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Old 09-11-2015, 07:38 PM   #126
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I honestly feel like 50 fits it better given that honestly there's still a fair gap in usability in the 'mon from TL4 to TL5, and less of one between the TL3 and TL4 'mon. I also like to think that TL5 should be where the progression of levels starts escalating a bit and those other levels be a bit easier to climb.

...of course there's always the weird compromise of 55 but having only a single TL that ends in something other than 0 is incredibly weird feeling.
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Old 09-11-2015, 07:49 PM   #127
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Gonna side with Stealthy here. It feels like a better progression, and when 50 was mentioned, my gut reaction was "did we really make it that low?"
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Old 09-11-2015, 07:57 PM   #128
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For Volbeat and Illumise, I kinda categorize them with Sableye and Mawile as things with pretty good movepools, but small size to utilize them. But instead of the kickass megas, the fireflies have flight. Their typing is also worse, but it's not that bad. Sableye and Mawile are certainly TL4, so Volbeat and Illumise fit too. Also obligatory "objectively best bug" reference. I do agree with Jeri that they can fit at TL3, but I'd rather see them at 4 because I think they just fit better. Also consider the bugs we have at each TL. The Fireflies definitely outclass Volcarona, Galvantula, and Escavalier, and are more in line with Scizor, Crustle, and Durant for quality.
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Old 09-12-2015, 06:48 AM   #129
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I'd personally rather see people have to spend equivalent time at TL2 and 3 then I would at 3 and 4. 5 is where the serious power jump in the current scales come with regards to acquisitions, and while the problem was strongly alleviated in the current changes, 5 is still where shit gets serious. I'd rather keep the current scales.

That in mind, and adopting the idea of removing the Badge requirement at TL5 (which makes sense), we have:

TL2: 10 KOs, 30 TP
TL3: 30 KOs, 75 TP
TL4: 50 KOs, 120 TP, 15 SP earned
TL5: 90 KOs, 200 TP, 20 SP earned
TL6: 140 KOs, 300 TP, 1 badge (Gym earned) and 30 SP earned
TL7: 200 KOs, 420 TP, 2 badges (Gym earned) and 40 SP earned
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Old 09-12-2015, 03:41 PM   #130
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So, just pointing out the fact that I loved the idea of having to do some form of reffing for Gym/Trainer matches, and even with the SP system I feel as though we should try to incorporate that in some way.
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Old 09-12-2015, 04:07 PM   #131
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Set a minimum requirement on Gym matches needing to be refereed for both TL6 and 7?

I mean really we could also look into boosting the Gym bonus for SP, since that would improve the chances of people picking those up. I feel another thing we have to be careful of though is that those matches are in short supply and would be in relatively high demand.
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Old 09-12-2015, 04:12 PM   #132
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This is true. I mean, I in no way propose a particularly high amount, just... something. Even a single Gym match reffed would be fine, because honestly they're very important parts of the League and if you can't improve yourself enough to get to the point where you can ref them in the first place you probably shouldn't be progressing to the high TLs.

...of course this requires that we do Evals frequently enough that people aren't waiting around to be able to ref a Gym Match if they ARE good enough. But every six months or so should be fine on that.
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Old 09-12-2015, 04:15 PM   #133
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Yeah. What about 1 for TL6, and 2 for TL7?
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Old 09-12-2015, 04:16 PM   #134
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EDIT: Nevermind, been covered while I was typing :p
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Old 09-12-2015, 04:25 PM   #135
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Yeah. What about 1 for TL6, and 2 for TL7?
This is probably fine.

...I say, realizing I'm shooting myself in the foot right now.
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Old 09-13-2015, 06:57 AM   #136
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Is there anything else people want to put forwards for acquisition changes before I make a post fully finalising all this stuff? Following are the things I agree on and will change.

Polibros: 5 to 4
Gigalith: 4 to 3
Blissey: 6 to 5
Ambipom: 3 to 4
Pupitar: 3 to 2
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Old 09-13-2015, 07:02 AM   #137
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I still think having Serperior available as an Uplevel for TL2s is a bit much, but that's up to you in the end.
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Old 09-13-2015, 07:09 AM   #138
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I'm trying to stay out of this but could I bring up the starters quickly?

