs towards the opponent and throws their full body weight at them, using significant energy to do so. "Paralysis" only occurs if the user weighs significantly more than the opponent, and they are pinned underneath, with a varying chance of escaping. Paralysis can also come from severe damage from the attack, referee's discretion. Damage dealt is usually significant for Pokémon of similar size and weight, and scales quickly upwards if the target is much smaller than the user, as well as scaling downwards similarly if the target is much larger than the user.

Dragon Tail (DR) -- The user charges Dragon energy into its large tail, sweeping the foe off its feet and potentially sending it flying. The amount of damage done is dependent of the size of the user's tail, though the average Pokémon will deal considerable damage.

Headbutt (XX) -- The user lowers its head and charges at the target, hitting it hard. Damage varies depending on the size of the Pokémon, but most will deal solid damage.

Iron Tail (ST) -- The user's tail becomes covered in a metallic silver-coloured hard shell, which it then uses to smash the opponent. Damage and accuracy can vary based on the user's tail, though on average it will deal considerable damage. The metallic casing of the tail allows it to break through some energy-based attacks with greater ease and still retain its power.

Low Kick (FT) -- The user delivers a kick to the opponent's legs or lower extremities in hopes of causing it to trip or lose its balance. Though the kick itself deals moderate damage, most of the damage is dealt in the fall, which can vary based on the target's size and weight.

Poison Tail (PO) -- The user's tail becomes covered in a venomous purple-coloured sheath, which it then uses to smash into the target. Damage and accuracy may vary based on the user's tail but the average Pokémon will deal good damage. Poison Tail uses good energy. It has a 10% chance to poison the target.

So, the problem that I have with all of these moves is that none have a floor or ceiling on the amount of damage they can do. Especially for Body Slam with its current prevalence, but certainly the other moves as well, we should probably write in explicit caps on the amount of damage these attacks can do; I'll leave the specifics to your discretion. Energy use potentially should increase/decrease with the damage dealt, although this isn't entirely necessary (one way or the other, this probably should also be clarified directly in the move description). There's already precedent for putting min/max caps on weight/size-based moves. Heat Crash and Heavy Slam (see below) are two such examples.

Spoiler: show
Heat Crash (FI) --The user surrounds itself with an intense ball of flame, leaping into the air and coming crashing down upon the foe. Generally, it will deal solid damage, but it can deal heavy damage if there is a great contrast or moderate damage if there is only a slight difference in weight. This move uses solid energy.

Heavy Slam (ST) --The user surrounds its body with Steel energy, ramming into the foe. The lighter the target is in comparison with the user, the more damage is done. Generally, it will deal solid damage, but it can deal major damage if there is a great contrast or moderate damage if there is only a slight difference in weight. This move uses solid energy.

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Assurance

Spoiler: show
Assurance (DK) -- The user surrounds itself with a dark aura of wicked thoughts and intentions of doing harm before hurtling toward the target, smacking into them for decent dark type damage. If the target is afflicted by a condition or an environment which is already doing them harm however, the dark aura will be stronger and the target will be more reckless in the attack dealing twice as much damage as normal.

I almost didn't want to include this on the list due to how minor an error is, but the bolded instance of "target" should be replaced with "user".

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Barrier

Spoiler: show
Barrier (PS) -- Using significant energy, the user creates a large, thin, translucent square wall of energy a short distance in front of it, relative to its size. It is large enough to protect them from attacks and will not exceed the height and width of the user. It is capable of withstanding a major amount of damage from all attacks. The wall will stay with the user until it is destroyed, but can be moved out of the user's way temporarily in order to attack. If the user is switched out before the shield vanishes, the replacement Pokémon will gain the benefits.

Is it intentional that Barrier does not have reflective properties akin to Light Screen and Reflect? If it is not, then this move should also have the same line about reflecting back light-based elements of attacks.

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Hypnosis

Spoiler: show
Hypnosis (PS) -- Using good energy, the user carefully focuses and releases slow-moving, hypnotic waves that can either put the opponent to sleep or implant false visions in their mind (Trainer's choice), which can be somewhat distracting to the foe. In order for the visions to work or the victim to fall asleep, eye contact is absolutely necessary. A lack of eye contact can result in the attack leaving the victim drowsy or confused.

