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Old 06-13-2016, 06:19 PM   #101
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It does raise a point of problem with Protect moves, though, which only recently got into a balanced state. We do want all of them to keep their niches.

Aura is bad and should feel bad. As proven by sigs that specifically target aura moves.
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Old 06-13-2016, 06:29 PM   #102
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Make sub like Smash 4's Greninja sub. Doll shield, poof, repostion.
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Old 06-13-2016, 06:30 PM   #103
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Easy solution: As the user is about to get stricken by an attack, it fashions a double using a set X amount of health and a set Y amount of energy (However you want to balance consumption of resources. Maybe pure health, maybe pure energy, maybe both. I advocate for both Health and Energy cost, as you block quite a bit with this move.) Then, have the double operate as normal; Damage to the sub is considered typeless, once it takes X amount of damage it breaks, unaffected by status effects, user un-targetable, diminishing returns on subsequent uses of substitute.
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Previous owner of the Indurate Badge and the Dual Wing Badge (Pre-scrap)
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Old 06-13-2016, 06:31 PM   #104
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Typeless damage poses a problem. One could easily hide behind a sub and possibly sponge two attacks that should have been potentially SE
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Old 06-13-2016, 06:33 PM   #105
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That is entirely the point. Also why it costs both energy and health. To add on, diminishing returns should be relatively harsh.
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TL 4 (35-21-6)
Current owner of the Onslaught Badge and the Monolith Badge
Previous owner of the Indurate Badge and the Dual Wing Badge (Pre-scrap)
216 TP - 84 KOs - 20 SP (11 SP Debt to Machamp-X)
(W/L/D and stats recompiled as of 4/25/17)
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Old 06-13-2016, 06:49 PM   #106
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That would weasel out a matchup, while a trainer hides behind a sub that could potentially cost less energy than protect while blocking two attacks.
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Old 06-13-2016, 06:57 PM   #107
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Er, no. The point is to balance X and Y w.r.t. diminishing returns to make Sub not spammable. So not really; it's reasonable counterplay in a matchup that you are already losing. Yes, it diminishes the gap a little, but not nearly as much as you seem to think.
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TL 4 (35-21-6)
Current owner of the Onslaught Badge and the Monolith Badge
Previous owner of the Indurate Badge and the Dual Wing Badge (Pre-scrap)
216 TP - 84 KOs - 20 SP (11 SP Debt to Machamp-X)
(W/L/D and stats recompiled as of 4/25/17)
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Old 06-13-2016, 07:23 PM   #108
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Effectively turning a super effective attack into a neutral attack is basically the opposite of broken. If anything, we should probably encourage things like this.
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Old 06-13-2016, 07:28 PM   #109
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Subs ingame take SE damage, you guys are shoehorning this move a bit to far from its original intent.

If I used mud bomb followed by mud shot against a lanturn from a swampert to be energy conservative, that lanturn should not be rewarded by setting up a solid sub that can soak both attacks while leaving itself the chance to attack. Will this version of sub have a set health amount?
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Old 06-13-2016, 07:33 PM   #110
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We deviate from in-game mechanics all the time if it makes a more balanced game/the anime does something dumb.
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Old 06-13-2016, 07:37 PM   #111
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Yes, which is why we have safeguard being an energy efficient Protect. It will have its uses, and the problem that I'm seeing from a balance point of view is that it will become too splashable even with one use that can potentially soak two attacks. If sub was a niche moves that only a few pokemon had I would be on board, but everything gets sub.
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Old 06-13-2016, 07:41 PM   #112
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SE is already ridiculously strong, and does not have nearly enough universal counterplay. This would not only carve a very good niche for Sub, but would also make ASB a bit healthier. It is a good defensive option to block SE attacks, but is less versatile in a sense than say, Light Screen, as you have to sacrifice health as well (the way I'm imagining it).
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TL 4 (35-21-6)
Current owner of the Onslaught Badge and the Monolith Badge
Previous owner of the Indurate Badge and the Dual Wing Badge (Pre-scrap)
216 TP - 84 KOs - 20 SP (11 SP Debt to Machamp-X)
(W/L/D and stats recompiled as of 4/25/17)
Observe. Adapt. Evolve.
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Old 06-13-2016, 07:42 PM   #113
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To be clear, I'm not sold, but I like the idea. I'd like to have a few more folks weigh in and see if there are other ideas.
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Old 06-13-2016, 07:45 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altocharizard55 View Post
SE is already ridiculously strong, and does not have nearly enough universal counterplay. This would not only carve a very good niche for Sub, but would also make ASB a bit healthier. It is a good defensive option to block SE attacks, but is less versatile in a sense than say, Light Screen, as you have to sacrifice health as well (the way I'm imagining it).
That would only hold true if most of the time you did not have at least something to fight back with. A Snorlax hiding behind a sub that takes neutral damage would be very unhealthy as it can almost guarantee a SE attack in return.

