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Old 02-07-2016, 03:45 PM   #251
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Shadow Ball (GH) -- The user charges up and fires a ball of significant Ghost energy at the opponent. Upon striking the foe, the ball bursts, letting out a ghostly wind that deals significant damage to those around it. This move has a 10% chance to slightly lower the foe's special defense stat for a few rounds.
Ok, I'mma bring this up real quick. Shadow Ball with the wind and splash damage makes zero to negative sense, and if anything is actually a hindrance to Ghosts because it means their most reliable STAB can end up hurting them if the opponent orders something like 'lol move close to it and let it chew on its own splash damage'. Can we just make it a standard energy projectile please?
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Old 02-07-2016, 04:14 PM   #252
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Or, you could learn how to positioning.

EDIT: Okay, so. I personally really like the wind because is gives it more use in Doubles (being able to his two grouped foes for full damage each, etc), and I do think the splashback does encourage more intelligent play, I can honestly see your point, as there are just very few Ghost STAB options that don't suck. So, while I prefer it not get changed, I won't get angry if it does. But if it does, we should change Energy Ball, too, since it has that same thing. And at least it's not the old days where your foe could use a Psychic move to pop a Shadow Ball in your face as you're charging it.

Clearly, the answer is to bring back FCSB.
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Old 02-07-2016, 08:21 PM   #253
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The current full description or rule (if applicable), highlighting any problem areas

Substitute (NO) -- The user creates a copy of itself. Its trainer first specifies a power level between good and extreme (the default level is significant) and the user sacrifices that amount of health and 1.25x that amount of energy to form the copy. The copy will have the amount of health sacrificed to create it and will fade once this is depleted. Upon creating the copy, the user tricks opponents in to focusing on it and prevents them from deliberately targeting their true location under any circumstances. The user will move around to avoid attacks automatically, though indirect or arena wide damage such as Hail or Earthquake may still affect both the copy and the user. The copy is immune to all status conditions. Maintaining the copy costs no energy but sustained usage will cause the user to become fatigued at a faster rate than normal.

The issues with the move (in bullet points or short paragraphs)
-Could use some streamlining and basic clarification

The proposed changes (please do not rewrite the moves yourself)
-Who is the one attacking?
-Bring back the mind link; you wouldn't want an efficient good sub to be tossed up against a hurricane. That basically charges fast enough and uses much less energy than a protect would. It is suppose to have benefits, but not that many as it could potentially block both defensive and offensive techniques in one go so the mental link was a sensible way to balance it just bit.

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Old!Substitute (NO) -- The user creates a copy of itself, which takes the place of the user. This body double will suffer the brunt of any attacks an opponent makes until it falls apart, since Substitute also allows the user to mentally implant a misperception in all opponents that the Substitute is the actual pokémon it was built by. The opposing trainer cannot successfully order their pokémon to hit the real" pokémon because their pokémon has a mental block against realising that Substitute has been used. While the user of Substitute is not immune to harm, affected pokémon can only harm the user by sheer accident, since they cannot deliberately aim at it. However, nonintelligent sources of damage, such as arena damage and effects that cover the entire arena (no normal attack covers the whole arena) will hit both the user and the Substitute at full damage if the user and Sub are in the affected area. The substitute performs all of the attacks as a normal Pokémon would. The user will move around to avoid all attacks, not needing to be ordered separately. However, when the substitute is ordered to attack, the user must fully concentrate on the transfer of orders. If the user is asleep, the Substitute will also be asleep, thanks to that same mind link. When Substitute is ordered, an amount of health between an FC and QC Hyper Beam, is specified (if none is specified, the equivalent of an MC Hyper Beam is the standard). The user will then sacrifice that amount of health to create the Substitute along with x1.5 the energy of the amount of health sacrificed. This Substitute will have the amount of health sacrificed to create it, but will take energy directly from the user. Though the Sub will not reflect the energy exhaustion that a normal pokémon would, it will cause the user to become increasingly exhausted. Once the Substitute runs out of health or the user becomes too tired to maintain the mental link (extreme moves or multiple, high energy moves without rest will often cause this), the Substitute will fade.
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Old 02-09-2016, 07:00 PM   #254
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Alright, let's talk about Substitute.

So Sub has always been sort of a problem. It's never really been very useful and the anime has been absolutely no help since it basically just shows "LOOK TWO OF THE SAME". For some reason, we've always felt compelled to make it work like the games when it's pretty clear there's no real reason to do it that way. The version Kush wrote for us is a step in the right direction, but it also makes it so Sub is not useful for another reason.

