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Old 11-02-2014, 09:34 AM   #1
DaveTheFishGuy
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Relicanth Ref Evaluations

Right, with the announcement on new Ref Grades, we're left in something of a pickle because while similar on the surface, the new system is actually quite different to the current one. So how do we decide which refs deserve what grade? Well, that's easy. You're going to tell us.

To those unfamiliar, normally Ref Evals revolve around you lot telling us if you've had any refs you think are doing a better or worse job than their grade indicates, and we can bump them up or down respectively.

But this time is different. Due to everyone needing a regrade to fall in line with the new system, we need feedback on every ref, no matter if you think they're doing a passable job or not.

Given the scale of this we'll be leaving it open a little longer than usual. There is a two week window for you to get your thoughts in, and then the LOs will discuss the grades in the secret back room before posting up new grades at the end of the month. Just PM myself or Jeri (though it doesn't matter which) to give us your opinions.

We would prefer that everyone, yes, everyone, give their thoughts on every ref they can think of. Failing to do so will not exactly improve your standing in the League, so if you're aspiring to a position like Gym Leader or future LO, make sure you get your thoughts in.

As a reminder, the new grades are defined thusly:


A grade referee: Almost infallible in matters of what happens during a round. May ref any match, including a Grand Melee. May ref up to 15 matches in total.

B grade referee: Correct on most all matters of what happens during a round. May ref any match excepting a Grand Melee. May ref up to 12 matches in total.

C grade referee: A thorough understanding of the rules and able to state what happens with clarity. May ref any match excepting a Grand Melee or realistic battles. May ref up to 10 matches in total.

D grade referee: Solid understanding of the rules but needs experience before joining the ranks of the great. Can ref standard matches, and Gym matches with permission, but cannot ref 'exhibition' matches, battles already in progress or realistic battles. May ref up to 10 matches in total.

Ungraded: May ref standard, slapstick matches only, with permission from both battlers, except for battles already in progress, may ref up to 10 matches in total.



+: Can purchase legend matches and six-packs of squad slots for 5 SP less, Ref Cap increased by three battles.

±: Can purchase six-packs of squad slots for 5 SP less.

-: No discount, Ref Cap decreased by three battles.


Please remember to suggest letter and +/- separately. The former is quality, the latter is speed (and don't use the plusminus symbol that is only there as a placeholder really).

Happy voting!
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Old 11-02-2014, 08:52 PM   #2
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What about inactive refs? Ex. Me
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Old 11-02-2014, 09:08 PM   #3
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Well I'm going down to a C- at least. Not that I've got any issues with that, I'm never going to try and ref more than 7 battles at once.
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Old 11-04-2014, 10:16 AM   #4
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Okay, this is a pretty tooting-own-horn post but I need to say something.

We need an S rank.

Four ranks aren't enough to properly grade people. In the current system, people like Dave and Jeri are going to be A, meaning that either one of two things will happen:

a) People like me(if I'm included) Sneezey, Kairne, Deebs, Connor etc are going to be B, and people like Schaden and Lanturn are going to end up C. This isn't very good simply because I personally see no reason why the Cs in this tier should not be able to ref Realistic, and also simply because the psychological factor of being C is just...it feels wrong for those refs to be C.

or,

b) Everybody I listed goes to B and there's kind of a pretty massive skill difference within the B rank.

I'll admit it freely; this suggestion is more based on the cognitive dissonance if it's not there rather than logic in itself, but having an S rank would let people like Dave and Jeri be easily in S and leave room for the better Bs like Kairne and Sneezey to be A and a proper hierarchy in B and C. It'd mean that you could actually figure out how good someone is looking at their grade without really having to think to yourself "Oh yeah they changed it didn't they".
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Old 11-04-2014, 10:27 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangeetsuper View Post
Okay, this is a pretty tooting-own-horn post but I need to say something.

We need an S rank.

Four ranks aren't enough to properly grade people. In the current system, people like Dave and Jeri are going to be A, meaning that either one of two things will happen:

a) People like me(if I'm included) Sneezey, Kairne, Deebs, Connor etc are going to be B, and people like Schaden and Lanturn are going to end up C. This isn't very good simply because I personally see no reason why the Cs in this tier should not be able to ref Realistic, and also simply because the psychological factor of being C is just...it feels wrong for those refs to be C.

or,

b) Everybody I listed goes to B and there's kind of a pretty massive skill difference within the B rank.

