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Old 09-10-2015, 06:49 PM   #101
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I think if we're really concerned about how long things take, the answer is to brainstorm how to make ASB more efficient. We're probably due for a conversation on that anyway.
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Old 09-10-2015, 07:01 PM   #102
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On that note! If we think things go too slowly, I think the answer could be this: Once a battle has concluded, award to both battlers the KOs they scored. If the match is ended by DQ, do not give the DQ'ed any KOs, however. This not only makes people keep on top of DQ time, but allows for some early movement through the ranks. TL1 should be a pls e to learn the ropes, not a place to stagnate until enough newbies show up for you to stomp. It would also promote larger matches such as 6v6 that net lots of SP for refs because the loser would be able to get some KOs for their effort through the long haul rather than to have all the time wasted because they lost 0-1.
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Old 09-10-2015, 07:06 PM   #103
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Probably a topic for another time, but I know in skype earlier I _think_ Emi (may have been someone else but I'm p sure it was Emi) suggested with the new TL7 to have tiers of Gym Leaders. This would make it easier for TL4s to a) get gyms and b) beat gyms. Definitely nothing serious, we'd probably only need 2 tiers. Higher tier GLs would have TL3s go to their Gym Trainer and lower tier GLs would only be challengable by those TL4 or below or something and have slightly toned down badges as a result. Idk just food for thought in regards to Stealthy's comments to gyms in the TL7 system.
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Old 09-10-2015, 07:12 PM   #104
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Also, since I think we've been just really distracted from this part of the shift, let's talk acquisitions. Usually a popular subject. I'm sure there are more things people want moved around besides Blissey.
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Old 09-10-2015, 07:24 PM   #105
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On that note! If we think things go too slowly, I think the answer could be this: Once a battle has concluded, award to both battlers the KOs they scored. If the match is ended by DQ, do not give the DQ'ed any KOs, however. This not only makes people keep on top of DQ time, but allows for some early movement through the ranks. TL1 should be a pls e to learn the ropes, not a place to stagnate until enough newbies show up for you to stomp. It would also promote larger matches such as 6v6 that net lots of SP for refs because the loser would be able to get some KOs for their effort through the long haul rather than to have all the time wasted because they lost 0-1.
This also encourages people to battle people of their own skill level and makes newbie stomping look even worse

as for the actual thread purpose, if Mr. Mime is TL6 and Hidden Power exists, Mime Jr. might deserve a bump to 2?
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Old 09-10-2015, 08:36 PM   #106
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Eh... Jr's lack of Fairy is notable, but it's missing way more than that on Mr. Mime.
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Old 09-10-2015, 08:42 PM   #107
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Moving the discussion back to acquisitions, I would honestly say that Manectric is probably too low under the new system.

It's got a Mega (a pretty solid one at that- Electrode-level speed, permacharge, and Fear boost is nothing to scoff at, total fugliness aside), a great typing in pure electric, and admittedly a somewhat small movepool, but in all honesty its movepool is excellent for an Electric and has what Manectric needs. In addition to your standard fare for electric toys, it gets nice stuff like Ice Fang, Snarl, Curse, Overheat, and Flamethrower. The Mega Forme has pretty decent size, being over a foot taller- and slightly heavier- than Luxray, another TL3 Electric who is in many ways comparable but ultimately, at least in my opinion- inferior. Fighting offtype is the only thing Luxray has going for it when compared to Mega Manectric, so it strikes me as silly that the pair of them are in the same TL. Even ignoring Luxray, I personally don't see any of Houndoom, Illumise, Weezing, Durant, or Beartic as better than Manectric (granted I've only seen a couple of those in practice), yet they're all in TL4.

In terms of drops, I'd argue that Aerodactyl should be TL4. It's no Tyranitar and it's no Rampardos. I honestly cannot see a good reason for it to be TL5 other than Archeops having been moved to TL4, which is really shaky reasoning at best.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, Leavanny really shouldn't be TL3. It's significantly worse than basically the entire TL. Why was it even put there in the first place?
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Old 09-10-2015, 09:56 PM   #108
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I support kicking Blissey down to TL5

On the subject of making TL7 a little larger a pool, Eelektross is probably a good candidate there, Metagross as well.

Honestly, I feel like Mr. Mime should be TL5 as well, but I have a feeling more people support it being TL6, and it's not terrible there. Do not move Mime Jr. up. It sucks.

Speaking of lines with babies, Pichu line should probably really follow the same 1 => 3 => 6 format the Clefairy line does.

