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Old 03-18-2014, 07:45 PM   #1
Mercutio
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Charizard Type Changes - Consultation

Type Changes - the ability to use a signature to change on of your pokémon's types, add a new type to a single type pokémon or remove a type from a dual type pokémon.

These commonly require a large amount of drawback, long and excellent biographies and a fair amount of haggling with the signature approvers. Often, they come with the dropping of moves and addition of others. They may require additional clarifications.

In the past, there were combinations that were near as makes no difference banned. Dark type additions are one example. On the other hand, there are some combinations that are considered to 'make sense'. Water/Bug Masquerain is a common example. Some have argued that type changes have become easier to get in recent months. There are certainly fewer combinations that you can't have than there used to be.


This thread is intended to gauge your opinions on type changes as a general concept. It does not come from a predetermined position that something has to change and no outcomes are set in stone. By the same token, this is not a democracy and we reserve the right to make our own decision as LOs. We do want to know what you think and if there's a clear feeling one way or the other we'll take it on board.

There are broadly speaking three options for you to discuss:

1) Maintain the current status quo. Pokémon can have their types changed and there are no banned combinations. Approvals are decided based upon balance and on a case by case basis.

2) Limiting available type changes. Pokémon can have their types changed but some guide lines on what is acceptable are given. Approvals are decided based upon balance and upon how in keeping they are with the spirit of pokémon. Some existing type changes may have to be retroactively rejected.

3) Type changes are no longer allowed. Existing type changes may have to be retroactively rejected.


You have two weeks to discuss this stuff in the thread. All opinions are welcome and you are allowed to disagree with people. I'm fairly sure that the LOs don't all agree with each other and I can think of some vets who I don't agree with. This is all part of the consultation process. Being sheeple is boring!
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Old 03-18-2014, 07:49 PM   #2
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I'm a 2, maybe a 3 type of person. Some types, like steel and ghost should be not an option as a type change at all. While others like dragon or rock really shouldn't be possible on 99% of Pokemon.
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Old 03-18-2014, 07:54 PM   #3
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I favour option 3 I think. Type changes just rub me completely the wrong way. It's at that point where I just feel it's messing with the basis of the game too much. I'm ok with sigs and special training, that's more along the lines with the spirit of the animé, but type changes have always struck me as simply a step too far, and completely not worth it for the amount of drawback you commonly have to give a mon.
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Old 03-18-2014, 07:57 PM   #4
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I've always personally preferred 2 but 1 is also okay.
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Old 03-18-2014, 07:59 PM   #5
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3) Type changes are no longer allowed. Existing type changes may have to be retroactively rejected.

Pokemon are diverse enough today to not need type changes. If you want to explain away why a pokemon might take damage different, then stick to a special defense sig. As a type change, they gain too much and we really should be sticking within the realms of the anime. Some of the recent ones have become unrealistic as well. Take for example, Grass/Fire Servine, and Grass/Electric Bulbasaur. For the purposes of sigs being a slight advantage, type changes go the other spectrum and give waay too much of a change that it just doesnt make the pokemon fair game anymore. You could give them a lot of drawback, but then it becomes just as useless as keeping it with no type change. Furthermore, it becomes less of a hassle for LOs to go through a type change, and it is a lot less worrying about possible future issues like new moves available to the pokemon and what not.
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:01 PM   #6
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I've always been a 2 person myself. For me, a sig change has to be dependent on the Pokemon you are trying to pass it for. If you are trying to pass an Steel / Electric Probopass, you shouldn't have to add much drawback because Probopass is a pretty poor Pokemon to begin with and the extra electric energy isn't as good as losing Rock STAB. Gothitelle should easily be Psychic / Dark even with the Psychic immunity. But there are some that simply make no sense, like Flying / Electric Tailow or the infamous Grass / Fire Servine. In general a typechange should be approved based on balance, and if it makes sense for the Pokemon.
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:05 PM   #7
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I'm personally a 2 on this, though if it remained a 1 I wouldn't be bothered. It feels a lot like nowadays type changes are far less strict, whereas in the past anything with an immunity was either outright banned or heavily restricted.
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:10 PM   #8
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I'm more of a 2 guy, I think type changes add a special factor to ASB but allowing outright anything to type change to anything just doesn't seem right. Then again, 1 isn't so bad because the ones who ask for ridiculous typings on their Pokemon end up having to draw them back so much that they're shitty.
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:11 PM   #9
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Alright, time to post my thoughts on this.

