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Old 06-11-2016, 10:19 PM   #76
TheKnightsFury
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Is mean look classed as a curse? We could make it curable like curses? Although a 3-5 round expiry would be handy.
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Old 06-11-2016, 10:38 PM   #77
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So do we make it reusable then? If it wears off is the opponent able to just mean look again?
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Old 06-11-2016, 10:42 PM   #78
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Well yes of course they would be able to reapply but that is the precious use of a move and it gives the opponent a chance to escape or avoid
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Old 06-12-2016, 02:42 AM   #79
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Or just diminishing returns. Mean Look is basically an intimidation thing iirc, so repeated uses should really be less effective.
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Old 06-12-2016, 02:47 AM   #80
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How do you expect to apply diminishing returns to it? Normally diminishing returns makes something less potent with successive use and mean look only has a set effect. I guess you could introduce a chance to fail but that is getting a bit much.
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Old 06-12-2016, 03:02 AM   #81
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Mean Look (NO) --Using good energy, the user glares at the opponent, covering it in a blue glow for a moment which quickly fades. This move makes the victim unable to be recalled until it has fainted, including with the use of switching moves like Baton Pass. It also can intimidate the opponent in a fashion similar to Leer.
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Old 06-12-2016, 03:07 AM   #82
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Yes but when is it ever used for that purpose? Lets concentrate on the real problem with it which is indefinite trapping, what is a reasonable amount of time for it to last? Should it be influenced by general fear related moves like roar where it will be more or less effective depending on whether the opponent has a reason to be intimidated?
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Old 06-12-2016, 03:45 AM   #83
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No. Just add a clause which states it fades immediately if the user switches conventionally, and state that it originally blocks for 5 turns - consequent uses will reduce the number of turns it blocks for. I want to say 5 -> 3 -> 1 -> fails, since average match ups are roughly 8 turns that means if the Mean Looker players well they can keep their foe trapped long enough to end them, but also mean the trapped Pokemon can outlast it if they play well enough.

You get noted diminishing returns, you fix the indefinite trapping issue, and you tidy up the description to fix the functionality. I am a genius.
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Old 06-12-2016, 04:21 PM   #84
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The current full description or rule (if applicable), highlighting any problem areas

Quote:
Infestation (BG) - Using significant energy, the user sends forth a wave of small, bug-like creatures to attack the foe. The creatures swarm the target, dealing mild damage, but will linger on the foe for five rounds, dealing minor damage every round and causing discomfort that will annoy and distract the foe. The foe will become used to the annoyance over the course of the move, and the distraction effect will suffer from severe diminishing returns for repeated uses on the same target.
The issues with the move (in bullet points or short paragraphs)

In the games, Infestation prevents switching, but this is not the case in ASB.

The proposed changes (please do not rewrite the moves yourself)

Perhaps Infestation could block switching moves like Baton Pass and U-Turn? The bugs could feast on switching energy or something.

This isn't a very important or interesting suggestion I just figured that Infestation could stand to be a little closer to its intended function. It is a weird move and just giving it more utility might make it feel a little comfier to use.
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Old 06-12-2016, 04:22 PM   #85
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Many of our moves dont block switching, if this move gets an update, it would be worth entertaining Fire Spin et all
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Old 06-12-2016, 07:38 PM   #86
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Roost (XX) -- The user settles on a perch or the ground to relax its wings, focusing and restoring major energy and refresh themselves somewhat. Flying-type Pokémon may opt to forgo the energy and instead burn major energy to restore major health. This version is less restful, though will not contribute directly to exhaustion. This version counts as a healing move.

There, more sensible.

Growth (NO) -- Using decent energy, the user draws energy from light in the arena or other ambient energy, boosting their special attack and attack by one stage, as well as making their moves charge slightly faster. In strong sunlight or similar circumstances, attack and special attack are boosted by two stages.

The overlap between Work Up and Growth is literally only Eevelutions. I'm not really concerned about devaluing Work Up.

Bulldoze (GD) -- The user stomps on the ground repeatedly, sending out multiple small shockwaves of Ground energy, dealing good damage overall. Unlike Earthquake, this attack shakes the ground violently, causing unstable structures to collapse and possibly starting rock slides, avalanches or other natural consequences. Bulldoze may be able to destroy Stealth Rock and other entry hazards. It is also likely to cause the foe to trip, possibly interrupting an attack and dealing slightly more damage from the fall, though repeated uses will be less effective at tripping. The sustained nature of this attack makes it very difficult to use directly on the target and it can generally only be used on terrain.

