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Old 08-03-2010, 03:43 PM   #51
Doppleganger
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There are two endings to UBW. One is the True, which you likely got (I think) and the other is "good" which is the one I personally feel to be the best TYPE-MOON ending of any of their works, as well as the most satisfying for most of the characters involved.

Also, as you've finished the route here's a little supplement from Realta Nua. In UBW, I think (?) Archer explained about the book system for how his master copy in the Throne of Heroes gets information. Archer doesn't experience things first hand, he instead reads a sort of summary about the events his astral projections are experiencing. Sort of like Naruto's Kage Bushins gaining experience for him.

This summary (which was in my signature for a long time, until I added the Gurren-Lagann stuff) is what lonely miserable Archer reads up in the Throne. It comes from the epilogue of Realta Nua's UBW Good End:

Archer, fighting Shirō
People he couldn't save, himself he couldn't save.
What he believes in, what he believed in.
What did I become, what was I before?
This boy won't be stopped by himself.
Always raising his sword for what he believes in.
Even if he knows he can't win.
Even if there is no meaning in it.
Even if he is not strong enough.
He laughs it off.
That ideal was beautiful.
That heart was faked, but what it believed in was beautiful.
Archer lowers his blade.
"EMIYA" was cursed...
But I wasn't wrong.

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Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
First of all, pulling a sword out from the ground is significantly faster than pulling it out of a void behind one's self, now is it? That's a new one on me! How many seconds you shave off there, Shirou? One? A half? A tenth?
The theme of that battle was while Gilgamesh's GOB was more powerful than Shirou's UBW, Shirou's UBW had unlimited firepower, and his lower grade weapons were powerful enough to destroy Gilgamesh's. So rather than explain it as a matter of draw speed, is more like "for every weapon Gilgamesh pulls out, Shirou's already chucked two at him".

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Second of all, Gilgamesh is said to not be skilled at hand-to-hand combat ... for a Servant in the Archer-class! He's still a Servant, for Christ's sake. And he's still Gilgamesh. The Gilgamesh. The king of heroes. The two-thirds deity one-third mortal who almost achieved immortality. The one who has been on more adventures in his lifetime than Shirou has been on in three Fifth Holy Grail War paths combined . I'm supposed to believe that Shirou outranks Gilgamesh in swordsmanship? Give me a fucking break, man!
He really doesn't know how to use a sword on a swordsman's level. Sure, he can slash away like you and me, but it's like pitting an Kiai master versus an MMA fighter. A case of someone extremely overconfident underestimating a powerful opponent in a spectacularly graphic way.

Gilgamesh's overconfidence is always how TYPE-MOON explains away how he could ever lose, even in Fate. Ea's power for example is never used to full capacity outside of Fate/hollow ataraxia. Nasu's numerical comparison was something like, Saber's Excalibur at the end of Fate had a power output of 800, while the upper limit for Ea is 4000. For Ea to tie against Excalibur even in Saber's first bout with him, Gil was barely using 20% of Ea's maximum. This seems like retcon (imv) but it seems consistent with Gil's personality.

Interestingly, while Gilgamesh is arrogant in Fate/Zero he's not ridiculously overconfident like how he is in FSN. So it's likely the Holy Grail's influence that addled his brains a bit, even if his ego was too strong to be completely consumed by it.

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This whole time, I was thinking the explanation might have been something different. But nope. In the end, it was "UBW Reality Marble trumps Gilgamesh's Noble Phantasm." To me, that's bullshit. I was way happier with his defeat at Saber's hands in the Fate route where she used Avalon to defeat him. That at least was acceptable, if still a little wishy-washy.
I think the intended take home wasn't that Shirou could outpace Gilgamesh, but that for every blade Gilgamesh could take out of his vault, Shirou took out two. Shirou's weapons are weaker than Gilgamesh's, but they were powerful enough to destroy his authentics.

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There is no excuse for the deus ex machina bullshit that Type-Moon pulled at the end of the UBW route by having Archer come back and save the day on both fronts! I mean, fuck: saving Shirou is bad, and destroying the Grail before Saber can destroy it is bad, too; but you're telling me he did BOTH!? With virtually no magical energy left, he made his way back to the Ryudou Temple, threw a sword at Gilgamesh's head, and showered the Holy Grail with a rain of arrow-blades? COME ON!
I was annoyed that it wasn't Shirou who dealt the killing blow, and I agree it was cheap to have Archer steal everyone's thunder at the end there. However, I don't agree that Archer surviving his battle with Shirou was all that far-fetched (except for the part where he's skewered by Gilgamesh!), or that he shouldn't have a decent amount of power at the end of it.