In all honesty I'm a mixture between 1 and 2. As long as the type change makes some logical sense, is justified by the biography, and balances out the Pokemon it should be fine. Things such as Bug/Water Masquerain, Pure Steel Aggron, and Pure Dark Weaviel all come to mind with this. Their original typing horribly debilitate them, not to the point of being unusable, but at least to the point where they're severely outclassed. This generally applies in general to most Bug/Flyings, Rock/Grounds (Unless Rhyperior. Because by got that thing is a monster.), and any typing that's severely weak to some of the most common attacking types in ASB.

My opinion is that we should impose certain limitations. Ghost should not be allowed at all, since type changing to a ghost type will mean that the Pokemon has died... And then that goes to hell. Dragon to me is another type that shouldn't be common (The only Pokemon I think would actually be able to be changed to that type is Gyrados, Charizard, and possibly Aggron), and same with Steel. Rock is interesting, as it really depends on the situation like most other type changes. Changes such as Poison or Fighting would be a lot more justifiable than changes to the main elemental types or the types I've stated above. Though, in reality, if it's justified in the bio, logically makes sense, and is balanced out in the sig it's fine. Things such as Red's Servine are examples of what not to do, since in reality Grass/Fire wouldn't make sense on almost anything (I'm looking at you everything that's not Gourgeist) and would have to change the Pokemon so radically it would even be usable half the time.

One thing that bothers me is what's defined as "balanced". For some Pokemon, it feels like you're amputating its leg just to heal a cut on its arm. Some changes can prove so debilitating that the Pokemon becomes unusable. And when people try to make a shit mon decent, with type changes, they're forced to only make it worse. I don't like the whole "Give up half its move pool for about four new moves they can spam!" mentality, since that's what I feel like what we get from sig approvers from time to time. What's given up should depend on the change, since as stated some mons need the change, but the end result can end up harming it even more.

I'm pretty sure I'm wrong about a few things here, and just take this post as a grain of salt. It's not like it'll help since half the people just want them gone already.
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:17 PM   #10
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1 or 2. No preference either way, just not 3. It's a unique way of defining your Pokemon to be yours. We have sig approval existing for a reason, none of these pokemon are going to wreak havoc on the League.
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:22 PM   #11
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I stand in the same position as Lost.

As for those pointing fingers at my Serperior, it is justified, though I didn't mention it in the original bio because it was a Snivy at the time.

Serperior's Flavor Text:

"It can stop its opponents’ movements with just a glare. It takes in solar energy and boosts it internally."

My sig is simply an amplification of that. That's not to say that every pokemon should be able to throw on a type whenever they please.

And, my Serperior doesn't gain all that much. It gets a Neutrality to Fire and Bug (I kept the weakness to Ice). It's also weak to Rock. It gets 3 new moves while losing far more than that, and can no longer heal in the rain for obvious reasons.

My point is that justifiable Typechanges can make an otherwise unusable pokemon less lackluster than before. My Serperior is by no means an auto win or anything. Plenty of things can counter it.
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:37 PM   #12
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I'm 1 or 2. 3 just doesn't do it for me. There are a lot of justifiable changes, many like Lost has mentioned. I'd add Type/Normal onto the list as well (eg Helioptile). Normal doesn't add anything unlike the games, adds one more weakness and pretty much that's it. Type changes are an interesting, not necessarily anime-evidenced, but interesting aspect of ASB. I'd really like it if things stay that way. Besides, some Pokemon could really use type changes against a crappy type combination or just to improve. I think type change sigs on really crap mons should be more lenient, while on pretty great stuff they should be a bit harsher. And then there's like no ice Weavile and stuff.

So pretty much Gogo type changes!
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:39 PM   #13
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I stand in the same position as Lost.

As for those pointing fingers at my Serperior, it is justified, though I didn't mention it in the original bio because it was a Snivy at the time.

Serperior's Flavor Text:

"It can stop its opponents’ movements with just a glare. It takes in solar energy and boosts it internally."

My sig is simply an amplification of that. That's not to say that every pokemon should be able to throw on a type whenever they please.

And, my Serperior doesn't gain all that much. It gets a Neutrality to Fire and Bug (I kept the weakness to Ice). It's also weak to Rock. It gets 3 new moves while losing far more than that, and can no longer heal in the rain for obvious reasons.

