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Old 06-24-2014, 11:24 AM   #76
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Longish post coming.


As a person who gives pokemon more energy than what the "norm" is, I am glad that the LO's are taking the step to solve a problem. One thing that I would recccommend is that even if you choose not to take the Reed idea, is to increase the general levels of energy. With the new minors system, 1 Hyper Beam is not enough. I don't mean this for normals, though they should get some slightly higher energy boost, even if it's not the same increase as other types, but I think of this as more of a balance to the way that the game's shifted. This isn't to say that strategic, SE matchups aren't a thing, but the individual at the disadvantaged position should have a better chance. I don't mean going back to the old scales that some refs, admittedly me did where you'd have enough off type energy to KO a pokemon that's weak to the move, but it shouldn't be so low that if you get into a bad matchup, aassuming the trainers are of equal skill and no massive mistakes occur, that the type with the advantage will often win, and have a sizeable amount of health left, less than the freshly sent out pokemon, but enough to where it could matter in the long run. This is a problem, especially with the advent of U-Turn and other switching moves, to where the lack of type energy makes matches virtually unwinnable, unless one either tries to play for the energy KO, which because of ref's interpretations and current gameplay, is virtually impossible or you see the generic ranged normal moves spam + a one good hit if lucky.

I think a hybrid Reed rule is the best way. By hybrid I mean that the base type energy should be increased. Not to where you could KO, (so not 3 HB's for familiar) but the base type energy, should be about 1.5 Hyper beams of type energy, and that would be for normals. Obviously mileage should vary, such as factors on "does this pokemon have shit off type pools (Vileplume, Rotom, most non Gen 1-2 electrics, most Gen 5 pokemon)" Does this type have issues (Grasses, Bugs, Flying types with loads of weaknesses for dealing with their weaknesses), or even the Porygon with Electric, Electabuzz with fighting, Magmar with psychic, etc. of I get virtually all of the attacks of a different type but not really. Refs should adjust accordingly based on the number of moves a pokemon gets, so for fighting energy a pokemon that only has power-up punch and Focus blast will obviously get less type energy than the gen 1 that has every fighting move (Brick Break, Focus Punch, Focus Blast, Rock Slide, Brick Break, Dynamicpunch, more, etc.) It makes more sense to give pokemon B more energy than pokemon A for fighting attacks. But in order to help bad matchups be less of a curbstomp, we should up type energy, whether we use the Reed style or not. I would advocate for


Normal (and the Absol/Clefable nerf levels of energy base) : 1.5-2 HB's

Has 1 decently powerful move (So if they have say, only Signal Beam for Bug, or Water Pulse for water, etc.) gets 3 uses of the move if it's weak, but if it's around Thunderbolt strength (Significant) 2 full uses and a half use, for Fire Blast - higher, 1 full and 1 half power one.

loads of moves but not familiar, (see Porygon and electric, Electabuzz for Fighting, Ariados/Butterfree/Venomoth for psychic as examples), I guess that's a bit over 2 HB's.

Familiar: in my opinion This could be the only place that's ok at the moment, or at least the 2 Blizzards + an Icy Wind is a good standard, but could go up slightly, but not as much of a buff as other type energy.

On a separate note, I remember people didn't give some familiarity buffs to waters because they had a second type, I don't know if that's a thing but that should be eliminated if it still exists. Also, have we considered giving familiarity in other areas, similarly to Waters with Ice, with Ground to Rock moves, Grass to Poison/Bug moves, Ghost to Dark, etc?

Quick Note- after reading through the thread, I like the idea of type energy regerating in the pokeball, since in theory it does make sense. Furthermore, I'd also be in support of eliminating the normal energy nerf, though admittedly Snorlax and a few others would have to join the "we learned too much shit so now we have to get nerfed party". Would be utterly against the generig Gen 1 nerf.
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:25 AM   #77
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So in that case..
default for 6/9 two ice beam worth.
Default for 4/6 1 HB worth.
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:38 AM   #78
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eh, I'd advocate for slightly more than 2 Ice beams worth. in the current scale 2 Ice beams isn't enough, especially for offtype challenged pokemon. (for 6/9), as for 4/6 eh, depends.
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Old 11-14-2014, 04:13 PM   #79
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I apparently missed this thread entirely. My bad. I tended to do a sliding scale from one move = one use (so if you have signal beam as your only bug move you get enough energy to use it only once) up to a HB if you're got like, every single move of the type. Some unfortunate pokemon with movepuddles suffer, but I find in general it's pretty common for pokemon in a "neutral" matchup to have access to two offtype sources of typespam. If they've got more than a HB of energy for each, most of the match-up is going to be nothing but typespam. That gets stale really quick.
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Old 11-19-2014, 10:20 PM   #80
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So people are starting to consider the Reed System a little more seriously now that there's been a little bit of discontent with the current system, so I thought I'd write up a proposal for a basic version for general consumption and use and a more advanced, nuanced version that I and other more experienced refs might want to employ that better solves some of the limitations of most of the systems.