Even regular Servants without an Independent Action attribute can survive with bare minimum mana once they've been disconnected from their Master. However, unlike with IA, they're not supposed to be able to fight, it would be "survive long enough until the Servant can find another Master". Assassin, who isn't even a full Servant and should have rightfully dissipated immediately once Caster died, mysteriously survived long enough not only to greet Saber, but fight her at full strength.

Independent Action is like a battery skill, the Servants only rely on it once they're disconnected from their Masters, but they're capable of fighting even in the absence of one. Heavy fighting can deplete it quickly, but resting can recharge it a little after a while.

Archer spent almost no energy fighting Shirou. I distinctly remember Shirou saying something like "it feels like I'm fighting Berserker!" but that could only be because Shirou can't tell the difference between the force of extremely powerful blows. Archer was definitely throwing everything he had into those strikes, but even regular people won't pass out from punching as hard as they can over and over again. As long as he wasn't charging a Broken Phantasm or tracing something really powerful, he could still be fielded following that fight.

Even Shirou's stab is fairly superficial considering Saber survived what should have been an insta-kill with Gae Bolg, and Archer survived Saber slicing him up with Invisible Air back in Fate.

Now, Gilgamesh skewering Archer was what shocked me the most, if there's any part of his reappearance that was implausible, it was surviving that. I hadn't seen that scene until going through the novel - I knew about Archer coming back for the finale, but I didn't know he came back after going through that. Berserker, freaking Berserker, was skewered to death twelve times by Gilgamesh earlier in the route. Each of Gilgamesh's weapons is a Noble Phantasm, and while Gil isn't exactly using their real abilities, he's still throwing them with the strength of an average Servant. As tough as Archer is, I found it bizarre he could survive that when Caster was torn to pieces in both Fate and UBW by the same kind of barrage.

The scene added some redundancy, with Archer saving Shirou again in the finale. I don't think that scene was necessary, it accomplished nothing in the grand scheme of things except to shock the reader.
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Old 08-03-2010, 04:53 PM   #52
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I make a big deal about it because it was stated verbatim in the game, Doppel, that Shirou could draw them faster than Gilgamesh could draw his and that this was what spelled out the difference between them. I understand your argument (from the Unlimited Blade Works name itself), but it bothers me to think that Shirou could supposedly "summon an infinite number of blades" without running out of mana first. To me, the moment he runs out of mana, (a) the Reality Marble should crumble and (b) he shouldn't be able to project any more swords. And to me, the Reality Marble should crumble after a time. The game even said so: that right when the Grail shows up to interrupt his and Gilgamesh's fight and swallows up Gilgamesh whole, his Reality Marble was already beginning to show signs of fading/weakening anyway with the outside world beginning to be visible through the ghost-like imagery of the UBW world.

So I mean, suppose the Grail hadn't come along and swallowed up Gilgamesh. Then I feel that Gilgamesh should have won that fight. Shirou's Reality Marble was disintegrating (b/c he was out of mana, b/c Tohsaka was out of mana, as she realizes during her own ordeal), and Gilgamesh still had plenty of swords left.

Another problem I have with Shirou being supposedly able to beat Gilgamesh is this insolvable power triangle:

Point A: Shirou/Archer (put them together)
Point B: Berserker
Point C: Gilgamesh

C beat B in Einzbern Castle in UBW, B beat A in Einzbern Castle in Fate, and A beat C in the Ryudou Temple in UBW

It's a very bothersome paper-rock-scissors. ^^;

The only to solve it is to say, "Well, Archer at his full strength wouldn't have lost to Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh was just taking advantage of Archer's weakened state." But that pisses me off even more. XD I may hate his personality, but Gilgamesh is the Gilgamesh ffs. He has the single greatest Noble Phantasm (until UBW came along and said, "No, we're going to crap all over it with Unlimited Blade Works, even though we told you already that the rank of the UBW swords is always one rank below what they would have been in real life." Whatever. )

Another thing that bothers me about is that Berserker is defeated by Gilgamesh yet is able to defeat Archer -- and his Reality Marble! I mean, seriously now: wtf, Doppel. COME ON! There's just no way that Archer should have lost to Berserker given what we saw Shirou -- li'l Shirou!! -- do to Gilgamesh in UBW. Vice versa, given that Archer was only able to kill Berserker six times and given that Archer had "mugen no ken" (the infinite sword) as his Noble Phantasm, there's no way that Gilgamesh should have been able to defeat Berserker, either.