I'll admit it freely; this suggestion is more based on the cognitive dissonance if it's not there rather than logic in itself, but having an S rank would let people like Dave and Jeri be easily in S and leave room for the better Bs like Kairne and Sneezey to be A and a proper hierarchy in B and C. It'd mean that you could actually figure out how good someone is looking at their grade without really having to think to yourself "Oh yeah they changed it didn't they".
Said this to Geet before, but I second this proposal. Functionally, a S rank would be analogous and pretty much the same to the current A+ and A ranking, but creating a S rank makes people less hesitant to move the truly outstanding B refs, like Sneazey and SS, into the A rank echelon. And it breaks this mentality of "all current B- refs must go down to C". Also, lol at name-dropping me and Lanturn. But yeah, I will admit that there is some great skill difference even within the current B-s, and this proposal might help break up the massive clumps in the C+/B-/B group.
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Old 11-04-2014, 10:28 AM   #6
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I think four is fine. I'm personally inclined to space it so that whilst the majority of refs fall into B and C, there are more D's than A's. Given I'm only looking at like 4-6 A's I think having a special LO class is a bit indulgant. Part of the purpose of this restructuring is so we can and will bring some non-LO's into the A rank, because it's been too long and there are some who on a reffing perspective deserve to be put in the same category as Dave and Jeri.

There will be some range within each rank, but we're not here to try to exactly pinpoint skill to a minute level. The new ranks are there to say "hey, this person can probably handle realistic stuff fine but would struggle with a GM". I see C as being the default rank - can handle the usual stuff fine, but might struggle with some of the more complicated judgement calls that come up in realistic.
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Old 11-04-2014, 10:44 AM   #7
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There are like three active refs that should be given D's simply because if you ref often enough you gain experience super rapidly. But anyway that's not really my point. The thing is that if you want to do it this way you really need to tell people stuff like "A won't be LO reserved anymore" because well over the years of ASB that's practically what it's turned into and people will be unwilling to shove people up anyway.

But the way that the alphabet ranking system works in most people's minds, I think adding an S rank will make it more intuitive to use, but maybe that's just me.
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Old 11-04-2014, 11:03 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangeetsuper View Post
The thing is that if you want to do it this way you really need to tell people stuff like "A won't be LO reserved anymore" because well over the years of ASB that's practically what it's turned into and people will be unwilling to shove people up anyway.
We don't actually pay the slightest bit of attention to what specific grades people recommend for people. We pay attention to stuff like "yeah this guy is great" or "this guy is struggling somewhat". We're not going to give someone a B if lots of people are like "this guy is fantastic B+!" - if they're genuinely that good, we'll give him an A even if no-one recommended that grade for them. Besides which I feel like overall quality has improved of late so we actually have more people deserving of new!A than we need LO's (whereas it has historically been the other way around and thus anyone likely to get an A grade has been bought onboard).

As for D grade, exhibition matches and taking over matches in progress can both actually be quite complicated so it's no real shame nor that unlikely that there'll be a number of people who would struggle with it. D is not a bargain basement "this person is terrible" grade. I imagine newly tested people will be pretty evenly split between C and D, while C will end up being the kind of default grade for people who've been reffing long enough to get the hang of things but not yet necessarily demonstrated all the complicated judgement calls to keep up with realistic. B is a "we trust your judgement to be solid and mostly right in situations where there's no clear cut or obvious answer, but you might occassionally make a wrong call or forget something", and A is "you pretty much never have to fix anything".
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Old 11-04-2014, 05:32 PM   #9
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Pretty sure I initially drafted a system that had an F grade but through revision we ended up with what we have. I do agree that the current scale is probably one shy of being wide enough particularly given that A will most likely end up being as meaningless as it is now.
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Old 11-04-2014, 06:13 PM   #10
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If we wanted a grade as meaningless as A is now, I wouldn't have objected to S purely and exclusively on the basis that it'd be as meaningless as A is now.

