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Old 09-03-2015, 10:10 AM   #101
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Old 09-03-2015, 10:17 AM   #102
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So will I. But with all the best will in the world, Dave is slow, Jeri is (usually) slow, Concept is slow. Maybe they should not all be involved. I'm am arsehole so possible me neither haha.

We did previously come up with this idea (sort of) though. We were going to battle, regular orders/reffings, and all participants basically kept a diary and wrote down exactly what their thought process was each round. So "This round I am using Hypnosis so that next round I can do [beneficial thing]", "I don't want to be hit by that super effective move so I'm ordering [defensive technique] this round - not [other defensive technique] for reasons", or "I am reffing this failing because Kush is bad and should feel bad".
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Old 09-03-2015, 10:33 AM   #103
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Yeah this is exactly how I would be expecting it to be done. Each individual takes note of why they do what they do in the battle, while the referee details any judgement calls and explains why they made the round go the way they did. It'll be a commitment and will feel like a chore sometimes but it will provide not only a spectacle for people to tune into but also something worthwhile with regards to both battling and refereeing literature.

Organise this between us and get it kick started by the weekend?
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Old 09-03-2015, 10:34 AM   #104
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I agree that diversifying the pool of things to ref would be a good thing. I've always enjoyed reffing, but it does get kinda stale after a while. Doubles helps a little, but not much to be fair. I honestly can't think of anything besides Contests that could be consistently available to change it up a bit.

As for motivation, from personal experience the sole reason I don't ref anymore is time. I've just got tons of stuff I want to do in my free time, and usually can only choose a few of them to actually do, so reffing just fell by the wayside. It might just be because I'm less of a pushover / have thicker skin than other refs, but criticism between refs and battlers has never really been a put off to me. I mean, if someone's exceptionally rude I might be like "fuck this nub" for a week, but I usually get over it once the round's had some time to pass.
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Old 09-03-2015, 10:36 AM   #105
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With regards to Contest consistency, I intend to have them be at the very minimum three times a year if this current one proves successful.
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Old 09-03-2015, 10:52 AM   #106
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Old 09-03-2015, 10:56 AM   #107
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Hey, if we could make it work, people would jump on it.
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Old 09-03-2015, 11:07 AM   #108
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Yes. I would have to learn what it actually entails.
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Old 09-03-2015, 11:29 AM   #109
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Quote:
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Yeah this is exactly how I would be expecting it to be done. Each individual takes note of why they do what they do in the battle, while the referee details any judgement calls and explains why they made the round go the way they did. It'll be a commitment and will feel like a chore sometimes but it will provide not only a spectacle for people to tune into but also something worthwhile with regards to both battling and refereeing literature.

Organise this between us and get it kick started by the weekend?
Well this sounds fun
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Old 09-03-2015, 12:09 PM   #110
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Hey, if we could make it work, people would jump on it.
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Old 09-03-2015, 03:35 PM   #111
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>Connor

Some things like this:

Let's say you forgot to account for something in a round, and neither battler notices. What should you do?

Let's say would answer questions like these or questions that have come up before but are incredibly rare in occurring and so their answers aren't widely known. Like I rember someone once realized "uh oh that should have been KO'd last round" and while that wouldn't happen often hopefully it'd be nice to have that there so we don't have to dive for the ruling if it does.
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Old 09-03-2015, 05:41 PM   #112
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Well I mean okay. I am not great at thinking of these scenarios but I can see the potential value. Something of a newbie referee FAQ, newbies can contribute questions directly to me and I'll either source referees or get official lines on the answers and add them to the FAQ as we go?
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Old 09-05-2015, 07:22 PM   #113
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Well I mean okay. I am not great at thinking of these scenarios but I can see the potential value. Something of a newbie referee FAQ, newbies can contribute questions directly to me and I'll either source referees or get official lines on the answers and add them to the FAQ as we go?
Yes. Basically, have a main guide of FAQ and things that happen less often but are still important should be placed somewhere easily visible so that there's no need to dig if it happens again one blue moon later.
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244) While not FORBIDDEN, my Midnight is to keep in mind that using an army of animated skeletons in order to fill the town square with a rendition of "Spooky Scary Skeletons" is going to be considered odd at best.
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Old 09-06-2015, 07:15 AM   #114
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Alright, now that the issue with community unrest and the lack of respect has moved to another thread and is seeing things brought in place to try and deal with it, do we still believe that we need to overhaul the system somewhat in order to improve referee motivation? Do we still need to improve bonuses? Bear in mind that I am actively going to source Legend battles to people I deem capable and reliable enough outside the LO clique, and I'll be making sure that contests run somewhat regularly to give opportunities on that front too.

