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Old 05-20-2015, 03:32 PM   #401
Emi
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Frankly if you can't win a matchup without STAB moves you're doing something wrong.
Can we PLEASE not say stuff like this? I'm already self-conscious about my ability, and while I know (what do i know i don't know) you aren't trying to disrespect me, that's what it feels like. Also, how good I am has absolutely nothing to do with my argument and is totally irrelevant.

Ghost really isn't that special. It also only has two resistances, which makes it inferior to other types like Water, Electric, or the very similar Dragon on the defensive front, and offensively, its abysmal, since its SE coverage is limited to Psychics and itself. Neutral coverage doesn't mean as much in ASB like it does in the games. Even if it was a great type, most of the Pokemon in it are totally fine, so that wouldn't change my point anyways.
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Old 05-20-2015, 04:05 PM   #402
Shuckle
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Originally Posted by Emi View Post
There are many perfectly balanced Ghosts that are nowhere near the level of Dusknoir or Mismagius or Gengar, yet we decide to punish every Ghost and not bother to do anything with those three, and this is always the modus operandi for anyone when Ghosts do come up.
This has been the way ASB treats most things. Just look at Clefable. The Normal SC nerf was almost immediately followed by the Fairy SC nerf when Clefable was no longer a Normal type. That's not to say that things like Snorlax and Wigglytuff aren't on the same level, but it's still completely nuts to try to argue that their typing is the problem and not the obvious advantages that those Pokemon enjoy - especially when the nerf to the typing was to reduce the obvious advantages that those Pokemon enjoy when things like Pyroar, Dodrio, or Watchog (aka the majority of normal types) don't even enjoy those specific advantages in the first place.

I'd say that the biggest way to completely end that would be to make type SC's universally beneficial and not ever include nerfs in them. Pokemon who need nerfs can be nerfed individually.

In this spoiler I just removed everything that could be construed as a nerf and modified some of the grammar. SC's aren't sigs. They don't need a balance between buffs and nerfs. If a type is too good, reduce its buffs. If a type is not good, increase its buffs. There's no need to complicate this.

I understand that a situational buff may seem like it should also be a nerf to fighting in other situations, but I disagree because baseline is good and buffed is better. No need to swap between "buffed" and "nerfed" for no reason. Just give it a situational buff and move on.

I also made comments where something didn't make sense to me or if I added in something I thought would be a neat idea.

Spoiler: show
[Bug]: Bug-types can see in the dark. Most live in warm climates, though they hate fire. Their status inducing attacks have a slight boost to their chance of inflicting statuses and the resulting statuses are slightly more potent than usual.

[Dark]: Dark-types can see in the dark. They fight more enthusiastically at night and are more effective at hiding in dark environments than other Pokémon, though light does not adversely affect them. They are immune to the damaging effects of Psychic-type energy but may still be lifted and manipulated by telekinesis. They are slightly better at tricking opponents than other Pokémon.

[Dragon]: Dragon-types tend to be strong swimmers and fliers, though they are not always as agile as other Pokémon. They fight more enthusiastically in warm climates. They are resistant to being burned. They have slightly more Fire energy than other Pokémon if they naturally learn attacks of that type.

[Electric]: Electric-types, in general, prefer areas where their electric attacks are most accurate. Thus, while hot temperatures don't bother them, the fact that heat refracts electricity doesn't appeal to them. They are resistant to paralysis inflicted by Electric-type moves, though they may be paralysed as normal by other methods. Electric types do not suffer from recoil damage when using Electric attacks in the water.

[Fairy]: Fairy-types are generally pure hearted and gregarious and will fight more enthusiastically if they have allies. Most prefer fighting in natural environments. Any attack used by a Fairy-type which manipulates the environment is slightly more effective, and attacks which boost allied Pokémon are also slightly more effective. They are immune to the damaging effects of Dragon-typed energy.

[Fighting]: Fighting-type Pokémon train extensively, more than any other Pokémon type, which gives them greater endurance and readiness than other Pokémon and allows them to push themselves harder for longer. They are more accurate with their physical blows and are more adept at blocking and countering the physical strikes of attackers. They fight more enthusiastically in urban environments but are not adversely affected by more natural surroundings. [why is this a thing this confuses me. ~shuckle]

[Fire]: Fire-types fight most enthusiastically in hot and dry conditions. They are extremely difficult to burn and most can survive in hot liquids/molten lava for an extended period of time. If a Fire Pokémon has an exposed flame somewhere on its body, it will take a small amount of extra damage if liquid water hits the flame; otherwise, Fire-type Pokémon are not adversely affected by taking dips in bodies of water, so long as the time is short.

[Flying]: Flying-type Pokémon are faster and more agile in their chosen mode of transportation than other Pokémon. Because of their skill in controlling their movement, they are more difficult to evade when using physical moves and more likely to succeed in dodging attacks. Flying type Pokémon are affected normally by the damaging effects of Ground-typed energy and take neutral damage from Ground type moves in the ASB. They fight more enthusiastically in spacious arenas.

[Ghost]: Ghost-type Pokémon fight more enthusiastically at night, though they are not put off by fighting in the day, and can see in the dark. Ghosts are resistant to curses, and curses imposed on them will last for a shorter time and be less potent. Their fear inducing attacks are more effective than those used by other Pokémon. Ghost-types are not immune to Normal, Fighting or typeless attacks as in the games, taking neutral damage, but most may change their state in order to evade physical moves (see Ghost Pokémon information for details).