Already specified that it destroys Stealth Rock but I thought I'd make it clearer since the current description is decidedly noncommittal. I'll kill the direct target thing from the sig rules

ugh we literally just had a convo about Sub do I have to do this again

Bestow (NO) -- The user uses moderate energy to give an attached item to another Pokémon. The user ceases to benefit from the effects of its item for five rounds. During this time, the target Pokémon gains the effects. The user can also hand over items such as Tropius's fruit for no energy cost. Mega Stones are not affected by this move. At the cost of significant energy, the Pokémon may also gift energy to an ally, restoring significant energy to them and giving them slight relief from exhaustion.

Good idea!

Muddy Water (GD/WT) -- The user shoots out a very powerful, but dirty, stream of water, which does considerable damage and might lower the opponent(s) accuracy if it hits in their eyes. Since it is both Ground and Water, its type-effectiveness is slightly different, dealing super effective hits to Poison, Steel, Ground, Electric, Rock and Fire types, while being resisted by Water, Dragon, Grass and Bug types. The damage from Muddy Water will never be doubly effective or doubly ineffective against a single-typed Pokémon. This move uses considerable Ground and Water type energy and considerable overall energy.

Sludge Wave (PO/WA) --The user issues a huge watery wave of toxic sludge, washing over the foe for significant damage. The large size of the wave allows it to hit multiple targets at once. This attack has a 10% chance of poisoning. Since it uses half Poison and half Water energy, its type-effectiveness is slightly different, dealing super effective hits to Fire and Fairy, while being resisted by Dragon, Ghost, Poison and Water. Steel types are considered resistant in the same way they resist moves such as Sludge Bomb. The damage from Sludge Wave will never be doubly effective or doubly ineffective against a single-typed Pokémon.This move uses significant Poison and Water type energy and significant overall energy.

Flying Press (FT/FL) - The user leaps into the air, coming down on top of the target with its full weight, dealing considerable damage. Since this move is half Flying and half Fighting, its type-effectiveness is slightly different, dealing super effective damage to Normal, Fighting, Ice, Dark and Grass Pokeémon and resisted damage to Electric, Flying, Poison, Psychic and Fairy Pokeémon. The damage from Flying Press will never be doubly effective or doubly ineffective against a single-typed Pokémon. This move uses considerable Flying and Fighting type energy and considerable overall energy.

Dragon Rage (Various) -- The user summons a powerful attack which is dependent on the arena. If there is water present between the two Pokeémon, the user summons a spiral of energy, which is quickly sent at the opponent, sucking up the water in the arena to deal significant Water-typed damage for significant energy. If there isn't water, it's a large fireball which deals heavy damage in a mix of dragon and fire energy, dealing Super Effective damage on Bug, Grass and Ice-types and Not Very Effective damage on Fire and Fairy types. This move uses considerable Dragon and Fire type energy and considerable overall energy. The fireball may be used in an aqueous environment, but the water version is arena-dependent.

Better wording.

Wind Attacks - Attacks involving wind and air interact with Screens and other similar defensive techniques depending on a variety of factors. Moves that are primarily air-based (generally, Flying-typed wind attacks, such as Razor Wind, Air Cutter or Gust) tend to be fairly "solid", meaning that they will be resisted by Reflect but will break through Light Screen, while energy-based wind attacks (such as Silver Wind, Fairy Wind, Ominous Wind, etc.) will be easily blocked by Light Screen but will break through a Reflect. Air-based attacks will also be more effective in dispelling fogs and mists, and while energy-based wind attacks can clear the air temporarily, they may not clear fogs or mists that have been recently set. Ice-based winds fall somewhere between these two categories, being partially absorbed by either screen while still weakening them significantly, due to their blend of forceful wind, energy, and in the case of Blizzard, actual ice. Despite this variability, all wind attacks are boosted by moves that boost Special Attack.

This is a good point.

Mean Look (NO) --Using good energy, the user glares at the opponent, covering it in a blue glow for a moment which quickly fades. This move makes the victim unable to be recalled until it has fainted, including with the use of switching moves like Baton Pass. It also can intimidate the opponent in a fashion similar to Leer. Mean Look lasts 5 rounds and each subsequent use will last 2 fewer rounds and fail after 3 uses. When the user switches out via conventional switching (i.e. not Baton Pass, U-Turn, etc.), the curse will automatically fade.

