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Old 05-05-2014, 09:32 PM   #26
Jerichi
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So to be clear S rank does not mean "this Pokémon is my favorite and I think it deserves to be recognized". S rank means "this Pokémon can reliably score 1, maybe 2 KOs against nearly every Pokémon, given that everything else is equal."

This is supposed to be an objective analysis not "I really like this Pokémon a lot!"
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Old 05-05-2014, 09:57 PM   #27
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Fuck it. Heres a (most likely) terrible list:

S:
Dragonite
Clefable
Wiggleytuff

A+
Absol
Honchkrow
Gengar
Metagross

A
Dusknoir
Aggron

A-
Blaziken
Tauros
Rhyperior
Hydreigon

B+
Infernape
Noctowl
Banette
Scolipede

B
Electivire
Eelektross
Crobat

B-
Luxray
Salamence
Tyranitar

C+
Braviary
Drifblim
Pidgeot
Garchomp

C
Goodra
Excadrill
Arcanine
Conkeldurr
Emboar

C-
I dunno
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Old 05-05-2014, 09:58 PM   #28
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I'm only doing steels at the moment because schoolwork- I like this idea though and will be making a broader scale once I have fewer finals to deal with. I'll add analysis for my reasoning here for the ones that I currently have used/owned, will edit in when I've studied the others to some degree. Also, I haven't used Megas yet so...usually I'm assuming they are a level higher or more than their basic forms.

S Rank
Steelix- Still is relatively powerful, with the Steel/Dark nerf to steels, and from personal use, he is THE best not-mega steel in my opinion, can generally deal with most threats easily given his movepool and size. Has the tools to deal with most unfavorable matchups, especially with hidden power use, though it still loses badly to other grounds (in my opinion, ghosts that can go ethereal/gaseous are his worst matchups other than ground pokemon, especially since Hidden Power can only solve one of the two problems, though the random Dark Pulse acquisition helps in those matchups. The Onix movepool from Gen 1 helps as well as its long period of existence allows for a relatively useful moveset, having Ice Fang and Aqua Tail, Thunder Fang, Dark Pulse and Twister to deal with most weaknesses, so he can hit back. He's also helped by Hidden Power changes and the general size difference between Steelix and most other pokemon.

Mega-Aggron

Mega-Mawile

A+ Rank
Metagross - not much to say. It's a boss. it would be S rank if not for Ghosts kinda shit on it now, Metagross can deal with Darks, but like the majority of steels, a ghost that isn't solid kind of ruins their day.

Mawile- Was above average, but was hindered by a lack of size, little recognition and for its ability to get absolutely wrecked by Fighting types due to only having the generally terrible Aerial Ace to deal with. Unlike the Steel type as a whole, Mawile was blessed with being the best of the available steel/fairy pokemon, as that effectively fixed one of its largest problems. Now the movepool is quite good and has a large number of options, ways to improve include

Mega-Lucario

A Rank

Aggron - Movepool's great, same issue as Probo and Bastiodon in terms of the 4x weaks, but because bipedal and such he's better. Don't have much to add until I can test him.

Mega-Scizor- it's a better scizor, need to look into Megas more.

Lucario- Super movepool, useful, but smallish. Fighting helps/hurts at the same time because he can't resist as many things, though he has the tools to deal with fairies easily. Not much to say other than ranged movepool is quite good, but has very few defensive options.

B+ Rank
Scizor- decent movepool in terms of just getting moves because lol Gen 2 and Scyther . Terrible movepool in terms of beating Fire pokemon. But is overall great because he beats most things if they can't throw fire at him. I feel like it should be an A rank, but the lack of anti-fire tools, except maybe the Light Screen he randomly learns drops him a bit.


Magnezone- has the Scizor syndrome- pretty good movepool because old line, can't hit ground types for shit without signature ability/added moves. Floats which is good. Not much else to say other than his movepool is awesome to some degree. Should never fight ground types, or let pokemon get close to it.

Ferrothorn- is surprisingly solid. Could use more move variety especially against fighters, but the random rock moves + Bulldoze + Thunderbolt is quite good. Is a good wall/starter pokemon in gym so long as it doesn't tough fire pokemon.

B Rank

Forretress- defensively is the best of the Bug/Steels, sans Scizor I suppose but that's because he can fly. Has interesting movepool but very limited especially from range. Needs more testing.

Empoleon- good, but loses to other water pokemon. Off type moves aren't very plentiful, good SC, has potential but struggles against its weaknesses, and even moreso versus other water pokemon.

Durant- More or less the possible best Bug/Steel in context of offense, as its movepool is pretty good. Issue is that the defense isn't too great. Honestly need more info but could see it move up.

Escavilier- see Durant. but it's slower. also has some cool tricks, though its movepool is slightly worse.


B- Rank
Excadrill- its small, its offtype movepool isn't great and Steelix outclasses it in ASB. Admittedly in OU, Excadrill would be a staple member of steel teams though.

Bisharp (read Explanation with Aeigislash)

C+ Rank
Probopass- is maybe a bit low but fighting and ground types hurt. a lot.

Skarmory- is decent. struggles against pokemon it's weak to as its movepool isnt' great but it's passable. is good because owns only slot as the steel/flying type.


