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Old 09-10-2015, 02:15 PM   #76
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Well I mean this is why I'm positing the question. You get to challenge the main Ubers, but what else would justify it? A free Legend rental like Sneaze suggested? Something else?
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Old 09-10-2015, 02:27 PM   #77
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You know that I'm bad with the kind of things Connor XD. Honestly I would be okay with a free Legend Challenge but I haven't looked at the numbers too closely to see if TL8 is much higher than TL7.
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Old 09-10-2015, 02:31 PM   #78
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Legend Challenge is where I draw the line on handing things out. A rental? Sure thing. A Challenge should be earned, not handed.
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Old 09-10-2015, 02:38 PM   #79
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Making it up to TL8 isn't earning it enough? Also I worded wrong, where is TL8 compared to the previous TL7?
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Old 09-10-2015, 02:39 PM   #80
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I really do think scrunching back down to 7 is the wiser course of action, and should be reconsidered. But if we're sticking with 8 and if 7 has a bigger stable of pokemon, that plus access to the lower Uber Legends is a solid incentive on its own.

Giving a free Legend Rental really isn't necessary, the main benefit it has is that people will actually participate in Legend Rental matches, which are at least cool to show off.
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Old 09-10-2015, 03:05 PM   #81
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Alright. On a personal level I'd rather we kept it to TL7. Eliminating TL8, how do these sound, with no changes to other requirements?

TL4: 50 KOs
TL5: 90 KOs
TL6: 140 KOs
TL7: 200 KOs
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Old 09-10-2015, 03:09 PM   #82
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Would the corresponding TP requirements be:

TL4: 125
TL5: 200
TL6: 300
TL7: 420

Then I'd like to see TL4 lowered to 120 but other than that it looks good.
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Old 09-10-2015, 03:14 PM   #83
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Actually dropping TL4 to 120 would make sense with regards to scaling. Totally okay with that.

TL2: 10 KOs, 30 TP
TL3: 30 KOs, 75 TP
TL4: 50 KOs, 120 TP, 15 SP earned
TL5: 90 KOs, 200 TP, 1 badge and 20 SP earned
TL6: 140 KOs, 300 TP, 2 badges (1 Gym earned) and 30 SP earned
TL7: 200 KOs, 420 TP, 3 badges (2 Gym earned) and 40 SP earned
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Old 09-10-2015, 03:17 PM   #84
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I feel like I'm getting whiplash reading this thread. I mean this is a fair compromise between the original and what we were just discussing I suppose, but yeah I'm still a little iffy about what is effectively the old TL 4-6 being that high in the new TL5-7. It just is starting to feel as though the point is less about balancing the levels and more about taking the big boy toys away from any average person that doesn't spend half a decade here.
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Old 09-10-2015, 03:21 PM   #85
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I'm going to be honest for a moment here. If I can get to TL4 relatively quickly despite a reset and going through ASB's severe reffing drought a couple of years back, I think this is manageable. Like it took me close to four years to get where I'm at but honestly, it really only happened in two.
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Old 09-10-2015, 03:24 PM   #86
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With respect, considering we are giving people access to enough uplevel slots to easily have the three TL7 Pokemon as uplevels by TL6, you have access to every Pokemon 10 KOs and 150 TP earlier. There needs to be some aspect of stretching out the Trainer Levels because this is what this was meant to achieve. Most things will be able to be accessed at an earlier stage than they used to be though.
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Old 09-10-2015, 03:37 PM   #87
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It just is starting to feel as though the point is less about balancing the levels and more about taking the big boy toys away from any average person that doesn't spend half a decade here.
So it's not just me? ;p
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Old 09-10-2015, 03:39 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneaze View Post
I feel like I'm getting whiplash reading this thread. I mean this is a fair compromise between the original and what we were just discussing I suppose, but yeah I'm still a little iffy about what is effectively the old TL 4-6 being that high in the new TL5-7. It just is starting to feel as though the point is less about balancing the levels and more about taking the big boy toys away from any average person that doesn't spend half a decade here.
Sneaze, have muh babez
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Old 09-10-2015, 03:48 PM   #89
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The fundamental problem is that introducing TL7 will always cause the acquisitions to become more spread out. Due to the fact we treat them as pseudo-tiers these days, this means the better stuff is going to be available later. We either introduce TL7 and have to pay the sacrifice of some things being available later on, or we don't introduce it at all. There is no point trying to keep the acquisitions equivalently nearly the same because this just defeats the point of this implementation.

