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Old 06-29-2015, 05:16 PM   #51
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Yeah see even though I'm transgender myself I really don't know how I would contribute. I would imagine some sort of anti-discrimination laws and the creation of unisex bathrooms would be a good start but considering my situation I don't really know. You can't exactly barge into someone's home and make them accept you so.
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Old 06-29-2015, 05:32 PM   #52
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I think creation of unisex bathrooms is pretty impractical in a lot of contexts and is probably going to be hard to legislate, considering you'd have to probably add an entirely new bathroom to accommodate maybe 10% of the population. Encouraging it is totally fine but mandating it is going to be a huge pain that I don't think people will receive well.

But that said we probably should not prevent people from entering bathrooms for the gender identity they feel they fit.
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Old 06-29-2015, 05:36 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercutio View Post
What should a responsible government do to ensure that the rights of transgender individuals are respected and that their needs are met? What policies should governments enact that they don't now?
I think this question is rooted in a misconception, that the government even has the power to enforce rights like this. Likely, transgender of today will never experience equal treatment by society. There's no guarantee it happens in two generations, either.

As we've seen with blacks, the biggest force of progress was gradual changes in cultural attitudes over generations. There were two big events (civil war/civil rights) but they studded a 150 year period. There are people who have a fundamental belief that transgender is just a glorified game of pretend and will take that belief to the grave.

I mean, let's take the classic. Man divorces wife because he learns she's a transgendered man. Is there even a crime here?
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Old 06-29-2015, 05:38 PM   #54
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But that said we probably should not prevent people from entering bathrooms for the gender identity they feel they fit.
This is tough. Because say a law passes that says something like, "Male/Female bathrooms now apply to the gender the user identifies with, which may or may not be the individual's gender assigned to them at birth." That's poor wording, but let's run with it for now. In this hypothetical situation, I identify as a female, and enter a female bathroom. Many women would be uncomfortable with a 6'2", 200 lb bearded person walking into a woman's bathroom. "I identify as a woman," I say. That still doesn't prevent lots of people from being uncomfortable. I don't really have a solution to fix this problem, but I'm just pointing out "not prevent(ing) people from entering bathrooms for the gender identity they feel they fit" is tough to make happen.
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Old 06-29-2015, 06:01 PM   #55
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Unisex bathrooms exist.
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Old 06-29-2015, 06:25 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by phoopes View Post
This is tough. Because say a law passes that says something like, "Male/Female bathrooms now apply to the gender the user identifies with, which may or may not be the individual's gender assigned to them at birth." That's poor wording, but let's run with it for now. In this hypothetical situation, I identify as a female, and enter a female bathroom. Many women would be uncomfortable with a 6'2", 200 lb bearded person walking into a woman's bathroom. "I identify as a woman," I say. That still doesn't prevent lots of people from being uncomfortable. I don't really have a solution to fix this problem, but I'm just pointing out "not prevent(ing) people from entering bathrooms for the gender identity they feel they fit" is tough to make happen.
This happened at a Planet Fitness recently, I don't think the MtF was that big but it was apparently pretty obvious.
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Old 06-29-2015, 07:10 PM   #57
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This is tough. Because say a law passes that says something like, "Male/Female bathrooms now apply to the gender the user identifies with, which may or may not be the individual's gender assigned to them at birth." That's poor wording, but let's run with it for now. In this hypothetical situation, I identify as a female, and enter a female bathroom. Many women would be uncomfortable with a 6'2", 200 lb bearded person walking into a woman's bathroom. "I identify as a woman," I say. That still doesn't prevent lots of people from being uncomfortable. I don't really have a solution to fix this problem, but I'm just pointing out "not prevent(ing) people from entering bathrooms for the gender identity they feel they fit" is tough to make happen.
I get that but I think as it exists right now, there's not really much of a problem with transfolks entering the bathroom they feel they should enter. I'm more saying we should avoid and dispose of laws that force people to use the bathrooms that correspond to their genitals (after all, it would be pretty jarring to find a transman on hormones who presents as male in a woman's restroom.