Reed Basic:

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All Pokémon have pools of type energy that can hold enough energy for one use of their highest power move of that type, or a significant amount, whichever is higher. These pools will be full when this Pokémon is sent out and will be used up by using moves of that type. Once moves are used, the energy slowly regenerates overtime, regaining light energy per round until the pool is full. This also applies when the Pokémon is in their Ball.
Reed Classic:

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Pokémon can freely use off-type attacks,
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Old 11-19-2014, 10:33 PM   #81
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So with the discontent with the current type energy system beginning to spread, people want to take another look at the Reed System. So I thought I'd write up a proposal for the basic version that we'd teach to newer refs and a more advanced, nuanced version that I and other experienced refs might use that's a little closer to the system Blastoise actually used.

Reed Basic

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All Pokémon have pools of type energy that hold enough energy to use their strongest move once or significant energy, whichever is higher. Using off-type moves drain these pools and the energy regenerates over time, regaining light energy per round until the pool is full again. This regeneration will occur in the Ball as well. Pokémon with familiarity or extra energy in a type will have their pool expanded.
Reed Classic

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Pokémon are able to freely use off-type moves without any explicit type energy restriction, though repeated use of moves or high power moves will strain them, significantly weakening moves that are spammed. If a Pokémon uses a Blizzard, they probably won't be able to use an Ice Beam for a few rounds, but they could likely use a few Icy Winds before they weaken. Additionally, defensive techniques that require energy won't generally strain the Pokémon as much, allowing for more defensive techniques to be used without weakening associated offensive techniques as much. Therefore, a Pokémon could safely use Teleport and follow with a Psychic without worrying about a reduction in power, though two Teleports and a Psychic or a Teleport and two Psychics might result in one of the Psychics being reduced in power. If a Pokémon doesn't use moves of the type they've strained for a few rounds, they'll be able to use attacks normally again. Moves like Blizzard will need about two-three rounds before an Ice Beam might be able to be used, while Ice Beam may need only about a round before a second move can be used. Pokémon who are familiar with a type will strain less easily or be able to use more moves before the strain occurs.
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Old 11-20-2014, 03:21 AM   #82
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Looks good.
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Old 11-20-2014, 09:33 AM   #83
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Okay. This proposal works for me. My initial problems with the Reed system was getting newer referees to integrate without it being too much of a jump for them with regards to how the current system does things. The Reed!Basic nicely covers the problems I could see occurring, and I genuinely quite like the look and idea of the Reed!Classic. Good stuff.
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Old 11-20-2014, 09:37 AM   #84
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This actually looks pretty good but I am worried about the fact that some newer refs might just jump straight over the Basic and go for the Classic and mess up hard. If we were going to do this we'd need to really push for newer refs to pick up Basic and only let those who show they already know what they're doing as a whole handle Classic. So I might recommend enforcing them via Ref Grade?
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Old 11-20-2014, 09:42 AM   #85
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Honestly, I quite enjoy the looks of this. One thing I find interesting is that it helps to neuter Spite a bit, since A) You are likely using most if not all of your energy at once and B) it will slowly recover. But this is in basic. If I may ask, how will Spite work under Classic? Will it cause the type energy pool to become more strained? I'm curious on that front.
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Old 11-20-2014, 04:40 PM   #86
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Yeah, it probably would make it so that they'd need to rest as if they had used however many moves of that type.
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Old 11-20-2014, 04:43 PM   #87
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I still honestly think the current system of 1.2 HB of offtype standard is probably the better one. Reed is just more complicated and it leaves it really open to abuse by Pokemon who can pull the trigger on a million different types but keeps movepuddlers in a state of sucking more.
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Old 11-20-2014, 07:00 PM   #88
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Going to say on record that honestly I find the current standard likewise fine. I'm not really preferential towards either system, but I feel were we to go with Reed, that we would need a consultation on removing the 'Normal nerf' and applying it more as a 'proficiency nerf' such that Pokemon like Dragonite can't abuse the Reed system to hell and back.
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Old 11-20-2014, 07:34 PM   #89
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So with the talk of mud puddles and punishing shit mons, how about we use the basic reed system but have a minimum amount of energy a pokemon should receive for their regenerative move pool, perhaps Considerable, that way at least two Embers can be fueled.