If it hides behind a sub, can it be limited to the use of only STAB? That way it cannot spam back SE at a no risk set up.
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Old 06-13-2016, 07:49 PM   #115
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STAB and Normal/XX, I think you mean.

Giving it the Double Team treatment would not be terrible, if it's deemed to need a drawback. I'm not sure how necessary I feel it is, though.
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TL 4 (35-21-6)
Current owner of the Onslaught Badge and the Monolith Badge
Previous owner of the Indurate Badge and the Dual Wing Badge (Pre-scrap)
216 TP - 84 KOs - 20 SP (11 SP Debt to Machamp-X)
(W/L/D and stats recompiled as of 4/25/17)
Observe. Adapt. Evolve.
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Old 06-13-2016, 08:01 PM   #116
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>people complain about the doll idea taking neutral damage and not SE
>people okay with what is basically a shield costing health

...how is it people don't see these are literally the same thing functionally? The doll idea or whatever just means it can take a set amount and potentially sponge more, which just is better for defensive balance, so I'm all for it. That said the literal same thing can be done with a shield or aura (eww, auras) without bringing into complication the stupid idea of "BUT HOW DOES IT NOT JUST ATTACK THE REAL ONE" or "BUT AOE DAMAGE". THAT SAID, we already have enough fukken shields so seriously just make it the goddamn doll and write it in a way that isn't stupid. Make it cost like, solid health for a solid damage soak. That way it'll soak up more than one hit if people are using good or less.
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Old 06-13-2016, 09:28 PM   #117
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I never thought I'd say this, but I agree with Sneaze.
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Old 06-14-2016, 12:31 AM   #118
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I second the idea of it nullifying SE on moves that hit the Sub
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Old 06-14-2016, 02:27 AM   #119
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Personally, I think that Sub itself is a ridiculous move and should probably be struck from the ASB movelist, but Sneaze's is the best idea here so far.
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Old 06-14-2016, 02:46 AM   #120
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Quote:
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Personally, I think that Sub itself is a ridiculous move and should probably be struck from the ASB movelist, but Sneaze's is the best idea here so far.
Actually, it was my idea.

Also, why do you think it should be struck rather than fixed? What good would that do? Please explain why you think so. What are your problems with the move?
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PASBL Stats

TL 4 (35-21-6)
Current owner of the Onslaught Badge and the Monolith Badge
Previous owner of the Indurate Badge and the Dual Wing Badge (Pre-scrap)
216 TP - 84 KOs - 20 SP (11 SP Debt to Machamp-X)
(W/L/D and stats recompiled as of 4/25/17)
Observe. Adapt. Evolve.
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Old 06-14-2016, 02:51 AM   #121
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Yeah making things hit neutral also benefits resisted attacks. If we set it at solid Heath and solid energy but make it really in effective cost wise after one use it would be alright. Considering we have been trying to improve stall and balanced play styles. In terms of whether the sub should be a doll or whatever I think that would be fine. The other option is you make it like a casing or something, still make it stop status and stuff though, that's the best thing about sub
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Old 06-14-2016, 02:54 AM   #122
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Honestly, I think it should be bumped up to Significant. Solid is a touch too weak IMO. Mostly because a lot of things get access to SC boosted Good attacks, which are already pretty abusable. Significant makes it more durable and expands its niche, but also a bit more thought requiring, due to what you're sacrificing.
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PASBL Stats

TL 4 (35-21-6)
Current owner of the Onslaught Badge and the Monolith Badge
Previous owner of the Indurate Badge and the Dual Wing Badge (Pre-scrap)
216 TP - 84 KOs - 20 SP (11 SP Debt to Machamp-X)
(W/L/D and stats recompiled as of 4/25/17)
Observe. Adapt. Evolve.

Last edited by Altocharizard55; 06-14-2016 at 03:00 AM.
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Old 06-14-2016, 05:15 AM   #123
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Honestly, I think it should be bumped up to Significant. Solid is a touch too weak IMO. Mostly because a lot of things get access to SC boosted Good attacks, which are already pretty abusable. Significant makes it more durable and expands its niche, but also a bit more thought requiring, due to what you're sacrificing.
At significant, several pokemon miss that damage marker for ranged moves. Solid is a good compromise.
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Old 06-14-2016, 05:22 AM   #124
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At significant, several pokemon miss that damage marker for ranged moves. Solid is a good compromise.
Not really, when it comes done to it, in important matches your almost always going to have mc hyperbeam.
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Old 06-14-2016, 05:25 AM   #125
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Not really, when it comes done to it, in important matches your almost always going to have mc hyperbeam.
What do you do with matches below fully evolved pokemon which compromise most of the league?
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