C Rank


Aeigislash

I group them together because while Bisharp is better, Aeigislash also fills a specific niche for aspiring future Steel GL/GT's- they check back the new Dark/Ghost issues with steels. Aeigslash has a relatively decent moveset but struggles against ranged foes, plus the extra ghost weaknesses don't help.

Bisharp suffers from the same 4x fighting weakness + inability to effectively deal with fighting pokemon. But its movepool while shallow isn't terrible. Also lack of ranged moves hurt a bit.

Bastiodon- Love this thing to death. Double 4x weaknesses to Fighting/Ground cripple him substantially. Would argue it would be at the bottom of B rank if not for this. This is also compounded by yes, he can Blizzard some Grounds, but like the pokemon below him, except maybe Bronzong, he can't do shit to fighting types. Movepool's kinda random and awesome, he's just under the 4x weakness issue.

Bronzong- Long ago I thought Metagross/Bronzong was a great pivot for the Psychic or Steel gym, as they are virtually the same, except Bronzong's more defensive and has a slightly worse movepool, in exchange for many, many more nice defensive tricks. Gen 6 has made it useless. It serves best as a wall. But is outclassed by Metagross. Use if you want a defensive mon, but know that Metang is better in most aspects. Granted Solarbeam's a nice trick, but other than that, it's movepool isn't the best either.


D Rank
Klinklang- It doesn't have a moveset. none, whatsoever. Electric moves are nice but honestly Probopass even with the 4x does that better. Signal Beam and Rock Smash does not a offtype moveset make, if all you have otherwise is Electric and Steel and Normal moves.

Trash-Wormadam- Who even has one of these in ASB? I forgot this existed but its movepool is still better than Klefki, but it's the worst of all of the Bug/Steels, though the Psychic attacks are kinda interesting, it loses to Fire types unless your opponent just... refuses to use a fire attack for some reason.

Klefki- suffers from early-gen bad movepool, has no offensive off-type to begin with, sans Psychic/Psyshock, Thunder Wave, Foul Play/Thief or Hidden Power without a sig*, and while it does not suffer from a lack of ranged attacks, that is all it can really do, especially in the context of prankster not existing in the ASB. It's actually not bad as a defensive pokemon, but with the ASB fashioned in the way it is, Klefki is massively outclassed by most other steels. I could see it improving in Doubles, but assuming this survey's for Singles, it's simply outclassed.

*Yes it has other moves of its offensive typing, but a Steel/Fairy/Psychic/Dark movepool is not the best, at least in a gym perspective.


This is a rough draft, some steels I haven't used yet so I am not great on it but this is what I have at this time.
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Old 05-06-2014, 05:37 AM   #29
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Kin will shall have words.
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Old 05-06-2014, 06:01 AM   #30
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What?
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Old 05-06-2014, 02:45 PM   #31
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Grounds.
A= Steelix, Rhyperior, Swampert.

B=Gliscor, Hippowdon

C=Golem, Sandslash

D=Dugtrio.
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Old 05-06-2014, 03:27 PM   #32
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Went through all the final stage Rock-types only. This is what I came up with given how Jeri wants us to look at mons. Feel free to fry my or to agree


S-Rank
none


A-Rank
A+
none

A
Mega-Tyranitar - Yay, Mega-SC!

A-
Tyranitar - Despite a x4 Fighting weakness it has a hard time dealing with, it is still a beast than can cover all it's other weaknesses with a huge movepool.

B-Rank
B+
Aggron - Only a few weaknesses, but two of them are x4. Still a better defensive typing than Rhyperior though with similar off-type movepool covering one of the two x4 weaknesses well.

B
Mega-Aerodactyl - Yay, Mega-SC!
Rhyperior - A much better version of Golem, capable of covering all his weaknesses thanks to a huge off-type movepool. Typing stays a defensive liability though even with its SC and coverage.
Rampardos - Gets coverage for all it's weaknesses and then some. It's movepool isn't as good as Rhyperior's for example, but it isn't as much of a defensive liability.

B-
Aerodactyl - Not the best defensive typing, but it's good enough at dealing with it. Has a rather diverse movepool, though a lot of important off-types tend towards physical.
Cradily - Doesn't get all that much outside of STAB but can deal with it's weaknesses pretty well having half of them covered by STAB, its support movepool is good though.
Armaldo - Can deal with it's weaknesses, expect water, reasonably well thanks to good off-type coverage against it.
Barbaracle - A better version of Kabutops with better coverage moves against it's biggest weaknesses.

C-Rank
C+
Probopass - Aggron's typing, but much more limited in what it can do, and x4 weaknesses are bad.
Crustle - Slightly better at covering its own weaknesses than Armaldo but fall behind in overall movepool as well as moveability.
Archeops - Just not as good a movepool as Aerodactyl.
Gigalith - Much like Rampardos but with less coverage and headbutting power, does get Solarbeam though.

C
Kabutops - A slightly better and more capable version of Omastar.
Corsola - Mostly here thanks to a pretty good support pool.
Bastiodon - As Probopass with a bitless coverage.
Relicanth - See Kabutops
Tyrantrum - Many weaknesses, but all that much off-type and what it has is very physical orientated.