In my role as #ASBRasputin I was involved in discussions about things like Blaziken being TL5 so happily accept the collective responsibility that goes with that. Now that we're in the debate phase, though... I understand the game balance argument, but is there anyway we can bring them down to TL4? Generally I have little time for the "bawwww why can't we use good things until high levels" argument but starters and Pikachu seem like fluffy enough examples that it may be worth double checking. Pokémon should involve some grinding but everyone loves Charizard.
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Old 09-13-2015, 07:16 AM   #139
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Personally, I don't see that as necessary-one of the first things I wanted to do with ASB was troll around with a Klinklang named Klawkwerk, but obviously I couldn't have it right away. I think that provides motivation for new users to put effort into it, so they can say "I earned this Charizard," and promotes the sense of commitment we all love here.
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Old 09-13-2015, 11:11 AM   #140
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Alright then. Since any further discussion seems to be entirely acquisitions based, consider the following live from this point onward. You may now achieve TL7!

TL2: 10 KOs, 30 TP
TL3: 30 KOs, 75 TP
TL4: 50 KOs, 120 TP, 15 SP earned
TL5: 90 KOs, 200 TP, 20 SP earned
TL6: 140 KOs, 300 TP, 1 badge (Gym earned), 1 Gym match refereed and 30 SP earned
TL7: 200 KOs, 420 TP, 2 badges (Gym earned), 2 Gym matches refereed and 40 SP earned
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Old 09-15-2015, 09:47 PM   #141
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So, I'm wondering, does anyone else have any other points or opinions they'd want to express on acquisition levels?
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Old 09-16-2015, 12:27 AM   #142
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Well, we were talking about over-saturation of Water-types in TL5 earlier in the thread (I think you brought it up, Slash?) and going off that I think Fighting-types have a similar thing going on. There's ~24 fighting type lines, 6 of which are TL5 and 9 of which are TL4. Hell, this means that ~39% of all non-legendary Fighting-types reside in TLs 4-6, including pre-evolutions. Fighting-Types are roughly as difficult to get as Dragon-types right now (~39% of non-legend Fightings are in TL4-TL6, ~41 of non-legend Dragons are in TL4-TL7) and somehow that really doesn't sit right with me.

Not all of these Fighters need to be this high. I'm not sure how Hawlucha got good enough to be compared with the likes of Swampert, Sableye, and Camerupt, especially when factoring in their Mega formes. ORAS move tutors didn't help it that much, guys. Two Elemental Punches, Iron head, Zen Headbutt, and Dual Chop is nice but not that nice. It can be TL3. Hariyama I could perhaps see dropping to 3 as well, though I'm more adamant about Hawlucha personally. Scrafty could probably drop to 3 as well on the basis that it's typing is really, really bad, I can probably count its ranged attacks on one hand and its support on the other, and honestly if you're a TL4 looking for a Fighting/Dark you should be getting an Uplevel Pangoro. Sure it's got some neat tricks in its physical movepool like Head Smash and I guess a decent SC but that's all it has going for it, which compared to a lot of the options in TL4 isn't much at all imo.
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Old 09-16-2015, 12:34 AM   #143
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Was shifting Haunter from 3 to 4 really needed?
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Old 09-16-2015, 01:29 AM   #144
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Considering that you get three uplevel slots by the time you hit TL6 and that there are only three pokemon in TL7, there isn't really much of a point to listing Dragonite, Gengar and Snorlax as TL7 acquisitions unless TL7 is expanded to include more pokemon.
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Old 09-16-2015, 02:11 AM   #145
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Honestly TL7 should probably include about five 'mon, but even with the three 'mon as they currently exist, yes you do have those three uplevel slots but you're not gonna be rocking up to a match with three uplevels, now are you? It still to some degree is a restriction on them and that's really all that matters.
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Old 09-16-2015, 06:13 AM   #146
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>Snorby

The only one of those I'm seriously adamant against is Hariyama. That thing is not a TL3.

It's also worth mentioning that of the Pokemon you mentioned, two of those were considered for TL5 on account of the fact that they're great in base form and have pretty solid Megas. They're some of the cream of the crop of TL4.
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Old 09-16-2015, 06:49 AM   #147
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>Connor

Fair enough on Hariyama.