It's a logical inconsistency. If the Gate of Babylon isn't enough to beat Archer's/Shirou's Reality Marble, and if that Reality Marble isn't enough to beat Berserker, then the Gate of Babylon should also not be enough to beat Berserker. But if the GoB is enough to beat Berserker, and if UBW is not enough to beat Berserker, then the GoB should be better than UBW.
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Old 08-03-2010, 07:17 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
I make a big deal about it because it was stated verbatim in the game, Doppel, that Shirou could draw them faster than Gilgamesh could draw his and that this was what spelled out the difference between them.
Ah, I think I see the confusion (?). We'll only get a definite answer when the movie comes out and visually shows it, but my interpretation -

Shirou says that the blades automatically came to his hand, a la how the Jedi remotely grab lightsabers using the Force. Archer also has the ability to telekinetically command the swords in his UBW, as we see with his rain of swords technique. But this is faster, since Shirou doesn't even have to concentrate to get a fully materialized sword. If Shirou's not insta-tracing the weapons as Gilgamesh pulls them out, they're responding to his grip flying into his hand as soon as he desires their use.

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I understand your argument (from the Unlimited Blade Works name itself), but it bothers me to think that Shirou could supposedly "summon an infinite number of blades" without running out of mana first. To me, the moment he runs out of mana, (a) the Reality Marble should crumble and (b) he shouldn't be able to project any more swords. And to me, the Reality Marble should crumble after a time. The game even said so: that right when the Grail shows up to interrupt his and Gilgamesh's fight and swallows up Gilgamesh whole, his Reality Marble was already beginning to show signs of fading/weakening anyway with the outside world beginning to be visible through the ghost-like imagery of the UBW world.
This one's easy.

There's a discrepancy between the universe seen from inside UBW and that from outside. From the outside, UBW's barrier is visible (separated by a wall of fire) and finite, like say maybe 800 metres in diameter. But inside UBW, the barren landscape of swords literally goes on forever, so there really are an unlimited number of weapons in them.

When Shirou regularly traces a weapon, he's recreating the weapon from scratch based on the version stored in his memory/UBW. This takes less mana in absolute terms, but it's not as efficient as taking the fight to UBW itself, where he doesn't have to make the weapon all over again. When Shirou casts UBW, he's not actually tracing all the weapons at once, he's taking the combatants to a world where all the blades are pre-traced for him.

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So I mean, suppose the Grail hadn't come along and swallowed up Gilgamesh. Then I feel that Gilgamesh should have won that fight. Shirou's Reality Marble was disintegrating (b/c he was out of mana, b/c Tohsaka was out of mana, as she realizes during her own ordeal), and Gilgamesh still had plenty of swords left.
Debatable.

I'd say if Shirou hadn't sliced off Gil's arm, Gilgamesh could have won. Gil is technically skilled with only two weapons - Enkidu and Enuma Elish. Enkidu is going to be less effective against Shirou than Berserker because Shirou has no divnity, and against a regular person it's not much stronger than a regular chain. Even Kashou and Bakuya could easily slice through it. Gil was going to use Ea against Shirou (which is useless aside from its ability, and is also complete overkill, showing just how desperate he was!) but he lost that chance when his arm got chopped off.

Gilgamesh literally had the strength and speed to punch out Shirou, but whether that is enough to defeat a Kanshou + Bakuya wielding Shirou I don't know, especially when he lost an arm. If Shirou used the boomerang ability Archer uses, Gil wouldn't have been able to escape, no would he have been able to if Shirou used the sword rain ability.

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Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Another problem I have with Shirou being supposedly able to beat Gilgamesh is this insolvable power triangle:

Point A: Shirou/Archer (put them together)
Point B: Berserker
Point C: Gilgamesh

C beat B in Einzbern Castle in UBW, B beat A in Einzbern Castle in Fate, and A beat C in the Ryudou Temple in UBW

It's a very bothersome paper-rock-scissors. ^^;

The only to solve it is to say, "Well, Archer at his full strength wouldn't have lost to Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh was just taking advantage of Archer's weakened state." But that pisses me off even more. XD I may hate his personality, but Gilgamesh is the Gilgamesh ffs. He has the single greatest Noble Phantasm (until UBW came along and said, "No, we're going to crap all over it with Unlimited Blade Works, even though we told you already that the rank of the UBW swords is always one rank below what they would have been in real life." Whatever. )

Another thing that bothers me about is that Berserker is defeated by Gilgamesh yet is able to defeat Archer -- and his Reality Marble! I mean, seriously now: wtf, Doppel. COME ON! There's just no way that Archer should have lost to Berserker given what we saw Shirou -- li'l Shirou!! -- do to Gilgamesh in UBW. Vice versa, given that Archer was only able to kill Berserker six times and given that Archer had "mugen no ken" (the infinite sword) as his Noble Phantasm, there's no way that Gilgamesh should have been able to defeat Berserker, either.