C-
Omastar - Some big weaknesses it can't really cover for, though one is covered with STAB. Still has a fairly limited movepool.
Sudowoodo - No x4 weaknesses, but has a hard time dealing with the weaknesses he does have thanks to having only one physical off-type move to do it with in most cases.
Carracosta - See Omastar.

D-Rank
Golem - Too many crippling weaknesses he can't deal with. Very limited movepool.
Shuckle - It's a Shuckle, nuff said.
Magcargo - two x4 weaknesses it just cannot deal with.
Carbink - Instead of being crippled by Fighting it's cripples by Steel. Very limited movepool and no way to deal with any of its weaknesses put it here.
Aurorus - While two of its x2 weaknesses are covered with STAB, it has absolutely nothing it can do against its two x4 weaknesses.
Solrock - A shitload of weaknesses, has some coverage but misses what Lunatone has and then some.
Lunatone - A shitload of weaknesses, has some coverage but missed what Solrock has and then some.
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Old 05-06-2014, 04:17 PM   #33
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Strongly disagree with some of the rock D ranks. Notably Golem, and the psychic rocks.
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Old 05-06-2014, 04:47 PM   #34
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Yeah, there are many things I would call Golem's movepool, but 'limited' isn't one of them. Considering the entire goal with Golem is to sit on your opponent, his movepool is actually pretty helpful.


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Old 05-06-2014, 06:48 PM   #35
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Golem has the potential to be great, but if you don't make absolutely sure to remove its counters first it's dead inside two rounds. That dichotomy makes it the very definition of D-rank. Note that - as Jeri clarified for me when I was doing my rankings - many pokemon aren't good enough to make D-rank on this scale.
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Old 05-06-2014, 08:51 PM   #36
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You all knew this was coming.


Poison at a glance:
Compared to the original videogame-based metagame, Poison stands out for a glaringly dangerous reason: the implementation of physics and distance in battle means that stalling with Toxic is a prevalent and viable strategy. (Other factors helping this tactic include a heavy Switch = KO environment, how not all Pokémon have access to Heal Bell/Aromatherapy and said moves don't affect the team in their PokéBalls.) As a type that is not only immune to that strategy but also has an endless pool of energy to inflict the status, it goes without saying that Poison-types play a considerable role in the strategies of most Trainers. Small wonder, then, that Venoshock had to be pre-emptively nerfed before Generation V was introduced. Toxic is by far not the only way for Poisons to do their dirty work; a good number of them, even the newer ones, have a respectable set of off-type offence moves to make up for Poison's admittedly less remarkable effective coverage. Even when it comes to their weaknesses, expect a portion of Poisons to have a Ghost, Dark or Grass move to shove in the face of their nemeses.

Poison problems:
In the grander scheme of things, Poison is hardly the be-all-and-end-all of types. Despite its reliability, Toxic will never win matches by itself against anything that can put up a decent offence, as these opponents will beat the clock and take down its Toxic tormentor before the poison can eat away at it completely. Despite not actually being effective against them, Ghost Pokémon are Poison's greatest enemy, being typically considered Toxic-immune and resisting Poison as well, shutting down a great handful of the Poisons you could find on this list. Ground-types are another problem, fearing none but a few of the Poisons below while threatening with very dangerous Earthquakes. Psychic-types have long since fallen as a favourite counter due to how nerfed they are each generation, but they will always pack a punch.


S-rank:
Drapion - This guy always makes it on my gym team and it's not hard to see why. Drapion is an instant answer to most, if not all Ghost and Psychic enemies threatening the team, and even in the very unlikely scenario that neither of those types appear, the reliability of its typing make it a solid option in most matchups. While it's not as type-versatile as a few other Poisons, Swords Dance backing a decent set of attacks (Poison Jab, Crunch, Aqua Tail, Earthquake) is enough to go toe-to-toe with a lot of enemies, and status inducers like Toxic Spikes and Confuse Ray are icing. I might not always use Gengar (it happens), but it's safe to say I will always be using Drapion.

Gengar - The acquisition level system restructuring bumped this guy to Level 6 for a good reason. In many ways, Gengar is better than Drapion - hailing from the original generation has given it a ton of edges, including Psywave and Self-Destruct to number among its offences. Ghost powers, levitation and status inducers like Disable and Confuse Ray are more ways it can mess with its opponent, often helping to waste precious attacking opportunities while smiting away with the poison status. Mean Look is another vital move to prevent switches in an environment where opponents are very, very switch-happy. Gengar's only problems are a defensively weaker type combo and the inability to boost itself, but it's enough to nudge it a few steps lower than Drapion on this list.

A-rank:
Nidoking - Another member of Kanto's old guard, there's no surprise Nidoking is high in the toxic tiers. Without stats holding it back, Nidoking is free to let its Normal-esque movepool tear through enemies, even when its typing is often left wanting. While it lacks most support moves, its access to high-power attacks such as Earthquake, Fire Blast and Megahorn puts it on par with the types normally sent to counter it, and allow it to score crippling effective damage on most things it comes across. At the same time, Toxic Spikes can line the field just as well as Drapion can to wear opponents down over time. Megahorn being particularly prized as another move to punish Psychics is why male chauvinism noses in a victory over feminism this time.

