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Old 09-11-2014, 06:17 PM   #26
Concept
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myles Fowl II View Post
Obviously there needs to be motivation for a grade, yes, but a league with people who tend to ref lots is very unfriendly to an ungraded ref unless they stalk UPN and Skype. Sure there's Serebii but you have even more people there to crowd folks out. Some way to easily get new refs experience, something like one free match before always having to ask, is nice.
Ref caps. Part of the point of those is so that there's a little more to go around rather than having one or two people hording 20+ matches each. While we appreciate the contribution people who take large numbers of reffings make to the league, at times when their are lots of refs there does need to be some limit so matches can get spread around.

The other point behind ref caps is that in the past we have had issues where we've suddenly ended up with a massive dearth or refs because the one or two people who were taking 20-30 matches at a time suddenly stopped/seriously lowered their reffing amounts. Rather than risk situations where we suddenly have no refs, we'd like to have reffings spread around. That way if we're running short on refs, one super active ref can't mask the problem until it's too late and we can try to do something about it.

The ref caps we've proposed are fairly high at the moment, they were kind of arbitrarily picked. D grade and ungradeds can take about twice as many matches as we need the average ref to take in order to ref every ongoing match in the league.
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:18 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by blazeVA View Post
No, they aren't. Dropping a match does not end it, and no one is going to want to pick up a dropped match.
Ok then perhaps say something like "Ok person X is horrible and as a result this match is horrible, I'd like to suggest a DQ, in the event you are not OK with this I will be dropping the match".

Also to be honest if you aren't DQing a highly inactive opponent you're just as bad as the inactive opponent. A ref shouldn't have to be punished because you decide you want to be a part of a match that will take a year to complete.

Also did anyone read what I said about perhaps limiting the amount of time a match counts towards the maximum amount of matches a ref can service at a time? I think it would help balance out the system by insuring that there isn't any match hoarding while still making sure that long standing matches don't punish the ref, as well of course as making longer matches such as 6v6 less...well not appealing.
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:18 PM   #28
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I like the system in general, but I do find it odd that a D+ would get more of a tangible benefit than a B-.
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:20 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kairne View Post
I like the system in general, but I do find it odd that a D+ would get more of a tangible benefit than a B-.
I further resonate this statement. Maybe speed should be correlated with the ability to pick up more matches?
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:21 PM   #30
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A good ref who's only reffing once a fortnight is doing far less good for the league than a passable ref who refs almost everything within the bonus.
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:22 PM   #31
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Perhaps I read incorrectly but aren't the + & - statuses seperate from the letter grades?
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:23 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kairne View Post
I like the system in general, but I do find it odd that a D+ would get more of a tangible benefit than a B-.
Or an A-, even. Extra Reffing slots are great and being able to ref certain things is fine and dandy, but there's no ACTUAL perk given to higher grades.
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:26 PM   #33
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Some rehashing of the idea:

Ungraded: May ref standard matches only, with permission from both battlers, except for battles already in progress, may ref up to 5 matches in total.

In addition, to reward people for effort we're looking at bringing in Pokémart discounts on the basis of +/ /-;

+: Can purchase legend matches and six-packs of squad slots for 5 SP less. Reffing cap is increased by 5 matches.
: Can purchase six-packs of squad slots for 5 SP less.
-: No discount. Reffing cap is decreased by 5 matches.

Ungraded referees capping at 5 matches will hopefully prompt the referee to attempt the test much sooner.
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:29 PM   #34
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The ungraded thing was written before we got to the point now where we have a half-sustainable referee market. It probably should be altered so that they must ask permission for all things.

On purchasing referee slots, it would have to be carefully tweaked to match the final version of this, but yeah that's a strong possibility.

On the whole "bawwww my battlers are slow" thing? Tough. Do a better job of keeping the system moving and do a better job of engaging with your battlers and getting them to battle. The ASB is slow. However, the idea to get extra reffing slots with a + is a good one, should be three additional matches in my view.

Placing on the public record the opinion that all A grades automatically keeping their grade is corrupt and ridiculous. You want to keep your A grade? Fucking work for it. Otherwise be accountable for your behaviour like the rest of us and lose your letter grade.


