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Old 07-29-2010, 04:56 PM   #26
Talon87
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Okay, it was officially revealed just now that Shirou has Saber's Excalibur's sheath inside his body. (Bizarre.) But this makes sense as to:

(a) how he summoned Saber -- specifically Saber -- in the first place, and
(b) he can't die.

Still, it's sort of lame. I will be only too glad if this plot device is conveniently absent from the other routes. Or, at the very least, if it is not as heavily leaned upon.
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Old 07-29-2010, 05:36 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big bad birtha View Post
I also still think there should've been an Illiya path. I mean, as far as interests go, the other three are kinda dull. Illiya's also kinda like a child Arcueid.
Supposedly, HF is a combo Sakura/Ilya Route because Nasu was too time pressed and/or lazy to flesh out a route specifically for her.

UBW-HF, not for Talon yet:

Spoiler: show

Canon states that among all the women in the 5th Holy Grail War, Archer only has a particularly history with Ilya. He has that beginning history with Saber, and knows her identity (implying he stuck with her for a while) but anything further isn't clear.

It is hinted that in Archer's universe, everyone died except Shirou and Ilya, and that Ilya's presence was a major factor in preventing Shirou from becoming Archer, but her death had the opposite effect. Because Ilya strained her body beyond its limits by controlling Berserker, even if she survives the war she dies within a year of the 5th Holy Grail War ending (Fate/hollow ataraxia takes place half a year later).

My own idea is that Archer failed to stop the Grail's evil in his time-line, which had world-affecting consequences. This would set the stage for him to evolve into the Archer we know today.
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Old 07-29-2010, 08:38 PM   #28
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I just beat Fate. It ended better than I was beginning to fear. I had completely forgotten about (or did the anime not even use this plot device?) how Saber uses Avalon to defeat Gilgamesh and how Shirou simultaneously uses a projection of Avalon to defeat Kotomine. That was cool.

I liked the epilogue. I'm happy to see that Ilya is alive because I remember from way back when Doppel (or somebody!) said to me after I finished the anime, "You know, Ilya dies after a little bit because she's a magical being created by the Grail, and so without it she ceases to exist." Maybe that was just for the anime, I dunno. But regardless, it was great to see that Ilya was still very much alive two months (April 7, it said!) after the 5th Holy Grail War ended.

But ... she didn't get to live with Shirou? :3 ^^; Aww man! I was hoping he'd have adopted her! Taiga adopting Ilya is just ... I dunno, kinda weird. Taiga doesn't seem like Mommy material. (And seeing how Ilya reacted with Taiga in the epilogue, I guess I'm proven right! )

But I wonder ... why would Ilya not want to go back to being with the Einzberns? And why wouldn't they demand her back? I mean, whether Ilya is Kiritsugu's and Irisviel's daughter or not, I have no idea (still haven't read Fate / Zero!), but assuming that Irisviel is Ilya's mother, then even if Irisviel is deceased by the time of the events in FSN, wouldn't that still mean that Ilya's got a maternal grandfather or grandmother back in Germany who misses her?

Maybe this will be addressed in Unlimited Blade Works or Heaven's Feel.

DOPPEL! I unlocked all of the artwork for the Fate path except for one random piece of art! What happened!? What did I do wrong? ;_; (If you load up the game and go to the in-game gallery, it's the very first picture on Page 2. The one to the left of Rider slitting her own neck.)

Also ... without spoilering too much, what is the best way to get onto the UBW path? How does it work? Does it ...

1. Let me pick when I start a new file? I doubt it, because of the "Try again from the night of the 3rd day" message.

2. Offer me new selections on Tohsaka's Prologue route when we reach the night of the third day, February 2nd?

3. Offer me old selections on (ditto) but which now have new consequences?

4. Offer me new selections on Shirou's Main Story route when we reach the night of the third day, February 2nd?

5. Offer me old selections on (ditto) but which now have new consequences?
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Old 07-29-2010, 09:08 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
But ... she didn't get to live with Shirou? :3 ^^; Aww man! I was hoping he'd have adopted her! Taiga adopting Ilya is just ... I dunno, kinda weird. Taiga doesn't seem like Mommy material. (And seeing how Ilya reacted with Taiga in the epilogue, I guess I'm proven right! )
She basically does, since Taiga freeloads at Shirou's house and Ilya comes with her.