It's a logical inconsistency. If the Gate of Babylon isn't enough to beat Archer's/Shirou's Reality Marble, and if that Reality Marble isn't enough to beat Berserker, then the Gate of Babylon should also not be enough to beat Berserker. But if the GoB is enough to beat Berserker, and if UBW is not enough to beat Berserker, then the GoB should be better than UBW.
Gilgamesh took advantage of the narrow Einzbern Castle battleground by aiming for Ilya, forcing Berserker to stand in the way of his Gate of Babylon when Berserker would otherwise have dodged the attacks. Gilgamesh took something like eight of Berserker's lives like this, but even with all that Berserker could have still crushed Gilgamesh were it not for a single Noble Phantasm.

That Noble Phantasm is Enkidu. Enkidu is the only real weapon in the Epic of Gilgamesh FSN's Gilgamesh also has, it's the chain that bound the Bull of Heaven, which allowed Gilgamesh and his best friend Enkidu (who the chain was eventually named after) to kill the rampaging bull.

Enkidu seems like just a regular chain, but it's real ability is its strength is inversely proportional to the divinity of whatever it's restraining. In the FSN anime, Gilgamesh used Enkidu to restrain the faster Lancer so he could be stabbed with Caladbolg. Even Heracles, the strongest hero in all of the world's mythology, combined with Mad Enhancement as a Servant which doubled his strength, was unable to break the chain (except for at the end, where his desire to protect Ilya was so immense he overcame it) because of his high divinity.

In the FSN anime, Archer used UBW against Berseker, but in the novel Berserker didn't have tons of swords sticking out of him as is typical whenever Archer uses the sword rain ability of UBW. Archer fought Berserker in the same place Gilgamesh did, he could have easily employed that tactic if he wanted to. For this reason, most people seem to think he didn't use it against Berserker, for what reasons nobody really knows.

Although...the reasons are pretty obvious if you ask me. ^^;

Archer wouldn't use the same tactic Gilgamesh did because he loves Ilya and would never even dream of harming her, even in UBW. In F/ha it was suggested that during Archer's "route" Ilya was the only girl to survive the war, everyone else including Fuji-nee died (he also failed to 'save' Saber, whatever that means). I won't go into it now, since HF is very much the "Ilya route that wasn't meant to be" but more will be revealed.
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Old 08-03-2010, 08:02 PM   #54
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That reminds me ...

ILYA! ;___;

I was so excited when I learned that we were headed out to Castle Einzbern to forge an alliance with Ilya. And I was so, so distraught when the poor thing had her eyes slashed by Gilgamesh. I about cried when she found Berserker's corpse and started speaking to it before she, too, expired.
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Old 08-07-2010, 04:47 AM   #55
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So Talon, I'm assuming you've already gotten past the...

Spoiler: show
Archer Arm Shirou bit. So I ask of you - what if Archer survived but lost his memory again, and found himself in feudal Japan?
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Old 08-07-2010, 09:01 AM   #56
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I haven't started Heaven's Feel yet, actually. Don't worry, I didn't click your spoiler box. I'm taking a break from the game so I don't feel burnt out on the plot. I want to enjoy Heaven's Feel at Max Power.
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Old 01-08-2011, 06:01 PM   #57
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I just finished sitting through the second awkward H-scene in Fate. Didn't think the first one was so bad, though killing her emotions or not, Rin's actions definitely went overboard. Saber taking the initiative without her presence was even more ridiculous though. The whole scene read like a hilariously OOC fanfic. I certainly don't remember the animé even referencing this part.

*ahem* Anyway, on the topic of sex, I have a hypothesis in answer to Talon's question as to why Saber and Shirou don't share dreams in the other timelines. I'm fairly positive the dream-sharing began only after the first time they made love, so I assume it also formed some sort of spiritual connection. Unless they do it in the other timelines too, in which case I have no explanation.

Oh, and didn't the animé also pull some justification for not having their bodies touch afterward due to the possibility of mana or memories jumping between them? Or was that just Saber/the studio making up excuses for censorship? Or am I thinking of something else entirely? It's been a long time since I watched the show.

(...Why must my mother always come downstairs right when I enter these scenes? I swear parents must be psychic... x.X)
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Old 01-08-2011, 06:33 PM   #58
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Lilblu's Mom, "My mother sense is tingling!" *shoots webs and swings to where Lilblu is*
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Old 01-08-2011, 07:23 PM   #59
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Aw. Got my first bad end when I faced Kotomine. I wanted to see what Shirou would say to Kiritsugu since I don't know much about his character. Guess I have to take Tora Buru's advice and actually come up with a battle plan beforehand.

In addition to Talon's advice to always "pick the suicidal option", I've been mostly relying on my memory of the animé course of events, which is severely waning at this point. On that note, I didn't recall the victims in the church as the other children who survived the fire 10 years ago. Is my memory just faulty?
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Old 01-08-2011, 07:33 PM   #60
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Nope, that was new to me too. That, or we're comrades in faulty memories.
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Old 01-08-2011, 08:40 PM   #61
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All right, cleared Fate. Now I can finally start exploring new material. UBW, here I come!