So I have a few proposals for you all:

1) We go back to Classic!Substitute. I don't particularly care for this but it would be an option and we might be able to make it a bit better.

Advantages: This Sub is flexible and potentially more durable. It brings back the mental link and prevents status. It's also probably the most balanced option, though not for the best reason.

Disadvantages: It's not super useful. It's also pretty taxing require sacrificing a pretty big amount of health. Also the scaling is pretty much never used.

2) A modified version of the current description, reintroducing some of the features of Classic!Sub.

Advantages: Proper status immunity, pulls focus off the user, also scaleable. Much less complicated than Classic!Sub. More useful, most likely, and relatively balanced.

Disadvantages: No mental link makes attacking awkward and sort of undermines the potential for durability.

3) A new version that ditches the game-like features for something more anime-like.

Substitute (NO) -- The user creates an exact copy of itself. The copy will either occpy the space that it was last in or the Pokémon can be ordered to move in a direction after being created (though it will stop after about half a round of unidirectional movement). The Pokémon will immediately move away from its current position when the Substitute is created, often appearing to "teleport" away, but not able to be more than about 10 feet from its original location while the Substitute is active. Typically, this will allow the user to evade an incoming attack, and the Substitute will take the brunt of the attack. The user will sacrifice considerable health as well as considerable energy to create the Substitute, which can take considerable damage before fading. Although the user will not be hidden by the Substitute, the foe will generally focus on the Substitute until it breaks, using attacks on the Substitute until its attention is drawn back to the foe, usually if attacked by the user. The Substitute itself will not be able to perform moves and will generally stand in place but will not be distinguishable from the user or affected by status or other effects. Repeated uses of this move will cause its energy to increase slightly with each use.
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Old 02-09-2016, 07:10 PM   #255
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I don't like the third version: it feels much too complicated and also not very useful in context. If you made it variable health and energy, I feel that would help things, but its still odd. Also its very much like Attract: completely useless once the user does anything.

I feel we should keep a variable scaling between decent and significant. Bumping it up all the way to Extreme is pretty much useless since it requires so much energy and health its almost never worth it. Significant is the "high-end" of the scale. Make it so the Substitute attacks because of a mental link, however it will still stop status. Decent energy Substitutes would be notably faster than other moves, to make it a viable going second option against status. Repeated uses would require slightly more energy to use, keep the 1x health, 1.25x energy.
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Old 02-09-2016, 07:11 PM   #256
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My main problem with this new one is that it's still a huge resource drain. In very few cases would it be better than Protect or Safeguard. Safeguard in particular costs less, can easily block more damage, shunts, and doesn't lose you any health.

I'd recommend doing a Substitute as a cast from health move. No energy cost, just health. Still affected by exhaustion, still contributes to short-term exhaustion, but transmutes the energy cost to health.
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Old 02-09-2016, 07:38 PM   #257
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Imo, scaling has worked in the past under very niche situations. I have seen maybe in one occasion when someone used a full charge sub and it last two attacks. Maybe correlate that the more health the sub has the harder it is for the opponent to figure out it is a fake?

Last edited by Aposteriori; 02-09-2016 at 07:46 PM.
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Old 02-09-2016, 07:54 PM   #258
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> I'd recommend doing a Substitute as a cast from health move. No energy cost, just health. Still affected by exhaustion, still contributes to short-term exhaustion, but transmutes the energy cost to health.

I considered this but I'd rather lower the energy than get rid of it and expect people to understand that it contributes meaningfully to exhaustion.

I really think that the Mental Link is actually a bad idea, or at least not as good an idea as you think it is. The only real use for Mental Link Substitute is to eat two big attacks and keep attacking, but I really think it's a pretty confined niche. As it stands, Substitute is barely used and in the cases where it is, it's maybe only a slightly better option than Protect.

We're all really stuck on Game!Substitute when pretty much all non-game media wants Substitute to be a one-move dodge that allows you to trick the foe into thinking you're somewhere you're not and get you out of potentially bad situations.