I'm not totally sure how I feel about making other moves trap but I think it might be worth exploring. Can someone come up with a list for me? I think I might extend discussion on that point and potentially AoE moves since these are a large set of rewrites.
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Old 06-12-2016, 07:44 PM   #87
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Trapping moves include:
Mean Look
Block
Infestation
Fire Spin
Whirlpool
Sand Tomb
Spider Web
Magma Storm

Personally I think having whirlpool and its ilk stop conventional switching for the duratio, Block stop all switching for the round, and Mean Look work 5-3-1 like Connor said. Spider Web is fine
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Old 06-12-2016, 07:53 PM   #88
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Partially Trapping moves is the way bulbapedia describes them

Bind (XX) -- The user wraps itself or an appendage, i.e. tail, around the target, and squeezes tightly. Probability of the opponent escaping depends on the conditions of the match. For example, a Pikachu which is tired stands no chance of getting out of a fresh Onix's bind, even after a few rounds. The opponent's and user's move selections during this time are hampered at the ref's discretion. The squeezing will usually do around decent damage over the course of a round, but may vary depending on how much the target struggles or size difference between the user and the target. Energy use scales similarly, with even a docile and small target taking a mild amount of energy to squeeze for a round, and stronger targets that struggle a lot taking potentially an extreme amount of energy to successfully hold for a full round.

Clamp (WA) -- The user grabs the target with its jaws or shell, squeezing tightly. Rules applying to how long this attack lasts are the same as "Bind" with damage and energy over the course of a round being solid on average and scaling similarly.

Fire Spin (FI) -- Using good energy, the user fires a stream of spiraling flame towards the opponent that develops into a large 20-foot high cyclone of flame, which will linger on average for about half a round, though it may be dispelled earlier. Pokeémon trapped inside the tornado will sustain light fire damage, but trying to escape from it will deal good fire damage.

Infestation (BG) - Using significant energy, the user sends forth a wave of small, bug-like creatures to attack the foe. The creatures swarm the target, dealing mild damage, but will linger on the foe for five rounds, dealing minor damage every round and causing discomfort that will annoy and distract the foe. The foe will become used to the annoyance over the course of the move, and the distraction effect will suffer from severe diminishing returns for repeated uses on the same target.

Magma Storm (FI) -- The user fires a spray of lava that covers the opponent and surrounds them, keeping them confined to the area within the ring of lava and dealing extreme damage.

Sand Tomb (GD) -- The user churns up a great deal of sand, either issuing it from its body or using the dirt or ground in the arena. This sand or dirt is sent at the foe, enveloping it in a low swirl of grating sand. The sand deals light damage without direct contact, though if the Pokémon attempts to pass through the vortex, it will suffer good damage. It also reduces line of sight somewhat for the Pokémon in it. If the arena is sandy, the vortex will be more of a whirlpool of sand, causing the foe to sink into it, making it harder to break from. The sand vortex also prevents the foe from being returned. Sand Tomb generally will last about a round after its use. Sand Tomb uses considerable energy.

Whirlpool (WA) -- The user swims in rapid circles underwater, creating a set of strong spiraling downward currents that can easily trap most Pokeémon. Only minor direct damage is caused each round trapped, but the risk of choking on water will cause distress. The user may also use a land-based version of the attack, creating a Whirlpool out of water energy above their heads, which they use to trap their foe for a brief time, similar to Fire Spin. If the user is in water, this attack uses decent energy. If not, it uses heavy energy.

Wrap (XX) -- The user wraps an appendage around the target, usually a tail or vine, and squeezes hard, not letting go. Rules for this attack are the same as Bind with damage and energy usage being mild on average.

--

Trap Moves

Block (NO) -- The user uses good energy to perform an anticipatory action, moving with abnormal speed to cut off or interrupt the movement of its target. If the target is attempting to switch, the user will position itself to intercept the recall beam or interrupt the switching move. Becuase of the nature of Baton Pass, it cannot be interrupted this way.

Mean Look (NO) --Using good energy, the user glares at the opponent, covering it in a blue glow for a moment which quickly fades. This move makes the victim unable to be recalled until it has fainted, including with the use of switching moves like Baton Pass. It also can intimidate the opponent in a fashion similar to Leer.

