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Old 11-14-2014, 08:39 AM   #1
Jerichi
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Mewtwo Pokémon Intelligence

So I was going to talk with LOs to get feedback on this, but after a few days the only one to bite has been Shadow, who's unfortunately got some bias concerning this topic ATM. In the interest of keeping everything moving and involving the community in a pretty important mechanics definition, I thought it'd be smart to take this question to the people.

So, what we're discussing is the following:

1) How smart are Pokémon, on average? What level of complexity can they understand?

2) How well do they know attributes of moves used against them? Do they know types? Do they know SE/NVE? Can they identify threats? How well can they identify them?

3) How does this effect how they fight? What level of orders or reactions can they take/make based off this information?

Et cetera.

Discuss.
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Old 11-14-2014, 08:55 AM   #2
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While forum-based games go slow, ASB is an interpretation of fighting. In the middle of a fight pokemon have lots of things on their minds and not all that much time to process it. They're not computers. I'd never ref them paying any attention to the opposing trainers orders, and whilst they probably would know SE/NVE and be able to identify most moves coming towards them I very much doubt they'd have the time process that information and use it to make an informed decision on stuff that's flying towards their face right now.

IRL if someone makes a throwing something motion in my direction, I flinch. There's no time to assess whether they're actually throwing something or just making the motion, whether the thing they're throwing is going to genuinely hurt or whether it's a soft foam ball or something. All the time I have is "throwing motion = flinch". Pokemon are trained and disciplined so their default reaction is the more useful "follow orders" rather than "flinch", but there's no way they have time to assess the incoming move in any meaningful way for all but the slowest attacks (think Hyper Beam, Last Resort).

I wouldn't consider pokemon to have the time, midfight, to process anything more complicated than "dodge if it attacks".
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Old 11-14-2014, 08:55 AM   #3
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I would much prefer ASB to have much smarter pokemon. But unfortunately pokemon are generally considered mostly unintelligent.

I mean, honestly, there's no reason Pokemon shouldn't be walking encyclopaedias about quite a few things. A Grass Type maybe can't really differentiate Rock Smash and Brick Break(though Fighting types should) but I honestly see no reason why almost every pokemon shouldn't be able to know what everything from Thunderbolt to Searing Shot looks like. Why shouldn't they, they actually live in the world, pokemon use all those moves all the time. And honestly people mix up the problem of super-idle-dodge with this but that makes little sense; I know a rifle is dangerous but I can't dodge a bullet.

Rant aside, because I doubt this particular status quo of ASB will be changed. I generally ref and see pokemon reffed as having a mentality of a five-year old intelligence-wise- you know fire, you know water, ice, electricity, but they can't differentiate between Shock Wave and Thunder Wave as is. They can follow basic if orders, but anything that would severely confuse a focused five year old is off limits for most pokemon. On the other hand, when it comes to threats, it's a bit different because we're talking actual survival. I think they tend to err on the safe side and thus are comparatively easy to fake out in general, and in general consider pokemon with type advantages to be threats.

Generally they don't think for themselves a _whole_ lot but I'm of the view that they don't dodge every attack because they're not intelligent, they don't dodge every attack because they're trained- by trainers- to save their energy and also because they're slightly winded from using their own attacks. In one-move rounds or in extremely "scary" cases(i.e Mantine facing a Zap Cannon) they have more than enough energy saved to attempt dodges.
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Old 11-14-2014, 11:24 AM   #4
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It's called ASB and I think we should go with the anime's interpretation on this one.

As for me, I'm inclined to say "Looking at a battle from the outside is different from looking at it from the inside." If you've ever played a sport, you'd understand - when people talk about "court sense," that's a really huge advantage that the smartest and most experienced players in the NBA have over each other. Knowing where everything and everyone on the field is at any given time is absolutely vital to playing a good game of basketball, because that's how you strategize and that's how you execute your plans in real time.

If you're a superpowered animal who has been shown to understand human speech, and you're sitting on the sidelines? If the orders are conveyed to the audience somehow, yes you will know what is going on, and you can see the battlefield and understand what is going on. They can also focus on something for quite some time, which is your biggest indication that most of them, though having a childlike intelligence, are probably somewhere in the 10-13 range rather than the 4-5 range. And then you have exceptions like Alakazam which should not be behaving like a child at all.

When you're down on the battlefield it is a TOTALLY different situation. While I'm not advocating that the TL system factor in how much experience a Pokemon has had and thus up its "intelligence" accordingly (well actually I technically am, because it's a concept that we don't have that we probably should), I do think that even without saying "Pokemon are 5 year olds!" we can have situations where creatures don't react to complicated situations.

Personally, if I'm standing there and I'm told to watch out for ground attacks, even if that Sand-Attack was somehow successful, I'm not going to start Biding it. Even a 5 year old would be able to make the distinction between "attack that is going to hurt" and "attack that is not going to hurt."
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Old 11-14-2014, 03:57 PM   #5
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Pokemon intelligence should grow as they grow in level, and evolution. I agree with a lot of what Shuckle is saying and that Pokemon are aware of what is dangerous to them and what is not and even if they are in the heat of the battle, they can still determine what will hurt and what will not.