...Unless I can't resist the urge to go back and unlock all the Tiger Stamps. So. Tempting. Gah.

By the way, Talon, did you ever find that CG you were missing? If not, you can obtain it on the 8th day by asking Fuji-nee to give you a gift before dinner.
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Old 01-09-2011, 01:11 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YUKI.N View Post
I just finished sitting through the second awkward H-scene in Fate. Didn't think the first one was so bad, though killing her emotions or not, Rin's actions definitely went overboard. Saber taking the initiative without her presence was even more ridiculous though. The whole scene read like a hilariously OOC fanfic. I certainly don't remember the animé even referencing this part.
That's Nasu's writing for you. Actually, I think it's pretty common for male H-writers to put out really bad stuff like that. The scenes in Muv-Luv weren't the best quality, but they were better than mollusk scenes at least.

Now, Sengoku Rance's main scenario and H-scene writer is a woman. Her scenes were great. I don't really understand why, though. o_o

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*ahem* Anyway, on the topic of sex, I have a hypothesis in answer to Talon's question as to why Saber and Shirou don't share dreams in the other timelines. I'm fairly positive the dream-sharing began only after the first time they made love, so I assume it also formed some sort of spiritual connection. Unless they do it in the other timelines too, in which case I have no explanation.
It was strengthened after that, but it had been happening for a while before. Truth be told though, had Shirou and Saber stayed connected for the full two weeks, there would have been no secrets between them.
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Old 01-17-2011, 01:02 PM   #63
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May start later today (is this the seventh time I've said this?), but anyway ...

Here's an AWESOME F/HA fan video! As I said on Youtube, "I never really felt that I was missing out on Fate/Hollow Ataraxia until I saw this video. Now I really wish that there was an English patch out for it!"

Coolest CG in the video seems to be the one at 0:47, but the cutest/coolest bit in the whole thing is definitely 0:51 when Berserker is giving Ilya a high-speed ride on his shoulders. Awwwwwwww. Just look at that smile! Ilya's so cute.
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Old 01-20-2011, 04:35 PM   #64
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Oh wow: shit just got real.

Ootsuka Akio will be providing the voice for Rider. Oohara Sayaka will be providing the voice for Irisviel von Einzbern. Kawasumi Ayako (Saber), Nakata George (Kotomine Kirei), and Tomokazu Seki (4th War Archer) all reprise their roles for this latest television installment in the Fate universe.

The animation will be provided by ufotable, the same group who provided the animation for the Kara no Kyoukai OAVs.

The February issue of Newtype magazine, for which Fate/Zero was the cover story, reported that the Fate/Zero anime will air on television this year.

Lady and gentlemen: brace yourselves.

For more information on Fate/Zero, click here.
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Old 01-20-2011, 05:26 PM   #65
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It's a movie, right?
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Old 01-20-2011, 05:45 PM   #66
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I don't think so. The website says TVアニメ化決定 (TV Anime-ka Kettei, or "Making of the TV Anime Decided") on the front page, and television isn't a likely place to debut a film. You'd think they would debut a film either in theaters or else straight-to-DVD. Elsewhere on the site (in one of the posts on the newsfeed), it says 2011年放送開始予定です, or "Plans for a 2011 broadcast have begun." The word 放送 housou, "broadcast," again suggests that this is going to air on television and not in theaters. Now sure, it could be a film that airs on TV. Lord knows we do that tons of times in the West. But I don't think that's the case here. I'm pretty sure that this is going to be a television anime. And that makes sense. Fans were disappointed by how choppy and spastic the plot progression was in the UBW film, so I doubt that ufotable would want to repeat history all over again.

Here's hoping for a 24'er. At roughly six episodes (3 hours) per novel, that should be just about right, both allowing the plot to be fully fleshed out and allowing for some spectacular fight scenes.
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Old 02-07-2011, 04:19 PM   #67
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Made this Fate/Zero banner for us. Took a good picture of Nitro+'s that pretty much sums up the 4th Holy Grail War in a nutshell, slapped on the official logo, and voilŕ. It's also doubling as my new signature (albeit two-thirds the original size). Turned off my sig for this post to avoid the disorienting effect of seeing it doubly. ^^;

Oh, and by the way? Click here.