Myles, I'll see if I can get something set up. I'll probably ask a few newer referees to give me instances of where they feel they were put in a difficult position and see if I can't get together a functioning FAQ.
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Old 09-06-2015, 07:35 AM   #115
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I feel like the reffing system does need a slight overhaul, even if it's just changing the weekly bonus. Since my main problem with reffing was harassment, I feel like the only other thing I dislike is losing the 2x bonus for a measly 1.25. While it's better than none at all, it still is a bit of a motivation killer. I also like some of the ideas within the thread, so those are somethings we should work towards. Add some of those, allow refs to DQ and keep SP, etc. My main thing is bumping up the 1.25x bonus to 1.5, as that'll be better for motivation if you forget about a match or something.
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Old 09-06-2015, 07:46 AM   #116
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My main thing is bumping up the 1.25x bonus to 1.5, as that'll be better for motivation if you forget about a match or something.
Agreeing with this. Less of a motivation killer, and it also helps kill off icky decimals in SP totals, which nobody likes.
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Old 09-06-2015, 11:32 AM   #117
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Alright, now that the issue with community unrest and the lack of respect has moved to another thread and is seeing things brought in place to try and deal with it, do we still believe that we need to overhaul the system somewhat in order to improve referee motivation? Do we still need to improve bonuses? Bear in mind that I am actively going to source Legend battles to people I deem capable and reliable enough outside the LO clique, and I'll be making sure that contests run somewhat regularly to give opportunities on that front too.

Myles, I'll see if I can get something set up. I'll probably ask a few newer referees to give me instances of where they feel they were put in a difficult position and see if I can't get together a functioning FAQ.
I'd say, contrary to what seems to be the consensus, there's no need to up the weekly bonus. At the end of the day all that does is put a little extra SP in the pocket of medium-speed refs. Instead of that, I'd say we should implement the idea with bonuses working within matchups, because that benefits everybody- from the guy who always refs within the 48 hours but just happened to derp once, to the guy who refs once every two months at best and has decided he wants to get his ass in gear, to everyone in between. Going hand in hand with this, I'd say that we should then up the amount of times you can refresh a bonus to one per matchup as well. That'll further help people keep their bonuses and thus their motivation- if we're letting you get your bonus reset automatically every matchup and then refresh ontop of that once every matchup, you have nothing to blame for losing your bonus other than your own lack of time/willingness to put in the work.

In addition to that, I'd say we really ought to implement the 5th battle slot being restricted to people actually reffing. It's on its way out anyway, and this way we're making not an SP sink, but a reason to ref that has nothing to do with SP.
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Old 09-06-2015, 11:40 AM   #118
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Just chiming in that I don't think improving the rewards will help the motivation problem much, if at all. We've done this in the past and it works for a little while, but then motivation quickly drops off and we're back to where we started. We weren't always giving double SP bonuses before or weekly ones.
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Old 09-06-2015, 11:44 AM   #119
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I can get behind changing the bonus to apply to individual match ups, but only on the proviso that it is per KO. So your bonus 'refreshes' after each KO. This prevents people whining and claiming switching in Switch = OK refreshes it.
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Old 09-06-2015, 11:48 AM   #120
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That makes sense and I'm absolutely okay with it.