And okay, fine, but even though my examples were some of the better TL4s, that doesn't change the fact that they're leagues above the 'mon I'm mentioning. And tbh, I could have just as easily used Druddigon and Mawile and the point still would have been valid. *Shrugs*
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Old 09-16-2015, 03:13 PM   #148
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Scrafty is definitely TL4. It's typing isn't that bad. Fairy isn't that common of a type, and beyond that it only has two weaknesses. It's movepool is pretty good. Primarily physical, just like most fighters, but good with some nice weakness coverage. The argument that Pangoro is better really doesn't hold considering Pangoro is a level above. If the two were the same level you'd have a point of Scrafty being outclassed, but if somebody wants to blow an uplevel slot on Pangoro then so be it. Compare Scrafty to fighters within its TL like Hawlucha, Toxicroak, and Emboar, not the ones that are clearly a league above like Primeape, Lucario, and Machamp. Scrafty's really a good analogue to Toxicroak, who you expect from typing to be solidly TL3 but then when you look at the movepool you realize that this is a really solid and underrated pokemon.

It really doesn't bother me that a lot of fighters are in the upper TLs. There's not a ton of fighters, and most of the fully evolved ones are pretty fucking good. It's a good type, they're gonna have to be high TLs.
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Old 09-16-2015, 04:48 PM   #149
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I would like to remind you of the honestly rather great distribution both Dazzling Gleam and Play Rough have. Thanks to Play Rough especially, Scrafty can often find itself boned by mon it by all rights should be beating 1v1- Persian comes to mind as an example.

But alright, if you'd rather talk about TL4s, then let's compare Toxicroak and Scrafty, shall we?

-Toxicroak has a much easier time dealing with its crippling double weakness to Psychic than Scrafty does dealing with its own crippling double weakness, thanks to a whole slew of Dark moves that includes stuff even Scrafty itself doesn't get, like Sucker Punch and Pursuit, with both Bug and Ghost offtype backing it up further. I would argue that Toxicroak has far better weakness coverage than Scrafty.

-Toxicroak has some really nice options Scrafty can only hope for, like Meditate, Bounce, Bullet Punch, and, importantly, Earthquake.

-Going off that, Toxicroak is one of the minority of Fighting-Types that can work well at range. Stuff like Belch, Vaccuum Wave, and Nasty Plot, none of which Scrafty receives. This makes Toxicroak more versatile than Scrafty. Toxicroak's SC makes the likes of Belch, Sludge Bomb, and Sludge Wave energy efficient, making Toxicroak that much stronger.

Sure, Scrafty has some small movepool merits over 'croak (Iron Head, Dragon Dance and Fire Punch come to mind), but overall I would argue that Toxicroak is the better 'mon of the two.

Emboar I would also argue as being better than Scrafty; it lacks a double weakness, is large enough to abuse its size well, has a nice range of offtype (including actual range) and even has access to some pretty neat stuff like Will-O-Wisp, Scald, Curse, and Bulldoze.

Now, if we can step away from TL4 and look at TL3, where I propose Scrafty goes, for a moment...

Take a look at Seismitoad- it's got a double weakness like Scrafty, but that's the only flaw in an otherwise amazing typing that grants Seismitoad toys that, while standard for both of his types, form an interesting combination when put together. Scrafty has a similar movepool situation (though a worse typing by far), getting standard fair stuff for a Fighting biped and for a Dark type with a just a couple notable moves, but the movepool looks pretty great when put together. Seismitoad, like Scrafty, comes from a type that's over-saturated in higher TLs, and I would argue has far better control of its weakness than Scrafty has over its weaknesses- Hell, Seismitoad is familiar with a type (Poison) that hits its only weakness SE, and has a good bit of Ice-offtype backing that up! Seismitoad also benefits from a great SC, giving a boost to already solid moves like Earthquake and Hyper Voice.

If Seismitoad can be a TL3, as the likes of Lumineon- which let's not kid ourselves is leagues below Seismitoad- I see absolutely no reason to hold Scrafty back from TL3, where I think it's about as good as some of the better Fightings there- Machoke, Hawlucha (assuming it gets moved down which it absolutely should), and Hitmochan come to mind.
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Old 09-16-2015, 08:09 PM   #150
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So, with a few exceptions, Dazzling Gleam is primarily given to pokemon that already resist or outright counter the fighting type. Scrafty's different because dark hurts a lot of these pokemon, so that does turn good matchups into closer ones, but good use of movepool quirks, SE STAB, and an SC reduction to fairy moves helps. I mean, we went to the 6/9 system with a 2/3 SE scale in good part so double weak pokemon are not instantly wasted if they are set against an opponent with the move they're weak to especially in an otherwise favorable matchup. They're still hurt pretty bad, but they can handle themselves in this pseudo-neutral matchup.