That's right. Guess who's coming to dinner ...
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Old 02-07-2011, 05:37 PM   #68
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Sorry for the double-post, but I just saw this in-game and I had to say something:


Number one, awwww.
Number two, why oh why didn't you write up an asexual Ilya path, Nasu? ;_; I've been looking forward to the Sakura path for ages, but an asexual fourth path dedicated towards Ilya would have been supreme.
Number three, I can't wait to see Shirou team up with Ilya in this route if he does so. Speculation follows:

Spoiler: show
You guys promised me he'd team up with Ilya in UBW, but then as he went to go and try and do that she got murdered! So I'm hoping against hope that I misinterpreted what you guys said, or you misremembered, or something, and he teams up with her this third time around. I'll be crushed if he doesn't. Shirou and Ilya for the win!
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Old 02-07-2011, 07:14 PM   #69
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Triple post. But there's so much to talk about!

Shirou just went to talk to Kotomine as per Saber's advice in order to learn more about his father and the 4th Holy Grail War, something which never happened in previous routes. And hoooooooooooooo man! Is the shit getting real or what!? (See non-spoiler picture.)

So stoked for Fate/Zero this fall. Will be bummed out if they delay it to Spring 2012, but either way this is going to be awesome. In the Heaven's Feel path, there have already been so many vague references to events that took place in the 4th Holy Grail War that I just know it's going to be an absolute delight to see them fully-explained and fully-animated.

Here's a spoiler example from the conversation with Kotomine:
Spoiler: show
According to Kotomine, Kiritsugu at one point in the war destroyed a rival Master's Servant. The defeated Master was then grovelling on the ground on all fours, crying. Kiritsugu allowed this to go on for a little while before aiming a gun at the defeated Master's head and pulling the trigger.

We don't know who the Master was nor the Servant. We don't even know the nature behind Kiritsugu's actions. (Kotomine claims they were callous, cold, emotionless. But were they really?) We know to anticipate this amazingly emotional scene, but aside from that we know nothing of the specific details. Everything is brand-new, never-before-seen. (Well, not if you've read the books already , but ...!)

This is going to be so awesome.

Speculation about the aforemention scene, btw:
Spoiler: show
I wonder if it'll be Velvet Waver. That'd be really emotional. To see Rider fall in combat. To then see Waver, just this teenage boy who was too full of himself at the war's beginning and had no idea what he was getting into, now grovelling on the floor, begging for his life, crying like the boy that he is. To see Kiritsugu with an emotionless, blank stare on his face. Raising the gun. Pointing it at Waver's head. And pulling the trigger.

Obviously I could be wrong. I have, after all, only a one in five chance of being right.

Last edited by Talon87; 02-07-2011 at 07:16 PM.
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Old 02-08-2011, 11:42 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
/Fate%20Stay%20Night/awwww_th.png[/img][/url][/center]

Number one, awwww.
Number two, why oh why didn't you write up an asexual Ilya path, Nasu? ;_; I've been looking forward to the Sakura path for ages, but an asexual fourth path dedicated towards Ilya would have been supreme.
Laziness on his part. He half-arsed Tsukihime too, since Satsuki was supposed to have a path and he didn't write that either.

Consider that the ideas for Tsukihime and FSN were both conceived when Nasu was in high school, he hasn't actually made a VN in his adult life and nothing really significant since 2004. TYPE-MOON gets so much cash from its spin-off projects he can just sit back and play Nitro+ all day. =3=

Also, you're basically getting the Ilya path now because it was combined with Sakura. It made HF kind of wonky because Shirou has this devotion to Ilya, yet he's supposedly sworn to protect only Sakura.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Number three, I can't wait to see Shirou team up with Ilya in this route if he does so. Speculation follows:

Spoiler: show
You guys promised me he'd team up with Ilya in UBW, but then as he went to go and try and do that she got murdered! So I'm hoping against hope that I misinterpreted what you guys said, or you misremembered, or something, and he teams up with her this third time around. I'll be crushed if he doesn't. Shirou and Ilya for the win!
Compared to how he was in Fate, it was a team-up. Though, HF is pretty much the real deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Spoiler: show
I wonder if it'll be Velvet Waver. That'd be really emotional. To see Rider fall in combat. To then see Waver, just this teenage boy who was too full of himself at the war's beginning and had no idea what he was getting into, now grovelling on the floor, begging for his life, crying like the boy that he is. To see Kiritsugu with an emotionless, blank stare on his face. Raising the gun. Pointing it at Waver's head. And pulling the trigger.

Obviously I could be wrong. I have, after all, only a one in five chance of being right.
I'm not going to say who it is (though I have an idea) but it's not.

Spoiler: show
Waver Velvet becomes Rin's instructor in London post-FSN, and he goes back after the 5th Holy Grail War and cleans up whatever mess was leftover in Fate and UBW.