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Maybe this will be addressed in Unlimited Blade Works or Heaven's Feel.
It will.

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Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
DOPPEL! I unlocked all of the artwork for the Fate path except for one random piece of art! What happened!? What did I do wrong? ;_; (If you load up the game and go to the in-game gallery, it's the very first picture on Page 2. The one to the left of Rider slitting her own neck.)
You likely picked an option following that battle that skipped that CG, but the end result was the same.

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Also ... without spoilering too much, what is the best way to get onto the UBW path? How does it work? Does it ...
It works like how you dock onto Coco's Route in Ever17, new options appear that weren't available in your first play. There's only a single option to enter UBW, while several to get into HF. And you can't get to HF without going through UBW first.
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Old 07-29-2010, 09:40 PM   #30
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Okay, well I'm not going to look it up. I'm just going to try my best and see if I can get it. I'll answer every question that pits Rin against Saber with "Rin", and likewise Rin against Sakura with "Rin," and I figure that'll get me there. If that's not the trick? Then I'll just have to hope I'll know it when I see it.
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Old 07-30-2010, 01:41 AM   #31
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Random plugging and not caring about Bad Ends would work too...and earn you Tiger Stamps. :V Although not being "pro-Saber" just means when Kotomine asks Saber to betray Shirou, she very well might.

I think the CG you're missing is Saber scaling a skyscraper with Rider, but I'm not 100% sure. If you take a screen of the first and second page I could easily identify which one you're probably missing.

It's been a while since I played the game, but I remember a specific event in the tower after Rider was defeated that, upon my play-through, didn't yield what I expected. After Saber defeated Rider, Shinji ran away...and was killed. Supposedly, following after Shinji would result in Shirou coming face-to-face with Berserker, who would smash him into goo. In my game, Shirou found nothing, then returned to the roof to find Saber. I might have built up too many Saber points for that to have resulted in a Bad End though, I don't know the full details of how that works.
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Old 07-30-2010, 01:47 AM   #32
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Umm, I decided to take a look into what CG you were missing, and it seems to be one from Saber's past. Did you ever get a choice to give Saber a stuffed doll, or something asking about a pet? It's been a while, but I think giving her a stuffed doll unlocks it.
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Old 07-30-2010, 08:44 AM   #33
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Doppel: I never got any Tiger Stamps, despite two Dead Ends reached. I think it's because the Tiger Dojo asks me, "Do you want a Hint?" and every time I have willingly said "No" because I genuinely do not want spoilers. I think that maybe because I click "No," it doesn't register. If this logic is wrong, then I don't know what the problem is. Regardless, I have no Tiger Stamps despite clearing Fate and along the way having reached two Dead Ends.

BBB: We went to the plushie store on our date, but that was way, way past the Rider incident. At that time, I (Shirou) asked Saber what she likes, and she commented "lions and panthers." I assume we got her one but I never got to see it.
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Old 07-30-2010, 12:35 PM   #34
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The hints are pretty non-descript, they tell you exactly what you didn't do. Something like, "Shirou, you should be more manly! Don't leave Saber behind even if you're concerned about me!".

The only exception would be Saber turning on Shirou due to a lack of Saber points, where they'd tell you to replay the game and be nicer to Saber. But that's only marginally worse.
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Old 07-30-2010, 05:07 PM   #35
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Wow, that was pretty obvious. "Oh look: it's actually giving me a choice this time about whether to halt Saber's advance against Archer or not." Talk about majorly changing history! And so far it sure has. With Shirou down one Command Spell and Tohsaka up one; with Archer actually able to participate in fights; and with Team Tohsaka considerably less indebted to Team Shirou, this is shaping up to be a very different Holy Grail War. And I haven't even finished their first fight with Berserker yet.