With the exception of one or two of you, I know for a fact the majority of the people complaining in this thread want TL7.
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Old 09-10-2015, 03:48 PM   #90
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Let's not descend into elitism nonsense, alright. No one is trying to take away toys from anyone.
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Old 09-10-2015, 03:54 PM   #91
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I think the big fundamental fact people are not realizing here is that, no, you're not supposed have access to the objectively better mon quickly (the definition of quick being relative to each person's own discretion). Just because Absol and Gyarados were once TL2 does not mean every one who was TL2 after they were bumped up is entitled to have it. Yes, it sucks for many who gets dicked over (including myself), but there are far more benefits to the league as a whole with the implementation of TL7 over the short term negatives that some of us are dealing with now.
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Old 09-10-2015, 04:03 PM   #92
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I don't think it's entitled to envision myself with a Gyarados in a year and a half to two years versus two to three. Why are we scaling the game to fit the Dave and Cibbir advancement model? I also wasn't aware the system was broken in the first place?
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Old 09-10-2015, 04:04 PM   #93
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People complain all the time about members rising through the ranks too quickly. Everyone has at one point or another and these are the kinds of complaints we're trying to address.
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Old 09-10-2015, 04:06 PM   #94
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Why are these complaints valid? Is that actually a problem?
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Old 09-10-2015, 04:12 PM   #95
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Honestly I think the only time the complaint had ever been valid is when people rose sheerly by beating up newer trainers and never by fighting those of actual skill level. At the end of the day ASB is a game, and if you have to spend literal years to get to a moderate point that is just kind of absurd. There are globally popular MMOs that allow you to be playing with the top tier stuff in half that time.
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Old 09-10-2015, 04:54 PM   #96
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What is a moderate point though? Frankly the Pokemon we have at TL4 or 5 are perfectly usable within their own right and getting there should not take particularly long.

Like, I don't get it. What you seem to be asking for is us to completely lower the requirements across the board and have the old system squashed into 7 Trainer Levels. That's totally pointless. We may as well scrap everything.
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Old 09-10-2015, 05:01 PM   #97
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If it means anything, I didn't see the issue with the new system. I think we all need to take a day or two, put our heads out of this, and cool off.
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Old 09-10-2015, 05:12 PM   #98
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So I think neither a crunched TL8 or an uncrunched TL7 really fixes the fact that ASB is kinda slow. And neither one makes a difference that if you want to use Lucario and Charizard and Machamp all at will, it will take time in the order of years rather than months. It sucks but that's an unfortunate part of how we work, and fixing that is a different discussion.

Perhaps we bring back the idea of a Silverwing Token-like "upevo" slot that you get at TL3 with certain restrictions to help ease this, like a basic restriction of "you can only grab a pokemon that is 2 TLs above you". Has a chance to disobey if brought in the same match as an uplevel. Maybe some clause about how it functions in Equiall matches, where it acts according to the level of the Equiall (so no Snorlaxes in Equiall 1 even if you're a TL5). I didn't like it with 6 TLs because then TL3s could grab a TL5 which just felt much to me, but I'm more okay with TL4s grabbing a new TL6 for whatever reason.

The other thing I think is worth considering is gym pressure. Right now we have a huge gap between TL5s and 4s in terms of trainer count. I think a big part of that is that we expect TL4s to get a gym. Recognizing that, it's not really a great attitude, but it's one we have. That process has a slowdown effect as you focus on fighting stronger (and slower) opponents for notables and scenarios and such. With 7 TLs, nobody's expecting the TL4 to get approved for a gym, even if that's a totally capable thing and good for the people who do that. Getting up to 90 KOs and only pursuing a gym if you want one at the pace you want? Much easier than charging towards 100 while trying to beat a GL and earn your own gym (and earning your own gym is getting harder as the GL count grows).

I think part of this is that we have a badge req there, and while stigma isn't the right word, using a purchasable badge to get TL5 is considered less honorable/respectable. Which kinda has me now thinking... why don't we kill off the badge req at new TL5? I do think it's feasible to earn a badge at TL4, but it'd be hard because our gyms are hard but that's a discussion for another day. Instead, TL5 is 90 KOs, 200 TP, and however much SP we decided on. Then at TL6 and 7, you need 1 and 2 Gym Badges respectively, purchased does not count for any of the requisites.

I think that 90 KOs, 200 TP, no badge, and a small pile of SP with no pressure to stall out to get a gym is something reasonably attainable by the average member. You can't do it in under a year unless you're like Connor or Dave, but if you want the average dedicated member to get almost free run of pokemon access in under a year without going full EG, you need to halve the requirement or speed ASB up. Personally, I'd prefer we go into a new thread and start brainstorming on the latter.
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Old 09-10-2015, 06:12 PM   #99
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What is a moderate point though? Frankly the Pokemon we have at TL4 or 5 are perfectly usable within their own right and getting there should not take particularly long.

Like, I don't get it. What you seem to be asking for is us to completely lower the requirements across the board and have the old system squashed into 7 Trainer Levels. That's totally pointless. We may as well scrap everything.
No I said the most recently posted bit was likely a good compromise, it honestly is just the feel of things that worries me. I just don't personally think that someone who actually tries should have to wait 2+ years to use a Charizard. That said, if we think we can male these tiers work and still have the average person get to the new TL4/5 in 1.5-2 years or so, I'm all for it. I also think a lot of the stuff Stealthy just brought up will help with that. ...don't like the upevo slot idea though, feels like it'd devalue the acquisition levels entirely.
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Old 09-10-2015, 06:27 PM   #100
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technically speaking I hit all the most recent reqs for TL4 outside of SP (after announcement) gains, and have been ordering (until recently) at a fairly quick pace for around a year and a half or so.

I've had mixed results in terms of the speed of my refs and my opponents and would say for all intents and purposes I am practically the definition of "middle of the road" in terms of PASBL career.

So if I use myself as a base, a year and a half to two years is about what most would take to get themselves so a Charizard. Which is kinda cray but eh...
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