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Old 02-16-2015, 05:57 PM   #76
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Hmm. The Slowbros are archetypal 4/5 for me in the present system. If they had one less weakness or two more resistances, a definite TL5 pairing.

Octillery would do well in TL5 and you could happily argue that Remoraid is a TL2 which is probably a sign that Octillary should go up.
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Old 02-24-2015, 05:12 PM   #77
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Okay so things have slowed down now that everybody's blown their loads. I know some people (Connor, Concept, Sneazey) made comprehensive lists that will be massive, if perhaps too massive. We've probably touched on most things but fuck may as well post 'em.
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Old 02-24-2015, 05:37 PM   #78
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We came to a pretty good conclusion based on one of Connor's lists and it was edited a little.
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Old 02-24-2015, 05:37 PM   #79
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Does it still have 136 changes?
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Old 02-24-2015, 05:52 PM   #80
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Old 02-24-2015, 08:24 PM   #81
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I will confer with everyone else and fully finalise my own personal list, then post it in here for community feedback. From there we'll take it back to LO forums and see what we agree/disagree with, and hopefully we'll have a comprehensive list of changes out as soon as humanly possible. Sorry for any inferred delay, folks!
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Old 02-24-2015, 08:44 PM   #82
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Okay so things have slowed down now that everybody's blown their loads. I know some people (Connor, Concept, Sneazey) made comprehensive lists that will be massive, if perhaps too massive. We've probably touched on most things but fuck may as well post 'em.
I'm about halfway through my fairly detailed list. Will get it knocked out as soon as I have a day with free time after work (so likely tomorrow or Friday).
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Old 03-01-2015, 11:47 AM   #83
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Okay so things have slowed down now that everybody's blown their loads. I know some people (Connor, Concept, Sneazey) made comprehensive lists that will be massive, if perhaps too massive. We've probably touched on most things but fuck may as well post 'em.
I got about halfway through making an enormous one before accepting how out of touch and lazy I am and giving up.
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Old 03-18-2015, 07:08 AM   #84
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So I understand that we want to balance out the meta at each TL and avoid what used to happen with almost literally every TL2 having Absol, Gyarados and uplevel Electabuzz but I feel like there's something of a risk of throwing the baby out with the bathwater - making it impossible for a TL2/3 to compete with a TL4/5 even if they're the better trainer purely because the pokemon they have access to are rubbish by comparison (particularly in terms of unevolvables which equiall doesn't help with). A lot of people will also find that their favourite pokemon is such a high TL that they're years away from getting it.

I have had a thought on this; let people buy a certain number (eg 3) of otherwise inaccessable mon for, say, 5 SP per level above the one the pokemon actually is. So foe example if a TL2 really wanted Ampharos (normally TL4); they could pay 5 SP to have an uplevel (so level 3) Ampharos, or 10 SP to have a level 2 Ampharos. This would mean that everyone could have a few more poweful mon to let them compete more evenly against higher levelled trainers, let people have access to their favourites that might otherwise be out of reach whilst still avoiding the overcentralisation problem where there were half a dozen things that everyone picked up because they were far and away the best things available at their TL.

This is kind of similar to uplevels at the moment but uplevels only give you access to one higher TL and are free. It could be integrated into the uplevel system; so a TL2 could get a TL3 mon as their uplevel for free, but pay X SP for an otherwise TL4 mon as their uplevel (but it would still be level 3, just in its level 4 evolution).
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Old 03-18-2015, 07:19 AM   #85
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Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of equiall highest? I think it is also perfectly fine to bring a higher TL down to the goober's level. People will still gravitate toward certain pokemon. Aerodactyl is going to be a crowd pleaser, Absol is going to be a crowd pleaser, and anything else that happens to be ridiculously good at that particular TL level. Very few trainers stick with the average/below average pokemon as their preferred choices and actually make them work. So at any given time, then those favorite will just happen to align with the ones that are the strongest at that TL.

Don't get me wrong, an uplevel dragonite sounds pretty amazing at tl4.

Edit: Cut off this special access once you reach tl4?

At TL3, you can pay that 10 SP, and for a while you will have the advantage to gain access to a single TL5 pokemon.

At TL4, you should be pretty well rounded in terms of choices and it gives reaching TL5 some merit.

edit2: If this system comes into fruition, then this uplevel that exist outside of the trainer's range should have some sort of disobedience clause if used on the same team as a mega pokemon. If it is to give access to a favorite, lets keep that as a pure though and not as a way to gain an unfair advantage against their own TL peers.