Can we get a little bit of clarification on how potent of an effect these "false visions" are on the targeted Pokemon? I recall reading a match where Hypnosis was used to convince the target to walk into lava. (See this.) Regardless, I feel like the severity of said hallucinations could potentially use a little more clarity, but I may be splitting hairs. Would love to hear some more feedback on this.

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Recoil Moves (Needing Specification)

Spoiler: show
Cross Chop (FT) -- Like a 'Mega Punch' version of 'Karate Chop', the user's hand glows white as it delivers a hard chop down onto the opponent for heavy damage. While the attack isn't as accurate as Karate Chop, it deals much more damage. However, there is a chance for recoil if the user is not accustomed to using the side of their hands, or the target is unique (Onix, Jolteon, etc.).

High Jump Kick (FT) -- The user jumps very high into the air, then falls down towards them with a foot extended to deal a hard kick for high damage. If it misses, some damage is taken to the leg as it lands with its full weight on the one leg.

Take Down (XX) -- The user tackles the opponent hard and drives them to the ground, delivering heavy damage and taking some recoil damage. The user of the attack will usually knock the opponent down with this move, but only as long as the target is less than 3 times heavier than the user.

Wild Charge (EL) --The user surrounds itself with electricity, recklessly charging into the target and dealing significant damage. This deals some recoil to the user as well due to the haphazard nature of the attack.

All of the moves listed here can result in recoil damage, but the amount of said recoil is unspecified. Could we get some clarity on this?

-----

Recoil Moves (Inconsistent)

Spoiler: show
Brave Bird (FL) -- The user gains some height, charging intense energy, before diving to the ground to gain speed, leveling out just before making contact, and slamming into the foe for major damage, incurring minor damage dealt in recoil.

Double-Edge (XX) -- The user slams into the opponent hard, in a fashion to maximize the damage dealt, dealing major damage, but also in a rather painful way to use, taking minor recoil damage.

Flare Blitz (FI) -- The user covers its body in flames and charges into the opponent at a high speed, dealing major damage. Because of the intensity of the strike and the flames surrounding the user's body, the user will take mild recoil damage. It has a 10% chance to inflict a burn on the target.

Head Charge (NO) -- The user focuses energy into its large, hairy head, charging the foe. They ram into the foe, dealing a hit that does major damage and throwing back Pokémon who are lighter than the user. The user suffers some moderate recoil from the attack, though some of the force is absorbed by the user's protective layer of hair. If this move is used via Metronome, the user will suffer slightly higher recoil.

All of the attacks on this list deal Major damage, but have varying amounts of recoil. I propose that this be standardized to Light or Mild across the board.
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PASBL Stats

TL 4 (35-21-6)
Current owner of the Onslaught Badge and the Monolith Badge
Previous owner of the Indurate Badge and the Dual Wing Badge (Pre-scrap)
216 TP - 84 KOs - 20 SP (11 SP Debt to Machamp-X)
(W/L/D and stats recompiled as of 4/25/17)
Observe. Adapt. Evolve.

Last edited by Altocharizard55; 08-07-2016 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 08-08-2016, 05:29 AM   #184
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The recoil attacks are left open to referee discretion and absolutely should remain so. You should take more recoil from crashing into something like Metagross which has a significantly hard body than you should, say, a Vulpix. They should be standardised to have the same indicator but they should not be universally clarified as a static descriptor.

Barrier doesn't need the help. It soaks up attacks on both ends of the spectrum and is only Mild damage less than the respective panes. Something something it has a thicker nature and thus cannot reflect light (personally I don't think they should anyway).

Hypnosis is fine. The match you're indicating was really a bit of an extreme case on the side of the hallucination coming to fruition. The Pokemon which was stricken was in an incredibly undesirable arena, was to memory tired (okay was confused and then manipulated - by Ninetales, which gets a boost on both), and was suffering at the hands of a Ninetales, a Pokemon which is explicitly better at manipulation. It should be left to referee discretion, putting a hard limit or definition on it will only serve to completely truck the viability of manipulation Hypnosis and see it never used, or it'll go the other direction and become too good and be universally spammed every time to make shit walk off cliffs when they're fresh.

Not sure there is much else to say on the others beyond Blaze Kick inciting a 'no do not do this' knee jerk reaction because I hate dual typed moves even if they are canonically a thing.
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Old 08-08-2016, 06:03 AM   #185
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I actually don't mind the Blaze Kick idea.