My point is that justifiable Typechanges can make an otherwise unusable pokemon less lackluster than before. My Serperior is by no means an auto win or anything. Plenty of things can counter it.
its "balanced" just not... realistic... grass/fire just dont seem to have the harmony needed to coexist in that manner ;.;
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:43 PM   #14
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its "balanced" just not... realistic... grass/fire just dont seem to have the harmony needed to coexist in that manner ;.;
Sun=Fire

Grass types derive energy from the sun. Ground/Flying isn't exactly a realistic type, but it works.
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:54 PM   #15
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Sun=Fire

Grass types derive energy from the sun. Ground/Flying isn't exactly a realistic type, but it works.
I would understand if Serperior line would at least have some pre-existing fire moves, but it doesnt even have that much ;.;

photosynthesis =/= fire being created from thin air for a grass type. There is only one grass that can create flamethrower/fire blast (that being a grass/ghost pokemon).

Overall, type changes mess with the mechanics of the game far too much imo.
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Old 03-18-2014, 09:01 PM   #16
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I would understand if Serperior line would at least have some pre-existing fire moves, but it doesnt even have that much ;.;

photosynthesis =/= fire being created from thin air for a grass type. There is only one grass that can create flamethrower/fire blast (that being a grass/ghost pokemon).

Overall, type changes mess with the mechanics of the game far too much imo.
My Serperior is going from a horrible pokemon to a mediocre pokemon at best.

And just yesterday or the day before you dropped your Normal/Fire Furret and Grass/Water Roselia. The former has a few fire moves while the second gets... Water Sport?
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Old 03-18-2014, 09:07 PM   #17
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My Serperior is going from a horrible pokemon to a mediocre pokemon at best.

And just yesterday or the day before you dropped your Normal/Fire Furret and Grass/Water Roselia. The former has a few fire moves while the second gets... Water Sport?
which is why i dropped them ;p
I kinda liked them... but then I was like "nah.. this just... it doesnt work from a pokemon/anime perspective"
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Old 03-18-2014, 09:18 PM   #18
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Guys. Stop taking a serious discussion about a major thing in the League and turning into a petty squabble.

Anyway, I was going to say this before but neglected to. I feel as though all Pokemon should be able to fit a nice number of type changes, but a nice number of type changes certainly shouldn't be used for all Pokemon.
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Old 03-18-2014, 09:20 PM   #19
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^Couldn't have said it any better Sneezy.

I'm going to stick with a 2 or 1. One of the key reasons for why I joined PASBL in the first place was because of type changes and the uniqueness they could bring to Pokemon and squads as a whole.
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Old 03-18-2014, 09:59 PM   #20
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Like I said on Serebiiso lonely over there, if you don't like/want type changes, nobody's forcing you to do them. But as far as I've seen most of the type changes that go through are not ridiculous or extremely overpowered, as those got rejected by LOs. Type changes help make some Pokemon better or different than usual, and the amount of drawbacks needed for most of the somewhat out of place type changes compensates for what may be considered illogical. Strongly support 1
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Old 03-18-2014, 10:10 PM   #21
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I'm like a 1.8.

I agree with most of 2, there shouldn't be complete free reign. I'm against retroactively rejecting sigs though, unless they're really bad. While Red's Servine is a bit of a "u srs bro" moment, the LOs let it be, and seeing as it's really not broken (it's still a limbless grass type, or at least it will be once he invariably hits TL4), it can stay.

I've got a friend who's ludicrous at the concept of "Power-Building". You approach an RP Gaming System, and you find/create a build that's incredibly powerful. According to him, there are generally two ways to approach such a thing. The first is to find a role/approach that a class already is good at, and then crank it up to fifteen. See: The Wizard that can smite you with impunity in a single round with spells that have the power of a small nuke. The drawback? No focus on covering the wizard's inherent vulnerabilities. You send a stealth guy after the wizard, he's fucked because the wizard can't do shit and can't take a hit. The second way is to cover as many bases as you can, so you can approach and deal with a multitude of threats. See: The Well-rounded Bard who will cast a buff on himself, fire ranged shots and spells at you when you're far, duel you with a sword when you're close, and then just when you think he's weakening, he heals himself back to full health and continues thwaking you with buffed hits and crits. The drawback is obvious though: Jack of all trades, master of none.

Sigs are basically the main, and only, way that a trainer can work to a power build. Some sigs lean towards one end, some (that is, most, to be honest) lean towards the other. Then some people get creative. Type changes are a very big step towards one of those ends of the spectrum. Well... not that big, but as big as it gets frankly.

