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Old 09-11-2014, 07:18 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kairne View Post
I'd like to point out that the OP also states

"People must be currently actively reffing to benefit from these discounts."
Yeah but that kind of thing really doesn't stop someone from coming back, reffing a single round of a match, and then using their bonuses.
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Old 09-11-2014, 07:19 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercutio View Post
Now that aside, your argument would be stronger if we weren't giving out tangible benefits for holding grades now. Their grade is now relevant even if they don't do any reffing.
Nope:
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Originally Posted by DaveTheFishGuy View Post
People must be currently actively reffing to benefit from these discounts.
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Originally Posted by Mercutio View Post
It explicitly says in the original post of this thread that A grades will not be moved down.
No, what it says is that by default x grades under the current system will translate to y grades under the new system, and then ref evals will take place. Nothing special from protecting A grades from being demoted. Really, you're just inventing things now.

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Even if it did not, I specifically remember you saying that we wouldn't be demoting any A grades when I brought it up last time. You can go read it in the LO sub forum.
This, too, is just a straight up lie.
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Old 09-11-2014, 07:22 PM   #53
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I took it to mean Evals and the rehaul would both work and take effect simultaneously, and that As will not be moved down at all.
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Old 09-12-2014, 02:14 PM   #54
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My only question is what happens to refs like me and a few others who have received their grades literally over the last week or so? Or will be receiving their grades as soon as they submit their Ref Tests (i.e. the people from the Reffing Schools like SoS, Myles, etc.). My understanding was that people who literally just got their grades wouldn't be included in immediate Evals since we've been graded only very recently, but the OP suggests that all refs, regardless of whether they got their grades yesterday or will receive them in two days, would be Evaled.

I'm a bit perturbed because I'm quite happy with my current grade and am reffing more than 10 matches at the moment. The thought of having to drop one of these matches and then be immediately switched down to C+ seems a bit sudden. Couldn't the refs who will be receiving their grades over the next week and the ones who've been graded in August/September be exempt? So that the people for whom we're reffing can get a better understanding of who we are as refs in anticipation of the Evaluations?
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Old 09-12-2014, 02:19 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Schadenfreude View Post
My only question is what happens to refs like me and a few others who have received their grades literally over the last week or so? Or will be receiving their grades as soon as they submit their Ref Tests (i.e. the people from the Reffing Schools like SoS, Myles, etc.). My understanding was that people who literally just got their grades wouldn't be included in Evals, but the OP suggests that all refs, regardless of whether they got their grades yesterday or will receive them in two days, would be Evaled.

I'm a bit perturbed because I'm quite happy with my current grade and am reffing more than 10 matches at the moment. The thought of having to drop one of these matches and then be immediately switched down to C+ seems a bit sudden. Couldn't the refs who will be receiving their grades over the next week and the ones who've been graded in August/September be exempt?
I don't think the previous definition for B- fits in with the new definition for B. The new C grade seems to be in line with B-. If you are C grade, it will most likely drop to D. People in the B/B+ range fit the new description for B. As for the newer trainers, I think Dave will give a grade based on the old system and revisit the grade when ref evals roll around for the new system. He will probably grant most of us in between C through B-, and when the evals roll around he will adjust accordingly.

EDIT: I basically reiterated what the OP already reflects.
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Old 09-12-2014, 02:20 PM   #56
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I agree with the newest batch of refs, they obviously haven't been reffing long enough.

Schaden however, you've been reffing for a while. I would not say you are exempt. I don't know about anyone else but your situation isn't the same and I think the majority of ASB knows how well you ref.
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Old 09-12-2014, 02:21 PM   #57
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I find it unlikely that the implementation of the grades will force referees to actively drop any battles. Chances are they'll be unable to pick up any more matches until they're below their designated cap.
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Old 09-12-2014, 02:23 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Takuya View Post
I don't think the previous definition for B- fits in with the new definition for B. The new C grade seems to be in line with B-. If you are C grade, it will most likely drop to D. People in the B/B+ range fit the new description for B. As for the newer trainers, I think Dave will give a grade based on the old system and revisit the grade when ref evals roll around for the new system. He will probably grant most of us in between C through B-, and when the evals roll around he will adjust accordingly.
Yes, but C+/B- is the default grade for people from the reffing test. Generally, people aren't given B or above, since B- is considered to be the unspoken upperceiling for people who do the test. Not all B-s or C+s are made the same, and the reasons why newly graded people are traditionally excluded from Evals is because people haven't had enough time to get used to them as refs and give honest feedback (positive or negative).