Also gonna agree with Emi that just upping the raw SP amounts isnt gonna help. You could make it 10x SP for 48 Hours and we'd eventually be back where we are now.
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Old 09-06-2015, 12:09 PM   #121
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As has been mentioned elsewhere, the rewards are fine and if they weren't fixing them would do very little.

Tutorials. More visible LO presence. Battlers not being dicks. Viable threat of being fired quickly if you don't ref. Ability to junk matches where the battlers are slow / wankers and still get paid.
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Old 09-06-2015, 12:35 PM   #122
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Tutorials. More visible LO presence. Battlers not being dicks. Viable threat of being fired quickly if you don't ref. Ability to junk matches where the battlers are slow / wankers and still get paid.
Well we already have a tutorial being done, no? Battlers not being dicks has been addressed to death and back in this thread. Let's not get into a circle of the same suggestions being debated over and over- no new ideas and points of view will come from that.

The last two things, though, while they've been mentioned haven't been addressed too frequently. I do think both of those things need to start happening. If your ref doesn't ref within a fortnight there's honestly no reason to keep them unless it's a one-time TA. Yes, I do say this knowing that lately I've been unable to ref more than once a week at best. Frankly I'm shocked no one has dumped me yet. Note the use of one-time there. If your ref posts chain-TAs that string together for months with maybe a week or two in between of active reffing, you should still be able to dump them in good conscience. I don't know if there's anything that can be done about that in terms of rule making, though, as it's the community's perception of dropping your ref that makes it difficult to do at the moment, and you can't change people's thoughts and opinions with rules.

In a similar vein, if you're a ref and your battler is a total shit all the time, or just takes a fortnight or more to order without TA, you should absolutely be able to stop reffing the match and still get the SP you earned. This was an issue I hoped to fix with my idea of refs getting their SP per KO rather than at the end of a match, but that got shredded (probably for good reason) pretty quickly. This is something we can make better by putting new rules in place: Personally, I think we should abolish the whole "last ref decides who gets what" and each ref should get the SP for each KO they ref.

Example of how it would work below in case I'm wording it poorly, since I tend to do that:

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So, if in a 6v6 I ref the first matchup, Kush refs the second and third, Emi refs the fourth, and Connor refs the 5th and 6th. I get 1 SP, Kush gets 2, Emi gets 1, and Connor gets 2, before applying any bonuses. This would work nicely in conjunction with bonuses being based off KOs, because then there would be absolutely no need to guess who deserves how much of the extra SP from bonuses- going back to the same example, let's say I reffed within a week, Kush reffed within 48 Hours, Emi reffed within 48 Hours, and Connor lost his bonuses. 1.25 SP for me, 4 for Kush, 2 for Emi, 2 for Connor. We could even have it so when I drop the match/get replaced, I take my 1.25 SP then and there, when Kush drops it/gets replaced he gets his 4, and so on. The only real problem with it is somebody coming in late in a matchup and reffing the KO round, but honestly I think that's a much smaller issue than the issue we have now of early refs getting dicked over.
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Old 09-06-2015, 12:35 PM   #123
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I don't think it will have too pronounced an effect on motivation but making the bonus not a one strike rule, regardless of how you do it, is a good idea.
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Old 09-06-2015, 01:13 PM   #124
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We're sort of doing tutorials. People need to post their reffings in the critique thread.

As long as people believe they can be DQed or believe they can be fired that's incentive enough. But that requires us enforcing it as a community.
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Old 09-07-2015, 12:18 PM   #125
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Okay so what I'm hearing here is;

1. Enact a rule change on how you earn bonuses, change it so that your bonus only applies for each individual KO, it refreshes after each automatically.
2. More attention given to our coaching thread (which I am trying to enact a drive in myself).
3. Ability for the referee to walk away from a match with their SP intact, dropping it into a referee queue.

Would I be right? Because if these are the main points people want addressed, then the first point I can ask Jeri about and make some sort of announcement on, the second I'm intending to make a post in both TOs about publicising it, and the third can be handled on a case by case basis with the LOs where it applies.
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