Dual type moves are inherently a bad idea. But since they do now exist and will probably continue to we may as well embrace them for the reasons outlined.
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Old 08-08-2016, 06:39 AM   #186
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Another option- http://veekun.com/dex/moves/blaze%20kick

Blaze kick is learned by 3 lines, all of which are quite adept at jumping. Could we make it fire!jump kick?
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Old 08-08-2016, 06:44 AM   #187
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Do we really need to be spreading more versatile strike and dodge attacks? I would get behind a dual typed proposal before I did that.
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Old 08-08-2016, 08:27 AM   #188
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Old 08-08-2016, 08:46 AM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKnightsFury View Post
Another option- http://veekun.com/dex/moves/blaze%20kick

Blaze kick is learned by 3 lines, all of which are quite adept at jumping. Could we make it fire!jump kick?
That's not even true.
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Old 08-08-2016, 11:44 AM   #190
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Sunny Day (XX) -- The user sends a small beam of energy skyward, using moderate energy, causing all clouds to clear out and sunlight to shine brightly over the course of a round. The temperature of the arena will increase by a few degrees due to the sunlight, making it less likely for moves to succeed in freezing. Fire and (most) Dragon types will be more at home in these conditions, while Water and Ice types will feel quite uncomfortable. Fire moves will deal 10% more damage in these conditions, while Water and Ice moves will deal 10% less damage. Electric attacks become slightly less accurate, the electricity flying a bit wildly as it is diffracted in the heated air. Solarbeam's charge time is reduced to a mere 2-3 seconds and the effects of Moonlight, Morning Sun and Synthesis are doubled. Finally, any Grass Pokémon on the field gain some energy and health so long as the sun keeps shining. Unless extended or cancelled, the bright sun will last for 5 rounds, gradually fading out as it began. Subsequent uses of Sunny Day can be used to extend or restart the sunlight, but use of another weather move such as Rain Dance will cancel these effects over the course of a round. Weather moves will only be effective if used in arenas that are exposed to the outside and do not have an enclosed roof. If Sunny Day is used at night, it will cancel rain and hail as usual but will not cause the sun to shine, negating the boost to fire.
Quote:
[Grass]: Grass-type Pokémon live anywhere that can support vegetation and are adept at concealing themselves in such places. They enjoy both bright sun and rain and fight more enthusiastically in the day time, though they are not put off by fighting at night. Rainstorms will heal them slightly every round the rain falls, while very bright sunlight will regenerate their energy instead. Their healing moves cost slightly less energy and their draining moves will heal them by a greater amount while suffering only half of the usual diminishing returns. They are immune to spore based techniques like Sleep Powder and are more adept at using such attacks themselves, creating denser concentrations of spores which are harder to disperse and more potent in their effects. Any attack used by Grass-types manipulating the environment is slightly more potent, and their Grass-type attacks which utilise plant foliage (such as Razor Leaf) are more efficient in natural environments.
While I would love to keep that in the move descript because it benefits Venusaur, I can't not bring it up. Clarification is needed here. I'm more inclined to believe the Type Characteristic since they were redone recently.
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Old 08-08-2016, 12:26 PM   #191
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Agree with most of the things Connor said.

In regards to Blaze Kick, we could make it ranged a la Shadow Punch I suppose. Just spitballing really because it kinda sucks right now and the thought of more of both dual-type moves and dodge and strike moves makes me want to stab babies.
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Old 08-08-2016, 01:15 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Connor View Post
The recoil attacks are left open to referee discretion and absolutely should remain so. You should take more recoil from crashing into something like Metagross which has a significantly hard body than you should, say, a Vulpix. They should be standardised to have the same indicator but they should not be universally clarified as a static descriptor.
I'm totally fine with this, as long as it's standardized across recoil moves. The target body factor you described should also be added to the description of recoil moves, in that case. Additionally, under the system you described, recoil should probably have an explicit cap to it. I suggest this cap be no greater than half the power of the move used in any situation, although the jury's out on the specifics.
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PASBL Stats