For example, Connor is a B- and will probably be kept at B or B- under this new paradigm, because he's had enough time for people to appreciate his reffings and would be Evals accordingly. I've only been reffing with my new grade for a bit more than a week, and people haven't had a chance to fully get used to my reffings, although I've received positive feedback so far.

Blaze, not really. I didn't submit my test for a while because of life issues. I've only really been "officially" reffing ever since I got my grade. I'd say that my reffings now are much better than what they were before. At least in my opinion, in terms of quality, length, and speed.
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Old 09-12-2014, 02:25 PM   #59
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You've been reffing unofficially for quite a while, its the same deal. Whether you're matches are unofficial or official means nothing.
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Old 09-12-2014, 02:26 PM   #60
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You realise the +/- sign denotes speed under the new system, right?
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Old 09-12-2014, 02:26 PM   #61
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Yes, but C+/B- is the default grade for people from the reffing test. Generally, people aren't given B or above, since B- is considered to be the unspoken upperceiling for people who do the test. Not all B-s or C+s are made the same, and the reasons why newly graded people are traditionally excluded from Evals is because people haven't had enough time to get used to them as refs and give honest feedback (positive or negative).

For example, Connor is a B- and will probably be kept at B or B- under this new paradigm, because he's had enough time for people to appreciate his reffings and would be Evals accordingly. I've only been reffing with my new grade for a bit more than a week, and people haven't had a chance to fully get used to my reffings, although I've received positive feedback so far.

Blaze, not really. I didn't submit my test for a while because of life issues. I've only really been "officially" reffing ever since I got my grade. I'd say that my reffings now are much better than what they were before. At least in my opinion, in terms of quality, length, and speed.
Let me reiterate. If Dave awards one of the currently unranked referees a B- grade, then when the new system takes effect he will defacto rank them down to C. So on and so forth.
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Old 09-12-2014, 02:28 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by blazeVA View Post
You've been reffing unofficially for quite a while, its the same deal. Whether you're matches are unofficial or official means nothing.
My case is unique, even by Jeri and Dave's terms. It's because I didn't submit that test for a goddarn long time, and family issues had plagued me. But ever since my new grade, even you can see that my reffings are fresh, daily, and high-quality of between 500-600 words. I just don't feel particularly good that I'll be evaled and possibly dropped a grade when I've only had a week to enjoy my current grade.

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You realise the +/- sign denotes speed under the new system, right?
Did not know that. Still, I simply want to enjoy my grade for longer than a week. Other new refs wouldn't have to be regraded so quickly, so I don't see why I can't be in the category of people like Myles and SoS, who would be graded soon and possibly excluded from the Evals process. Also, would the bumping up/down that Dave mentioned be automatic? Or will certain exceptions be made for people like Connor, who would probably receive enough positive feedback to not drop from B-?
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Old 09-12-2014, 02:28 PM   #63
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Also, as stated in the first post, the +/_/- system is going to be retooled to denote activity: Saying that Cibbir would be regraded to an anything- is simply hilarious, so I think you might have missed that part of the proposed changes.

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Old 09-12-2014, 02:30 PM   #64
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My case is unique, even by Jeri and Dave's terms. It's because I didn't submit that test for a goddarn long time, and family issues had plagued me. But ever since my new grade, even you can see that my reffings are fresh, daily, and high-quality of between 500-600 words. I just don't feel particularly good that I'll be evaled and possibly dropped a grade when I've only had a week to enjoy my current grade.
You will not be dropped a grade. Your current grade is reflective of C grade under the new system. Think of a bell curve: The new system has shifted the definitions by one standard deviation away.
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Old 09-12-2014, 02:30 PM   #65
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My case is unique, even by Jeri and Dave's terms. It's because I didn't submit that test for a goddarn long time, and family issues had plagued me. But ever since my new grade, even you can see that my reffings are fresh, daily, and high-quality of between 500-600 words. I just don't feel particularly good that I'll be evaled and possibly dropped a grade when I've only had a week to enjoy my current grade.
No its not. Whether you had a week to enjoy your grade is irrelevant, you've been reffing for a while now and just because you didn't send in your ref test doesn't mean you should get a free ride.
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Old 09-12-2014, 02:32 PM   #66
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So new refs complaining about not wanting to be Eval'd are being quite stupid about it unless they have something to actually fear from Evals. Yes, there is a very good chance they will be placed in the C range, but in the meantime they should be trying to do what they can to get that + and not a - so they get benefits. If they don't want to be Eval'd they're going to bet moved down to C anyway because C+/B- under the current system equates to C in the new one.