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Unisex bathrooms exist.
But they're nowhere near universal and it would be a huge fight for them to be more frequently available. It's the cleanest solution in theory but an impractical one in practice, unless you find some way to cheaply convert existing facilities.

I'm all for more unisex bathrooms but I think the way society is (and probably always will be to an extent) it's going to be hard to promote them universally. There's always going to be people who are going to want their own space, transfolks included, and making every bathroom unisex is going to cause some issues.
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Old 06-29-2015, 07:12 PM   #58
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Yeah see I think my position would be much different if I was on hormone treatment so I don't know if I can really talk. ^^;
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Old 06-29-2015, 09:39 PM   #59
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Those shenanigans recently with Rachel Dolezal made me remember this thread and Talon's arguments that essentially boiled down to 'If a man can claim to be a woman, what's stopping a white person from claiming to be black?'

I should have just ended my points at the time with what Rangeet later clarified, which is that sex and gender are two entirely separate constructs, one being physical, one being mental. While a transgender MtF, for instance, might still biologically be a male until surgery should they choose to undergo it, their gender is identified as a female, which trumps their biology in terms of identity. Whether or not this is a mental issue remains to be seen, there are a lot of studies done and while some show inconclusive results and others show results that say both one way or the other, it's a topic that will probably need a lot more attention before we see what becomes commonly accepted and believed definitively in the field of psychology. Regardless of whether or not it is a mental issue in the first place matters not as, if it were, should you not treat them just as you would treat anyone with depression or BPD?

The subject of Rachel Dolezal claiming to be actual black but born white is ridiculous because the color of your skin is a physical determinate, not a mental one. While sex is also physical, gender trumps sex in terms of identity, as gender is mental. Besides that, claiming you're actually a different race than your own takes on a whole other beast in terms of cultural associations and connotations as well as life experiences and upbringing, and at some point it turns into appropriation.


Not feelin' super debatey but coming back to this thread two years later, I had to drop a thought or two.
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Old 06-29-2015, 10:48 PM   #60
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I saw deh's latest post here and I really feel it. While I don't have a two-year old post to quote, me from years ago was a much different and rather less tolerant person in this regard and other similar regards, and I do not look on those times proudly, especially considering that if younger me knew current me, younger me would be doing the whole "the power of Christ compels you" bit.

Anyhow, Jeri has this down pretty well. The cleanest solution on paper is in practice impractical as hell. However, I would say that because it's impractical I would still allow a person to go into whichever one they identify best as, so long as they're attempting to pass, for reasons phoopes stated, a big 6-2 bearded guy in a ladies room is going to cause a stir, identity be damned, and same goes for a girl in the guys room. Of course, this has the flaw of relying on people to have/use common sense, but it's not as unwieldy as telling public facilities and private businesses to put in unisex bathrooms on the off chance a trans person is present. Essentially, at least at the present time there is no obvious solution to the problem that's both totally if not near foolproof and practical to legislate and enforce. And this is just about bathrooms, much less other issues. The thing here is that while anti-discriminatory laws are going to be needed at some point, the issue is in a way tied to theology so conservatives are going to cling to their freedom of religion in order to keep them from happening.
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Old 06-29-2015, 11:12 PM   #61
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So I'm going to co-opt and resurrect this thread for my own purposes as it's something my political party is currently wrangling with internally and I don't really know enough to contribute.

What should a responsible government do to ensure that the rights of transgender individuals are respected and that their needs are met? What policies should governments enact that they don't now?
More unisex bathrooms, removing some gendered language from discrimination laws, allowing transgender people to marry, etc.

Up until a few years ago, transgender people weren't allowed to marry because the government forced them to use their "birth names" and sexes assigned at birth. Several FTM transgender people were classified as "women" and weren't allowed to marry their female partners since that would be classified as "gay" marriage. Stephen Whittle changed that in the UK, but more work still needs to be done to allow transgender people to avoid discrimination.