But part of ASB is that, to an extent, we're trying to take things at least partially towards a level of... I don't want to say "realism" but perhaps "immersive"? Eh you know what I mean. The type change should make some sense. Trainers should always have the option to make their magikarp different then somebody else's magikarp, but that doesn't mean make your magikarp part ghost. Type Change approvals absolutely should have a basis in reality. That's what bios are for, right? Ghost type additions are right out (I can't even think of a proper pokemon where it would fit, though there probably is one), Steel/Rock are gone unless it's sensible given the pokemon, Dragon, even with fairy types existing, should basically be a "because Gamefreak is on crack and did not give Charizard and Gyarados the dragon typing they deserve" (though mega stones fix the first one). Just basic reason. A good general rule is that if the bio/explanation is a long winded way of saying "he got kissed by Ho-oh as an egg so now he's fire typed", then lol fucking no.

That said, people who are seeking type changes should probably just consider alternative options. There are other and more creative ways of doing it. Maybe just sig yourself to drop a particular weakness for something, or do what somebody (Dave?) did on their Toxicroak where they didn't give it Dark typing, just unlimited Dark in exchange for unlimited Poison (and a few moves exchanged I think), so it still will get its ass kicked by psychics, but now it's far more effective at fighting back.

It also may help to, though not having an official rule in place at all, be a bit more strict on type changes for newer trainers. Certainly not a ban, but generally... well... except for the basic/almost standard things like Water/Bug Masquerain or easily sensible ones like Electric/Bug Volbeat, there should be an encouragement that, if your pokemon has problematic typing, don't change the typing, consider finding a different solution. So long as they're balanced of course. I dunno, that may be somewhat of a big taboo, and for sensible reason, but given that I think people are also very much yearning for creativity than a default to type changes for under-served 'mon, it's decent food for thought.


Allow type changes, yet enforce sensibility, and encourage creativity. That's how you do this.
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Old 03-18-2014, 11:52 PM   #22
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I'm going to go with 0. You claim that type changes are taken on a case by case basis right now, but sorry, I'm going to disagree with that.

Why are type changes even restricted to the aspect that they are now? Aren't signatures supposed to give you a slight(or fairly large, depending on how shite your pokemon is) advantage while also making it individually tailored to you? What exactly is the problem with having a Grass/Fire Cacturne if it's not overpowered(which it won't be; currently, to get any type change outside the norm at all, you have to basically nerf a pokemon to the high heavens.)? I just don't see it.

The apparent problem- which I've never seen to be one- of newbies apparently defaulting to type changes...so? So let them have a lot of type changes before they figure out that it's too much work and they should streamline exactly what they want.

I dislike the current standard as it is; I'd be extremely disappointed if it went to 2 or 3. Yes, changing to the Ghost type means a pokemon has died, so? Is this a 1980s Nintendo game where you can't say the word "die"? Every one of the current actual ghost types have also died, I don't see a problem with that. Yes, changing to a typing with immunities gives you, you know, an immunity. So? Why ban it when you can see it on a case-by-case basis and simply reject anything that's overpowered?

And mind, I said overpowered, not "not hilariously underpowered" which seems to be the rule. It's simply stupid that a type change ends with your pokemon worse when it came in.

That's my two cents, and I doubt anyone else wants to back me up on this, but you asked.
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:07 AM   #23
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I'm in favour of the status quo (Option 1). Although I don't personally have any Type changes in my arsenal since they're too much of a hassle, Type Changes have never bothered me. Things like Bug/Water Masquerain or Fighting/Bug Ledian are what made ASB original to me, more innovative than the Smogon ASB League. Type changes give a new lease on life to many underused Pokemon. Getting rid of these Type changes altogether will be excessive and take away a gem of the ASB.

However, Option 2 is not a bad idea either. If some people are worried about some Type combinations like Fire/Grass, perhaps this option will solve the issue. Honestly though, if I were a LO and somebody submitted a Fire/Grass Sunflora sig, I would approve it anyway. Mainly because Sunflora is ungodly terrible. The same does not apply to something more potent or illogical like Fire/Grass Sceptile.
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Old 03-19-2014, 06:53 AM   #24
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The problem with 1 is that so many different Pokemon exist now. Back during gen1/2 days, there really weren't that many different combination of types. But now, choice 1 is dangerously close to just having a league full of fakemon. You just drastically alter the Pokemon to the point of it being unrecognizable anymore. Aside from it being generally overpowered, it's really silly.

I'd rather see 2 with very strict guidelines (Ie not every Pokemon can get type changed) or just 3. We banned summons for being overpowered and not being in the spirit of Pokemon, so why are type changes still here?
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Old 03-19-2014, 07:16 AM   #25
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I would much rather 2 be implemented, with stipulations similar to what Kuno is suggesting. Type changes should be allowed - they offer an added depth to ASB - but only where they're legitimately improving a Pokemon, or where they are obviously applicable. Pure Steel- Aggron for one leaps to mind as something which has been already mentioned in this thread.
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