For the record, I picked "Don't stop her" the first time, thinking that -- since that was the crueler, darker option -- it would lead me to the crueler, darker Shirou of UBW (and subsequently HF). When I noticed that NOTHING HAPPENED, I was like, "Wuh oh , let's back up and try that again. ^^;"
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Old 07-30-2010, 05:11 PM   #36
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Quote:
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So, I hear there's a movie going to be made! Looks like HECK FROZE OVER after-all and we're getting Unlimited Blade Works!!!
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/ency...e.php?id=10981

Doppel, I looked into this a bit more last night. Seems like the UBW movie is in the exact same position as the Haruhi movie:

* it has aired
* but it hasn't yet come out on DVD
* nor has it yet been English subtitled

Hopefully both films will come out on DVD soon.
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Old 07-30-2010, 09:05 PM   #37
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For the record, I picked "Don't stop her" the first time, thinking that -- since that was the crueler, darker option -- it would lead me to the crueler, darker Shirou of UBW (and subsequently HF). When I noticed that NOTHING HAPPENED, I was like, "Wuh oh , let's back up and try that again. ^^;"
Actually, I made the same mistake.
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Old 07-31-2010, 08:08 PM   #38
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Rider's dead. Archer has attempted to kill me at the Ryudou Temple. Tohsaka very clearly has feelings towards me which she has difficulty accepting.

Caster is much more badass / gets to do much more in this story path. But if memory serves, isn't she at her best in Heaven's Feel?

Some of the differences between Fate and UBW I am able to accept and really enjoy. For instance, I'm able to accept and enjoy all the added conversations between Shirou and Archer, things which naturally wouldn't have gotten to take place in the Fate timeline where Archer spent most of his time at Tohsaka's, healing. But the fact that Shirou isn't sharing dreams with Saber anymore, for instance, is something which makes me go, "Huh? But wait a second ... shouldn't that be happening regardless of the timeline?" It's moments like these where I think Ever17 does a much better job at exploring alternate timelines. Nothing that happens in the You path contradicts information in the Sora path. Nothing in the Tsugumi path contradicts information in the Sara path. They're just different paths with different sights to see. And then they all come together for the Coco path which, while having new twists and turns, still doesn't do anything to shake the very fabric of our characters' personalities. It seems like Type-Moon's struggling with this same feat in Fate / Stay Night since we are seeing historic deviances like Shirou having UBW dreams instead of Fate dreams and having a mana-line fed from the Ryudou Temple to his bedroom in UBW but not in Fate.
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Old 07-31-2010, 10:13 PM   #39
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Okay, so, I absolutely love Chibi Ilya in the Tiger Dojo, and I was most disappointed to discover that neither she nor any of the other characters are in my download of "Fate Stay Night CG set". (As an aside: anyone have a folder with a true, full rip of all the in-game art, including characters in all their various emotional states? )

So anyway, here I am, trying to find pictures of Chibi Ilya since I want to print them off and use them for drawing practice, and what do I discover but ...

The most awesome FSN pun ever!!!

Okay, so get this: Ilya and Fujimura-sensei have their own single, okay? And guess what the name of this song is? "We are Tora Buru"! Why this is awesome:

* toraburu is how you would sound out the English word "trouble" in Japanese
* tora is referencing Taiga (tora meaning "tiger")
* buru is referencing Ilya, since she is referred to as "Buruma-chan" ("Bloomers-chan") in the Tiger Dojo, and sometimes as "Loli Buru", due to the fact that she's wearing a gym t-shirt and gym bloomers.

So the duo really are Tora Buru ... but they're also toraburu (trouble). I love it. This is so, so awesome. God, I love Japanese. ^_^
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Old 08-01-2010, 12:07 AM   #40
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There are more puns like that in store as long as you read he omake material, I believe. Stuff in F/ha as well.