Also, B- is not the unspoken cap for the ref test. There have been plenty of refs who have gotten B out of the gate and even a few B+. But these people are the ones who do extremely well on the test as opposed to average, which is what C+/B- is.
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Old 09-12-2014, 02:32 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Darth Takuya View Post
You will not be dropped a grade. Your current grade is reflective of C grade under the new system. Think of a bell curve: The new system has shifted the definitions by one standard deviation away.
I understand that, but saying that I'll automatically be a C, regardless of how often I ref now or how much effort I currently put into them compared to before, doesn't make the whole situation that much more palatable.
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Old 09-12-2014, 02:33 PM   #68
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I see little problem of how the logistics of the ref evals will work. First Step: Default Realignment as was roughly outlined in the OP. Second Step: Standard Evals for purposes of determining both speed and the fact that we need to do them. New refs will get altered to the new equivalent of their grade then get evaluated for speed whenever the evals happen or just get a default. I see no issues.
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Old 09-12-2014, 02:34 PM   #69
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If you ref frequently now it'll be reflected in Evals. Don't be an idiot about it, Schaden. Of course they're going to look at the speed of even the newer refs.
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Old 09-12-2014, 02:35 PM   #70
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I think it can be said that, given the +/- modifiers are dependent on speed, that Sneazebag is entirely right. It's very unlikely recently graded referees will be able to get beyond a C - the fact is once these new grades are implemented, you are going to be moved, like it or not. The most you can do in the meantime is ensure you get that + rating as opposed to neutral.
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Old 09-12-2014, 02:37 PM   #71
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I understand that, but saying that I'll automatically be a C, regardless of how often I ref now or how much effort I currently put into them compared to before, doesn't make the whole situation that much more palatable.
C is the new B. It's a change in label not in meaning. You got a B- on the test, which now translates to a C on the test. Should Dave feel your reffings mean you deserve a the New B Grade, he will give it to you in the evals. Otherwise you will stay constant and be C.
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Old 09-12-2014, 02:56 PM   #72
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I wouldn't be so disconcerted if Dave didn't say in his OP that B+/B will stay in B and that C+/B- will automatically (most likely) move down, and since new refs don't get more than B- these days as a blanket rule, that means that unless I get some nice feedback, I will be mostly likely be moving down, without a chance to prove myself.

But knowing that the +/- indicates speed, I feel a bit better. All I can ask people, I guess, is that people remember the good things. Ever since I've gotten my new grade, I've opened a new book and have been delivering better reffings than before. I just hope people don't remember the rushed reffings when my dad was dying.

Sorry if I was a bit anxious. I was eager to open a new chapter in my life. Thanks for the explanations, though. I feel better now. ^___^
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Old 09-12-2014, 02:59 PM   #73
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We're moving from three letter grades plus ungraded to four letter grades plus ungraded. C is the new B-. Stop thinking about the label and more what it means. And graded or not, you've been reffing for months now. And even if you hadn't, you will move down to the equivalent grade in the new system that you would have gotten if you took the test under the new rules.
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Old 09-12-2014, 04:11 PM   #74
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Nope
Quite right, I was mistaken, apologies. But that's just a sideline to the main point.
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No, what it says is that by default x grades under the current system will translate to y grades under the new system, and then ref evals will take place. Nothing special from protecting A grades from being demoted. Really, you're just inventing things now.
Well, no. Actually, it says this:
Quote:
Implementing it would of course result in an immediate ref evals as we adjust people to fit into the new system; broadly speaking, current C/C-'s would become D's of some description, C+/B-'s would become C's of some description and B/B+'s would become B's of some description, with A's keeping their grade. Some crossover where people are close to the boundary would also likely happen, and obviously normal evaluation changes of grades would occur.
It says that there will be ref evals and then it preordains what will happen, with the caveat of "broadly". Now if that's just clumsy wording then it's a case of poor writing as opposed to corruption but I'm still going to stick to the line that I don't believe you'll ever knock the existing A grades down if they really deserve it. The ASB has historically had a problem with keeping those at the top at the top and I see no reason to think that it won't continue when the OP of this thread explicitly says that it will.

I have no way of proving what was said, regrettably.


Really this is all just winding towards the point that you should scrap the automatic assumption that certain grades will end up as certain things. It's just incredibly lazy in the first place and the way it's worded leads to problems that have been highlighted by myself and others. Just kill that bit and then do actual proper ref evaluations to go with the implementation of this. If current B grades end up as Cs, fine, but if they don't that's also fine. If A grades end up still being A grades, awesome, but if they end up as Bs then that's just a sign to get stuck in and improve again. I'm sure that was the plan but that's not what has actually been said.

EDIT: I cannot work quote tags lol
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Old 09-12-2014, 04:43 PM   #75
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The OP probably should have left it at "expect your grade to change."
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