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Old 03-18-2015, 07:47 AM   #86
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Well the point of the level acquisitions changes is so that there aren't obvious strongest mon at a particular trainer level. Back when Absol/Gyarados were TL2 they were the obvious best mon available to TL2 trainers and TL2 trainers couldn't choose to instead get something that was just as good but TL4. In the old days it was "I want a TL4 standard mon, my only options are Absol or Gyarados". This would be "I want a TL4 standard mon, I can pay to pick up my favourite TL4 mon". That's a lot more variety and I feel like it'd be a lot more appealing to low TL trainers than just outright telling them "no you can't have your favourite mon for three more years unless you newbslay your way to TL5 super quickly" without breaking or overcentalising anything. Avoids the downside of the old days where you had like two pokemon choices if you wanted to compete with someone a higher TL, and the downsides of now where a TL2 just cannot compete with a TL4 (and also can't access favourites for years).

I'd kind of envisaged it as being able to say "Blastoise is TL4 acquisition. I'm paying 10 SP so as far as I'm concerned it's now a TL3 acquisition" a limited number of times and that you'd buy it for a specific, unchangeable mon rather than in general.
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Old 03-18-2015, 07:59 AM   #87
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Well the point of the level acquisitions changes is so that there aren't obvious strongest mon at a particular trainer level. Back when Absol/Gyarados were TL2 they were the obvious best mon available to TL2 trainers and TL2 trainers couldn't choose to instead get something that was just as good but TL4. In the old days it was "I want a TL4 standard mon, my only options are Absol or Gyarados". This would be "I want a TL4 standard mon, I can pay to pick up my favourite TL4 mon". That's a lot more variety and I feel like it'd be a lot more appealing to low TL trainers than just outright telling them "no you can't have your favourite mon for three more years unless you newbslay your way to TL5 super quickly" without breaking or overcentalising anything. Avoids the downside of the old days where you had like two pokemon choices if you wanted to compete with someone a higher TL, and the downsides of now where a TL2 just cannot compete with a TL4 (and also can't access favourites for years).

I'd kind of envisaged it as being able to say "Blastoise is TL4 acquisition. I'm paying 10 SP so as far as I'm concerned it's now a TL3 acqusition" a limited number of times and that you'd buy it for a specific, unchangeable mon rather than in general.
That last sentence could pose a challenge to a lot of trainers as it would leave a window for begging for a "special sale: change your super uplevel for x amount of days for free!"

I like the idea, I just don't think it should be freely available beyond TL3. At TL4, swim or sink at that point considering that you have access to at least 60% of the Pokemon available. 60% being a modest number.

To make the idea worthwhile as a long term investment and bear with me here:

Novice's Badge (10 SP) - The Novice Badge grants any trainer below TL3 to obtain a pokemon two levels above his own with xyz consequence. This passive badge has no effect passed TL3 and beyond the standard benefits of owning a badge.

-Turn the Novice Badge into a hybrid attachable that is nontransferable via the miscellaneous thread. This adds another layer of protection as the super uplevel will not be able to hold a token/item that could make that specific pokemon over centralizing and difficult to face for people of the same TL. Not all trainers will be referees, so we don't want to tip the odds too much in the favor of the ones that do referee.

They can opt to keep the badge for TL5 purposes, and once they get their own real badge, it can be reused for access to TL6.

This suggestion could also work for any trainer TL3 or below with a regular badge. Let's face it, if you earned a badge at that point, you earned the chance for this excellent opportunity to have a pokemon two levels above your own.

Spitballing of course, and in any direction the LOs are willing to take this, Concept's initial suggestion is an idea worth exploring.
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Old 03-18-2015, 08:07 AM   #88
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The point of it is that you pay to get the Pokemon that you want to have that extra evolutionary stage. It's "unchangeable" in that you can't just change your mind and switch say... Swampert with Sceptile if you're TL2. Not for free, anyway.

Basically, if you want to change your super!uplevel, you'll need to pay another 10 SP to get that one, but you'll lose the one you did prior to the change.

E.g. I have a Golett right now, and I pay 10 SP to have it become a Golurk.
But then I change my mind and think oh hey let's get Ludicolo instead!
I cough up another 10 SP to bring my Lombre up to Ludicolo, but I lose Golurk, making it become a Golett again. They remain at Level 3, but gain the evolutionary bonus and whatnot.
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Old 03-18-2015, 08:09 AM   #89
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The point of it is that you pay to get the Pokemon that you want to have that extra evolutionary stage. It's "unchangeable" in that you can't just change your mind and switch say... Swampert with Sceptile if you're TL2. Not for free, anyway.

Basically, if you want to change your super!uplevel, you'll need to pay another 10 SP to get that one, but you'll lose the one you did prior to the change.