Are Volbeat and Illumise really TL4 material? They're good, no doubt, but that's when their small size really starts to hinder them. Are they really that good that we need to clip their wings?

Ambipom might want to be put up to TL4 instead of TL3

Marowak and Sandslash are both TL4. Marowak should definitely stay at that level, but Sandslash really feels outclassed there and we have much better 'mon in TL3.

Ariados is TL2. Galvantula is TL3. This does not sit right, since Ariados is in my honest opinion better, even if Galvantula may have better typing. And even if you disagree, you should at the very least agree that they're damn close. Close enough to both be on the same level, probably TL3.

Froslass might need to go from TL3 to TL4.

Solrock and Lunatone, on the other hand, are at TL3 and probably need to get kicked back down to TL2.

Pupitar is really more like a TL2 Pokemon, if we're honest (and the 1 => 2 => 5 gap is no problem because we have Tynamo line at 1 => 2 => 6).

On Leavanny, I know what we have as convention. I get that. But we've broken convention on Acquisitions before when the result of the convention was clearly not right. Hell, this is exactly what we've been doing every review, breaking the conventions that do not line up in the sense of balance and logic. This should be one of those times. Bumping Swadloon to TL1 and Leavanny to TL2 is pretty balanced and logical, based on how they are.

I think the Poli line (both branches) should go down to 1 => 2 => 4, or 1 => 3 => 4 if you think Poliwhirl is too big for TL2 britches (but things like Croconaw and Wartortle, of similar calibre or possibly better, aren't). But I don't feel like Poliwrath and Politoed really hit TL5 well. There's good, but I honestly have a really hard time comparing them to something like Slowking, Starmie, or Blastoise.

Tentacruel also strikes me as something more TL3 rank than TL4

Castform, on the other hand, seems to be TL2 on the list. It has the ability to switch between 4 different STABs almost at will (and unlike Porygon, has superior control and can choose what type), and then it just keeps getting gifted things. It's got Hurricane now. I feel like it's really a TL3 Pokemon, although my opinions are not terribly strong on this one, still something to point out.

Bibarel and especially Diggersby also do not strike me as TL4 material. This is putting them on par with Raticate and above Furret. While I might be able to see an argument for Bibarel as low TL4, Diggersby doesn't really seem to fit it at all.

Agreeing with Snorby on Manectric (and of course Leavanny as detailed above), although I personally don't like dropping Aerodactyl down.

I also personally don't feel like both Golem and Gigalith should be in TL4, probably one should be dropped. And with Gigalith, you can't even make the weight/size argument, because Glalie is TL3 and quite similar.

Some of these I feel more strongly about than others, and some it's more that while reviewing the list, just didn't sit completely right and I felt I should bring up, but not exactly passionate about.
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Old 09-10-2015, 10:11 PM   #109
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Beheeyem should probably get moved up. I love that good pokemon are accessible early but Beheeyem has a good movepool and while its not that great as a Psychic it is pretty good as a Pokemon. Going from TL2 to TL3 is probably fine imo
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Old 09-10-2015, 10:13 PM   #110
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Do keep in mind that the reason some Pokémon from the more flooded types (Water, Normal, Flying) or types with a lot of very similar Pokémon (Fighting, Psychic) are lower than they seem they should be is because they are outclassed by things above them and would see a lot less use if not pushed down. Beheeyem is a good example of that.
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Old 09-10-2015, 10:18 PM   #111
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Agreeing with Jeri on Bbeheeyem
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Old 09-11-2015, 07:34 AM   #112
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(Small interjection - acquisitions discussion can continue, but are there any other protestations against the previously quoted TL requirements or can I put those into the announcement and be done with it?)

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Old 09-11-2015, 08:23 AM   #113
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I support kicking Blissey down to TL5

Okay.

On the subject of making TL7 a little larger a pool, Eelektross is probably a good candidate there, Metagross as well.

We discussed both of these and were pretty iffy on the both of them.

Honestly, I feel like Mr. Mime should be TL5 as well, but I have a feeling more people support it being TL6, and it's not terrible there. Do not move Mime Jr. up. It sucks.

Mr. Mime is exceptional, better than Gardevoir who pretty much everyone agrees is a 5.

Speaking of lines with babies, Pichu line should probably really follow the same 1 => 3 => 6 format the Clefairy line does.

Our biggest reason for 1 > 2 > 5 is Pikachu's status as a mascot. Pika is a pretty good candidate for 3, but it feels strange keeping him out of the hands of new members. Also I feel like Raichu is much more of a 5 than a 6.

