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Old 06-27-2014, 01:44 PM   #1
Jerichi
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Porygon-Z Attack List Audit

So I think it's about time I do another look-over of the movelist, since it's been quite a while since there's been a comprehensive review of the entire list and I have been somewhat out of the loop with Kush taking over a lot of the rewriting during his tenure. I will be, over the course of the next month or so, looking over the entire movelist and tweaking moves for various criteria, as well as adding energy listings where they're needed and adding other general rules that will codify certain mechanics that are either scattered or poorly recorded.

What I need from you guys is a list of moves that need to be edited or that have been brought up in the Talkback or Anime Evidence threads and have yet to be dealt with. Please do not post descriptions - it is my job to write those - but just proposed changes to moves. I'll be posting all the revised descriptions at once, and we'll have a beta period on any of the changes made. I'll also be posting a list of any moves that have been significantly altered separately, likely in the Move Errata list.

Thanks for your help!
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Old 06-27-2014, 05:44 PM   #2
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Spoiler: show
Need looking at:
Block
Tri Attack
Assist
Horn Drill
Barrage
Defog
Psychic
Constrict
Brave Bird
Head Charge
Submission
Reversal
Rain Dance (particularly with the recoil %)
Wing Attack
Revenge
Final Gambit
Rock Throw


And as listed here:
Heat Crash
Heavy Slam
Tail Slap
Steamroller
Double-Slap
Double Hit
Double Kick
Comet Punch
Pin Missile
Twineedle
Triple Kick
Fury Attack
Fury Cutter
Fury Swipes
Spike Cannon
Arm Thrust
Egg Bomb
Crabhammer
Synchronise
Thrash
Rage


I'll post more
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Old 06-27-2014, 05:48 PM   #3
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All boosting/debuffing moves, with a common mechanic. Especially the Growls of the world... my bad. They sucked even more before hand but they're not right. All reflection moves i.e. Bide, Counter and MC, Metal Burst, are currently either much too powerful or a total waste of time. Somewhere in the middle would be good for all of them, but we need to keep WTID dead for the most part. For the love of God start writing down how much energy attacks use I know you think we don't need to but we really, really do.

But to be honest we caught pretty much every wildly broken attack loop hole already.


There are several pre done rewrites you can just lift from what I did (or comment on and implement now idk whatever man).
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Old 06-27-2014, 06:59 PM   #4
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I had a whole intelligent post written but UPN ate it. Blarg.

Basically, as a newbie, Defense and Speed boosts are confusing and could use some clarification as to what they do in relation to each other ("light" versus "sharp"), especially as to the benefits of a slight speed boost vs. a big one, and whether defense boosts are proportional to attack boosts or a whole different thing (it might be useful to have defense boosts at the same "level" as a corresponding attack boost be clearly proportioned so they cancel out). Also diminishing returns could be clarified as to whether it applies to multiple uses of the same move or all boosts to a particular stat in total.

So basically I'm agreeing with Kush. I hope my newbish opinion contributed meaningfully somehow!
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Old 06-27-2014, 08:28 PM   #5
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re boosting moves I think the biggest problem with boosting moves is "they fade."

I think it would fix them pretty well if either fade time was set at a reasonable amount OR we just removed it altogether.

The problem is that it's a move slot to use a boosting move. And along with health and energy, moves are a resource. You never see someone using a move to reposition; there's no advantage to "move 4 feet away from him and use Thundershock" as opposed to "use Secret Power and then Thundershock." In fact, the first of those orders is easily countered by "use Fire Punch!" and then you wasted a move walking 4 feet instead of using Secret Power.

I've talked about close-range moves before. I really think that either repositioning should not be considered a move or we should do something that makes repositioning actually good.

With a variety of defensive options in ASB, it's rarely an awesome idea to use a boosting move; there's not much bang for your buck going on if your opponent Protects against your Hyper Beam or even just paralyzes you so you can't use Quick Attack right after Swords Dance.

Yes it's not super fair to newbies to have boosts be able to sweep their team just because they don't wear off, but maybe adding some stat-reduction effects to a few of the less common moves might increase their usage and provide utility to some otherwise lackluster Pokemon, as well as give greater importance to stat debuffs. Maybe Dedenne and Shuckle will become useful????

*reads Dedenne's movelist*

*reads Shuckle's movelist*

Wow, that might actually work. Way to go Shuckle, solving the problems.

Anyway, screw the newbies they'll learn. If boosts actually give long-term damage returns, people will use them as long-term damage investments. Then you have to balance out boosting with attacking. Oh, and it will also let you make boosting moves cost energy, which would be nice. Short term vs. long term???
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Old 06-27-2014, 09:03 PM   #6
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Err, Shuckle, repositioning isn't a move. Unless it's used to avoid an attack in some way. And even then there are exceptions.


On the topic of boosts, I endorse the method blaze wrote up ages back, and use it to this day. I'll leave the details to him, but the long and short of it is that more powerful boosts fade quicker (but give greater profit before they fade) while weaker boosts last longer.
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People should watch what they enjoy regardless of what others think, even if it's a terribad guilty pleasure.
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Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
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Old 06-27-2014, 10:12 PM   #7
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makes sense too

also did we fix repositioning actually?
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Old 06-28-2014, 06:17 AM   #8
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Well no but "back off as you Thundershock" will get you moving backwards a short distance without the use of a move. It just won't be at pace.
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Old 06-29-2014, 06:55 PM   #9
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Right, so, I was planning on doing a huge post, but first, need to get this out of the way.