E.g. I have a Golett right now, and I pay 10 SP to have it become a Golurk.
But then I change my mind and think oh hey let's get Ludicolo instead!
I cough up another 10 SP to bring my Lombre up to Ludicolo, but I lose Golurk, making it become a Golett again. They remain at Level 3, but gain the evolutionary bonus and whatnot.
"I'm paying 10 SP to transfer the novice badge"

It feels more organic to be via an item than its own entity and it keeps within ASB Canon. It marries the idea without it being completely out there in terms of how you obtained the pokemon. It tames the idea, and it does it's best to keep in line with not giving an unfair advantage over your peers. A TL2 with a Gyarados would do some serious harm against a TL1 peer who doesn't have the team to outright handle one. Imagine the same super uplevel Gyarados with a Birdkeeper's token. Let's face it, most TL2-TL3 and some TL4 are pro snipers who just wait out a challenge from a lower level trainer and beat them to the pulp for the purposes of "teaching" something.

It's a beautiful idea that could be easily morphed into something that would dampen competition. At the end of the day, some cynicism needs to go into the planning of new ideas and what could go wrong with them. In the advent that it is misused, it is still pretty fair to the other trainer who doesn't have time to referee.

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Old 03-18-2015, 08:24 AM   #90
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Thinking this through again, this is basically making the Silver Wing Badge purchasable. Although the changes are more that you pay 5 SP per level that the Pokemon needs to get to evolve. E.g. A TL2 needs to spend 20 SP to even use Snorlax. Which I find highly unlikely to go through of course But what am I saying? We're totally gonna limit this to two levels tops, aye?

Brb calling Sneeze on this matter *shot*
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Old 03-18-2015, 08:29 AM   #91
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Thinking this through again, this is basically making the Silver Wing Badge purchasable. Although the changes are more that you pay 5 SP per level that the Pokemon needs to get to evolve. E.g. A TL2 needs to spend 20 SP to even use Snorlax. Which I find highly unlikely to go through of course But what am I saying? We're totally gonna limit this to two levels tops, aye?

Brb calling Sneeze on this matter *shot*
They are not the same concept per say. Silver Wing Token does not take up your precious uplevel slot AND it grants the next evo stage. Hello equiall 1 Snorlax.
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Old 03-18-2015, 08:43 AM   #92
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So I understand that we want to balance out the meta at each TL and avoid what used to happen with almost literally every TL2 having Absol, Gyarados and uplevel Electabuzz but I feel like there's something of a risk of throwing the baby out with the bathwater - making it impossible for a TL2/3 to compete with a TL4/5 even if they're the better trainer purely because the pokemon they have access to are rubbish by comparison (particularly in terms of unevolvables which equiall doesn't help with). A lot of people will also find that their favourite pokemon is such a high TL that they're years away from getting it.

I have had a thought on this; let people buy a certain number (eg 3) of otherwise inaccessable mon for, say, 5 SP per level above the one the pokemon actually is. So foe example if a TL2 really wanted Ampharos (normally TL4); they could pay 5 SP to have an uplevel (so level 3) Ampharos, or 10 SP to have a level 2 Ampharos. This would mean that everyone could have a few more poweful mon to let them compete more evenly against higher levelled trainers, let people have access to their favourites that might otherwise be out of reach whilst still avoiding the overcentralisation problem where there were half a dozen things that everyone picked up because they were far and away the best things available at their TL.

This is kind of similar to uplevels at the moment but uplevels only give you access to one higher TL and are free. It could be integrated into the uplevel system; so a TL2 could get a TL3 mon as their uplevel for free, but pay X SP for an otherwise TL4 mon as their uplevel (but it would still be level 3, just in its level 4 evolution).
The point of it was that you can pay more SP to have it not be an uplevel, or use that uplevel slot and pay less SP.
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Old 03-18-2015, 11:49 AM   #93
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So, for an actual level acquisition change, how about making the Litwick line a 1-2-3 line? Chandelure is not great at all, and is barely even an upgrade from Lampent. Besides, Lampent isn't too great anyways and it feels more like a TL2 then a TL3. I love the line, but it really is a lower squad line then a higher squad line.
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Old 03-18-2015, 12:09 PM   #94
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I'm not entirely sure on Concept's idea but I just want to point out that:

A) Pre-evo favorites are a thing, and I know you know this because you really like Poliwhirl iirc. People's favorites aren't just limited to fully evolved Pokemon (in fact its somewhat common for fully evolved Pokemon to be less preferred than their pre-evo counterparts), and so I think your view of overall dissatisfaction is a bit skewed.

B) It doesn't take three years to get to a reasonable level. Most people generally will reach TL3 or 4 by about a year to a year and a half and that's not a bad benchmark at all honestly.