TL 4 (35-21-6)
Current owner of the Onslaught Badge and the Monolith Badge
Previous owner of the Indurate Badge and the Dual Wing Badge (Pre-scrap)
216 TP - 84 KOs - 20 SP (11 SP Debt to Machamp-X)
(W/L/D and stats recompiled as of 4/25/17)
Observe. Adapt. Evolve.
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Old 03-15-2017, 08:12 PM   #193
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I'm not looking at this thread until April 1 at the absolute earliest but I can open it if you want.
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Old 03-15-2017, 08:20 PM   #194
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Pain Split (NO) -- The user creates a direct link between itself and the victim, attempting to balance the health between the two. Health is stolen in clumps from the victim, a mild amount being transferred every few seconds, and up to an extreme amount of health may be stolen at an equal energy cost to the user. The health stolen is used to replenish the user's own health levels. If the user and the victim's health become equal at any point during the drain, the link is automatically terminated. This move counts as a 'draining move' and contributes towards diminishing returns. When the user uses a draining move, the next draining move it uses will be 10% less effective for the same energy cost.


This move is far too powerful at the moment. Not resisted by anything and is pretty much better than every draining move and probably just about every healing move (since it can be used more than one). There is nothing in there stopping it from being used at a distance, ghosts can use it while invisible and there is nothing explicit in the move description to cause it to stop early (other than health leveling out). I think it needs to be weakened when used at a distance, the same way Giga Drain is. Also maybe state in there that the bond is fragile and direct damage will cause the link to break prematurely?

Edit:
You can essentially deal 1HB worth of damage, while healing 1 HB worth of damage, only for 1 HB of energy. Thats literally insane. Say I KO'd a pokemon and my Pokemon is just in the final third. My amount sends in a fresh and healthy Pokemon. I could then deal 1HB worth of damage to it and heal myself, all with one move and its a draining move so I can use it more than once.
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Old 03-16-2017, 02:34 AM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKnightsFury View Post
Also maybe state in there that the bond is fragile and direct damage will cause the link to break prematurely?
This is how you should already be reffing it. This is how people have been reffing it, or at least how they were back whenever. Because that's how moves work.

Having it count as the one recovery move does make sense, though.
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Old 03-16-2017, 08:45 AM   #196
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idk, I feel having it count towards the recovery move limit (or changing it at all honestly) is a bad idea, especially when we count it as a draining move. Pain Split is a really, really nice tool for somebody who wants to flip the bird to the HO meta and play differently. It's probably one of the best tools this side of toxic spikes we have for such a person. We already don't give them a lot, so I don't see a reason to nerf a perfectly balanced move that helps provide at least some sort of counterweight for the basic meta we have. It's a really good punishing move- frankly, if you can manage to get a full split off with a ref who knows what they're doing, the person ordered so poorly they absolutely deserve that level of punishment for it. If some dumbass tries to switch their Camerupt out of your Swampert and forgets to put in moves in case they're forced to stay in, you should be Blocking and nuking them to shit. The fact that Block can result in something getting nuked to shit doesn't make it broken; it makes a move which punishes you for messing up, and I find those to be quite healthy to have around.

Honestly, the only thing I'd be in favor of changing re; pain split is making it clear that full hit from say, a considerable level attack (could be solid, could be significant, but I think considerable is a happy medium) will break it. If we change it and don't make the changes exacting, we'll have refs running around cutting off your pain split because of a Will-O-Wisp or dumb shit like that.

Here's some of my own proposals:
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Acid (PO) -- The user spits an extremely acidic substance at the target, dealing good damage on contact. It burns flesh over time and can melt weak objects such as dry wall. This burning sensation can cause irritation similar to a heat burn if left exposed over a period of time, but cannot do lasting damage or cause blindness. There is a low chance of poison associated with this move, as the acid is more for its ability to melt targets and other substances.

Acid Spray (PO) -- The user spits an orb made of an extremely acidic substance at the target, dealing moderate damage on contact. While dealing less damage than its counterpart, Acid, its effects are much more potent, dealing burns faster and able to melt substances much more quickly. This burning sensation can cause irritation similar to a heat burn if left exposed over a period of time, but cannot do lasting damage or cause blindness. It also has a low chance of poison, but is most for its ability to melt targets and other substances.