Nidoqueen - While she makes less appearances in my gym, Nidoqueen should not be underestimated. Despite being considered the more docile of the needle rabbits, Nidoqueen actually has access to Nidoking's full range of offensive capabilities, sans Megahorn, meaning it can handle everything Nidoking can. Nidoqueen's additional access to Pursuit and support moves such as Disable and Supersonic also help to sustain its longevity, but in the end it pales in comparison to Nidoking's sheer power.

Tentacruel - Tentacruel's circumstances as a jellyfish have not granted it many moves to play with, though it does get a few nasty tricks, and is frequently one of the Pokémon I send out as a scout while keeping Gengar and Drapion in reserve. It might not have the movepool of Nidoking, but Tentacruel can at least score neutral damage on a lot of things thanks to its Water typing granting it Hydro Pump; between this and Ice Beam, Tentacruel is a reliable counter for visiting Dragons, Steels and Grounds - the latter two not being completely comfortable chasing it into water. Confuse Ray, Toxic Spikes and the new toy in Reflect Type also make it an annoying beast to face. Despite its utility, Tentacruel's issues with Psychics and Electric spam make it hard for it to go higher on the list.

Dragalge - As a disclaimer, I have yet to possess a Dragalge, never mind use it in the gym, but Kalos' sole Poison line scores surprisingly high on this list. Not only is Poison/Dragon a pretty respectable typing, but the weedy dragon has very decent off-type offences, including Thunderbolt and Focus Blast to deal with its obvious issues against Ice Beaming Waters and Steels. Dragalge might not be able to navigate land due to its flimsy anatomy, but in the water or poison moat I fully expect it to be a beast, messing with enemies using Acid Armour and Venom Drench while plaguing the land with Toxic Spikes. This is one Poison who's better under the sea.

Crobat - Crobat is another vital utility Pokémon that often edges in a spot on my gym team. Not only is it able to use Mean Look to punish foolish opponent selections, it can also U-turn to swing the type matchups in my favour. Nasty Plot backing up its decent special pool of Sludge Bomb, Twister, Heat Wave and Shadow Ball make it alright for sweeping with, and if all else fails, it can remain reliably airborne while Toxic poisoning does its work. Crobat's main issue is that its typing leaves a lot of defensive holes it can't cover despite its own decent coverage, often making it more useful as a disruptor than a damager.

Muk - Out of all the mono-Poisons that exist, Muk's movepool is distinctly the most monstrous, with limbs to carry out decent physical moves and a chemical lab's worth of special concoctions. Despite not packing any powerful boost moves, Muk is a reliable sweeper nearly on par with Nidoking in situations, particularly where using a Ground-type would be undesirable. Annoying attacks such as Acid Armour and Minimise are also useful in varying extents. Muk's main problem is its inability to handle Ground-types, often leaving its space to others who can.

Skuntank - Skuntank really only has one reason to be this high up a long list of Poisons: it sharing the same type combo as Drapion. Beyond that, Skuntank is really not remarkable; Flamethrower, Memento and Explosion are the only things it has above the demonic scorpion. By virtue of this, however, Skuntank remains a reliable choice especially against foes who submit a squad full of Psychics and Ghosts to outlast the inevitable Drapion countering. This role as a vital (though boring) reserve member prevents it from slipping into the lower tiers, but stacking a team with one-and-a-half of the same Pokémon leaves the squad with issues against Ground-types.

B-rank:
Toxicroak - The boxing frog is a Pokémon I've desperately wanted to like and use more often than I do. To be fair, it has a very respectable resumé - boost moves in both physical and special spectrums is nothing to sniff at, and neither is its full access to the destructive power of the Fighting type. Steels and Darks quaver in the face of a boosted Focus Blast or Punch. The only problem - Toxicroak's Psychic weakness is a significantly devastating Achilles' heel, and its presence on my initial six will always cement a Psychic Pokémon on the opponent's team, meaning that all it usually gets to do is rattle sabres at enemy Darks and Steels.

Scolipede - If the team needs a Dark counter, Scolipede will usually fill that role over Toxicroak unless Psychic usage is unlikely; Scolipede also often fulfills the Psychic countering required on the team thanks to its very painful Swords Dance-boosted Megahorn, scouting before Drapion and Gengar. Between that and Earthquake, Scolipede is by far the most capable Bug/Poison, having a few answers to the types that counter it. In the end, though, a lack of versatility prevents it from going any higher.

Venusaur - Ah, Venusaur. An all-time favourite of those old enough to play the first generation and still scoring a lot of cool points in the years that followed, the tropical flower beast is probably as good as you're going to get in a Grass/Poison. Sufficient bulk has given it Ancient Power and Earthquake, vital for letting it get around many of its weaknesses, and a Swords Danced Power Whip puts paid to the otherwise defensively dangerous Water/Ground Pokémon. Sadly, Grass is simply not a great type to be thanks to poor overall coverage and abusable Ice weakness against the Waters it's supposed to be countering.

Roserade - Roserade is not like traditional Grass/Poisons, designed with agility and poise in mind. This unfortunately prevents it from getting any high-powered physical moves, and by extension this means that it doesn't get much variance in the assaults it can pull off. Still, Shadow Ball, Dazzling Gleam and Extrasensory isn't shabby, alongside both flavours of Weather Ball (which would be great if I didn't have to ban weather moves in my acid raining gym).