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But if memory serves, isn't she at her best in Heaven's Feel?
No, she gets the most screen-time in UBW. She's alive for less time than in the other two routes, but appears longer than she did in Fate, yet less than UBW.

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But the fact that Shirou isn't sharing dreams with Saber anymore, for instance, is something which makes me go, "Huh? But wait a second ... shouldn't that be happening regardless of the timeline?" It's moments like these where I think Ever17 does a much better job at exploring alternate timelines. Nothing that happens in the You path contradicts information in the Sora path. Nothing in the Tsugumi path contradicts information in the Sara path. They're just different paths with different sights to see. And then they all come together for the Coco path which, while having new twists and turns, still doesn't do anything to shake the very fabric of our characters' personalities. It seems like Type-Moon's struggling with this same feat in Fate / Stay Night since we are seeing historic deviances like Shirou having UBW dreams instead of Fate dreams and having a mana-line fed from the Ryudou Temple to his bedroom in UBW but not in Fate.
Supposedly, Shirou being less impressed at a woman entering his life has something to do with it. It's most explainable away in HF.

Avalon's influence at least is still prevalent, although that won't be the case forever.
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Old 08-01-2010, 01:38 PM   #41
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Souichirou ripped off half of Saber's neck, it told me. Whether this was just the author of the games grossly exaggerating once again or not, I was still worried. Saber is about to die. Furthermore, I have not once picked Saber when given the choice between her and anyone else. And so for both of these reasons, when the game asked me, "Will you let Tohsaka handle Kuzuki-sensei while you rescue Saber? or will you leave Saber to be devoured by Caster while you back Tohsaka up?", I opted to defend Saber. "For once," I thought, "we'll place priority on Saber."

And then ...

Tohsaka had her head punched off. D:

Tiger Stamp #19, earned. -.-;
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Old 08-01-2010, 02:40 PM   #42
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It's not just FSN that was like this, Ever17 (for my run at least) in Takeshi's Route usually meant being cold to either Sora OR Tsugumi, because being nice to both (as Takeshi would, and was during Coco's Path) would land the player into the horrific Sora-Tsugumi Bad End.

UBW bothers me a bit in that you have to be rather cold to Saber, but...

(don't read this until after you actually see UBW itself)

Spoiler: show
Saber isn't completely cold to her Master. She still has lingering attachment to Shirou even as Rin's Servant because her strongest character is loyalty. It's not on the level of understanding they arrived at in Fate because there's tons of development that was skipped, but the feelings aren't reciprocated by Shirou in UBW.

I won't say anything about HF yet.


I really, really like Rin and Ilya as heroines, but I think Saber as the main heroine and Archer as the main antagonist work better than the combinations TYPE-MOON gave us in FSN.
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Old 08-01-2010, 02:44 PM   #43
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I still haven't gotten to UBW the moment. The last thing I just saw was Shinji talking to Gilgamesh ("Archer") in the underground area of the Matou estate where the bugs are. (And I only know the bugs' role with Sakura because of hentai doujinshi. ^^; Otherwise, as far as I would have known as a gamer, these bugs have nothing to do with Sakura and they're just gross bugs. Nothing's been mentioned yet about implantation.)

Edit-Update: Right now I'm in the middle of the part where Caster's busted into our home and taken Fuji-nee hostage.

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Old 08-01-2010, 06:37 PM   #44
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I wanted a higher-res version of the promotional poster than I'd been finding and I finally found it.
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Old 08-01-2010, 08:17 PM   #45
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In the words of Alfalfa from The Little Rascals ... (click!)

"YOU BENEDICT ARNOLD! YOU JUDAS PRIEST! THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT!"

Well, I guess I can't say the outcome is Archer's fault, per se, outside of the fact that it was his decision to make and he made it. But the first two lines still count.

Oh man. I really didn't see that coming. I expected he would betray Rin's orders, and only insofar as I expected that he would attempt to kill Shirou. But I had no idea that he would ... that he would ... wow, man. This was big. And bad. Poor Rin. And poor me: 'cause how am I ever going to look at Archer the same way again!?