Thanks to Dave for putting this up and to Concept for writing this version of it.
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:29 PM   #35
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I dislike the reduction for -. I do feel that ungraded and Ds should be limited to five, maybe Cs at ten, and the rest as it was.

I also don't think +s should get more matches on their cap.

I think Bs and As might could deserve a small SP boost (a bit more for As) as a tangible benefit.
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As may be expected though, our clear winner here was Kairne, ASB's champion of prioritizing the pokemon you like over those that are objectively better. I mean, one of his mains is a Watchog.
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:32 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneezey12 View Post
Or an A-, even. Extra Reffing slots are great and being able to ref certain things is fine and dandy, but there's no ACTUAL perk given to higher grades.
Depends how much you enjoy the ability to ref cooler matches/GMs.

Guys this is still at the idea stage - the whole point of this thread is that we wanted peoples ideas on how to improve it. "I don't like X" isn't really helpful. "Did you consider changing x to y because of this reason" is, and is very welcome. Please let's try to keep it to the latter (also it's pretty discouraging from an LO motivation pov when we try to propose positive changes and give the league the chance to give input and 90% of what we get is shooting holes in it with minimal constructive input).
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:34 PM   #37
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:36 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Concept View Post
Depends how much you enjoy the ability to ref cooler matches/GMs.

Guys this is still at the idea stage - the whole point of this thread is that we wanted peoples ideas on how to change it. "I don't like X" is not helpful. "Did you consider changing x to y because of this reason" is. Please let's try to keep it to the latter (also it's pretty discouraging from an LO motivation pov when we try to propose positive changes and give the league the chance to give input and 90% of what we get is shooting holes in it with zero constructive input).
Yeah but nine times out of ten you have to fight tooth and nail with the others that qualify for the privilege of reffing a super awesome match anyway, so.

But really I don't see the problem with a small SP bonus for higher grades for reffing. In the same manner that a Gym Match provides an SP bonus for being an important match, a higher grade ref should be provided with a bonus for doing well and being an example to the League of how things should be done. It's an incentive to actually ref even if they can't keep pace with the speed bonuses, because as I've stated before, speed isn't everything and quality needs promoted just as much if not more.
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:36 PM   #39
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I actually like the majority of the changes. I think that increasing the ref cap for faster refs is a good idea since they should be able to handle an increased workload.

I think a slight SP bonus for B and A grade refs is also a cool idea. We at the moment have a lot of B and A grade refs who don't ref, and its a small but noticeable incentive to get them reffing again.
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:38 PM   #40
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I dislike the reduction for -. I do feel that ungraded and Ds should be limited to five, maybe Cs at ten, and the rest as it was.

I also don't think +s should get more matches on their cap.

I think Bs and As might could deserve a small SP boost (a bit more for As) as a tangible benefit.
I have come into contact with very few referees from my own personal experience. However, I have spent a great deal of my time reading battles referee'd by veterans. More SP should only be an honor given to those in the A range. Everyone should strive to become A range one day, but few will archive it by the current description. I think that the current description puts someone like Connor in the B bracket with borderline A merits, and with that comes the benefit to referee a Legend Match which I assume falls under the exhibition match clause. If I'm not mistaken, Jeri falls under A rank, but does not referee all to frequently. His reward for his contributions as A rank member ideally would be 1.25x more SP. It's a small increase, but it is a reward for showing competency and actively contributing to the league for offering top quality reffing even if he ends up with an A- grade.
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:40 PM   #41
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While the A grade is a pedestal from which you cannot be moved there should no SP bonus of any kind.
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:44 PM   #42
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So are we making an S rank for Muyo? Because Dave being the top ref and our only A+ is scary and wrong.
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:44 PM   #43
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I'm sorry but not being able to be moved down if you're an A grade is dumb. This exact discussion came up not a couple days ago and it was discussed that old refs come back a lot and like to use their high grade to pick up a match and usually don't bother to read new things before doing so, generally messing up a good bit in the process. A grades should be subject to movement just like everyone else, and if they're good enough they'll still stay A grade anyway so I really don't see the point.
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:45 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Mercutio View Post
While the A grade is a pedestal from which you cannot be moved there should no SP bonus of any kind.
It's not? We don't actively strip any non-active refs grades, A-D. Never have - Stu still nominally has his B grade, and Speevey her B+. If an A grade is actively reffing but not to an A-grade standard, we'll demote them same as anyone else (I demoted myself, I'm not exactly shy about demoting people). As is that's never been the case - the only active A grade refs during either of our tenure in ASB have been Jeri and Dave, both of whom still know their stuff well enough to merit the grade.