Seviper - A sort of jack-of-all-trades, Seviper can pull off several anti-Steel, Psychic, Ghost and Ground manoeuvres, while boosting its reliability with the rarely-seen Coil. Most of its moves, however, lack the significant strength of attacks privy to other Pokémon higher on the list, making it an average choice for a Poison team but not often making the cut.

Qwilfish - Qwilfish's capabilities could be summed up as the strange baby of Tentacruel and Weezing - it gets a few strange toys in Shock Wave, Self-Destruct and Shadow Ball while keeping Hydro Pump and Swords Dance. This isn't too bad until you realise that Qwilfish has very poor mobility issues even in water. It could make for a nice Toxic Spikes + Minimise abuser, but it's only the defensive prowess of its typing that prevents it from plummeting any lower in the tiers.

Arbok - There isn't much that separates Arbok from Seviper. Elemental fangs, Seed Bomb and Fissure are all very well, but don't make a great case for it when it comes to viability.

Weezing - It's a wonder Weezing got any moves at all, and sadly, Smogon's universal emblem really does not function all that well. A smattering of special moves, levitation to avoid Earthquakes and self-sacrificial attacks manage to prevent it from being close to unusable.

Swalot - Lesser cousin of the pure Poisons, Swalot used to be higher on the list and frequency of usage, owing to a few strange moves in the Sing + Dream Eater combination, Ice Beam and elemental punches. Unfortunately, its lack of most stronger moves leave it to be outclassed by other Poisons.

Garbodor - It learns Psychic, and... wait, that isn't even remotely impressive. Garbodor really does not make use of any benefit of being a Poison-type, save for setting up hazards and blowing itself up. Outside of the above, it's not as impressive as Roxie makes hers out to be.

C-rank:
Ariados, Beedrill, Venomoth, Dustox - Without any form of bulk, any Bug/Poison that isn't Scolipede is in big trouble. To their credit, Ariados does get Megahorn, Beedrill gets Swords Dance and the moths get Quiver Dance, and they do get a couple moves (Dark or Grass in varying measure) that punch a whole in the types they're weak to. Unfortunately, Steel and Fire Pokémon walk all over them completely, and the fact that Energy Ball or Seed Bomb are so common amongst a lot of poisons anyway using these guys hardly seems worth the effort.

D-rank:
Victreebel, Vileplume - At times I wonder if these two weren't created just to make Venusaur look good. Kanto's Grass starter has generally not needed the help since 1995, and these two have been left in the dust consistently. Victreebel does rank a little higher due to Leaf Blade and Weather Ball, but frankly not only Venusaur, but also Roserade pulls this off better. Vileplume gets Drain Punch, and that's literally the only thing it does better than its fellow plants.

Amoonguss - No boost moves, strongest non-Normal, non-STAB attack is Feint Attack. ...Really, you wanted me to say something?
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:41 PM   #37
Jerichi
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Alright, I've updated the front post with some preliminary rankings. Please keep suggesting additions for things that have not yet been included - I'll be adding them in slowly. For stuff that has had multiple rankings, I've split the difference or made executive decisions for now; they can be moved around when we get into discussions. I'll also be updating the list on the last few posts that have been made (they didn't make it into my first draft).
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:44 PM   #38
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You've got Starmie listed as both A- and C+. Also pretty sure Dragonite and Lapras fit all the criteria for S perfectly :p. More constructive additions to come later.
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:56 PM   #39
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Then you can argue for it when we do our discussions!
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Old 05-10-2014, 02:16 PM   #40
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Okay, since the thread has cooled off a bit, we're going to segue into discussions. In this phase, the community will be making arguments for the movement of Pokémon up or down the list. We will be doing these in chunks, starting with Pokémon on the border between S and A+, then those within the A, then the A-B border, then B, etc. You may request that a Pokémon is moved up or down from positions lower or higher than the one being discussed, but you MUST be able to justify it. I'm also seeking additions to the lists for Pokémon yet to be tiered, which will have less stringent requirements. These are the rules and requirements for getting a Pokémon moved.
  1. In order to move up a letter grade (e.g. A to S) you must fulfill ALL of the requirements listed in the tier description. If you cannot outline how the Pokémon fits all of the requirements, the Pokémon will NOT be moved. Failure to do so may result in blacklisting of this Pokémon from discussion.
  2. In order to move up or down within a letter grade (e.g. A to A+) you can give a general overview of why this Pokémon qualifies for movement. For example, if moving up, you may choose to compare it to others of that tier, or show that it fits all the requirements fully. If moving down, you may choose to show how it is outclassed by others in the tier or how it may barely meet the requirements.
  3. In order to make additions to a tier, you must post a basic outline of how they fit the requirements. While not as stringent as movement requirements, they still must be shown to fit all the criteria to be considered.
  4. Please post as many movement requests in one post as possible! This is to keep from cluttering the thread.
  5. Please bold the name and tier of each Pokémon. It is recommended that you also put comments in spoilers if suggesting a large number of Pokémon.
  6. You may reply to or endorse any posts made, though you MUST include additional information or counterevidence to support your case. Posts that simply say "I agree" or similar will be deleted.
  7. Other rules listed in the first post still apply!