Another Alternative would be to make it so if a pokemon only gets 1 damaging move of a type we could have it regain slightly quicker, perhaps an extra minor per round.
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Old 11-20-2014, 08:42 PM   #90
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I'm concerned about stuff like Meganium which gets both screens and relies on them but can only use one at a time and every 5 rounds.
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Old 11-20-2014, 08:54 PM   #91
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Going to say on record that honestly I find the current standard likewise fine. I'm not really preferential towards either system, but I feel were we to go with Reed, that we would need a consultation on removing the 'Normal nerf' and applying it more as a 'proficiency nerf' such that Pokemon like Dragonite can't abuse the Reed system to hell and back.
This would happen.

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So with the talk of mud puddles and punishing shit mons, how about we use the basic reed system but have a minimum amount of energy a pokemon should receive for their regenerative move pool, perhaps Considerable, that way at least two Embers can be fueled.

Another Alternative would be to make it so if a pokemon only gets 1 damaging move of a type we could have it regain slightly quicker, perhaps an extra minor per round.
If you read the proposal, they either get significant or their strongest attack.

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I'm concerned about stuff like Meganium which gets both screens and relies on them but can only use one at a time and every 5 rounds.
Reed Classic deals with this issue by making defensive techniques strain less. Perhaps we can promote defense by adding a similar clause (perhaps half-energy defensive moves?).

I'm open to adjusting Reed Basic to allow it to accommodate our system. Reed Classic solves a lot of these problems but most people aren't going to be able to adapt to it, so I'd rather adjust the simpler version to make it work. Slightly faster regen than proposed or larger initial pools may be a possibility. I'd really like to make this workable, so I'd really prefer to see suggestions on tweaking it rather than "I don't like it".
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Old 11-20-2014, 09:02 PM   #92
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Perhaps make Read Basic a bit closer to the current system wherein if they have multiple moves of the same type they get a bit more overall energy. Basically the way it should be, significant at minimum and capping at extreme if they have a TON of stuff. The idea of defensive orders using less type energy is probably not a bad shout either.
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Old 11-20-2014, 09:11 PM   #93
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Yeah the application of an explicit sliding scale to Reed Basic would help ease transition a little. I figured it was already implicit within the wording what with familiar Pokemon notably getting more energy in their pools, but the incorporation of explicit guidelines would probably allow newer referees to come to terms with the actual implementation a lot sooner. I mean, fundamentally, this stuff is going to realistically be implemented on a trial basis. There's only so far we can take this looking at it and hashing it out, certain things like this are better addressed in practice than they are through discussion.
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Old 11-20-2014, 09:14 PM   #94
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My best suggestion is really to just stick with what we have. In our current meta, it works fine with 1.2 HB offtype, 2 HB familiarity, and fauxmiliarity somewhere between those, in a 6/9 environment. These new rules would pretty much just pour new life into Pokemon with even half-good offtype and still leave the ones with little in the dust. By the time Clefable, for example, goes through all its offtype, it will have at least a couple few pools restored to what it needs to typespam again, with no downside. How do we do a balanced proficiency nerf that doesn't cripple the fuck out of regular Normals, while still keeping Clefable balanced? Doing it case by case /sounds/ good, but it's a shitload of work to have to go through (where is the cutoff? Will there be allowances for Normals who rely wholly on off-type for any SE coverage, what about sigs that grant more coverage, or new games bringing new moves to Pokemon? Do we really want to have to go through every time there are new games or events and pick and choose who is and isn't type nerfed?) and it leaves familiarity and other things in question.