Please fix the moves that should clearly be XX instead of NO or NO instead of XX, such as Cut having been ruled forever ago to be XX an Mega Punch/Kick having a glow yet not being NO.
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Old 06-29-2014, 07:19 PM   #10
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Alternatively: kill off XX, as the animé did about a decade ago, and erase this issue completely.
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Old 06-29-2014, 10:04 PM   #11
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Magnetic Flux lasts the whole battle. Intended or not intended?
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Old 06-29-2014, 11:33 PM   #12
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Magnetic Flux is basically a benefit SR for only electric-types, it's probably fine.

On the matter of Normal VS XX, I think it's perfectly fine to have the two be different things.
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Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
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Old 06-30-2014, 03:35 AM   #13
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I rewrote Magnetic Flux. Did we not implement that?
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Old 06-30-2014, 03:50 AM   #14
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Apparently you did.
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Old 06-30-2014, 01:27 PM   #15
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> Please fix the moves that should clearly be XX instead of NO or NO instead of XX, such as Cut having been ruled forever ago to be XX an Mega Punch/Kick having a glow yet not being NO.

Make me a list.
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Old 06-30-2014, 05:10 PM   #16
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To be honest, I like the idea of just making Normal and XX one in the same.
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Old 06-30-2014, 05:28 PM   #17
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I really don't understand why people continue to treat this thread like it's a debate and not just Jeri asking what stuff has been discussed in the past and not fixed yet.

>XX v NO

Crush Claw should be NO
Dizzy Punch should be NO
Egg Bomb should be NO
Final Gambit and Giga Impact should probably be NO
Guillotine and Horn Drill are arguable
Karate Chop might want to be FT
Last Resort should be NO
Mega Kick and Mega Punch should be NO
Pay Day should be NO
Skull Bash should be NO when used by a 'mon that learns it naturally
Spike Cannon is arguable
Agility might want to be XX
Bind could be XX
Bite should be XX
Cut should be XX
Defense Curl should be XX
Howl is arguable
...why is Nasty Plot NO in the first place?
Odor Sleuth is arguable
Roar is arguable
Scary Face is arguable
Screech is arguable
Slack Off is arguable
Tickle should be XX

This list is based off the No Glow No Go rule as well as things such as secondary effects the attacks might have.

Following the same rule, weather moves should really be their respective type again. It made no sense for them to be changed to XX in the first place.
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Old 06-30-2014, 05:51 PM   #18
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Eh, the weather thing isn't really an issue imop. Especially since the attack in question is just moving the clouds around- There's not really any more reason for Sunny Day to be Fire than there is for it to be Normal (personally, I picture them as altering atmospheric pressure more than anything else- Like, Sunny Day would create a high pressure zone and push the clouds away, while Rain Dance would create a low pressure zone and gather up clouds. Hail is a bit more questionable.)

I mean, of course it was changed for gameplay reasons, not lore, but I think the lore of them being NO is pretty solid.
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People should watch what they enjoy regardless of what others think, even if it's a terribad guilty pleasure.
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Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
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Old 06-30-2014, 05:57 PM   #19
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The weather change was made for a reason. If you want them to be Normal then whatever makes you happy but making them STAB typed would be counter productive.
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Old 06-30-2014, 06:08 PM   #20
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Nasty Plot and Weather Moves were made NO so that you wouldn't run out; it sort of unbalanced the moves by making them use type energy.
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Old 06-30-2014, 06:14 PM   #21
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Honestly them being NO is perfectly fine. But weather moves being XX makes no sense when we otherwise reserve XX for physical thing that lack a glow.
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Old 06-30-2014, 06:17 PM   #22
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Valid. XX is basically supposed to be Physical, afterall.
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People should watch what they enjoy regardless of what others think, even if it's a terribad guilty pleasure.
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Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
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Old 06-30-2014, 06:36 PM   #23
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Fair enough.
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Old 07-01-2014, 05:22 AM   #24
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I thought in the anime, Cut was glowy?

Seems it is. This should be evidence for NO Cut over XX Cut (if we're even going to keep them separate, which is... egh...):
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Also, Grassy Terrain:
Grassy Terrain (GR) - For considerable energy the user spreads invigorating Grass energy along the ground, causing grass and flowers to sprout in even the most rugged environments. This super invigorated grass will restore some (~light) health to all Pokémon touching the ground for the next five rounds, until the energy fades and also makes Grass-type moves slightly stronger. Nature Power will become Seed Bomb while this move is in effect, and Weather Ball will become Grass-typed when used by a grounded Pokemon.

In-game, tall grass makes Nature Power Seed Bomb, but Grassy Terrain makes it Energy Ball. For consistency's sake, I'd like it to reflect that here.
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Old 07-01-2014, 05:34 AM   #25
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My point was based off an old statement about it not glowing in ASB and needing to be XX but never actually got changed. It has no real distinguishable qualities over Slash, Scratch, etc which we leave as XX.
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