To start we will be discussing movement between S-Rank and A+. You may suggest Pokémon from lower tiers to be promoted, and you may also request addition of Pokémon into S-Rank ONLY.

The requirements for movement into S-Rank are as follows. The Pokémon MUST clearly meet all of the requirements before being considered for movement.
  • Its moveset contains a wide number of offensive STABs, both Physical and Special (2-4 of each for each STAB)
  • Its moveset contains a wide range of offensive off-type moves, with at least 2 moves for most types.
  • Its moveset allows it to hit for neutral damage on nearly all Pokémon and super-effective damage on most Pokémon.
  • Its moveset contains a variety of support moves, including one or more of the following: healing, energy recovery, switching, trapping, hazards, SD-level boosting. The ability to inflict at least 3 statuses, not including Toxic, also is sufficient.
  • It has few, limited or rare weaknesses, or it is able to easily cover weaknesses it has.
  • Its moveset allows it to counter its weaknesses or Pokémon that wield a large number of attacks that are super-effective against it (e.g. being able to effectively fight Waters as an Ice-weak Pokémon).

Please be sure to consider all of these points in your arguments. If a Pokémon cannot safely meet all of these qualifications, it will NOT be considered.
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Old 05-10-2014, 03:39 PM   #41
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Welp. I'll point out the elephant in the room I guess.

Dragonite. Really should be S.

Spoiler: show
Its moveset contains a wide number of offensive STABs, both Physical and Special (2-4 of each for each STAB)

Dragon Rush, Outrage, Dragon Tail, Dragon Claw, Dragon Rage, Draco Meteor, Dragon Breath, Dragon Pulse, Hurricane, Wing Attack, Twister, Air Cutter, Aerial Ace, Sky Drop

Its moveset contains a wide range of offensive off-type moves, with at least 2 moves for most types.

Bug - Fury Cutter
Dark - N/A
Electric - Thunder Punch, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Zap Cannon, Shock Wave
Fairy - N/A
Fighting - Dynamic Punch, Superpower, Focus Punch, Rock Smash, Brick Break, Focus Blast, Power-Up Punch
Fire - Fire Punch, Flamethrower, Heat Wave, Fire Blast, Incinerate
Ghost - Ominous Wind
Grass - N/A
Ground - Earthquake, Bulldoze
Ice - Ice Beam, Ice Punch, Icy Wind, Blizzard
Normal - lolololol
Poison - N/A
Psychic - N/A
Rock - Stone Edge, Rock Slide
Steel - Iron Tail, Iron Head, Steel Wing
Water - Aqua Tail, Aqua Jet, Hydro Pump, Water Pulse, Bubblebeam, Water Gun, Surf, Whirlpool, Waterfall

I'd say missing 5/18 types and having a buttload of most others qualifies.

Its moveset allows it to hit for neutral damage on nearly all Pokémon and super-effective damage on most Pokémon.

Dragon hits neutral on all but two types, both of which it can easily hit for neutral with it's Flying STAB or its large Normal pool. It can hit everything save Water/Grounds for SE with it's huge pool, only having Ghosts and Psychics that it can't spam SE on for days.

Its moveset contains a variety of support moves, including one or more of the following: healing, energy recovery, switching, trapping, hazards, SD-level boosting. The ability to inflict at least 3 statuses, not including Toxic, also is sufficient.

There are frankly too many support moves to list. Roost, Reflect, Light Screen, multiple boosts, interrupts, and plenty of status. The only things it doesn't get are ways to force matchups.

It has few, limited or rare weaknesses, or it is able to easily cover weaknesses it has.
Its moveset allows it to counter its weaknesses or Pokémon that wield a large number of attacks that are super-effective against it (e.g. being able to effectively fight Waters as an Ice-weak Pokémon).


Rock, Dragon, Fairy, and Ice. Rock and Ice it has enough to hit with that it could probably KO each without running out of SE. Dragon it obviously doesn't have to worry about due to both being a Dragon and having offtype Ice. Fairy is the only thing that gives it much issue it still has plenty of Steel to deal with it. Ice and Rock are common types most 'mon have, but the things that get extra energy of those types (Water, Ground, Steel) Dragonite has plenty to deal with.
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Old 05-10-2014, 03:51 PM   #42
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So I'll do one to give an example.

