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Old 11-27-2015, 02:45 PM   #76
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Meh I mean there's absolutely no animé evidence of it being Dark and it's literally just biting the opponent but Gamefreak has decided to make it Dark for like 15 years* now so we shold acknowledge it with STAB users.

I mean XX is a ridiculous concept that we should just kill off but I think Jeri and like two other people still like it so that won't happen.


*Ugh
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Old 11-27-2015, 03:05 PM   #77
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Meh. If you want to kill off XX, then make it normal like Scratch or Tackle, with the option of being Dark for STAB users.
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Old 11-30-2015, 05:58 PM   #78
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Also, bringing this to light:
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Pursuit (DK) -- The user becomes covered in a dark veil, and hits the user with a quick attack, which deals light physical damage and light dark damage. No matter what, the attack will always hit, which means that the user will always be able to follow the victim, gaining speed until it hits. The only way to shake the opponent is to hit it somehow, and hard enough to make it lose the concentration holding up the dark energy. In addition, the 'bubble' of dark energy also protects it from ALL psychic attacks, but provides no protection from anything else. The user of Pursuit will be able to go anywhere it could normally go, although once it hits the opponent, the user's shield fades, so be careful in using this move in certain situations. If the target is trying to be recalled and the attack is initiated, it will hit just as the target is turned into light and is in the process of returning to the ball. The surge of dark energy disrupts the 'pattern buffer' of the Pokéball's scan, and causes major damage to the victim.
Ignoring the obvious 'perfect accuracy bullshit', why is this attack part typeless and part Dark?

Proposition: Make it deal all Dark damage, instead of part Dark and part typeless.

Not saying nerf accuracy because fuck knows I'm not starting THAT debate again.
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Old 11-30-2015, 06:08 PM   #79
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I like how you highlight the lame non-issue and disregard the actual issues with Pursuit.

Namely that it is never-miss and that it makes you immune to Psychic.

Neither of these things should be the case.
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Old 11-30-2015, 06:21 PM   #80
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Meh, I didn't want to cause another giant shitstorm like what the skype TO descended into last time I brought that up.
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Old 11-30-2015, 11:26 PM   #81
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Ice Beam (IC) -- The user fires a slightly erratic beam (more like a lightning bolt) of ice energy that causes immediate freezing on the area of contact and deals significant damage. It has a 10% chance of completely freezing over the opponent in a large shell of ice.
I could've sworn I brought this up for changing earlier. But whatever. Change this to be in line with TBolt and Flamethrower with a 10% chance of freezing rather than auto-freeze and chance of ice block. Maybe make it higher if you want, to like 30 or something. idk I'm not big on percentages anyhow. I don't think people actually ref Ice Beam like this nowadays, and the effects kinda aren't in line with how we have defined freezing or how we beat "there is almost no such thing as full incapacitating ice block freeze" into newbie ref heads. So let's change it so newbies who haven't yet learned that some attack descripts are old and have wrongness in them or haven't yet learned enough about ASB to spot wrongness don't fuck it up. And by fuck it up I mean make a situation where there is major egg on Sneaze's face when he refs Ice Beam for some newbie who then asks why there was no freezing any why their A grade ref is disobeying the descript "because it's dumb and goddammit Kush".

In conclusion: This is totally Kush's fault.
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Old 11-30-2015, 11:55 PM   #82
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Honestly just make it so it causes light frosting for a chill effect and then bump the full freezing effect to a partial body freeze. Full body freezes should be reserved for soaking wet opponents in Blizzards and even then it shouldn't be that overly common.
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Old 12-01-2015, 04:01 PM   #83
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Aqua Tail: In-game power: 90

Aqua Tail (WA) -- The user wraps its tail in water energy, which it then uses to smash into the target. Damage dealt and accuracy is dependent on the user's tail but the average Pokémon will deal considerable damage. Aqua Tail uses considerable energy.


Poison Tail: In-game Power: 50 (+ increased crit and chance to poison)

Poison Tail (PO) -- The user's tail becomes covered in a venomous purple-coloured sheath, which it then uses to smash into the target. Damage and accuracy may vary based on the user's tail but the average Pokémon will deal good damage. Poison Tail uses good energy. It has a 10% chance to poison the target.


Iron Tail: In-game Power: 100 (and a 30% chance to lower Defense)

Iron Tail (ST) -- The user's tail becomes covered in a metallic silver-coloured hard shell, which it then uses to smash the opponent for good damage. Damage and accuracy may vary based on the user's tail. The metallic casing of the tail allows it to break through some energy-based attacks with greater ease and still retain its power.


Dragon Tail: In-game Power: 60 (and forces the foe out)

Dragon Tail (DR) --The user charges Dragon energy into its large tail, sweeping the foe off its feet and potentially sending it flying. The amount of damage done is dependent of the size of the user's tail, though the average Pokémon (with a tail approximating the size of a Slowking) will deal good damage.