It also means about a million sigs will have to be retroactively changed. Okay, exaggeration, but seriously, all the "gains energy to use X move Y times per battle", the number of which is probably at least a hundred, will all have to be changed, not to mention other sigs that grant a little more offtype. It's switching to a system that's more complicated, blows up a huge amount of signatures that exist, is completely untested in our meta, and honestly there's plenty of refs who probably could not handle it, all for something that's really not an issue in 6/9 matches, which is what the official standard is. I know you think it will help, but it's honestly a bad move in my opinion. We don't need change like this. Neutral matchups are fine the way we play now.
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Old 11-20-2014, 09:22 PM   #95
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You're bringing up problems which will always be problems. If a Clefable is being allowed to be in play for so long such that their pools fully replenish, then that's the fault of the opponent, not the inherent broken nature of the Pokemon itself. Bluntly Pokemon who are bad are always going to be bad. In the current and proposed meta, Pokemon who do not have very stringent access to offtype will not function as well as a Dragonite. This is a truth which is inescapable, no matter how you fry your fish. As it stands in the 6/9 meta, a match up is at most going to be about 7 rounds - and that's probably generous as an assumed average, it's probably closer to 5. That means actually very little will change.

Take your example of Clefable. Under Reed rules, Clefable will get a Psychic at full power, with the next one being weakened and any after that, by my interpretation, likely failing utterly. This is, if anything, less than what the current standard proposes, so it if anything promotes neutral play, whereas the current meta honestly strays far from that.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not out to condemn the current meta or anything of the sort, if anything I'm comfortable with it. It seems to me that your opposition stems very much from not wanting change fundamentally, given your main arguments stand to be true in the current meta anyway. And with any change, things will have to be adapted. Sure, going through things individually isn't a very succinct method of actually reapplying the nerf, but work will have to be done and frankly I can see it being done fairly quickly if it's done through community consultation.

The actual work with regards to Signatures would be the only real ball ache, but again, with any change there will be hurdles, which is why I proposed the idea of a trial period of say, what, 3 months? Run it similarly to how the exhibition trials are going. As soon as it finishes, have a few monitored battles be run under the new Reed!System, looking at both Basic and Classic, and judge implementation of the system itself first. Anything excess can come after, but actually working out the kinks should come before any discussion of what may or may not come afterwards. That's just scared conjecture of a shift from the norm.
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Old 11-20-2014, 09:29 PM   #96
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In Reed, you pull the typespam level early, you get more energy restore before you know it and can pull off another anyway. The way we have it now, once a Clefable's fired off what it can, that's it. It's done. Reed lets it build up more and fire again. Especially in 6/9 with longer matchups than 4/6, allowing even more time to restore, to hit the typespam button even more.

Unless we're saying pokemon like Clefable can't ever restore type energy at all, which carries a lot of its own problems.

I'm not complaining that Clefable is still good. I'm saying it does nothing to stop Clefable being so good, maybe makes it better because it can innate energy restore, while leaving other Pokemon with movepuddles in the dust arguably worse than the current system of 1.2 HB. It does nothing to improve anything but makes it significantly more complicated and honestly is a whole lot of effort for what gain exactly?

Change for the sake of change is not always good.
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Old 11-21-2014, 02:30 AM   #97
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So the current debate is confusing me somewhat. These are intended as alternatives to the current system, yes? Like the current system is default much the way slapstick or 6/9 is while these would be league-endorsed alternatives like realistic or 4/6.

Reed Classic sounds cool, for the record. I kinda like how it requires paying a little more attention than just jotting down numbers. The method in which it promotes defensive techniques is kinda cool too. But I think an important thing to clarify is what 'defensive' entails. Does it mean more ally-targetting moves, like the screens previously mentioned and... I can't think of many elemental moves like that. Does Ally Switch qualify? And, to get to the point, do foe-targetting non-damage attacks like Sweet Kiss and Thunder Wave qualify? Because they probably shouldn't.
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Old 11-21-2014, 02:33 AM   #98
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Do mostly agree with Kairne.
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Old 11-21-2014, 05:56 AM   #99
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The fairly obvious answer here is to have energy reserves replenish more slowly depending on how many types of energy are attempting to do so. Optionally even slower if the user has a million types available to it in the first place.
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Old 11-21-2014, 06:04 AM   #100
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So we could have a Pokemon that has limited offtype (see: Lilligant, who only really has Dream Eater iirc, lol) get a bit more type energy recovery, while Pokemon with move oceans such as Dragonite and Clefable getting less recovery in the long term. This could be something like a minor amount for those with more than 12 pools of type energy to reach into, while a mild amount for those with less than 5 pools to draw from, including their natural type energy reserves.
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