Wigglytuff for S-Rank

Spoiler: show
I originally placed Wigglytuff at A+ mostly due to my experience with preferring Clefable over Wiggly, but I realize in retrospect that Clefable and Wigglytuff are nearly identical and Wigglytuff actually has a handful of toys that Clefable lacks that make up for the few things Clefable can't do.
  • It has a ridiculously wide range of Normal STAB, on both sides of the fence, especially with things like the coveted SC-boosted Hyper Voice. It even has both Physical and Special Fairy STAB, which is not something most Fairies can claim, especially those that were retyped, Clefable included.
  • Its offensive moveset is just as diverse as Clefable's, if not a little more so. It even has a slight advantage over Clefable diversity-wise with Faint Attack, a nice little niche move that gives it an option over Shadow Ball vs. Psychics and Ghosts, two types that pudgy pink things can often struggle with.
  • The combination of the Tri-Attack Trifecta, Gen I Water moves, a nice Psychic energy pool, and Petal Dance from events makes its coverage near-optimal. The only thing it could use is a Ground attack to hit Electrics for SE and help defend vs. Steels.
  • Its support set, while not quite as focused as Clefable's, is still pretty hefty. It can do Sleep and Paralysis reliably, lay Stealth Rocks, set up Screens, etc. Though Clefable has fun things like Cosmic Power and Softboiled, Wiggly has a built-in defense in its ability to puff and more offensively oriented healing in Pain Split, making it a much more robust Physical attacker than Clefable, who does much better as a distance attacker.
  • The addition of the Fairy type without removing Normal has not really impacted Wigglytuff any differently than Clefable's type change impacted it. Their two weaknesses are easily dealt with and neither Steel nor Poison are particularly common. Most Pokémon that tout Posion moves are dual-types with other exploitable weaknesses, and most Pokémon that tout a reasonable number of Steel moves fear a number of attacks Wiggly can use. The only thing that might help Wiggly is a Ground move, to counter Pokémon like Drapion and Electabuzz.

Wiggly is just as diverse as Clefable although its moveset is a little sparser, making it seem like an inferior clone on paper, but fills a slightly different role than Clefable in practice. Clefable is a really effective Special Turret, especially with its limited flight ability, but it does only okay with close combat against physical Pokémon. Wiggly, despite not resisting Fighting, is actually a much better hand-to-hand fighter, with its handful of moves that allow it to optimize its attacks and defend itself against Physical attacks. It also has a few toys that allow it to build steady momentum and maintain it a little better than Clefable, who prefers to hit big with a few high-powered attacks over boosting lower-power moves. The difference between Clefable and Wigglytuff really boils down to preferred playstyle, though both are able to fill each other's roles to some extent and do it well regardless.


>Dragonite

My biggest reservation about Dragonite is its ability to play vs. pure Waters/Water-Grounds. It's always going to be at a pretty significant disadvantage against them and there are plenty of both running around that can hit Dragonite with a Blizzard + Ice Beam and clean up shop with Stone Edge while stalling Dragonite out of Electrics. It's too easy to steal momentum from Dragonite and outpace it with either of these, both of which are common in the current Meta.
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Old 05-10-2014, 06:47 PM   #43
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Dragonite's lack of Grass access is a significant disadvantage in that regard. Its inability to switch out of those threarts or shut them down with sleep is also a problem. However, its flight and swimming ability do make it capable of maintaining momentum against such foes. A poor trainer will loose with Dragonite but if equally skilled, Dragonite will often take the win.

Dragonite really is insane. It's much better than Cleffy, for example.
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Old 05-13-2014, 10:56 AM   #44
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Okay clearly this is not an exciting discussion so we're gonna move on to S and A both in their entirety. You may also add Pokémon at ANY tier now.
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Old 05-13-2014, 11:07 AM   #45
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Should Venusaur and MegaVenusaur be higher up? I mean, that Typing and SC combination is amazing, and the access to Rock, Ground, Poison, Grass, Dragon, and Bug moves is great. Plus MegaVenusaur has access to status abuse and some nifty supporting moves.
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Old 05-13-2014, 11:57 AM   #46
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Venusaur is good for a grass type but even its SC doesn't make it a sure bet in pretty much any match. Grass types are just easy to beat.
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Old 05-13-2014, 01:47 PM   #47
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Dragonite and Wigglytuff to S tier. Mega Aggron to A, maybe A-.

Wigglytuff is basically Clefable but without pseudo-flight and instead being a better physical fighter. It's overlooked by people because Clefable is a thing, but it's still a monster in its own right and deserving of S.

Dragonite, while yeah that 4x weakness is a thing, has monstrous movepool options, no Normal SC nerf, flight and swimming proficiency, and an excellent size factor going for it. While it would benefit from getting Energy Ball, or even Solar Beam, gotta go with Kush in saying that, if you're competent with it, Dragonite can take care of whatever foe it wishes. A Dragonite versus a Water or Water/Ground is less likely to lose because of a matchup disadvantage and more likely because of a skill difference.

Mega Aggron is a monster. Quick count puts it at access to 13 types of reliable offensive moves of Considerable+ power, plus Solar Beam, and on both the physical and special side. The real thing holding this guy back was that horrifyingly bad Steel/Rock typing, because 4x damage from Earthquake, Dynamic Punch, and Focus Blast is bad. Which, thanks to Mega Aggron losing that rock typing, it no longer worries about. Bonus points for its SC which gives it that extra defense boost, which two of the types its weak to mostly rely on. However, solely Steel typing isn't great offensively, and while it has the offtype to cover Grounds and Fires, it only has Aerial Ace and its SC against Fighters. Its support movepool isn't anything grand, but it gets TWave for paralysis, Bulldoze, Roar, and Screech for interruption, and Block for switch trapping, which is pretty great. Stealth Rock and Spite as well, but generally this won't be enough to win a matchup against a good fighting type. Oh, it also gets lolsitonallthethings.
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Old 05-13-2014, 01:50 PM   #48
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Yeah seconding that Wigglytuff is as good as Clefable.
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Old 05-13-2014, 04:12 PM   #49
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So basically I'm gonna do every Dragon, regardless of whether they've been done. I'll then scan back and add in a few things people haven't covered in a second post. It is a sin that the mighty Sunflora is not on these lists (even if I did laugh a lot that someone thinks Umbreon is good; it really, truly isn't).