The old system essentially had five grades we actually used (C through B+) and when grading tests we didn't really ever need that much specification, I think four grades for ~thirty to forty refs is fine. It's only like seven or eight people per grade, we don't really need more minute detail than that.
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Old 11-04-2014, 08:58 PM   #11
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Perhaps you're right. We did have that weird thing where we ostensibly had five or six grades split over two letters. It was idiotic which is one reason I'm glad we're moving yotthis system. Personally I'd still prefer to have the top grade (A or S it doesn't matter) and the bottom grade and then three in between but I'm not the one that has to implement it.

Also sorry for implying that this process won't work out, a careless choice of words. My gripes with the existing system are well known but I expect they'll largely melt away as we progress.
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Old 11-16-2014, 10:54 AM   #12
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Nudging this in case anyone else has any opinions they want to get in before we look at them. Chop chop!
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Old 12-02-2014, 01:44 PM   #13
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Right then, having had some decent discussion and a good bit of input, I'm please to unveil the new list of ref grades. Enjoy!


Apollo77: B+
BlazeVA: B
Celebii151: B
Charminions: B
Connor: A+
Darth Takuya: C+
DaveTheFishGuy: A+
Dream Breaker: B-
Extroph: C+
Jerichi: A
Kairne: A-
KamenAeons: C
Kindrindra: B-
Kingothestone: B
Kusari: B-
Lanturn: C
Lucario188: B
Machamp-X: D
Mean Mr. Snorlax: D-
MedMana: D-
Mew the Gato: C+
Miror: C
Myles Fowl II: D
Rangeet: B-
RealMrGame10: D-
ROFLMAO: C
Rotomotorz: C
Scadenfreude: B+
Sneezey12: A-
Sparkbeat: C
Trot Away: C


Thanks to all who sent in feedback. This should account for every active ref we have, so if you see yourself missing then feel free to message me. Inactive folks who reappear will have to take a quick de-rusting test to be given a grade that fits, similar to new refs.

And with this concluded, the new ref grades and the bonuses that apply are considered live. Make good use of them, happy reffing!

Last edited by DaveTheFishGuy; 12-02-2014 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 12-02-2014, 01:49 PM   #14
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Congratulations in particular go out to our three new A grades.
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Old 12-02-2014, 01:51 PM   #15
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Yeah this is good stuff. Should be fun times ahead!

Obligatory thanks for the work too.
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Old 12-02-2014, 01:52 PM   #16
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Nice
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Old 12-02-2014, 04:17 PM   #17
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Cool deal. Congrats to all who jumped up
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Old 12-02-2014, 04:17 PM   #18
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A grade isn't LOs? What is this???

Thanks for the new grades Dave-o. I'll work on getting to A grade to make the collective veteran members die of shock.
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Old 12-02-2014, 04:20 PM   #19
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Dave this is terrible. Where is Muyo's A--.
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Old 12-02-2014, 04:22 PM   #20
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Egh. Not proud of slipping, but as soon as I get an iPhone I can ref when my muse (and common sense) are still with me. In the meantime, D diesnt slaughter me outright, so I can live with its bounds.
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Old 12-02-2014, 04:27 PM   #21
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Egh. Not proud of slipping, but as soon as I get an iPhone I can ref when my muse (and common sense) are still with me. In the meantime, D diesnt slaughter me outright, so I can live with its bounds.
You did not slip. The old C description is more in line with the new D description. You will have plenty of time to improve down the road. Thank you for the efforts of Dave and anyone else who participated in the grading process.
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Old 12-02-2014, 05:34 PM   #22
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A solid C, huh? I've been doing a shabbier job than I expected. Just as I feared...Looks I still have a lot to learn. At least It wasn't a full-letter downgrade...Thank you for sparing me that much!
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Old 12-02-2014, 05:46 PM   #23
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If you only went down a letter you haven't been downgraded.
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Old 12-02-2014, 06:11 PM   #24
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People really need to re-read everything to do with the new grading system before they comment about being downgraded.
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Old 12-02-2014, 07:47 PM   #25
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So the ± bonuses apply to those with a solid grade right?
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