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Old 04-02-2016, 10:07 AM   #376
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Alright kids reel it in.
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Old 04-02-2016, 10:13 AM   #377
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As I say, Imprison is not causing any problems. It doesnt need changing. But if we were to change it, my suggestion would be better than the status quo and, in many but not all situations, better than Spite. I don't think it would be OP but others may disagree on this.
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Old 04-02-2016, 10:18 AM   #378
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No Imprison is "fine". Just because you don't believe so doesn't make it not true.

There aren't many situations (read: where a match-up is hopeless) where I'd use Imprison over Spite. That generally is not a good way to go. If it blocked STAB moves it would be a lot better and have more of an actual niche.
I think if you want to include stab, then I would be highly worried on how that would affect a long term match. Let's say I have been conservative with my health, and did decent enough to have a pokemon at half but with no offtype. Klefki can come in and block off normal stab as a example. If you wasted both fire and ground, which are very common offtypes to use, Klefki now has a field day. Pray that you have fighting/electric/ghost/steel/water left. With that said, the trainer who did an awesome set up, now is penalized by an op move. We lost objective and observable levels of skills, and we replace it with a heavily reliant niche move running its course amok.

Similar circumstances for Bronzong if it manages to use imprison on normal stab.
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Old 04-02-2016, 10:27 AM   #379
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Yeah Kush I think we've pretty much agreed that Imprison doesn't need to be changed.
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Old 04-02-2016, 10:41 AM   #380
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Yeah. It is very situational and pretty crap imo but meh.
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Old 04-02-2016, 10:42 AM   #381
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Yeah, my initial proposition to remove XX is still valid. It is a clause that needs to fade out.
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Old 04-02-2016, 10:46 AM   #382
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I pointed out before how it really doesn't change anything and is really nitpicky. We should in general be trying to avoid making nitpicky changes as they are a waste of everyone's time and don't really do any good.

also i disagree with kush but meh
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Old 04-02-2016, 10:57 AM   #383
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I pointed out before how it really doesn't change anything and is really nitpicky. We should in general be trying to avoid making nitpicky changes as they are a waste of everyone's time and don't really do any good.

also i disagree with kush but meh
My only rebuttal to that is that I disagree with it being nitpicky. If something is fundamentally off with the current meta, it should be noted, brought up, and possibly changed to remove the inefficiency, ambiguity, or superfluous effect. Otherwise, it is no better to point that eliminating light fire energy from Scald is equally as nitpicky and can remain the same without impacting the meta in a strong matter. Why? Under 6/9, pokemon can still fall in 3-5 rounds, so three uses of scald if you give good fire energy offtype is not a bad trade off for burn. It is counterproductive, and probably a relic of when the move was written, but that does not change the current stance is that it is not needed. These small nuances are counter-productive, and yet if left alone are not game breaking all the same. Unless you have an objective reason, please present a better proposal than "leaving" it alone for the sake of it not being a bother to remember the small, yet important and relevant change.
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Old 04-02-2016, 11:07 AM   #384
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How is it important and relevant though? There are pretty much no XX moves you'll ever want to Imprison in an actual match. It creates hardly any benefit to change the move in such a way and there is sound logic for why it is the way it is. You're better off just trying to justify getting rid of XX period.
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Old 04-02-2016, 11:11 AM   #385
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How is it important and relevant though? There are pretty much no XX moves you'll ever want to Imprison in an actual match. It creates hardly any benefit to change the move in such a way and there is sound logic for why it is the way it is. You're better off just trying to justify getting rid of XX period.
Imprison + Roost is a combination that Swoobat learns. I find it justifiable enough that if we give Swoobat the ability to block health regain for a very well distributed move, in some cases their only heal move, then it is worth eliminating the clause which feels and is out of place. I'm not personally saying that I would do Imprison + Body Slam Smeargle, but if the need arises, the elimination of impending paralysis is not something to brush off. We killed off glow for ghosts, so it is only fair we kill it off everywhere it pops up. It doesn't stand to reason anymore.

I have tried to justify the elimination of XX, and so has Kush. Jeri does not want that and he finds it useful in very specific situations where steel types are resistant to XX.
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Old 04-02-2016, 11:14 AM   #386
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Yeah fixing moves literally for two pokemon isn't a thing you should be doing unless you think that ASB is in a much better state than it is.
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Old 04-02-2016, 11:19 AM   #387
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Yeah fixing moves literally for two pokemon isn't a thing you should be doing unless you think that ASB is in a much better state than it is.
I see where you are coming from. That thought process holds back the game from a point of view of efficiency. Gen VII is rolling around soon enough. My outlook and point of view is to have all moves express their maximum potential. That is not translatable or interchangeable with broken either. My proposed change is just the deletion of a sentence that is outdated and out of touch with the current condition of the game. It might not add in your point of view anything worthwhile in the short run, but I can see a down the road being a fix that will eliminate future ambiguities as the game continues to grow.

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Old 04-02-2016, 02:17 PM   #388
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Why don't we make Imprison like Kush's but able to block STAB/XX to a certain degree, say everything over significant energy or something? I agree that it sort of needs to block STAB, but equally being able to completely dick something's STAB is not where the move should be headed imo.