The reason why I am lining these up this way is mainly to address Iron Tail. In-game the most powerful of the major Tail moves, here, it is tied for the weakest. While Poison Tail is slightly higher and Aqua Tail slightly lower than their in-game powers, the slightly variable power covers that a bit. But Iron Tail is a full four clicks under where it should be, of a type with few powerful moves. And it gets pretty much no unique features (as the steel shell is nearly standard for the type, and Aqua Tail in-game has no extra effects anyway). There's nerfing, and then there's forcefeeding it saltpeter.


Proposed changes:
Take Iron Tail up to Aqua Tail's power, maybe even significant (which is still weaker than it would be in-game), and, since we have been trying to make debuffs actual working things, give it the 30% chance to lower Defense.

Also, on Dragon Tail, fix this:
"though the average Pokémon (with a tail approximating the size of a Slowking)"
should probably be Slowking's, not Slowking. Since a tail the size of a Slowking is massive.
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Old 12-02-2015, 04:03 PM   #84
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I enjoy that it's now been long enough that all the things we wrote in a way that was good enough to be functional but close enough to the original terrible descriptions to get past ultra-conservative higher ups can be reviewed.


Agree with Sneezey on Ice Beam, that is a stupid description indeed.

Agree with Slash on Iron Tail and Dragon Tail. Although the "breaking through other attacks" thing should probably be removed from all Steel moves since Jeri invented it to boost Steel types when he thought they would be fucked over by Gen VI; they weren't, and now everyone complains about how Steel types are too good.
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Old 12-02-2015, 04:55 PM   #85
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Quote:
Although the "breaking through other attacks" thing should probably be removed from all Steel moves since Jeri invented it to boost Steel types when he thought they would be fucked over by Gen VI; they weren't, and now everyone complains about how Steel types are too good.
It was given to make Steels have a benefit of their STAB. Also I thought everyone complained about the Ghost type.
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Old 12-02-2015, 05:37 PM   #86
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We complain about a lot of types
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Old 12-02-2015, 08:21 PM   #87
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We complain about a lot
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Old 12-03-2015, 12:00 AM   #88
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The current full description or rule (if applicable), highlighting any problem areas

-Belch (PO) - The user lets out a strong burp, sending forth a massive bubble of toxic goo. The bubble then floats towards the foe, exploding on contact. Any Pokémon hit by the bubble will suffer major damage.

The issues with the move (in bullet points or short paragraphs)

The move is essentially just Gunk Shot without the poison chance. Not only is this hilariously boring, but a lot of Pokemon with Belch also have Gunk Shot and as such, there is very little reason to use this move outside of a few Pokemon who have it as their sole source of Poison typespam.

The proposed changes (please do not rewrite the moves yourself)

Belch's gimmick in-game is berries and obviously that is a very hard to handle gimmick in ASB. Hence, I have a few proposals that could be considered

-Token use. Have it consume a token and gain effects based on the token used. Obviously this creates the small issue of having to list effects on tokens so it could just be limited to type tokens and take it from there.
-Arena benefits. Like the other berry move we did. Give the ref a reasonable reign on what could happen in an arena like we do the other arena-based moves and leave it from there.
-Some potential nausea status effect i dunno I'm drawing inspiration from EB here.

I'd rather not leave this move being a totally lesser version of another move.
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Old 12-03-2015, 05:14 AM   #89
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Emi is wise.
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Old 12-03-2015, 05:58 PM   #90
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By arena benefits, do you mean something like how in-anime Secret Power seems to be, where different terrains can add different effects? Like, if it's earthy, some chance to slow, or if it's icy, it might chill?

Not too big on the token idea.

A nausea effect would be cool and interesting. Something like reduced concentration and enthusiasm, and throwing their footing off, that kind of thing?
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Old 12-03-2015, 06:20 PM   #91
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Yeah something along the lines of in-game Secret Power. Like I said, the idea would be to give the ref a reasonable reign on what might or might not be allowed (I mean we already do this for Nature Power and that's a much wackier move in comparison).

Nausea would be interesting too but it would have to be something fresh, new, and not useless so I'm less keen on that idea. What I was thinking of was lowered enthusiasm, since being nauseous as anyone knows is hell, a mild chance for some disruption, and being more off-balance although do we really need to punish physical more? I dunno I think thinking of Earthbound and it was late when I was writing that post lol.
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Old 12-03-2015, 07:47 PM   #92
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Nausea sounds fun to me; I think it could easily be given some kind of disorientation effect not unlike Psywave or Extrasensory, only instead of messing with them mentally it makes them feel physical sick/nauseous.
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Old 12-06-2015, 04:49 PM   #93
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>Ice Beam

So the anime is really stupid about how it treats Ice Beam in pretty much every way, shape and form, since it is effectively Freeze Ray. Obviously that's not super balanced and the current version is sort of a compromise, but I think it's fair to make it make more sense. So...

Ice Beam (IC) -- The user fires a slightly erratic beam (more like a lightning bolt) of ice energy that deals significant damage. Although it only freezes the average Pokémon locally and about 10% of the time, it is effective at freezing room temperature or cold surfaces and can create sheets of ice. Ice-typed Pokémon are also able to create more complex or solid crystalline structures.

