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Old 08-13-2013, 06:34 PM   #26
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It's not liberal lunacy, it's respecting someone the way they would want to be respected. It all just boils down to "be nice". I didn't write off your analogies as crazy or people being crazy, I said they were silly, because not only are they not a common issue or hardly even an issue at all, they don't make sense in the context you're trying to argue. You cannot compare skin tone or age with a person's gender. I probably couldn't and can't argue the point very well because it just doesn't make any sense in context of this discussion, but I know you will disagree so really this is going nowhere fast.
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Old 08-13-2013, 06:43 PM   #27
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No but you can compare skin tone to a person's sex and you can compare racial identity to gender. I have pale skin, dark hair and a particular facial structure. This makes me Caucasian. However, I also have a certain shared identity and culture with other people sharing some similar biological traits. This makes me a white guy.

Consider that in the same way that being a woman does not automatically mean that you wear make up frequently, being a black man does not automatically make you particularly sensitive to the use of a particular word beginning with N.

Basically watch any episode of Fresh Prince where black people are racist to white people and white people pretty much universally laugh at it because it's a sitcom and you'll get the idea.

EDIT: And it totally works for age too but I can't really be bothered to write that out. It also works for many hair colours, particular body shapes, certain kinds of illnesses or disabilities etc etc.
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Old 08-13-2013, 07:03 PM   #28
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I don't really understand what you're talking about? I sort of fail to see your point, sorry...

All I said on the issue of skin color was that the stereotypical aspects seen shared amongst a specific culture or race are not exclusively bound to remain within that race and are thus pretty much habits anyone can pick up if they so chose to without others giving them odd looks and such. Many of the interests and activities that you may associate with one race very, very often transcend races and are actually things shared by many regardless of color, such as vernacular, fashion, musical interests, and even athletic and extracurricular activities, if you so choose to group that in as part of a cultural thing. So I guess in a way we agree...?
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Old 08-13-2013, 07:06 PM   #29
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Yes, but, see, deoxys, what you're saying about habits and mannerisms and suchforth transcending races and such can also be applied to gender in the same way.
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Old 08-13-2013, 07:08 PM   #30
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I'm saying that race isn't really about the colour of your skin in the same way that gender isn't really much to do with what hangs under your stomach.
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Old 08-13-2013, 07:11 PM   #31
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"Crazy", "silly": the point is that you're dismissing out of hand these views as nonsensical. I'm not even saying that your views are wrong or are right, or that these other people's are wrong or are right! All I'm trying to get you to understand, something you do not seem willing to do, that there are a whooooooooooole lotta people out there who would agree with the following train of thought:

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Race? Something you're born with. Ethnicity? Something you're born with. Gender? Something you're born with!
I know a lot of people in real life who feel this way. And I've seen a lot of comments from people online who feel this way. Even if you don't think the conclusion is correct, the fact that you're tossing it out instantly on the grounds that it doesn't even make sense is ... frankly, it's a bit preposterous. I'm not saying that I agree with this line of reasoning but it certainly makes sense to me. I can certainly see where its subscribers are coming from. They perceive gender as being one of the things which a person is born with; you do not. Given that they perceive gender as something you're born with, it makes pretty good sense that they also believe that gender, like other things you are born with, cannot be changed just because you declare it to be so.

What really irks me though is that you dismissed out of hand even the extreme example of the person who is having a psychotic episode characterized exclusively by rabid claims of being a woman.
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Why should I? If someone biologically born a man claims she is a woman, should I not accept that and move on? What kind of "criteria" could someone possibly have to meet for me to accept their claim? Being transgender is being transgender, nothing more to it than that. I think it's a fairly simple claim to make, and all it boils down to at that point is you trust the person is telling you the truth and not just messing with you.
This. This was your response to the example of the person who's having the psychotic episode characterized only by claims that he's a woman. Not calm, rational claims, mind you. I specifically set it up in the extreme and declared it to be a psychotic episode. I'm like, "Given a psychotic episode, ..." and listed the examples off. But your response? Complete denial that any criteria are required. You instead repeat your position that any claim by a male to be a woman (or by a female to be a man) is one which should just be accepted on the face of it, no questions necessary. And it's like, this is not how the world works. ^_^; There's a huge, huge gap between someone who reaches a decision about their gender in a calm manner, in good mental health and a right state of mind, and someone who is having a psychotic episode and claims themselves to be a woman, a claim which they would ordinarily not make.