Are Volbeat and Illumise really TL4 material? They're good, no doubt, but that's when their small size really starts to hinder them. Are they really that good that we need to clip their wings?

I'm biased on this one. They could live fine at 3 and I wouldn't really object.

Ambipom might want to be put up to TL4 instead of TL3

Good call.

Marowak and Sandslash are both TL4. Marowak should definitely stay at that level, but Sandslash really feels outclassed there and we have much better 'mon in TL3.

I'm a little torn on this one, because while Marowak is exceptional, Sandslash is not anywhere near as diverse. But at the same time, Sandslash is dangerous in the right hands. 3 might be smart but it's a little borderline.

Ariados is TL2. Galvantula is TL3. This does not sit right, since Ariados is in my honest opinion better, even if Galvantula may have better typing. And even if you disagree, you should at the very least agree that they're damn close. Close enough to both be on the same level, probably TL3.

Not really informed enough to comment.

Froslass might need to go from TL3 to TL4.

I'm iffy here - Froslass is good but she has some near-crippling flaws and is sort of awkward to play. I think she works pretty well in TL3 but would struggle in 4.

Solrock and Lunatone, on the other hand, are at TL3 and probably need to get kicked back down to TL2.

We had them initially at TL2 but pulled them up by analogy with the Kanto fossils. Even if they have awful typings their movesets are good enough that they function well at TL3 but would be dominant at TL2.

Pupitar is really more like a TL2 Pokemon, if we're honest (and the 1 => 2 => 5 gap is no problem because we have Tynamo line at 1 => 2 => 6).

Yeah I agree with this one. I mentioned Pupitar before but I think we just kinda missed it.

On Leavanny, I know what we have as convention. I get that. But we've broken convention on Acquisitions before when the result of the convention was clearly not right. Hell, this is exactly what we've been doing every review, breaking the conventions that do not line up in the sense of balance and logic. This should be one of those times. Bumping Swadloon to TL1 and Leavanny to TL2 is pretty balanced and logical, based on how they are.

I'm a little iffy about Sewaddle/Swadloon since Sewaddle is still usable (bad but usable). idk I'd consider it but it'd be setting a precedence that would be moving a lot more fully evolved 'mon downwards.

I think the Poli line (both branches) should go down to 1 => 2 => 4, or 1 => 3 => 4 if you think Poliwhirl is too big for TL2 britches (but things like Croconaw and Wartortle, of similar calibre or possibly better, aren't). But I don't feel like Poliwrath and Politoed really hit TL5 well. There's good, but I honestly have a really hard time comparing them to something like Slowking, Starmie, or Blastoise.

I agree with this but I was outvoted.

Tentacruel also strikes me as something more TL3 rank than TL4

Can't really comment here.

Castform, on the other hand, seems to be TL2 on the list. It has the ability to switch between 4 different STABs almost at will (and unlike Porygon, has superior control and can choose what type), and then it just keeps getting gifted things. It's got Hurricane now. I feel like it's really a TL3 Pokemon, although my opinions are not terribly strong on this one, still something to point out.

I'm honestly not sure if it'll make a difference at this point, since Castform is so weird I doubt you'll see many TL2s use it really effectively.

Bibarel and especially Diggersby also do not strike me as TL4 material. This is putting them on par with Raticate and above Furret. While I might be able to see an argument for Bibarel as low TL4, Diggersby doesn't really seem to fit it at all.

I encourage you to look at Diggersby's tutor list post ORAS.

Agreeing with Snorby on Manectric (and of course Leavanny as detailed above), although I personally don't like dropping Aerodactyl down.

I rather like Manectric but I think it's too shallow for TL4.

I also personally don't feel like both Golem and Gigalith should be in TL4, probably one should be dropped. And with Gigalith, you can't even make the weight/size argument, because Glalie is TL3 and quite similar.

Again, can't comment.

Some of these I feel more strongly about than others, and some it's more that while reviewing the list, just didn't sit completely right and I felt I should bring up, but not exactly passionate about.
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Old 09-11-2015, 08:41 AM   #114
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Commenting on what Jeri felt he couldn't -

I really feel Galvantula is better than Ariados. The Electric typing does a lot for it. Tentacruel is absolutely a TL4 Pokemon. It is pretty great. Gigalith is probably slightly more deserving of 3 than Golem despite the typing.

Otherwise agreeing with him on pretty much everything else. Only two I'd comment on otherwise are the Polis. They both have enough at their disposal beyond good typings that I feel they fall into TL5, but I can see them functioning as high end TL4s.
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Old 09-11-2015, 11:14 AM   #115
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Solrock and Lunatone, on the other hand, are at TL3 and probably need to get kicked back down to TL2.

