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Old 09-11-2014, 04:52 PM   #1
DaveTheFishGuy
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Relicanth Ref Grades

For some time ref grades have seen several issues; ranging from our infrequent use of the A grade to attempting to grade on speed, quality of writing and competence all on one scale. To that end we're looking at rejigging the system. Our current thought is to use A/B/C/D as indicators of ability and effort put in, and +/ /- as indicators of speed. We've also come up with some more tangible effects of ref grades;

A grade referee: Almost infallible in matters of what happens during a round. May ref any match, including a Grand Melee. May ref up to 15 matches in total.
B grade referee: Correct on most all matters of what happens during a round. May ref any match excepting a Grand Melee. May ref up to 12 matches in total.
C grade referee: A thorough understanding of the rules and able to state what happens with clarity. May ref any match excepting a Grand Melee. May ref up to 10 matches in total.
D grade referee: Solid understanding of the rules but needs experience before joining the ranks of the great. Can ref standard matches, and Gym matches with permission, but cannot ref 'exhibition' matches or battles already in progress. May ref up to 10 matches in total.
Ungraded: May ref standard matches only, with permission from both battlers, except for battles already in progress, may ref up to 10 matches in total.

In addition, to reward people for effort we're looking at bringing in Pokémart discounts on the basis of +/ /-;

+: Can purchase legend matches and six-packs of squad slots for 5 SP less.
: Can purchase six-packs of squad slots for 5 SP less.
-: No discount.

People must be currently actively reffing to benefit from these discounts.

So this is out current working draft. Implementing it would of course result in an immediate ref evals as we adjust people to fit into the new system; broadly speaking, current C/C-'s would become D's of some description, C+/B-'s would become C's of some description and B/B+'s would become B's of some description, with A's keeping their grade. Some crossover where people are close to the boundary would also likely happen, and obviously normal evaluation changes of grades would occur.

Before we do anything like this, we want your thoughts and feedback! Good idea or bad? Any suggestions for improvements or changes or alternatives? This is the thread for it!
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Old 09-11-2014, 04:57 PM   #2
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Personally, I like this system and it also works pretty well. It gives a good incentive to ref again, personally, and the bonuses for not being a - grade ref is great. The D grade actually seems to make sense now instead of "this person is a terrible ref". However, what would happen if a C+ promotes to a B-. That doesn't seem too fair in losing out on those bonuses.
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Old 09-11-2014, 04:58 PM   #3
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Going to weigh in here and ask what you guys are planning to do with regards to the referee cap and referees like myself who have a number of battles where the battlers deign to order like, once a month.
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Old 09-11-2014, 04:59 PM   #4
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That wouldn't happen. The letter and the plus/minus are completely seperate. If you're consistent in speed but go up in quality you'd go from C+ to B+ straight away.

Similarly if a ref who was becoming slow and not accurate was B- they'd drop straight down to C-.
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:00 PM   #5
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Going to reiterate that these are just ideas and may well be a fair bit different when they come into play. Ref caps, grades and potential rewards may fluctuate from what you see currently.
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:01 PM   #6
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I believe that the logical thing should be done and if you were already over the cap, the matches would be grandfathered. But I'm sorry but people really shouldn't be dropping people because they aren't ordering.
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:04 PM   #7
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But the refereeing cap could mean I'm ultimately left with barely anything to referee because I've ended up completing all my active battles and I'm left with X inactive battles which fill the cap. It's a flawed system and it is actively going to promote people dropping those matches, because for all that honour is a thing, having referees stuck in a position where they are literally unable to pick up matches for months on end is probably not ideal.
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:06 PM   #8
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Going to weigh in here and ask what you guys are planning to do with regards to the referee cap and referees like myself who have a number of battles where the battlers deign to order like, once a month.
If your battlers aren't ordering regularly enough for your liking, ditch 'em. Entirely their own fault if they can't get a ref because they're too lazy to order regularly.
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:07 PM   #9
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I'm not a ref so i should probably avoid contribution, but I'd have to agree that if people aren't ordering, especially for the lengths of time Connor is bringing up, then it's the battlers fault if they get dropped. A ref really shouldn't be punished for the inaction of others.