Also can we get rid of Shadow Ball's splash damage clause please? It's old and pointless, and makes Ghost especially poor offensively, given their main significant-level move is capable of hurting themselves. Especially when Ghost doesn't really have anything stronger than Shadow Ball that most mons can access.
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Old 04-02-2016, 02:22 PM   #389
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I mean, being able to block STAB / NO isn't that big of a deal. DT made a big thing about it but if it makes Klefki moderately useful that's a good thing and Bronzong would like something that makes it likable over Metagross. I mean, Claydol can dick anything without the ability to hit underground mon but we haven't removed its niche yet.
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Old 04-02-2016, 02:28 PM   #390
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You could also just make it so a Pokemon isn't affected by its own shadow ball's splash damage.
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Old 04-02-2016, 02:29 PM   #391
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Yes but I still feel like being able to completely block all access to a STAB is really not ok. Ghost in particular comes to mind, what with most ghosties having all the diversity in their movepool of a Donald Trump rally.
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Old 04-02-2016, 02:32 PM   #392
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I mean, being able to block STAB / NO isn't that big of a deal. DT made a big thing about it but if it makes Klefki moderately useful that's a good thing and Bronzong would like something that makes it likable over Metagross. I mean, Claydol can dick anything without the ability to hit underground mon but we haven't removed its niche yet.
This is all good and fine until you remember that objectively fantastic mon like Gardevoir, Muk, Dusknoir, and Mismagius get Imprison too. I'm not entirely against blocking STAB / NO but let's not pretend that making Imprison amazing will make bad Pokemon good while not making great Pokemon ridiculous.

Edit: >Shadow Ball Splash Damage
On the contrary, I think that more moves should work similarly to this. Shadow Ball and Energy Ball already do, and I think it's a cool mechanic that would be nice to expand to things like Water Pulse, Flash Cannon, Zap Cannon, Electro Ball, etc. (just spitballing moves it could work for. You get the picture.) If you get creative with the effect, it could probably function like a widespread move in many ways. Overall, I think the splash damage mechanic adds another interesting and worthwhile aspect to battling when you use those moves.
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Old 04-02-2016, 02:38 PM   #393
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This is all good and fine until you remember that objectively fantastic mon like Gardevoir, Muk, Dusknoir, and Mismagius get Imprison too. I'm not entirely against blocking STAB / NO but let's not pretend that making Imprison amazing will make bad Pokemon good while not making great Pokemon ridiculous.
In defense of that idea, Gardevoir has plenty of neutral types to be hit with, and if you are blocking it off a normal type, then you probably have the options still left. If you are blocking NO, then XX is left unaltered which steel types are resistant to. Muk, Dusknoir, and Mismagius are also hit neutrally by a bunch of types, which is why I did not cite them.
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Old 04-02-2016, 02:42 PM   #394
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Just because you can hit something neutrally doesn't mean Gardevoir being able to block Arbok from using Poison moves is less ridiculous. Same goes for Mismagius blocking Malamar from Dark moves, etc.
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Old 04-02-2016, 02:49 PM   #395
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Just because you can hit something neutrally doesn't mean Gardevoir being able to block Arbok from using Poison moves is less ridiculous. Same goes for Mismagius blocking Malamar from Dark moves, etc.
It is not that ridiculous when you consider that my example illustrates an unwinnable circumstance where you have no options for neutral, to then presenting your example, which is a circumstance where you have blocked off super effective damage. Arbok retains Sucker Punch to stall out turns, retains Iron Tail as a form of offtype, and retains disruptive moves. Considering that Arbok should be worried by psychics, HP Ghost works in tandem with Spite, giving it enough for two uses of SE. There you have the chance to attack potentially 4 times for SE, and still retaining a bunch of neutral options.

If we consider Kush's route, Stab should only be blocked off for a max of two rounds, while all other types should be blocked off three rounds for the sake of balance. I personally feel that stab/normal/xx should in no way be affected.
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Old 04-02-2016, 02:50 PM   #396
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Also, Imprison can really flip a good few matchups on their heads, especially given the Psychic access to it and the movepuddles of most Ghosts. Sealing off their STAB completely bones the Ghost.
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Old 04-02-2016, 02:57 PM   #397
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Just because you can hit something neutrally doesn't mean Gardevoir being able to block Arbok from using Poison moves is less ridiculous. Same goes for Mismagius blocking Malamar from Dark moves, etc.
The latter already pretty much happens its why you don't use malamar to fight Ghosts.
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Old 04-02-2016, 03:01 PM   #398
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Okay. Zoroark vs Dusknoir.

Nitpicking the example mon doesn't make the point less valid.
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Old 04-02-2016, 03:02 PM   #399
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Oooookay this discussion has crumbled completely at this point. Moratorium on Imprison discussion for the time being.
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Old 04-04-2016, 10:53 AM   #400
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Freeze-Dry (IC) - The user breathes out extremely cold air which surrounds the foe, rapidly chilling them and dealing solid damage, possibly causing localized freezing. Ice types use this move to its full potential, the rapid freezing the rapid freezing making it extremely effective against Pokémon who hold a significant amount of moisture and thus super effective against Water types.

Found a typo.
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