Here's what I'm going for: a Substitute that takes the pressure off the user, allowing a health punching bag to take a few hits for it while it gains better ground or gets in a surprise attack. I'd be willing to make it be relatively healthy or potentially increase the scaling (though I'd rather move away from that) to allow it to sponge big attacks, but I really don't think that the Fighting Puppet is really a useful thing. This, on the other hand, is useful, as the Sub acts as a distraction while the user is able to attack.
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Old 02-09-2016, 08:05 PM   #259
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We're all really stuck on Game!Substitute when pretty much all non-game media wants Substitute to be a one-move dodge that allows you to trick the foe into thinking you're somewhere you're not and get you out of potentially bad situations.
This is basically what the move does right now. I don't really see the issue, and Sub is pretty often seen. Mental Link sub also really punishes status use going first: its why QC Sub has been the sub of use for a real long time now and why the higher health scalings are almost never used, because it takes too long to make and has little benefit. It doesn't need to sponge big attacks, that was never really Substitute's purpose (although you can do that for really high powered moves like Blizzard or Thunder).
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Old 02-09-2016, 08:14 PM   #260
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I personally like option 2.
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Old 02-09-2016, 08:27 PM   #261
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I don't think you really get what I'm trying to get at here. Let me try to explain differently.

What is the purpose of Substitute in Comp? It's not to sit and sponge damage or absorb an attack - at least that's not it's primary purpose. What you're after when you use Substitute is the ability to keep your opponent at bay for a turn so you can strike back with an attack of your own without worrying about the foe crippling you. A lot of classic sets that revolve around Substitute (SubPunch is pretty much the epitome of this) are ultimately offensive sets. Even though it's a defensive move it has a very offensively-minded application whose net result is the foe losing more health than you do.

As it stands right now, Substitute is pretty defensively oriented. People use it to prevent statuses and occasionally to sponge damage. The old Mental Link version just makes it a wall you put between you and your foe to grant you some defensive benefits. Kush's version is an improvement, but you don't really find yourself in a better position and it's worded in a way that discourages retaliation. It doesn't really promote offense; it just makes it so you are less likely to be crippled defensively or to lose less health.

This version of Sub, however, is written with offense in mind. It's a lot lighter weight and allows you an additional mobility option. Now, not only do you gain defensive benefits, but a momentary upper hand where you are free to strike unfettered. By sacrificing some health, you've left your opponent wide open for an attack.

With the Mental Link Sub, all you get is a degree of separation for your Pokémon, but all of the attacking has to be done in the same context as before, making it if anything no offensive gain. Kush's iteration of Sub is close to this, but still really defensively minded and in fact discourages attacking since your Sub instantly becomes useless if you do and you give up your evasive bonus.

This version of Substitute is much sleeker, gives you similar benefits as before, but also gives you the opportunity to put yourself in a much better offensive position by sacrificing some of the guarantees that either old version presents. It's pretty similar to Kush's version, I'll admit, but I really think that the specific language about changing positions makes it a more useful move. As it stands, there's not really a lot of reason to use Substitute over Protect. You can block status just as well or better with Protect. This would give Substitute a context in which it would be more useful than Protect, as you can sacrifice a little of your own health to take away a big chunk of your foe's.
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Old 02-09-2016, 08:30 PM   #262
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can detect see through the sub 3.0?
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Old 02-09-2016, 08:32 PM   #263
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If you're using Sub when someone is using or is able to respond with Detect you are missing the point of the move.

But yes, it would, because Detect can explicitly see through Substitute.
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Old 02-09-2016, 08:40 PM   #264
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Detect (NO) -- The user uses good energy to intensely focus on their foes' location. With the user's complete focus fixed on their location(s), this allows them to react much faster and allows them to dodge the foes' attacks. While Detect is active, the Pokémon may not use any other techniques, lest they break their concentration. Because the user is focused entirely on their foe(s), they will be less able to dodge attacks or dangers from the environment. Any direct damage will break their focus and Detect will end. Detect may also be used to detect the location of a foe, due to invisibility, low visibility, or hiding. They may also use the attack to see through a Substitute, though the actions performed by the Substitute will be harder to dodge. Multiple uses of Detect within approximately a minute will cause each subsequent use to be significantly less effective.

I asked because if the sub no longer attacks, Detect needs to be ratified to reflect this.
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Old 02-09-2016, 08:41 PM   #265
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Sorry I'm not clear on why the current version is bad, awkward or not useful? Or why we would try to make Substitute something other than a longer term defence which is what it is supposed to be? By which I do mean long enough to Sub Punch (or whatever move) but not sponge damage in most instances).