Unisex bathrooms do help a lot, though. Sydney started rolling a few out on a trial basis, and they're doing well in places like shopping malls. It avoids awkward and often traumatic confrontations that happen when transgender people first go out in non-heteronormative clothing.

The biggest trans issue atm, though, is definitely the unequal laws. The bathrooms are an important but minor issues compared to the rampant discrimination, especially regarding unfair dismissal and employment opportunities. Also, the media laws need to be clarified to prevent misgendering.

Check out John Oliver's funny but informative take on Transgender Rights.

BORKED

I did a fun Buzzfeed article for Transgender people, but yeah, 2015 is a good year for trans visibility. We have come far, but we have further to go.

tl;dr, discrimination laws and media misgendering/media obsession over private parts are two biiiig issues. Check out John Oliver.
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Old 06-30-2015, 03:10 AM   #62
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I think another problem is, legally speaking, what exactly defines a transperson. Sure, we have MtF and FtM, but the trans spectrum isn't black and white, either. There are people who identify agender, bigender, genderqueer, etc, that, if we're really trying to promote equality, it would be an extreme disservice to not include them and just pretend it's only inclusive of the main two. So, basically, where would we draw the line? Legally speaking, how do we actually define the trans community and spectrum, in order to make sure we're properly defending the rights of all under the umbrella?
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Old 06-30-2015, 08:29 AM   #63
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As someone who actually hires people, I've seen tran ppl who pass and some who... don't pass. I couldn't put a non-passer in front of a client, full stop, and these anti-discrimination laws are going to be very hazardous to me and lead to a lot of lawyers getting paid.
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Old 06-30-2015, 08:48 AM   #64
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As someone who actually hires people, I've seen tran ppl who pass and some who... don't pass. I couldn't put a non-passer in front of a client, full stop, and these anti-discrimination laws are going to be very hazardous to me and lead to a lot of lawyers getting paid.
Anti-discrimination laws work pretty much exclusively on the firing side, not the hiring side. If someone doesn't fit what you want, you don't have to hire them.
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Old 06-30-2015, 08:52 AM   #65
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Anti-discrimination laws work pretty much exclusively on the firing side, not the hiring side. If someone doesn't fit what you want, you don't have to hire them.
That's not necessarily true, as those laws have been used in the past on the hiring side, as well.
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Old 06-30-2015, 08:57 AM   #66
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That's not necessarily true, as those laws have been used in the past on the hiring side, as well.
I feel like I've heard of that happening in the case of disabled people but I don't know if I've heard it in other cases.
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Old 06-30-2015, 09:30 AM   #67
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I'm no fan of affirmative action (essentially the anti-discrimination laws on the "hiring" side), and the trans community probably doesn't like tokenistic gestures either. The big problem is the firing side, which boils down to unfair dismissal. As pointed out in the John Oliver video, the idea of a US soldier being given a medal of courage for transitioning and then being promptly discharged for being a "transvestite" under archaic laws is bizarrely offensive. Not to mention the startling number of workplace dismissal laws which allow companies to fire workers if they exhibit "duplicitous behaviour", and in several states, apparently transitioning counts as being duplicitous. Which is codswallop because being transgender is about being your authentic self rather than lying.
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Old 06-30-2015, 10:29 AM   #68
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Honestly, I think if we keep laws on the firing side, it'll probably be enough to ensure job security for transfolks. I mean, if you're not hired by someone because of the way you present, you are probably better off without that job anyway.
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Old 06-30-2015, 10:36 AM   #69
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I'm no fan of affirmative action (essentially the anti-discrimination laws on the "hiring" side), and the trans community probably doesn't like tokenistic gestures either. The big problem is the firing side, which boils down to unfair dismissal. As pointed out in the John Oliver video, the idea of a US soldier being given a medal of courage for transitioning and then being promptly discharged for being a "transvestite" under archaic laws is bizarrely offensive. Not to mention the startling number of workplace dismissal laws which allow companies to fire workers if they exhibit "duplicitous behaviour", and in several states, apparently transitioning counts as being duplicitous. Which is codswallop because being transgender is about being your authentic self rather than lying.
Here's a situation I'd like you to comment on because I'm genuinely curious:

If I hire "John" to be my client lead, and John is a man, born male, whatever, and now John decides one day (not disregarding his years of internal strife, and all that) he's really a woman on the inside and how wants to doll himself up and wear a dress and he'll start hormones but not right now, so he looks like a man wearing a dress. I cannot have him in front of the client because I'd lose business. I can't transfer him to another group because we're already fully staffed at those positions. Am I just fucked? Do I tell my clients to deal with it?

I understand that "hey this McDonalds fry cook just got fired for transitioning and that's fucked" is a fair point, but people who are transitioning or have and don't pass/don't present well are going to be an issue for some client-facing teams going forward, IMO.
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Old 06-30-2015, 10:43 AM   #70
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Then these laws apply equally to every business and your clients learn to enter the 21st century.
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Old 06-30-2015, 10:57 AM   #71
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Yes, but playing devil's advocate here, it's unfair for John's boss, who may not have a problem with John's appearance etc, to lose profit because his clients will no longer do business with him due to being uncomfortable with John. Yes, saying they should move into the 21st century is probably the most correct thing, but it's just never going to happen. I'd wager that at least 20% of John's boss's clientele would for some reason or another be uncomfortable with John, causing his boss to lose business. At that point, should these laws be in place, he'd have no choice but to just sit there and lose business despite being in support of John's transitioning. It's a shitty thing, but it's a more realistic situation than "the entire would should just grow the fuck up." It'd be nice for that to happen, but it won't any time soon.
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Old 06-30-2015, 10:58 AM   #72
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Here's a situation I'd like you to comment on because I'm genuinely curious:

If I hire "John" to be my client lead, and John is a man, born male, whatever, and now John decides one day (not disregarding his years of internal strife, and all that) he's really a woman on the inside and how wants to doll himself up and wear a dress and he'll start hormones but not right now, so he looks like a man wearing a dress. I cannot have him in front of the client because I'd lose business. I can't transfer him to another group because we're already fully staffed at those positions. Am I just fucked? Do I tell my clients to deal with it?

I understand that "hey this McDonalds fry cook just got fired for transitioning and that's fucked" is a fair point, but people who are transitioning or have and don't pass/don't present well are going to be an issue for some client-facing teams going forward, IMO.
I'm going to quote from the video that I linked earlier, because it addresses questions like these in a nice way:

BORKED.

11:54 to 12:18.

The text version:

"Let's break that bullshit down... Somebody using a non-discrimination ordinance to assault somebody in a bathroom is almost unheard of. It's a borderline imaginary crime, like dragon-rustling or space bestiality. Sure, it's terrible but it doesn't really happen!"


The video was addressing the argument that Republicans were dolling out that citizens should be forced to provide "proof of gender" when using bathrooms. Although that is not the same as what we're discussing here, the same argument applies, kinda. Yeah, it's possible that you might have somebody who got the job and then decided to transition without hormones and doesn't pass well. But then it's also possible that if a monkey types at a keyboard for long enough, it may produce the entire folio of William Shakespeare. It's not likely to happen, unless you live in some backward state.

Transitioning is all about embracing your authentic self and accepting the gender that you always felt more comfortable with. In your hypothetical, John is a "she" and is unlikely to want to present in front of clients without looking most authentically like a woman. Transitioning is a sensitive process, and chances are that John may choose to take some time off so that she can complete her transition with hormones. It's a private and gradual process, and unlikely to simply manifest as "Hey, John suddenly rocks up to work one day in a dress".