One cool thing about the 4th Holy Grail War is one got more material to pair Servants with. For example, I think 5th HGW Archer and 4th HGW Rider would have been unbeatable if they ever teamed up. Their abilities complimented each other so well, and I can't imagine they wouldn't have gotten along well together.
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Old 02-08-2011, 01:11 PM   #71
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Yeah, I'd heard before about Heavens Feel being the merged Sakura/Ilya path, and I'm already seeing the earliest signs of it. It's pretty clear so far that Ilya is just the adorable add-on to what is otherwise meant to be a Sakura-devoted path. I was saying earlier, "Oh Nasu! Why didn't you make four paths? ;_;"

About Waver Velvet: really? That directly contradicts claims made by Kotomine in earnest about the 4th War:
Spoiler: show
I thought he told Shirou that he and Kiritsugu were the only two to survive the war. He might have said that he was the only person to ever confront Kiritsugu and live to tell the tale, which would be different, but I'll have to check that out if I can.


I'm posting via cell phone right now, so expect more later.
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Old 02-08-2011, 02:06 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
About Waver Velvet: really? That directly contradicts claims made by Kotomine in earnest about the 4th War:
Spoiler: show
I thought he told Shirou that he and Kiritsugu were the only two to survive the war. He might have said that he was the only person to ever confront Kiritsugu and live to tell the tale, which would be different, but I'll have to check that out if I can.
That's almost certainly a lie, even without the F/Z material. Since you don't seem to know Kotomine's secret, that tells me he'll reveal it HF. I'd thought it was revealed in Fate, but I've forgotten a lot of things.
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Old 02-08-2011, 03:29 PM   #73
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Kotomine's secret? Probably not. What do I know about him?

Spoiler: show
I know he was the son of the last war's supervisor.

I know he was the first Master to exit the last war.

I know he's a former member of the Church who switched sides to the Magic Association but without telling the Church that he had done so.

I know he considers himself to be on a somewhat smarter or better path than either the Church or the Magic Association. (Like, he makes it sound like the Church has one goal, the Magic Association has another, and he has a third that takes the best bits from both of them and combines them into one.) In this sense, he's really a traitor to both groups.

I know (as of HF) that he knows healing magic. I know (as of HF) that he learned the healing magic because there was somebody he could not save in the last war. (Presumably his father? L-O-L + W-O-W if I'm thrown for a loop and they reveal that Kotomine had feelings for Irisviel! )

I know he somehow managed to get his hands on Archer (Gilgamesh), considering that was not the Servant he summoned. (Which Servant he did summon, I do not know.)

I know (as of HF) that his dream is the opposite of Emiya Kiritsugu's goal. What exactly this means, though, I have no idea, since a lot of things could potentially be "the opposite" of the goal of becoming a superhero. (That is to say, I wouldn't necessarily assume that he wishes to become a supervillain. It's more likely that where Kiritsugu wished for a peaceful world without conflict, Kotomine wishes for a world filled with fascinating conflict. He has mentioned in HF how nothing excites him.)

I know that he's explained his goal to me before with the Grail in the ends of both the Fate and UBW paths, but for the life of me I can't remember what he said. The corrosive black tentacles left a larger impression on me than Kotomine's ramblings. And in each case, five minutes later he's dead and forgotten, so ...

I know (as of Fate) that he's been doing horrible things to the bodies of the war orphans who were sent to the Church's "orphanage." How they're all limbless, blinded amputees and such, kept barely alive in the basement of the church. Though I confess I don't remember why he's doing it other than for the possible fact of needing magical energy to supply to Gilgamesh in order to keep him in our world.

That's sort of it. So I imagine you're right that I don't know whatever secret it is you're talking about. The last one comes the closest, but it's not so much a secret as it is a terrible thing he's been doing in secret. Two different things, of course.
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Old 02-08-2011, 05:01 PM   #74
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None of what you listed is what I'm thinking of, so I'm fairly sure it hasn't been revealed yet.

The secret, for later-

Spoiler: show
Kotomine was killed by Kiritsugu during the final battle of the 4th Holy Grail War. However, Saber wasn't able to completely destroy the grail (for some reason) and its corruptive presence, in the form of a black liquid, basically spilled out and covered Kotomine. It granted his final thoughts as a wish, which ended up causing him to come back to life, and the grail created that enormus fire that killed Shirou's real parents.

Gilgamesh has been said to have been tainted by the grail, but he was actually corrupted through Kotomine, since the two had a Prana link.
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Old 02-12-2011, 11:07 AM   #75
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Making slow progress into Heavens Feel, I think I'm fast approaching (if I haven't already passed) the Point of No Return between whether I'll get the one HF ending or the other. I have no idea what either ending entails. I just know that there are two possible endings to unlock.