Edit - And someone much more qualified posts something similar to what i say just as i say it.
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:08 PM   #10
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I'm inclined to agree with Connor here and while reffing caps are a good thought as they are right now they are too few.
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:12 PM   #11
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A blanket rule as to when it is prudent to drop a trainer covers this simple debate. Both referees and trainers have to be in mutual understatement that they must carry a symbiotic relationship. If efficacy is lost on either side, we should avoid to harbor any hard feelings.
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:13 PM   #12
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I find it really ridiculous that a ref can drop a match when the DQ system exists.
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:17 PM   #13
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At least from what I've seen DQs aren't generally multiple weeks, let alone around a month like Connor has brought up. So if you reach those levels of inactivity, you deserve to be dropped, or in the very least should accept it as reasonable.
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:19 PM   #14
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While limiting the amount of matches a ref can take by their skill level is a great idea, the issue is as Cibbir pointed out: You risk having the good refs caught up in a bunch of slow-moving matches, which would bottleneck the system a bit.

As a patch to this, I suggest instead making the reffing cap a function of activity. That is to say, implement reffing caps based on the +/- system (which would make a little more sense- the ability to ref many matches uses activity more than it does skill, as each match is individual and you shouldn't be keeping the information for all of them in your head). To use the current proposed system as a (rough) guideline, Minuses could have a cap of 10 matches, Neutrals with 12/15, and Positives with 15/20. The first numbers are intended for a slightly less active league, and the latter for a slightly moreso. Implementing a Star activity class (*) with the same benefits as +, but with a cap of 20/unlimited could also be a possibility, to throw ideas out there.


And now I would like to say that I adore everything else. It's a genius system which implements both quality and quantity while still retaining the importance of both. Excellent job!
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:19 PM   #15
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If your opponent hasn't ordered in several weeks, you DQ them. I'm sorry, but dropping matches except in cases where both parties are inactive is a horrible dick move. You are really screwing over the other party. It's one match out of twelve for you; its one match out of four for them.
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:23 PM   #16
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If your opponent hasn't ordered in several weeks, you DQ them. I'm sorry, but dropping matches except in cases where both parties are inactive is a horrible dick move. You are really screwing over the other party. It's one match out of twelve for you; its one match out of four for them.
If that person has held off pressing the DQ button long enough to get on their refs nerves, honestly they kind of deserve it too. Don't want people to be too trigger happy and DQ the moment it passes but come on guys, if your opponent hasn't ordered in a month just kick them. If you're willingly waiting on your opponent occupying one of your four slots longer than a ref is willing to wait on orders in one of their twelve matches, you're being far too patient.

I'm retired from battling purely because I know I will otherwise be the guy holding matches up.

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That is to say, implement reffing caps based on the +/- system (which would make a little more sense- the ability to ref many matches uses activity more than it does skill, as each match is individual and you shouldn't be keeping the information for all of them in your head).
You make a good point. I think we missed this because we stuck ref caps on the proposal before we properly separated out speed from quality.
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:25 PM   #17
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If your opponent hasn't ordered in several weeks, you DQ them. I'm sorry, but dropping matches except in cases where both parties are inactive is a horrible dick move. You are really screwing over the other party. It's one match out of twelve for you; its one match out of four for them.
This is of course assuming the ref isn't handling multiple matches at once, thus eating more of their slots. Plus it's not really screwing over the active party because they are then free to find an opponent that doesn't suck.

As a suggestion to fix the ref caps, how about putting a time cap on how long a match counts towards your cap, that way slow matches and longer ones such as 6v6 don't punish the ref.
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:43 PM   #18
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What about SP modifiers for the highest grade? Surely being rated A grade should be more rewarding as they are showing almost perfect competency of the system. Maybe a modifier of earning 1.25x additional SP would be a nice incentive to improve on personal styles and quality if only to claim the additional SP.