When John comes out as a transgender woman, your best policy is to be supportive of the process and be non-judgmental. Chances are, she will want to have her job and continue to do a good job. If she feels that her appearance would jeopardise her performance, John is likely to make her own adjustments. It's highly unlikely that this will be a sudden adjustment.

Also, having somebody who doesn't conventionally pass isn't necessarily a bad thing either. Since Caitlyn Jenner and Laverne Cox, trans acceptance is increasingly becoming mainstream, and people are becoming more accepting of transgender people. If anything, having a transgender member on your team may help your company from a diversity standpoint, as awfully tokenistic as that sounds.

The world is changing, tbh. Fifty years ago, it would've been bad business to have a gay guy or a black woman work in a client team too, but things are changing. Geet is right in his pithy but startling blunt way: the simple answer is that this is indeed the 21st century, and it's better to be on the right side of a civil rights issue than the wrong side of it. Only 30 years ago, you could be imprisoned for having sex with a guy in Texas. Look at what happened in the US only a few days ago. We are moving into a new century, and the bigoted clients will slowly phase out.

My advice is just be supportive, because the worst case hypotheticals of people exploiting anti-discrimination ordinances is unlikely. More people are helped by those sort of laws against unfair dismissal than people who are harmed by them.

EDIT:

Simple proof about how much the world can change? Compare & contrast the responses within this thread itself. Two years ago, deh was saying this:

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Originally Posted by deh74 View Post
Men have penises, women have vaginas. End of story. The way you act or think has nothing to do with it, in my opinion.

Now, post-Caitlyn, he is saying this:

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Oh god what a difference two years makes. I have nothing to contribute to any discussion but I just needed to comment on this and apologize. I have grown, which is good.


If two years can change that much, what can another two years change? Be more optimistic. Education is key, imo. I only know this stuff from medical training, but before that, I also had no idea. Some people don't try to discriminate but literally have no idea what to think. With more awareness and discussion, the government can reverse that trend. Unfair dismissal laws must be paired with more education from the government about how to deal with trans issues. And start with the media and ensuring that misgendering/obsession over gentalia occurs less frequently during media discussions of transgender people. Laverne Cox shouldn't have to answer so many questions about her vagina when she clearly wants to talk about OITNB instead.

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Old 06-30-2015, 02:26 PM   #73
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Can't find an English article about this but... The Netherlands are opting to make it so gender registration on ID papers is optional due to it no longer having a practical use (it was initiated so Napoleon knew where the men were so he could enlist them in his army). Not saying that this is the ideal option (due to foreign travel) but making the paper work when switching genders less of a hassle might be very much appreciated by the trans community.
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Old 06-30-2015, 02:57 PM   #74
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As much as Rangeet is right and Mozz particularly isn't we do have to realize there is probably a rather sizable portion of the USA who haven't even arrived in the 20th century yet. I think that while transgenders are going to become another spotlight issue there are still people who won't give you their service because you have a gay employee or a black employee. I think its a little disingenuous to think that transgender people are the only "risky" option out there. We should have the same protections.
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Old 06-30-2015, 03:38 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Emi View Post
As much as Rangeet is right and Mozz particularly isn't we do have to realize there is probably a rather sizable portion of the USA who haven't even arrived in the 20th century yet. I think that while transgenders are going to become another spotlight issue there are still people who won't give you their service because you have a gay employee or a black employee. I think its a little disingenuous to think that transgender people are the only "risky" option out there. We should have the same protections.
The tough part is that there are "good" and "bad" of any group. I don't mean it in a good vs evil way, I mean acceptable vs not as acceptable in society. Protected groups under the law can and do get away with more in some aspects of society due to others not wanting to have liability in case there are bias lawsuits. I assume this group is too young to have seen the Death Camp of Tolerance episode of South Park?
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Mozz's Van, named after Bulbagardens creditor, was a hidden forum section where staff members could share pictures of their tiny penises and engage in homosex. Sadly, HAVA media, Bulbagardens new corporate overlord, forced it's closure. Can't have porn on a children's website.
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