We had them initially at TL2 but pulled them up by analogy with the Kanto fossils. Even if they have awful typings their movesets are good enough that they function well at TL3 but would be dominant at TL2.
But Omastar was put at TL2

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I've heard some other folks in agreement about Ariados being superior, so it's at least close enough to be a real debate. Which was my main point for making them the same level. And Poison's not a bad typing itself.
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As may be expected though, our clear winner here was Kairne, ASB's champion of prioritizing the pokemon you like over those that are objectively better. I mean, one of his mains is a Watchog.
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Old 09-11-2015, 11:47 AM   #116
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We separated the Kanto Fossils because, honestly, they needed to be. Omastar has poor land movement, isn't that agile even in water, and has a much worse movepool than Kabutops, who has excellent movement on both land and in water, and has a better movepool.

With regards to Ariados/Galvantula, I still feel the latter is realistically better at those TLs. I can't imagine anyone at TL3 will be able to use Ariados in the appropriate manner, whereas Galvantula is pretty one dimensional to most and will be able to easily be used effectively.
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Old 09-11-2015, 11:52 AM   #117
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I was pointing that the comparison doesn't match the example given since only one of the fossils was done that way, as he pointed out "the Kanto fossils", not "Kabutops" as the comparison line. So the comparison falls apart
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As may be expected though, our clear winner here was Kairne, ASB's champion of prioritizing the pokemon you like over those that are objectively better. I mean, one of his mains is a Watchog.
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Old 09-11-2015, 12:21 PM   #118
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Oh. Well they're realistically comparable to Kabutops. Sure they have weaknesses up the wazoo but they also have the ability to shoot back at these (and more importantly, they have Baton Pass).
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Old 09-11-2015, 12:35 PM   #119
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Dewott

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Do keep in mind that the reason some Pokémon from the more flooded types (Water, Normal, Flying) or types with a lot of very similar Pokémon (Fighting, Psychic) are lower than they seem they should be is because they are outclassed by things above them and would see a lot less use if not pushed down. Beheeyem is a good example of that.
Oh, on the subject of the Polis, I actually wanted to mention something on this. By my count, I think TL5 has 11 Waters out of I believe 45 or so (my eyes aren't great at focusing with that format, but I think the count was there. If not, very close), so about a quarter of them. TL4 I think has the same number of Waters, but the overall pool of Pokemon seems about double TL5's, so there's some extreme saturation in TL5. So that might also be a reason to bump them down, since it was acknowledged they could be workable as TL4, too. Meant to bring that up.

I think that's the end of my opinions on Acquisitions changes, now, with the newer level scale.


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(Small interjection - acquisitions discussion can continue, but are there any other protestations against the previously quoted TL requirements or can I put those into the announcement and be done with it?)

Meant to respond affirmative on this part, for me, at least.
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Old 09-11-2015, 12:53 PM   #120
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Mmm. Browsing over the other TL5 Water types I can see your point, they're bloody good but they're lacking in certain areas. They can probably move to 4.
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Old 09-11-2015, 02:11 PM   #121
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If Toed is making the move down to 4, would Golduck also be considered? I distinctly remember the two having relatively similar movepools, though upon looking Toed seems to have more physical oriented moves and a bit more ground coverage while Golduck has more utility and psychic moves but only gets Mud Bomb for ground coverage.

I can see Golduck staying at TL5 but I do think it's about on par with Politoed.
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Old 09-11-2015, 02:24 PM   #122
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Golduck also gets shit like Petal Dance, Signal Beam, and Shadow Claw for increased coverage. Both it and the Polis are just really underrated pokemon, though they are definitely outclassed by Gatr and Lanturn, I think they show up a lot of the TL4 waters. Damn borderline cases.
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Old 09-11-2015, 02:33 PM   #123
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Golduck is also explicitly familiar with Psychic. It's ahead of the Polibros. Polibros are on the borderline where they could drop, but Golduck is on the line where it should really stay.
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Old 09-11-2015, 07:10 PM   #124
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I may or may not have forgotten about all of the weird things Golduck got.
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Old 09-11-2015, 07:31 PM   #125
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Oh. On KOs, can we put TL4 up to 60 KOs? 50 just feels low, and 30/60/90 for TLs 3-5 is a nice split. Could be leftover feelings from how the 6 TL system works, but having people spend as short at TL3 as TL2 feels off.
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