Spider Web (BG) -- The user shoots out a web which covers the target, greatly hindering its movement. Unlike other string-based moves, the complex web of sticky string entangles the foe more easily. The string is also composed out of tough spider silk, making it more resistant to cutting and Fire moves than standard String Shot or Electroweb. Due to the thick and entangling nature of the web, it has an effect on the recall beams of Pokéballs, preventing switching as long as the foe is entangled in the web, including through moves like Baton Pass. After three rounds, the tensile strength will begin to weaken, making it easier to destroy. It is also vulnerable to repeated energy assaults. Because of the resistant properties of the web, this technique uses good energy.
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Old 06-12-2016, 07:57 PM   #89
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Umm so just on the wording of new mean look, it says now that the curse wont fade if you switch with u turn or volt switch when it used to be just baton pass. Is this a thing now or just a mistake?
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Old 06-12-2016, 07:59 PM   #90
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Umm so just on the wording of new mean look, it says now that the curse wont fade if you switch with u turn or volt switch when it used to be just baton pass. Is this a thing now or just a mistake?
It will fade automatically if they switch conventionally.
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Old 06-12-2016, 08:01 PM   #91
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Mean Look (NO) --Using good energy, the user glares at the opponent, covering it in a blue glow for a moment which quickly fades. This move makes the victim unable to be recalled until it has fainted, including with the use of switching moves like Baton Pass. It also can intimidate the opponent in a fashion similar to Leer. Mean Look lasts 5 rounds and each subsequent use will last 2 fewer rounds and fail after 3 uses. When the user switches out via conventional switching (i.e. not Baton Pass, U-Turn, etc.), the curse will automatically fade.

What im saying is it only used to be baton pass, are you opening it u to u-turn and other non baton pass switching moves?
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Old 06-12-2016, 08:02 PM   #92
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>Sub
The Sub attacks, not the real pokemon. I presented a scenario over at inquiries. I had a Aggron use a sub, but it would make little sense for the real pokemon to be doing the pinning and then have the pokemon convinced that the sub fake somehow is magically not the one causing the weight on top of a pokemon.

The anime makes the sub attack - 10:58
BORKED

>Mean Look
Is it a curse? Can you please state one way or the other so the debate ends on that front? I have seen it reffed as a curse and not as a curse
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Old 06-12-2016, 08:11 PM   #93
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Bind (XX) -- The user wraps itself or an appendage, i.e. tail, around the target, and squeezes tightly. Probability of the opponent escaping depends on the conditions of the match. For example, a Pikachu which is tired stands no chance of getting out of a fresh Onix's bind, even after a few rounds. The opponent's and user's move selections during this time are hampered at the ref's discretion. The squeezing will usually do around decent damage over the course of a round, but may vary depending on how much the target struggles or size difference between the user and the target. Energy use scales similarly, with even a docile and small target taking a mild amount of energy to squeeze for a round, and stronger targets that struggle a lot taking potentially an extreme amount of energy to successfully hold for a full round. As the Pokémon tightly binds themselves around the target, they will generally be able to position themselves in a way that interferes with conventional switches as long as they are bound to the foe, provided there is not a massive difference in size (i.e. an Inkay Binding an Onix).

Clamp (WA) -- The user grabs the target with its jaws or shell, squeezing tightly. Pokémon with longer bodies may also wrap themselves around to tighten their grip. Rules applying to how long this attack lasts are the same as "Bind" with damage and energy over the course of a round being solid on average and scaling similarly. As they are clamped down tightly to the foe, the user can generally position themselves in a way that interferes with conventional switching as long as they are bound to the foe, provided there is not a massive difference in size (i.e. an Clamperl clamping an Onix).

Fire Spin (FI) -- Using good energy, the user fires a stream of spiraling flame towards the opponent that develops into a large 20-foot high cyclone of flame, which will linger on average for about half a round, though it may be dispelled earlier. Pokeémon trapped inside the tornado will sustain light fire damage, but trying to escape from it will deal good fire damage. The pillar of fire will interfere with the buffering pattern from Poké Balls, preventing the target from switching conventionally as long as the move is active.

Infestation (BG) - Using significant energy, the user sends forth a wave of small, bug-like creatures to attack the foe. The creatures swarm the target, dealing mild damage, but will linger on the foe for five rounds, dealing minor damage every round and causing discomfort that will annoy and distract the foe. The foe will become used to the annoyance over the course of the move, and the distraction effect will suffer from severe diminishing returns for repeated uses on the same target. The energy from the "bugs" interferes with the buffering pattern from Poké Balls, preventing the target from switching conventionally while the move is active.