C) You still open up a bit of a can of worms in that stuff like Absol and Gyarados and no longer very out of reach for lower level trainers. Why should I use my up-level for a normal Pokemon when I can spend 10 SP (which is pretty easy to get right now) and get an Absol or a Gyarados? You are creating, again, the issues of the previous system but now with an arbitrary SP cost tacked on.

Those are just my contentions. I'm not necessarily against the idea as long as it proves to be balanced and gets newer people more involved in ASB.
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Old 03-18-2015, 12:20 PM   #95
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I think emi summed up my fears, which is why I would like to see an accomodation to all the things that I mentioned. Uplevel, incompatible with a mega on a team, occupies an item slot or cannot have an attachable item.
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Old 03-18-2015, 12:22 PM   #96
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Quite frankly all of those are completely irrelevant to the potential issues that arise. TL2 Gyarados was still frankly ridiculous without items and megas.
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Old 03-18-2015, 12:38 PM   #97
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I think you misunderstand what the problem with the previous system was Emi. When we sat down to do the first overhaul it had nothing to do with balance - Gyarados and Absol at TL2 didn't break anything, it's not like comp where stuff gets moved to Ubers because it's essentially unbeatable in OU - it was a problem of genericness in squad choices. One good mon does not win matches. Gyarados at TL2 was ridiculous not because it meant you automatically won things - it didn't, one mon does not a match win - but because everyone had one. The problem was that when people came to add mon there were a half a dozen obviously superior choices that everyone had at least three of and bought to every match. We wanted each individual TL to be fairly balanced so that when people levelled up they chose a wider variety of mon rather than sticking to the same few ones that should've been higher level. That was it. This doesn't bring that back.

Not everyone's favourites are TL4+ but you don't have access to about half the 'dex until then so a lot of people will. It's easy to forget for us now we're high TL the immense frustration of not having access to stuff that we really want, and also how long 1/5-2 years+ to get TL4 can be (and reaching TL4 in less than that iis exclusively the domain of newbieslaying. Dave and Cibbir are the only people who've ever pulled it off and not still been TL2 competence when they reached TL4).

Having put a little more thought into it my modified proposal is that by default, your uplevel can be chosen from the acquisitions one higher than your trainer level but that you can pay 10SP to select a named mon from the next level after that instead (so a TL2 would say "paying 10 SP to make Blastoise available as an uplevel", not "paying 10SP to get a TL4 uplevel"). To change mon you'd have to pay SP again, to stop people abusing it for access to everything. This would not change the actual level of your uplevel - a TL2 paying for Ampharos has a level 3 Ampharos as their uplevel, not a level 4 one. Would also mean that TL2's could only reach as high as TL4 mon through this, TL3's to TL5 etc so no TL2's packing Dragonite.
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Old 03-18-2015, 12:39 PM   #98
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I like Concept's idea in theory because using your favorites is a selling point of ASB and know how I'd implement it but I do fear that it's gonna become TL2s or 3s bringing Absol or Drapion to every match and that will raise hell for sure.

That said, moving the bonus uplevel slot from TL6 where it's useless to TL3 or 4 sounds like a good plan.

Edit: I feel like some numbers would be good here.
TL6: 6 Pokemon
TL5: 21 Pokemon
TL4: 111 Pokemon
TL3: 155 Pokemon
TL2: 105 Pokemon
TL1: 270 Pokemon

All under the current leveling system. At TL3 you have access to all but 27 Pokemon if you include uplevels. If, like many people, your favorite pokemon is a TL4, then put an uplevel towards it. Most people pick up their favorite as a pre-evo ASAP. If your favorite pokemon happens to be one of the top 30 in ASB, then I'm sorry but TL3s do not need a Dragonite or a Lapras.

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Old 03-18-2015, 12:50 PM   #99
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Imo the issue with the old system wasn't that people were bring a TL4 standard mon to TL2 matches but that they were all bringing the same TL4 standard mon to TL2 matches because Absol/Gyarados were the ones they could reach. I don't feel that one TL4 standard mon is going to break most TL2 matches - the way ASB works means there's a limit to how long one mon can last no matter how good it is. Idk, maybe people disagree with that but our main concern when we did the first acquisitions change was to balance out each TL to stop everyone picking the same few things when they got there.

Also we can restrict how far you can jump (say two levels, so TL2's can have at most a TL4 acquisition mon as an uplevel) then it stops the potentially most ridiculous limits like a TL2 packing Dragonite.
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Old 03-18-2015, 12:59 PM   #100
Stealthy
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Yeah, the 2 TL jump limit is one of the things I'd say as clear limits if this were to happen. 10-20 SP cost as well. Limit it to like 2 or 3 pokemon (amount of uplevels you have). The Novice Badge thing is unnecessary.
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