[Grass]: Grass-type Pokémon live anywhere that can support vegetation, though most prefer temperate to tropical climates, and most are adept at concealing themselves in areas with lots of vegetation. Grass-types enjoy both bright sun and rain and fight more enthusiastically in the day time, though they are not put off by fighting at night. Rainstorms will heal them slightly every round the rain falls, while excessively bright sunlight will regenerate their energy instead. Healing moves cost slightly less energy when used by Grass-types and their draining moves will heal them by a greater amount (without draining any more from the opponent) while suffering only half of the usual diminishing returns. They are immune to spore based techniques, like Sleep Powder, and are more adept at using such attacks themselves, creating denser concentrations of spores which are harder to disperse and more potent in their effects.

[Ground]: Ground-type Pokémon are considered to be immune to electricity while standing on the ground. If a Ground Pokémon is in the air, they take 0.75x the usual damage from Electric-type attacks. If a Ground-type is wet, electric attacks affect it normally (unless the Pokémon is naturally wet/slimy, like Quagsire). Ground types do not suffer from recoil damage when using Electric attacks in the water. Ground-type Pokémon are more adept at manipulating outdoor and 'natural' environments and will spend less energy using Dig, Earthquake etc. They typically have slightly more Rock energy than other Pokémon if they naturally learn attacks of that type.

[Ice]: Ice-type Pokémon are highly resistant to cold and fight more enthusiastically in cold environments. Ice-type attacks which have a secondary effect such as Icy Wind and Ice Beam are slightly more likely to have their effects triggered when used by Ice-type Pokémon, though they are often resistant to such effects themselves. Ice-types are generally sure footed and difficult to knock over. They tend to have slightly more Water energy than other Pokémon if they naturally learn attacks of that type.

[Normal]: Normal-type Pokémon typically fight more enthusiastically in urban settings [This is to set Fairy and Normal as opposites. ~shuckle]. In the ASB, Normal-types take neutral damage from the damaging effects of Ghost-type energy. [blaze is there a change on the way or something or did you misread this ~shuckle]

[Poison]: Poison-type Pokémon are highly resistant to poisoning. Their Poison-type attacks are slightly more likely to succeed in poisoning their targets than those used by other Pokémon and the effects will be slightly more potent. They also have an additional 5% chance to poison the target when using physical attacks with their most venomous appendages e.g. a Seviper's tail, a Nidoking's horn.

[Psychic]: Psychic-type Pokémon are much more proficient with telekinesis than other Pokémon. Thus, they can use Psychic to move and manipulate targets with ease. Psychic type Pokémon are resistant to flinching and have higher levels of focus and concentration than other Pokémon, and they are also resistant to attacks which induce confusion or other mental effects. They have a limited ability to read minds and are thus more adept at dodging attacks than might be expected and able to mitigate the effects of accuracy reducing attacks. This telepathy does not work on Dark typed Pokémon.

[Rock]: Rock-type Pokémon generally have hard bodies, which makes them resistant to physical hits and projectiles. They are difficult to burn or poison and prefer hot environments to cold ones. Most are so heavy that they will sink in water, so they stay away from deep-water sources if possible. They are adept at controlling rocks and will use less energy than other Pokémon when using Rock Tomb, Stealth Rock etc. to manipulate the arena. They have slightly more Ground energy than other Pokémon if they naturally learn attacks of that type.

[Steel]: Steel-type Pokémon fight more enthusiastically in urban settings, especially factories [bc fairies and also this makes sense not sure why it wasn't a thing already ~shuckle]. They generally have hard bodies, making them resistant to physical blows and projectiles. Most are so heavy that they will sink in water, so they stay away from deep-water sources if possible, though they are not bothered by water to the degree Rock-types are. Steel-types take neutral damage from the damaging effects of Normal-type energy in the ASB, as opposed to resisted damage in the games. They are immune to the damaging effects of Poison-type energy and are difficult to poison.

[Water]: Water-type Pokémon are generally able to hold their breath and/or breathe underwater. The time varies, from several rounds in the case of birds, mammals and reptiles to indefinitely for fish and squid like Pokémon. They are generally good swimmers and are adept at manipulating Water for moves like Surf and Whirlpool. They have slightly more Ice-typed energy than other Pokémon if they naturally learn attacks of that type.
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Spoiler: show
[The Sorcerer's Ambition]A handy link, to be sure.
Level Acquisitions, sorted by level instead of name.
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Originally Posted by phoopes View Post
Shuckle's awesomeness level continues to rise.
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Old 05-20-2015, 04:15 PM   #403
Emi
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I'm agreeing with Shuckle. I think ultimately, there aren't many Pokemon who will need an individual nerf (and besides, we already have precedence for this in Clefable vs Granbull). It'll be more work yes but ultimately things will be better for it.
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Old 05-20-2015, 04:56 PM   #404
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The reason I quit doing SCs is because SCs becomes all about "buff/nerf what I like/hate" and this entire discussion is proving me 100% right.

Emi, I appreciate your desire to keep the type you lead a Gym in good but frankly this is a really minor balance change in the grand scheme of things and giving Normals a slight advantage against a type that they really pretty universally flounder against is not going to make Ghosts noticeably worse. This is not a personal attack against you and no one is looking to make things harder for your or criticize your battling skill. Please don't take it like that.

Shuckle does have somewhat of a point in his post but doing a complete overhaul of type SCs is really not needed. Type SCs are already kind of a bonus as it is and the few nerfs and buffs they do give aren't gamebreaking enough for them to be a priority.

I'm closing this thread for now until we can find a more structured way of dealing with SC changes.
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