Some crossover with economy thread: if a referee cap is included, maybe a purchasable voucher that increases their personal reffing cap by 5 or 10 more matches would easily mitigate any problems that might arise with certain individuals that exceed the cap.
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:44 PM   #19
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I'd say let ungraded refs take a very small amount of matches withiut needing to ask. Like one or two, say, before they need to ask? They need experience and immediately testing for a grade in order to not risk getting ninjad is a rather prisoner level strategy that will land them wirh a piss poor grade for a long time unless they either use a little math or are just plain lucky and good enough writers to win a Pulitzer.

Of course I'm doing it anyway, but I've had to use some math.
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:47 PM   #20
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No. Ungraded refs should have to ask. No exceptions.

Also, B grade could use a bit to distinguish it from C grade in terms of benefits.
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:53 PM   #21
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No. Ungraded refs should have to ask. No exceptions.

Also, B grade could use a bit to distinguish it from C grade in terms of benefits.
Looking at the list, not allowing C to ref Exhibition matches seems like a natural step between D and B in terms of limits.
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:55 PM   #22
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Some crossover with economy thread: if a referee cap is included, maybe a purchasable voucher that increases their personal reffing cap by 5 or 10 more matches would easily mitigate any problems that might arise with certain individuals that exceed the cap.
Actually agree with this slightly. To tie into the economy thread, implementing the ability to purchase Ref Slots might not be a terrible idea. I personally dislike it (reeks of investment and return, which is NOT what SP is about), but it could be reasonable.
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Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:58 PM   #23
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Obviously there needs to be motivation for a grade, yes, but a league with people who tend to ref lots is very unfriendly to an ungraded ref unless they stalk UPN and Skype. Sure there's Serebii but you have even more people there to crowd folks out. Some way to easily get new refs experience, something like one free match before always having to ask, is nice.
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:01 PM   #24
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Obviously there needs to be motivation for a grade, yes, but a league with people who tend to ref lots is very unfriendly to an ungraded ref unless they stalk UPN and Skype. Sure there's Serebii but you have even more people there to crowd folks out. Some way to easily get new refs experience, something like one free match before always having to ask, is nice.
I think I covered that with my proposed idea over at Serebii TO. I will quote it for posterity.

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I just though of a great idea that would work in supplement to the referee school. We can have a thread dedicated to training new referees. Experienced referees will post a fictional scenario to referee. All unranked referees will have 48 hours to come up with what is supposed to be the most ideal situation for the round. The rounds can be submitted to a single user via PM. The user will post all the submitted rounds by Saturday. Between Saturday and Sunday, all experienced referees will objectively vote on who reffed the best round. The winner will be awarded 1 or 2 SP. It would involve criticism, several benchmarks to reach, and additional points for creativity. They can range from generic to unorthodox/difficult scenarios.

If the program turns out to be successful, it can be expanded to referees in the C/C+ D range. After several good showings, the more experienced referees could give an input as to move up the more inexperienced referees up a grade level. This will only work for trainers below B- C.
Note: The second proposed idea is to highlight troubled/inexperienced refs that are already graded, but still have some critical improvement to go. The proposed idea will not explicitly move anyone up. It would set the premise and offer the spotlight for these individual trainers to improve their skills. They would have merited focus as the additional side program would encourage improvement of their skills and attitude toward reffing if they so choose to take advantage of the generous help being offered. Again, it is not to trump the current Reffing Eval system, but rather to supplement and integrate constructive opinions from more experienced referees.
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:12 PM   #25
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This is of course assuming the ref isn't handling multiple matches at once, thus eating more of their slots. Plus it's not really screwing over the active party because they are then free to find an opponent that doesn't suck.
No, they aren't. Dropping a match does not end it, and no one is going to want to pick up a dropped match.
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