Considering the flavor of these moves, wouldn't it make sense for these to damage Steel types? Especially since we now have precedent in Salazzle for Steels getting damaged by particularly corrosive Poison moves, along with god knows how many sigs to that effect. Hell, I'm sure an argument could even be made for making Spray SE on Steels because of the stronger acid involved. Not necessarily advocating for that last bit though- just throwing it out there xp
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Mean Look (NO) -- Using good energy, the user glares at the opponent, covering it in a blue glow for a moment which quickly fades, placing a Curse on the opponent. This move makes the victim unable to be recalled until it has fainted, including with the use of switching moves like Baton Pass. It also can intimidate the opponent in a fashion similar to Leer. Mean Look lasts 5 rounds and each subsequent use will last 2 fewer rounds and fail after 3 uses. When the user switches out via convention switching or methods other Baton Pass, the curse will automatically fade.

This currently lets people potentially stop switches with it. This should not be currently letting people stop switches unless we want to make Block entirely useless. Also "methods other Baton Pass" could probably use a "than" in there somewhere ;p
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Mega Drain (GR) -- The user creates a number of short green energy tendrils and drains a considerable amount of energy from the target in the space of a few seconds. If the user is close to the target, it restores its own energy reserves by the same amount, with the amount recovered lessening with distance. Though this move does not cost the user any energy, it counts as using up a considerable amount of their Grass type pool if they are not a Grass type. It deals no damage but its effectiveness is based upon weakness and resistance. This move counts as a 'draining move' and contributes towards diminishing returns. When the user uses a draining move, the next draining move it uses will be 10% less effective for the same energy cost.

So there's nothing wrong with this move per se, but it's extremely useless. I think it might be worth considering to make it not subject to diminishing returns and knock the drain down a couple notches to Good or Decent. We could also change Absorb so that its drains reinvigorate the user more than the other drains, making it no longer useless as well. Thoughts?
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Foresight (NO) -- The user shoots out a red beam from its eyes, using good energy to fill the arena with the light, which fades immediately. Double Team, Invisibility, etc. will prove to be worthless, and the user of Substitute will be shown, among other effects. Ghosts will be physical for the duration of Foresight. The effects of Foresight last for 7-10 rounds, regardless of whether the user is switched or KO'd.

If we take a move that forces mon to show themselves and let them hide within a haze while it's active, that ruins the point of the move. Can we codify that it does see through smoke, hazes, artificial darkness, etc so we don't have to have another argument about it again?
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Endure (NO) -- The user grits its teeth (so to speak), and bears down for the remainder of the round, simply trying to lessen damage against it, or possibly stay conscious for the duration. Energy usage for the move starts out at relatively little, but increases depending on the damage it would have taken. Multiple uses lowers the success rate, by much more if the previous Endure(s) lasted through significant damage. Any attack that is used in conjunction with Endure has a much lower chance of working, with modifiers dependent on the energy usage consumed during Endure.

So, I proposed a revision of the move a really long time ago, as far back as the Mew thread, and it never really got looked at to my knowledge. Endure's useless, and while I understand that some moves are just going to suck in ASB and that's the way it is, it really doesn't have to be that way in some of these cases, like Endure's. My proposal was that Endure halves the damage the user takes in the round. Energy use is equivalent to the damage Endure stopped, with repeated use raising the energy and lowering the level of protection significantly. Energy use shoots up a la Disable if another move is used in conjunction with it.
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Last edited by Snorby; 03-16-2017 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 03-16-2017, 10:57 AM   #197
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Nerf Foresight to only dispel effects already in play and remove its ability to stay over multiple rounds
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Old 03-16-2017, 11:21 AM   #198
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I mean, Pain Split is generally using massive amounts of energy so I thought it was generally assumed it required a lot of concentration and could be cancelled from a good hit. I agree that should be added to description though.
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Old 03-16-2017, 11:31 AM   #199
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Yeah honestly if you aren't reffing it being knocked out after getting hit you're not reffing well. The only valid complaint there honestly is that Ghosts can use it while invisible (not that invisible necessarily makes it broken, but there are situations where it does make Pain Split extremely good). I don't agree with it counting as a healing move either: any Pokemon with Pain Split and another healing move will find that Pain Split is massively devalued because Pain Split is mostly unreliable, and I've literally never seen a match where Pain Split was used twice by the same Pokemon.
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Old 03-16-2017, 11:37 AM   #200
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Nerf Foresight to only dispel effects already in play and remove its ability to stay over multiple rounds
Why would we ever want to take away physically oriented mons only reliable answer to ethereal ghosts?
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