Magma Storm (FI) -- The user fires a spray of lava that covers the opponent and surrounds them, keeping them confined to the area within the ring of lava and dealing extreme damage. The lava will cool after about 3 rounds. The energy from the lava radiates around the foe, making them somewhat uncomfortable if not used to heat and interfering with the buffering pattern in Poké Balls, preventing conventional switching as long as the lava is still hot.

Sand Tomb (GD) -- The user churns up a great deal of sand, either issuing it from its body or using the dirt or ground in the arena. This sand or dirt is sent at the foe, enveloping it in a low swirl of grating sand. The sand deals light damage without direct contact, though if the Pokémon attempts to pass through the vortex, it will suffer good damage. It also reduces line of sight somewhat for the Pokémon in it. If the arena is sandy, the vortex will be more of a whirlpool of sand, causing the foe to sink into it, making it harder to break from. The sand vortex also prevents the foe from being returned. Sand Tomb generally will last about a round after its use. Sand Tomb uses considerable energy. While the Pokémon is trapped in the sand pit or vortex, the sand will interfere with the buffering pattern of Poké Balls, preventing conventional switching while they are trapped.

Whirlpool (WA) -- The user swims in rapid circles underwater, creating a set of strong spiraling downward currents that can easily trap most Pokémon. Only minor direct damage is caused each round trapped, but the risk of choking on water will cause distress. The user may also use a land-based version of the attack, creating a Whirlpool out of water energy above their heads, which they use to trap their foe for a brief time, similar to Fire Spin. If the user is in water, this attack uses decent energy. If not, it uses heavy energy. While the whirlpool is active, the constant rush of water will refract the buffering pattern of Poké Balls and prevent the target from switching conventionally.

Wrap (XX) -- The user wraps an appendage around the target, usually a tail or vine, and squeezes hard, not letting go. Rules for this attack are the same as Bind with damage and energy usage being mild on average. As the Pokémon tightly wraps themselves around the target, they will generally be able to position themselves in a way that interferes with conventional switches as long as they are wrapped around the foe, provided there is not a massive difference in size (i.e. a Tentacool Wrapping around an Onix).

Mean Look (NO) -- Using good energy, the user glares at the opponent, covering it in a blue glow for a moment which quickly fades, placing a Curse on the opponent. This move makes the victim unable to be recalled until it has fainted, including with the use of switching moves like Baton Pass. It also can intimidate the opponent in a fashion similar to Leer. Mean Look lasts 5 rounds and each subsequent use will last 2 fewer rounds and fail after 3 uses. When the user switches out via convention switching or methods other Baton Pass, the curse will automatically fade.

>Sub

It's really, really debatable as to whether or not that is the Sub attacking. If anything, the Sub just throws itself at the opponent, which is basically what our version is.
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Old 06-12-2016, 09:54 PM   #94
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I kinda like Sub as a clone that works like a sturdier Double Team
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Old 06-12-2016, 09:58 PM   #95
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Just wanted to bring up Switching Moves since I didn't see them addressed one way or another. Could have missed it because I'm on mobile but wanted to make sure xp
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Old 06-13-2016, 06:14 AM   #96
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Shadow Ball (GH) -- The user charges up and fires a ball of significant Ghost energy at the opponent. Upon striking the foe, the ball bursts, letting out a ghostly wind that deals significant damage to those around it. This move has a 10% chance to slightly lower the foe's special defense stat for a few rounds.

OK, after a discussion in TO regarding Shadow Ball's splash damage, could the move be rewritten to state that the splash is not omnidirectional? Refs seem to ref it as omnidirectional atm, whereas having it just expand forwards from detonation is less hazardous for the user, and also gives it the AoE that people seem to think it needs/should have (Not cracking that can of shite open again).
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Old 06-13-2016, 03:14 PM   #97
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Look.

Why don't we just scrub Sub entirely.

Rewrite from the ground up like it's a long term shield - basically the user is protected by an aura but there is no separate double/clone/doll running around. This is so very much simpler and easier to balance.

EITHER this would cost health OR energy. Pick one. It need not be health. Regardless, it would contribute to tiredness.
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Old 06-13-2016, 03:18 PM   #98
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that doesn't make sense
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Old 06-13-2016, 05:08 PM   #99
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Seriously just make Sub a Safeguard that costs a set amount of health and it has a nice niche without making all tefs want to kill themselves.
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Old 06-13-2016, 05:28 PM   #100
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Agree, though to keep safeguards niche of pushing stuff away I'd say it should be more like an aura similar to that if bide.
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