Last edited by Mercutio; 02-09-2016 at 08:49 PM.
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Old 02-09-2016, 08:50 PM   #266
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Because purely defensive substitute is pretty much always a bad option and this version of Substitute more explicitly puts you in a better position.
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Old 02-09-2016, 09:33 PM   #267
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So... is there a reason we don't just go crappy!NarutoShadowClone with this? I mean really? The attack is incredibly useless as a solely defensive technique, and if we allow it to be an actual body double that can attack in tandem while pulling from the user's energy it both gives an actual reason to be sacrificing health AND energy to use it in the first place and also opens up some rather interesting play tactics with this new technique. We wouldn't need to have the unneeded forced focus on the Sub so long as it isn't made blatantly obvious in the first round or so which one is the real one (and if you're making it blatantly obvious you'd be doing it wrong), since Subs nowadays are lucky to even last that long. The mental link could very easily be a one way path if we want the Sub to be mobile - from the user to the Sub only to explain the ability for it to perform actions, and this could also make it so it wouldn't be able to do anything extremely complex without requiring a rather large amount of focus.

Also, side note, I've never been a fan of the Sub itself being unaffected by status in any way. If we do implement any form where it's able to move, it should be statusable and just not have the status transfer over to the real 'mon. I mean just because the game does something a certain way doesn't mean that's the legitimate only way to interpret it.
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Old 02-09-2016, 10:13 PM   #268
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I guess? I don't know I have seen Sub be used well quite a lot recently.

The simple answer is just to make it a wearable (hell even dropable) shield that magically tricks the foe. No mental link because that's dumb. No double damage vs EQ or Surf because that's dumb. You make it a defence against status of all kinds plus stuff like Infestation and Fire Spin and you literally just say that such moves consume the sub not the user. There is no need to explain this using teleportation or "the user auto dodges of its own accord while the sub uses the move". It's pokemon. You say it withstands X damage, X hits regardless of power, or X time (whichever) and it becomes a good way to set up stuff like FP or boosts.

The problem with Sub is overcomplication and making the user not do the attacking. That's it.
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Old 02-09-2016, 10:20 PM   #269
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Jeri your 3) would work fine but it's twice as long and complex as it needs to be. Scrub exact distance. But I really don't think this has any functional difference from the current which can be used to sub punch or boost or whatever else.
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Old 02-10-2016, 03:29 AM   #270
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If we return the mental link, could we include a clause somewhere that pokemon that have a harder time flinching can hold a better sub focus? aka psychics, and whatever individual pokemon holds that specific buff.
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Old 02-10-2016, 03:45 AM   #271
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The current full description or rule (if applicable), highlighting any problem areas
Pound (XX) -- The user punches the opponent, causing moderate damage.

The issues with the move (in bullet points or short paragraphs)
-Small clarification

The proposed changes (please do not rewrite the moves yourself)
-In the anime, Treeko uses Pound with its tail. Groovyle is shown to use its head leaf. Could this be clarified that the punch can come from different appendages other than their fists?
-Second bid: anime shows a white glow, NO please
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Old 02-10-2016, 12:39 PM   #272
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Jeri's number 3 doesn't take into account how Sub is actually used. Considerable health and energy is still more than decent health and solid energy, by a good amount too. No one is going to be willing to extend that amount of investment when the move can simply be broken by anything of considerable / significant power, which are the most commonly used moves by a long shot. It's no more offensive than the current version either, since, once again, attacking totally breaks the illusion and gives absolutely no reason for the opponent to attack the Sub anymore. In a bad situation, you could be left with a totally intact Sub that isn't going to fool your opponent, and that's superbly dead weight. Not to mention that it can't be used going second effectively because its not going to outspeed any status move we currently have. It's just not very good, or usuable.

Quote:
What is the purpose of Substitute in Comp? It's not to sit and sponge damage or absorb an attack - at least that's not it's primary purpose. What you're after when you use Substitute is the ability to keep your opponent at bay for a turn so you can strike back with an attack of your own without worrying about the foe crippling you. A lot of classic sets that revolve around Substitute (SubPunch is pretty much the epitome of this) are ultimately offensive sets. Even though it's a defensive move it has a very offensively-minded application whose net result is the foe losing more health than you do.


Yes, and no. Sub's use in comp can't quite be extrapolated here, because switching is far less common in ASB than it is in comp. Subs in comp are usually meant to do a few things:
-Punish switches
-Defend against overly defensive playstyles by blocking status and tanking the weaker moves (SubDD Gyarados immediately comes to mind here as doing this, but there are others, such as Speedboost!Berry SD Terrakion)

That's mainly it. You don't typically throw up a Sub against, for instance, Terrakion, because chances are its going to break every single time you do it. It's not meant to keep strong attacks at bay typically. There have been some exceptions to this: SubToxic Gliscor and Aegislash come to mind, but they were ultimately defensive Pokemon who used Sub not only to evade status but through a combination of typing, speed, or bulk wear down opponents.