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Old 08-01-2010, 09:46 PM   #46
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What's even more telling is in Fate and HF, he was always that desperate. But Shirou's actions in both routes stayed his hand.

In UBW, where Shirou is blindly pursuing his ideal, Archer loses it.

I'm not even sure where you are exactly -

Spoiler: show
Archer using Rule Breaker?
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Old 08-01-2010, 10:13 PM   #47
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Right now, Shirou and Rin are off to join forces with Ilya. (Yay Ilya! ) Meanwhile, Caster's identity as Medea was finally revealed, as well as the nature of her meeting Kuzuki and forming a contract with him.

I don't remember Archer ever being prepared to do in Fate what he did in UBW. And besides: you mention Shirou's blind pursuit of his ideal, but I feel like he was absolutely no different in that respect in Fate. Both the Fate Shirou and the UBW Shirou have tried to save all of the people all of the time. Both the Fate Shirou and the UBW Shirou have had difficulty, in the opinions of others, with valuing their own lives / with prioritizing their own safety before the safety of others.

Honestly, I feel like it isn't Shirou who has acted differently between the two routes and has thereby generated two different histories of events. No, it isn't Shirou who has acted differently: it's Caster. In Fate, she is less aggressive and as a consequence Shirou & company feel like all hope is not lost. They only have to deal with one enemy at a time, each of whom fails to form an allegiance with the other Masters and Servants. In UBW, Caster is much more aggressive and pro-active, and as such, Kuzuki Souichirou now controls four of the five surviving Servants (not counting Gilgamesh). It's very much a Lord of the Rings "we have a 0.00000001% chance of winning" hopeless scenario. This is why Archer acted differently: not because Shirou or Rin were any worse from how they were in Fate, but because Caster was so much better in this second timeline.
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Old 08-02-2010, 12:48 AM   #48
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I don't remember Archer ever being prepared to do in Fate what he did in UBW. And besides: you mention Shirou's blind pursuit of his ideal, but I feel like he was absolutely no different in that respect in Fate. Both the Fate Shirou and the UBW Shirou have tried to save all of the people all of the time. Both the Fate Shirou and the UBW Shirou have had difficulty, in the opinions of others, with valuing their own lives / with prioritizing their own safety before the safety of others.
Whenever Shirou approached Archer in Fate, he'd always get an "aura of hostility" and Archer would casually provide insight in an irritating or insulting way to Shirou. He was too weak to do anything about it that time around - by the time he was fully healed, he had to battle Berserker. His pejorative insight was about as bad as he could muster, and perhaps he felt that such interaction might have changed Shirou. Certainly, Archer took interest in Shirou's obsession with Saber, which is what's severely lacking in UBW.

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Honestly, I feel like it isn't Shirou who has acted differently between the two routes and has thereby generated two different histories of events. No, it isn't Shirou who has acted differently: it's Caster. In Fate, she is less aggressive and as a consequence Shirou & company feel like all hope is not lost. They only have to deal with one enemy at a time, each of whom fails to form an allegiance with the other Masters and Servants. In UBW, Caster is much more aggressive and pro-active, and as such, Kuzuki Souichirou now controls four of the five surviving Servants (not counting Gilgamesh). It's very much a Lord of the Rings "we have a 0.00000001% chance of winning" hopeless scenario. This is why Archer acted differently: not because Shirou or Rin were any worse from how they were in Fate, but because Caster was so much better in this second timeline.
This is actually due to behind the scenes stuff.

In Fate, Berserker attacked Ryuudoji after Saber was summoned and was driven off by Assassin (which is an incredible, incredible feat) but the infiltration weakens Caster, allowing Rider to infiltrate a few days later. Kuzuki retreats to the temple as defense, allowing Rider to get into her skirmish with Shirou at school.