I really don't know where you've pulled this from. There's not been a single case of an active A grade ref who should be demoted (by virtue of basically having no A grades because we don't use it enough) and ref grades of inactive people are entirely irrelevant so we've always just left them, from A-D.
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:55 PM   #45
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> They'll be demoted

I'm sorry but this is pretty disingenuous. You actively resisted demoting any A grades last time despite several of them not doing anything and there being legitimate questions of quality across the board. Now, if the LOs don't want to demote purely based on activity alone, well I think they're wrong but fine. But let's not pretend for a moment that if an A grade ref actually needed to be demoted based on the quality of their reffing ability then they would be demoted. It's just not true at all. Dave and Jeri are probably worthy of keeping their grade even though Jeri has self admitted to not keeping up with rules and attack changes which, quite bluntly, is pretty fundamental to being even a half decent ref. The reality is that we don't have the collective courage or drive to stand up to people who rest on their laurels unfairly. It trivialises the whole system really.

Not to say that this won't be an improvement. But don't try and sell it as fair. It's very much not fair.
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Old 09-11-2014, 07:03 PM   #46
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> They'll be demoted

I'm sorry but this is pretty disingenuous. You actively resisted demoting any A grades last time despite several of them not doing anything.
Well this is total nonsense. You're acting like this is special to A grades - we don't demote anyone who no longer actively refs. If you want to go dig up a list of every single ref grade since league founding over a decade ago and demote all the ones who don't ref any more then I suppose be my guest? But I don't get why you're pretending what we do about the inactive A grades (Muyo, Kuno, Elsie etc) is any different to what we do about inactive B grades (Stu, Speevey, etc) or C grades (EG, IamDewgong, etc). If people literally aren't reffing their grade is no longer relevant, so why bother going through the effort of changing all of them? Shall I go back and demote X-rok and Archaic and Fushigidane while I'm at it? What grade these people nominally have mean nothing because they aren't refs any more.

If Elsie popped back in and started reffing again tomorrow, I would demote him until he demonstrated he'd caught up with all the changes. I demoted myself at the last evals, I'm not exactly shy about doing this.

I literally do not understand where you've concocted this fantasy from that we're doing anything different with people of any grade.
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Old 09-11-2014, 07:13 PM   #47
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It explicitly says in the original post of this thread that A grades will not be moved down. Even if it did not, I specifically remember you saying that we wouldn't be demoting any A grades when I brought it up last time. You can go read it in the LO sub forum.

Now that aside, your argument would be stronger if we weren't giving out tangible benefits for holding grades now. Their grade is now relevant even if they don't do any reffing. As it is I think you're wrong but now you're seriously saying that you're ok with any historic ref grade coming back and using their discounts? What you said is that if LC started reffing tomorrow you'd demote him. Putting aside for a moment the fact that I don't believe you (and even if I did we all know that ref evals don't happen regularly), what if he didn't? What if he just rocked up, borrowed some SP and bought some cheap stuff using the new discounts? That's not ok. That's corrupt.
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Old 09-11-2014, 07:16 PM   #48
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When this is implemented there will be a huge set of Ref Evals to put everyone under the new system. No benefits will be gained until it's all finalised.

And this is why I removed most of the inactive refs from the ref list. If any of them were to come back they'd be retested and placed in the new system.
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Old 09-11-2014, 07:16 PM   #49
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Why not just automatically bump all inactives to "-"? They lose pretty much every major bonus associated with reffing fast, and it seems pretty obvious because well... they're not reffing fast if they flat out aren't reffing.
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Old 09-11-2014, 07:17 PM   #50
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I'd like to point out that the OP also states

"People must be currently actively reffing to benefit from these discounts."
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As may be expected though, our clear winner here was Kairne, ASB's champion of prioritizing the pokemon you like over those that are objectively better. I mean, one of his mains is a Watchog.
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