Subs can do similar now: If your opponent orders, say, Will-o-Wisp and Hex, you can throw up a Substitute and protect against both attacks, and currently, you can do it for less health and energy needed than option 3. It's why I realized about a week after we changed it that we accidentally made Will-o-Wisp much worse when we rewrote it, because making it do decent damage ended up making it totally useless as a pressure move going first, which was quite frankly its main niche. You could throw up a QC Sub, block the Wisp, and block the next attack, whatever it might be. One move could throw off an entire round, and potentially two. Which is very close to what sub is supposed to be doing.

In addition, even if people weren't using Substitute as much as we might think, that doesn't mean its not good. How many people used Grudge before I used it and a week later it was rewritten to be nerfed? :p I don't remember anyone using the move before I did, and that's with four years of experience under my belt. Same with Imprison before I used it against Connor and Machamp.

In summary, Sub is doing much of what its supposed to be doing already. You could lower the investment needed, and that would be fair and probably worthwhile, but the #3 option is a huge nerf for the move that does little for it. Something closest to option #2 would be best, but it makes little difference in reality whether the Sub attacks or the user attacks. Outside of some situations with Rock Tomb that is.
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Old 02-10-2016, 05:14 PM   #273
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Side Bar 2.0:

The current full description or rule (if applicable), highlighting any problem areas

Muddy Water (GD/WT) -- The user shoots out a very powerful, but dirty, stream of water, which does considerable damage and might lower the opponent(s) accuracy if it hits in their eyes. Since it uses half Ground and Water energy, its type-effectiveness is slightly different, dealing super effective hits to Poison, Steel, Ground, Electric, Rock and Fire types, while being resisted by Water, Dragon, Grass and Bug types. The damage from Muddy Water will never be doubly effective or doubly ineffective against a single-typed Pokémon.

Sludge Wave (PO/WA) --The user issues a huge watery wave of toxic sludge, washing over the foe for significant damage. The large size of the wave allows it to hit multiple targets at once. This attack has a 10% chance of poisoning. Since it uses half Poison and half Water energy, its type-effectiveness is slightly different, dealing super effective hits to Fire and Fairy, while being resisted by Dragon, Ghost, Poison and Water. Steel types are considered resistant in the same way they resist moves such as Sludge Bomb. The damage from Sludge Wave will never be doubly effective or doubly ineffective against a single-typed Pokémon.

Flying Press (FT/FL) - The user leaps into the air, coming down on top of the target with its full weight, dealing considerable damage. Since this move is half Flying and half Fighting, its type-effectiveness is slightly different, dealing super effective damage to Normal, Fighting, Ice, Dark and Grass Pokeémon and resisted damage to Electric, Flying, Poison, Psychic and Fairy Pokeémon. The damage from Flying Press will never be doubly effective or doubly ineffective against a single-typed Pokeémon.

Dragon Rage (Various) -- The user summons a powerful attack which is dependent on the arena. If there is water present between the two Pokeémon, the user summons a spiral of energy, which is quickly sent at the opponent, sucking up the water in the arena to deal significant Water-typed damage for significant energy. If there isn't water, it's a large fireball which deals heavy damage in a mix of dragon and fire energy, dealing Super Effective damage on Bug, Grass and Ice-types and Not Very Effective damage on Fire and Fairy types. The fireball may be used in an aqueous environment, but the water version is arena-dependent.

The issues with the move (in bullet points or short paragraphs)

1)Potential for offtype abuse. There is a chance for some pokemon to use these moves 4 times.

2)Flying Press and Dragon Rage has a couple of typos with the word "Pokeémon"

3)The wording of Dragon Rage poses an ambiguity issue that I'm trying to get clarified.

The proposed changes (please do not rewrite the moves yourself)

1)Reword the bolded part to match what flying press says of "Since this move is" vs "since it uses half ___ and half ___ energy" whilst adding a clause that explicitly states full and equal amounts of both off-type are used. This will allow the pokemon 2 standard uses vs 4.

2)Fix the typo

3)Wording should coincide with the other dual typed moves.

Last edited by Aposteriori; 02-10-2016 at 05:25 PM.
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Old 02-10-2016, 06:01 PM   #274
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Okay clearly I am out of touch on this particular move and have talked myself in circles anyway.

Forget it ever happened!
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Old 02-10-2016, 06:58 PM   #275
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Okay clearly I am out of touch on this particular move and have talked myself in circles anyway.

Forget it ever happened!
Back to my original proposition; can we still get clarification as to who attacks?
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