So as far as ranges for age:
Baby: 4-5
Basic: 7-8
Stage 1: 10-12
Stage 2: 14-15

Baby could even be lower but I'd say that's where I would stack them. Maybe you could do it by level instead but it's not meant to be exact as it's more for reference but that's my 2 cents.
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Old 11-14-2014, 04:03 PM   #6
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Where the current ruling (pokemon are idiots) is 1 and Mozzrules is 10 we should be something like a 6. Now that we've upped type energy so that you often get multiple shots with off type we need to make it ok to ref idle partial dodges more. The anime clearly shows that pokemon aren't that thick but that they're very much not sentient. They get locked up in fear, they get dazed and confused, they do not knoe what moves are super effective against them.
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Old 11-14-2014, 04:03 PM   #7
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Also levels and evolution should be increasing their intelligence and experience.
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Old 11-14-2014, 04:28 PM   #8
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Now that we've upped type energy so that you often get multiple shots with off type we need to make it ok to ref idle partial dodges more.
Did I miss something? I thought the HP ruling (one move, one use, increased a little for additional moves) was effectively the standard now. I certainly wouldn't give anything more than one use of say, signal beam if that were their only bug move (which is the case for a lot of stuff because signal beam is ASB's primary STI).
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Old 11-14-2014, 04:30 PM   #9
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Pokemon are typically reffed with enough off-type to use Thunderbolt twice instead of the previous standard of 1 HB.
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Old 11-14-2014, 04:33 PM   #10
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What blaze said. Two Ice Beams is the Kush standard
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Old 11-14-2014, 04:37 PM   #11
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What? The previous standard of one HB was too high even in 6/9 and basically broke 4/6. A big chunk of the reason 4/6 didn't work was that stuff had proportionally way too much type energy so even "neutral" match-ups ended in 3-4 rounds of typespam, why would it make sense to up it when we upped health?

This defeats the entire point of switching to 6/9 in the first place.
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Old 11-14-2014, 05:04 PM   #12
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Because it ups diversity. There's still a power creep but we're now at the point where this kind of thing is how we should fix it.

This isn't official by the way. It's just the best answer.
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Old 11-14-2014, 05:07 PM   #13
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Let's not have the type energy conversation here because it'll derail the intelligence thread. My apologies if I started to derail it, this is a thread that needs to happen.
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Old 11-14-2014, 05:09 PM   #14
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There's a thread for that right here. I'm interested in this conversation as well, but it should happen in its thread so we can keep things clear.
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Old 11-19-2014, 03:07 PM   #15
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1) How smart are Pokémon, on average? What level of complexity can they understand?

On average, Pokemon should not be that smart. On the same token, they should have an approximate knowledge of all moves. I will explain that below. If a round is only 30 seconds long, complexity should be kept at its minimum which would explain why they can only handle one if order per round.

2) How well do they know attributes of moves used against them? Do they know types? Do they know SE/NVE? Can they identify threats? How well can they identify them?

Pokemon should not be able to know attributes of move all to well. After reading through some signatures from members around ASB, some moves have altered typing. A pokemon should not assume a move will always be of the same attribute each and every time. With the new Twister rewrite, this notion is further supported as they will not innately know if they are going to face a dragon or flying typed version.

Pokemon should not know what is SE/NVE. Signatures have a wide array of modifications to moves, including their type charts being slightly modified. Pokemon should not be fully aware of a signature training because those traits are unique to the pokemon that has it. Therefore, everything should be interpreted as a threat with the same low probability of enacting on a dodge on their own. The only tall tell sign for identifying something as a threat would be charge time. A Full Charge Hyper Beam or Focus Punch should definitely be deemed threatening giving the charge time, putting a Pokemon on high alert to give an example. Something like Swift compromises the ability of a Pokemon to gauge how threatening the move might be given the rapid nature of the attack.

Since Pokemon have an approximate knowledge of all moves, they should be able to identify single moves if the trainer has asked the Pokemon to be vigilant for that single move. They should not be able to identify moves within the full spectrum of a single type. That is, being asked to watch out for x type of move is a tall order for a Pokemon to fully digest in the span of 30 seconds.

3) How does this effect how they fight? What level of orders or reactions can they take/make based off this information?

If a pokemon is ask to be watchful to Protect/dodge a for Superpower as an example, the Pokemon should have a vague idea of what Superpower is and anticipate the use of Protect or to dodge in time if fatigue levels are equal.

Asking a pokemon to protect/remain vigilant against a specific type should not work at all. An example would be for a pokemon to protect against fighting moves. That should not work at all. With moves such as Mega Punch, Elemental Punches, Mega Kick intermixing with Dynamic Punch, Hi Jump Kick, and the likes, it should be hard for a pokemon to differentiate what is of the type being asked to protect and what is not.
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