Caveat: I know almost nothing about Mega Evolution so I've not included Charizard X and Mega Garchomp or anything else. Also, I'm deeply bitter and cynical about everything so maybe I'm overly harsh, but I put a lot of weight on simply being a Dragon type as a plus. I'm open to counter arguments on these.

S

Dragonite

Flygon: arguably more usable than Dragonite. One less weakness, true immunity and a better offensive STAB. It gets near the same level of support ability, trading reliable paralysis, some nice Gen I defensive moves and the ability to swim for desert warfare, access to Giga Drain and a plethora of ways to SE Psychic and/or Ghost/Dark types which Dragonite doesn't really have as much of as you'd like, though it does also lack some of the more common offensive types that Dragonite has. It gets Bide and a decent offensive pool to work with though. It can definitely score 1-2 KOs against basically any pokémon in the game but its truest advantage over Dragonite is that it can U Turn the hell out of there, build energy and score another KO.

A

Altaria (A+): So this is much better than C. It's a Dragon with reliable shutdown and a fairly good offensive movepool with the ability to boost some of it. Strange support options make it more durable than Dragonite. Also it gets Moonblast when Umbreon doesn't because fuck you, Gamefreak.

Dragonair: Essentially a slow Dragonite with no arms and holes in its offensive movepool, but you get to play with serpentine physics and don't have to worry as much about Ice.

Goodra: To Dragonair what Lickilicky is to Snorlax. Good offensive movepool, its anatomy makes up for shallow support, gets some Gen I level stuff. It's pretty simple to use, there's not a lot you can vary on.

Druddigon: A Dragon that can rip Fairies apart is always good. It has a strange but very good movepool, a bit of boosting option at both ends and a decent enough SC to utilise. Some fun Dark moves are thrown in there to let it disrupt foes. Definitely the best fully evolved pure Dragon.

Salamence (A-): I'd argue this is basically a cross between Dragonite and Haxorus. It's physically capable and has good STAB plus off type, decent enough boosts and a bit of support. I'll happily KO at least one foe with this even without entry-Intimidate.

Garchomp (A-): We give it a bad rep but being worse than Flygon isn't a reason to discount it. It's physically capable, can do flight and sort of swimming and has a couple of boosting options to supplement its coverage. Again, Dragon and Ground is a great offensive combo and it gets all the stuff you need to exploit that. Also I have the advantage of knowing what its sick new SC looks like.

Hydreigon (A-): So this was never that good but uniqueness and looking awesome helped it gain a reputation. Then Fairies happened. It's still reliably going to kill at least one thing, its offensive movepool is good and it has a great ranged game for a later Dragon. It can't really deal with stuff like Clefable, but it does get U Turn for some reason which allows it to flee like a three headed girl.

B

Kingdra: Simply by virtue of that type combination it's worth using, but it's shallow (lololol) and fairly predictable. In no way is it unkillable despite packing a number of 4x resistances.

Noivern: Altaria trimmed down. Physically capable but that's about it. Flight does help and it has good offensive coverage.

Dragalge (B-): For my purposes it's basically an ugly Fairy killer but it's really just an offensively orientated Poison type with little support. Steel types will wall it even if they take that single Focus Blast it's packing.

C

Tyrantrum: Basically a Rock type that can't use a lot of the cool defensive stuff but can spam Dragon Tail all day. It's very predictably set up and can't really deal with a lot of its weaknesses, which are many, but it's got the offensive potential to rip holes in a fair amount of the metagame.

Haxorus (C-: It's really not that good, but if you're prepared for your orders to involve the phrase "use your axes" every round then you can probably kill anything that doesn't resist Dragon.
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Old 05-13-2014, 04:51 PM   #50
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And then there were additions. No system here, I just think of a good pokémon and Ctrl F it. Emphasis on Fighting types is unintentional.

B

Poliwrath (B+): Has a great offensive movepool and a decent amount of ways to enhance it. Its ranged game is arguable more versatile but Fighting type offsets this. Hypnosis and a few cool support options help it out, as does being a Water type with good Ground access. Can happily shoot down fliers.

Primeape (B+): As above, but sub out the status power and aquatic abilities for enhanced offensive coverage and U Turn. Much better ranged game than many Fighters.

Ninetales (B+): Pure Fire isn't a great start but it gets to do a lot of cool support stuff that comparable pokémon just can't. Hypnosis is great when paired with Fire and it has a decent enough off type to battle its weaknesses for a bit. Energy Ball certainly helps.

Hariyama: You're basically using the bulk to win here. Powerful enough to take on a lot of pokémon with ease, struggles against Psychic spam and fliers that don't fear Fighting/Rock combo.

C

Heracross: It's not that bad. Definitely wouldn't want to have to face the majority of decent Flying types with it but it's usable. Poor raged options is not hugely relevant when you have wings.

Weavile: The archetypal C to me, it has such great offensive potential let down by fragility and most people not reffing it being an auto ninja. Decent off types, Surf is always a plus.
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