As Shirou battles Rider, which Berserker/Ilya oversee, Gilgamesh attacks Ryuudoji. Kuzuki is killed by Gilgamesh and Assassin dies, while Caster flees. Her attack at Shirou's house was out of desperation as she was already being pursued by Gilgamesh.

In UBW, Berserker is weakened by his battle with Archer and so the assault on Ryuudoji doesn't happen. Kuzuki manages to kill Rider while she's snooping around the school, which causes Shinji to seek asylum with Kotomine, who then "gives" him Gilgamesh. Rider and Gilgamesh not attacking Ryuudoji allow Caster to be more aggressive with her attacks.
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Old 08-02-2010, 07:41 PM   #49
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Wow, I just saw the fight between Archer and Shirou a couple minutes ago. That was ... well, it was "wow. "

Now it's time to see how the hell Shirou plans to defeat Gilgamesh this time around. And I thought things looked bad in Fate! I don't see how he can survive this one, short of some supremely inane bullshit copout. But I hope to be pleasantly surprised.
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Old 08-03-2010, 01:05 PM   #50
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I just beat Unlimited Blade Works. I was pleased with the ending except for two major grievances. Does that mean I can still claim to have been pleased with it? ^^;; I don't know, 'cause these grievances are pretty big.

1. The explanation for how Shirou can beat Gilgamesh. I really didn't like this. It boils down to "Yes, the swords inside of Shirou's Reality Marble are one rank lower than the authentic weapons; but since Shirou can pull them out of the ground faster than Gilgamesh can pull his over his shoulders, it lends Shirou the advantage. Also, Gilgamesh is not skilled at close-range combat." What the fuck is this bullshit? XD First of all, pulling a sword out from the ground is significantly faster than pulling it out of a void behind one's self, now is it? That's a new one on me! How many seconds you shave off there, Shirou? One? A half? A tenth? Second of all, Gilgamesh is said to not be skilled at hand-to-hand combat ... for a Servant in the Archer-class! He's still a Servant, for Christ's sake. And he's still Gilgamesh. The Gilgamesh. The king of heroes. The two-thirds deity one-third mortal who almost achieved immortality. The one who has been on more adventures in his lifetime than Shirou has been on in three Fifth Holy Grail War paths combined . I'm supposed to believe that Shirou outranks Gilgamesh in swordsmanship? Give me a fucking break, man!

This whole time, I was thinking the explanation might have been something different. But nope. In the end, it was "UBW Reality Marble trumps Gilgamesh's Noble Phantasm." To me, that's bullshit. I was way happier with his defeat at Saber's hands in the Fate route where she used Avalon to defeat him. That at least was acceptable, if still a little wishy-washy.

2. The surprise return of Archer! What the fuck is this bullshit? Come on, guys! What the fuck? This is just dumb! Archer himself said that he only had one-tenth of his magical energy left pre-fight with Shirou eighteen or so hours ago. He then spent a significant portion of that energy fighting Shirou. He was subsequently skewered by Shirou. And if that wasn't mortal enough for a wound, he was then multi-skewered by Gilgamesh. WTF. You're telling me he survived this? You're telling me no one -- not Gilgamesh, not Tohsaka, not Saber -- no one noticed that he was still alive? They just left him to burn inside Castle Einzbern? And he didn't even do that!? That he magically rose from the ground and escaped the burning castle? Gimme a fucking break, man. Archer died in Castle Einzbern as far as I'm concerned. There is no excuse for the deus ex machina bullshit that Type-Moon pulled at the end of the UBW route by having Archer come back and save the day on both fronts! I mean, fuck: saving Shirou is bad, and destroying the Grail before Saber can destroy it is bad, too; but you're telling me he did BOTH!? With virtually no magical energy left, he made his way back to the Ryudou Temple, threw a sword at Gilgamesh's head, and showered the Holy Grail with a rain of arrow-blades? COME ON!


But seriously: aside from these two complaints, I really enjoyed the route.

On to Heaven's Feel! Meeeeeeeeeeow, Sakura! :3

Last edited by Talon87; 08-03-2010 at 01:07 PM.
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