Decisions, Decisions:
Most recent choices have included ...
  1. Do I not lie to Sakura about my sex dream with Tohsaka? Or do I evade the question?
    I chose to not lie. I figured Shirou would give a held-back response. And he did. But my alarms were definitely set off when the moment Shirou dropped Tohsaka's name, I saw a face on Sakura I'd never seen before: half-crestfallen, half-sinister, her long hair hiding her eyes from view. Wuh oh!
  2. Do I go shopping? Do I have a snack? Or do I watch TV?
    This is from when Shirou has stayed home with a fever. Option 1 hints at an interaction with Ilya. Option 2 hints at one with Sakura. Option 3 hints at doing nothing. I chose Option 1. Again, I don't want to piss Sakura off, but like hell I'm going to miss out on Ilya scenes!
  3. Do I punch Shinji? Or do I restrain myself?
    This was the choice from the surprising scene (discussed later) where Shinji came to pick Sakura up. I didn't even have to think twice: I chose to punch him.
  4. Do I patrol Miyama City? Shinto City? Or do I stay home to watch over Sakura?
    Sakura's eyes changed and she had another attack, so I opted to stay home. I got a nice Sakura discussion scene out of it, but I don't think it'll be enough to offset the damage dealt by her discovering I had a dream about Tohsaka.
So we'll see how I fare, given these choices. Will I get Ending A or will I get Ending B? Only time will tell. The good news (?), at any rate, is that I have yet to get a single Game Over so far, so there've been absolutely zero Tiger Stamps for me on this route.

Tohsaka sex scene:
This came completely by surprise. I have snubbed Tohsaka at every single opportunity except the one life-or-death scenario where I chose to surprise her by asking to talk (rather than fleeing for my life) when she sinisterly approached me at school that one time. But I wouldn't think that this would be enough for Shirou to be having sex dreams about Tohsaka of all people!

The other thing which was really surprising about this scene for me was that it was the first sex scene which I would say was at least kinda erotic. On a scale of -10 to 10, mind you, this only ranks a 2. It wasn't very erotic. It still suffered heavily from Nasu's terrible sex scene narrative. But a clothed Tohsaka hides her flat chest pretty well. She looks better with her hair done up. In fact, with nearly all of her clothes on, she doesn't look nearly as anorexic and gangly-looking as she does in her proper sex scenes in UBW: this in my book is a major plus. But I suppose the best thing about this sex scene was that there was no awkwardness on the part of either party. Whether because it was a dream or what, I don't know, Shirou didn't seem the least bit embarrassed or (even worse) Harry Potter 6 "Harry let the lion in his chest roar with delight" ridiculously giddy. He just seemed like a normal dude who was enjoying the moment. On the flipside we had Tohsaka who, for her part, was a standard bitch-in-heat character: which was a really appreciated erotic step-up from the "ow, Shirou, it hurts! But I'll bear it because it still feels good" masochism from other sex scenes in the game. No pain. No humiliation. No tsundere moments. Just she wanted him, he wanted her. It worked, if weakly. (Like I said: only a 2 on the -10 to 10 scale.)

Shinji's Visit to the Emiya Household:
Wow.

Spoiler: show
Well, let's start off with the biggest bombshell: Shinji has been having sex with Sakura. This is something I've seen in tons of FSN doujins, so I guess I should have expected it to be canon, but still ... there's a difference between imagining (or filling in the gaps for myself) that Shinji has this sort of relationship with Sakura and actually being told it canonically in the game.

But second: that punch to the poor girl's face. What the fuck. Even if he'd slapped her, he'd be way out of line, a bully, a horrible person, etc. But to actually punch her and knock her to the floor ... on MY doorstep ...!

Shinji is a terrible, terrible person. He deserved to die in Path 1 (and did!). He deserved to die even moreso in Path 2 (but didn't! ). And he most deserves to die in Path 3. I know it isn't nice to call for people's execution, but seriously, what a depraved individual. He's pretty much ruined Sakura's life. Now, even if she tries to have a consummate relationship with her Emiya-senpai, she's not going to be able to have sex with him without thinking about the times she was raped by Shinji. Those memories are burned into her mind. She will forever associate sex with Shinji. In that sense, sex is ruined for her. What a fucking prick.


Rendezvous with Ilya, Part II:
That scene was really cute. It was also pretty awesome to finally get to see Ilya's servants Sella and Leysritt, although as expected they're not likely to become friends of Shirou's. I appreciated the nod (intentional or not) to Kanon's Ayu in having Shirou gift Ilya a bag full of taiyaki. Maybe taiyaki just conjure up an image of cute girls in heavy winter clothes in the minds of most Japanese men , I dunno. I would have LOVED to have had a CG of Ilya preparing to take, and subsequently taking, a big bite out of a taiyaki. That would have been awesome. Oh well.

Last scene I saw:
Spoiler: show
Lancer just bit the dust courtesy of True Assassin.

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