And Play Rough really doesn't have superb distribution. Persian may win the matchup, but that's not as much because of Play Rough as it is because of Play Rough and Bide limiting Scrafty's SE onslaught when going first and Persian just being pretty damn good. Even then Scrafty gets Drain Punch for some good recovery plus other tricks. Against Cincinno or Stoutland though? Fairy move be damned Scrafty has that matchup, just not as cleanly as it would like.

Scrafty gets anti-Fairy offtype in both Steel and Poison varieties, plus Spite against opponents just relying on Fairy Offtype who make the mistake of ending the previous round with their fairy move. Yes, Toxicroak is the OG Dark/Fighting and Scrafty is not a great Dark type (just like a lot of dark types really). Earthquake and Sucker Punch are certainly missed. But the rest? Pursuit has distance closing capabilities but Scrafty, being a Dark Type, can live without the psychic shielding. Missing Bounce isn't a big deal when you have High Jump Kick. Bullet Punch is really weak and while speed is nice... it does Mild damage and Scrafty has better steel moves. Meditate is okay to miss when you have Amnesia for confusion clearing and Dragon Dance as a useful boost move. It may not buff attack as much but the speed boost is nice and underrated.

Scrafty also has ranged options of its own. I mean, it's not that bad of a dark type. Snarl and Dark Pulse exist to match Toxicroak's poison options, plus Scrafty has its own Sludge Bomb as Toxicroak has its own Dark Pulse. Matches Toxicroak at the rock moves and Mid Charge Focus Blast. Each then gets a few other options, but Scrafty's solid at range. It's no Hitmon.

Overall, Toxicroak is better (and Emboar over both), but it's not by leagues and leagues. The two are not that far apart. If we're going to move any TL4 Fighters to TL3, neither are the best of candidates.

Chesnaught is worse than both. It has a much more common double weakness to fear, plus five others. It has good coverage, largely thanks to tutors, but it has limited access to the grass bag of tricks. And nice as the SC is, the fact that Chesnaught has six weaknesses really hurts it.

Then there's Conkeldurr, who has a damn sparse movepool for a TL4, with the closest thing to a saving grace being a 1.2 boost to like all of it.

I do think Hawlucha's just fine at TL4. I think it was probably TL3 before tutors, so I realize I may overestimate it a bit. Its style is just really weird. Fighting types usually aren't so reliant on mobility, but I love that it is. I suppose it's one of those situations where if you can really make that style click for you, Hawlucha is a TL4, but if you can't, then you can still use Hawlucha competently as a high end TL3.

Seismitoad is TL3 to separate it from Quag and Swampert, who are similar enough to Seismitoad as is and also outclass it. Since it was decided that those two should stay at TL4, Seismitoad goes down to 3. Seismitoad is a good pokemon that handles itself much better than when it first showed up. However, it was decided that Quag and Swampert outclass it hard enough, and Seismitoad is not a popular pick, so it was okay to go down to TL3 with Whiscash and Gastrodon. Bad pick here on your part.

So let's look at Malamar. A double weakness to bug and a weakness to Fairy. It can hurt bug thanks to random Flamethrower and Rock Slide but Signal Beam is everywhere, and Malamar has an okay movepool but is not great at coverage, mainly relying on support quirks. Definitely worse off than Scrafty.

Then there's Volcarona. Cool as shit. Really, it really is. Some good hard hitting moves in it's repertoire. Too bad it's totally fucked against any Rock type, getting only Solar Beam for return SE. Rock Slide is also absurdly well distributed. Definitely worse off than Scrafty.

Abomasnow is a powerhouse of a pokemon with a huge size, a huger Mega, and a good set of moves with some solid coverage and support. But it is fucked by its double weakness to Flamethrower and all the other weaknesses. Definitely worse off than Scrafty.

Generally I think of it as TL3s really struggle with their weaknesses, and TL4s are hurt by them but are capable despite them (Water/Ground is one of the notable exceptions). Toxicroak and Scrafty are good 'mon that have a double weak that hurts them, but doesn't cripple them and they're perfectly strong beyond them. TL3s? Abomasnow is so weak that its abilities to deal with them just can't hold up, while Scrafty's not that weak. Malamar's not terrible defensively but its movepool's potential is just too limited, while Scrafty has pretty great coverage even if it isn't perfect. Volcarona is in the middle where its poor defense is a struggle and it has good but not great potential. Scrafty beats it in both sectors.
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