And you also get the bonus Skitty Ice Pillar.

>Tail Moves

Iron Tail (ST) -- The user's tail becomes covered in a metallic silver-coloured hard shell, which it then uses to smash the opponent. Damage and accuracy can vary based on the user's tail, though on average it will deal considerable damage. The metallic casing of the tail allows it to break through some energy-based attacks with greater ease and still retain its power.

Dragon Tail (DR) -- The user charges Dragon energy into its large tail, sweeping the foe off its feet and potentially sending it flying. The amount of damage done is dependent of the size of the user's tail, though the average Pokémon will deal considerable damage.

>Belch

I like the idea of trying to diversify, but Belch isn't like the other Berry or Item dependent moves. Its entire existence is incredibly stupid and its in-game effect is pretty much the dumbest yet (not only item-dependent but you have to use the item before you can even use the move). I get the suggestions but it doesn't change based on the Berry you eat, it just is usable if you eat a Berry. It would be reaching to make it vary based on those factors. It's also not really thematic and if you're not accounting for other moves it doesn't make much sense.

The nausea effect is interesting, though. We could rip off Extrasensory.
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Old 12-06-2015, 05:14 PM   #94
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FYI Jeri, a good animé evidence for Ice Beam is Ash vs Paul, final round; Staraptor is hit by Gastrodon's Ice Beam and it is a carbon copy of Thunderbolt. No ice of any kind, just cyan electricity. But I like your version better.

Agree also on tail moves. For Belch, I'd advocate Emi's suggestion of making it arena and item dependent, justification along the lines of it's based on what the user can find to eat around it, but I'd also suggest that to differentiate it from other Poison moves in a way that isn't not-poisoning, perhaps we could do something like make it quicker to fire based on how healthy the Pokémon is (belch = satisfaction trope) or just saying that it's a wider angle than Gunk Shot, which is quite precise... Idk there's lots of ways. I almost see it like Poison type Eruption/Water Spout, although those moves could possible stand to be made a little better than their compatriots.
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Old 12-06-2015, 05:18 PM   #95
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The current version of Belch is written with the intent of it being AoE but it doesn't -really- come across that way. I'll think on that line a bit more.
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Old 12-06-2015, 05:25 PM   #96
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So while we're on the topic of little issues that need clarification...

Drill Run (GR) --The user covers its claws, beak or horn with a coating of Ground energy. They then charge the foe, spinning like a drill or causing their horn to spin, dealing considerable damage.

Drill Run has had the problem of "can it actually be used for digging?" brought up a few times from what I've seen, and sadly the answers have varied. It could use just a single line of clarification on that point. Also I'm at least 95% sure it's not supposed to be listed as Grass type.
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Old 12-06-2015, 05:28 PM   #97
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Sweet.

I don't think we need a serious attack overhaul any time soon, with the possible exception of a few support moves that are currently valueless, but I think that whenever we next do some we should look at whether it's worth including some of the following in descriptions:
  • Range
  • Wide/Narrow spread
  • Knockback
  • Charge time
  • Speed (once launched)

... as well as looking at whether there are any animé or in-game effects we can implement that we don't currently.

Just because Gamefreak is great at creating move after move that's basically just an orb of energy or a stream of fire/water/electricity or a glowing punch/tackle/bite and it's really hard to differentiate between stuff like Hydro Cannon and Hydro Pump and Water Spout... it would be great if Hydro Cannon, say, was so powerful it stunned the target, or if Hydro Pump pushed targets backwards... yada yada. Some of this shoudl be ref's discretion.
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Old 12-14-2015, 02:12 AM   #98
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I liked the changes way back when that added in special effects to low-power moves to make them somewhat more worth using. While I'm not opposed to doing the same when it came to high-power moves, I haven't really noticed any tendencies to abuse the changes to, say, Bubble. Randomly adding power to moves that already do a lot of damage might not be the best idea, even if those moves don't get used much.

Also:

I would really like to see exhaustion work a little more intuitively. Sometimes my matches feel a little bit like the pokemon are throwing themselves at each other, then start panting heavily and lying around trying to get their breath back, then getting up and doing it again. While my morning lifts might not be the same thing as ejecting massive quantities of water forcefully from my mouth, I think perhaps both the concept of exhaustion and the current "general rules" of exhaustion could bear some looking into.

Alternately I could be a shitty battler who can't manage energy...but, at the risk of going full Math!ASB, I think it might be nice to at least have a way of more accurately tracking how exhausted my pokemon is going to be based on the moves it uses, instead of just winging it and tossing in annoyed one-movers here and there.
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Old 12-20-2015, 03:52 PM   #99
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Heat Wave (FI) -- The user spends a lot of fire energy to shoot out a large blast of superheated air mixed with tiny flames towards its opponent(s). Damage done is in between Flamethrower and Fire Blast (heavy damage), but there isn't nearly as much of a chance for burning than either of those moves.

Can we just go ahead and make this say "heavy damage for heavy energy" and either say it has a 10% chance to burn or say it doesn't?
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Old 12-20-2015, 04:27 PM   #100
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It also breaks all screens.
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