I dunno, it's like you're not even willing to enter into the possibility of a debate over whether gender is a matter of choice or not because of emotionality re. your one friend. It strikes me as if you fear that any destabilization of the platform of choice-based gender is going to jeopardize the integrity of her own life choices, and so you write back with this very defiant "No, no one has to justify why they're choosing to be a new gender. They can just declare a new one at whim and nobody is allowed to question that." That's not a position I can agree with. I'm definitely going to include criteria like "Are they calm or are they manic?", "Are their thoughts rational or irrational?", "Do they have a history of psychotic episodes?", and so on. There are going to be at least some checkboxes that need to be dealt with before the claimant is free for take off.

Anyway, it was an extreme case only meant to illustrate the instability of an extremist position on this matter. Obviously this isn't what we really want to debate, and so I'm willing to table it too for now. The focus, obviously, is on people who are making informed, calm, rational decisions one way or another. It's from that launchpad that we have the question being asked, "Can a person choose their own gender? Or is a person's gender beyond their control? Or are there even muddy cases that seem to suggest both/neither?"
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Old 08-13-2013, 07:15 PM   #32
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Something I'd like to point out is that not all trans* people experience dysmorphia because of their sex organs, and are not always seeking sexual reassignment (this is also the case for non-binary people that are included in list of trans* identities).
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Old 08-13-2013, 07:42 PM   #33
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I'll frame the debate thusly: "Gender is something you can choose for yourself. While other factors may influence your decision, the decision is ultimately yours to make." Do you agree with or disagree with this position? Why?
Simply put, disagree.

However, if I had a friend who identified as trans, I would behave exactly towards them as deo described. Treat them as they'd like to be treated, don't be disrespectful, and offer your support.

This is one of those instances where what I think is the truth does not affect how I treat a person. Incidentally, this line of thinking goes for a whole load of other stuff.
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Old 08-13-2013, 08:04 PM   #34
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"Crazy", "silly": the point is that you're dismissing out of hand these views as nonsensical. I'm not even saying that your views are wrong or are right, or that these other people's are wrong or are right! All I'm trying to get you to understand, something you do not seem willing to do, that there are a whooooooooooole lotta people out there who would agree with the following train of thought

Yes! And I'm not entirely disagreeing with that. I am saying though that a person does discover their gender at some point in life, and they may or may not be born with it. They are born with a sex, but a gender is a different thing entirely. You seem to be reading what I wrote in a completely different context than how I wrote it. I was frustrated because you are strawmanning the argument for gender identity and transgender lifestyle by presenting a superficially similar debate. "How would you feel if a young, white man told you they chose to be seen as an elderly, black man?" You basically say. Your point in doing this is to compare how those who don't understand transgender people might feel, especially with their initial reaction. The only response I could come up with then yields from you a "But see, now you sound inconsiderate to their beliefs!" Therefore, what you have proposed from the start was nothing more than a ruse to shut down my argument by presenting an alternative but similar argument to say "And this is how people who don't understand transgenders feel" and then to wrap up your argument and call it a day.


@the rest of Talon's post

It's why I'm more than flustered here; you've essentially backed me into a corner in an argument I didn't even want to be in by presenting logical fallacies and automatically having the readied answer to shut down any response except for "You're right, young, white males who believe they are in fact elderly, black men should be treated the same way transgender people are." I saw it from your initial post and yet I proceeded anyway thinking that my response would be logical enough to end it, but instead you turn it around to make it seem disingenuous and inconsiderate on my end, thus wrapping up your argument with "but see, what you just said and did is exactly what those who don't understand transgenders say and do, you hypocrite "


Anyway, I pretty much quit "debating" a long time ago and we're getting back into that here. I don't mind 'discussing' things (even though this is the debate forum), something I have been doing in this forum, but I don't enjoy debating them like I used to. It only seems to serve to bring out negativity, something I don't need anymore of right now.

Last edited by deoxys; 08-14-2013 at 03:17 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 08-13-2013, 08:35 PM   #35
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I'm sort of trying to catch up to this thread after the fact and it's already gotten messy enough where it's hard to figure out what people are actually talking about.

Talon, what specifically about gender identity are you bringing into question?
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Old 08-13-2013, 08:36 PM   #36
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Talon, what specifically about gender identity are you bringing into question?
I suggest you read the question following the statement in bold in the first post.
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Old 08-13-2013, 08:42 PM   #37
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I suggest you read the question following the statement in bold in the first post.
I understand that but your position seems to be broader or different than that.

Are you arguing that gender identity is a slippery slope?
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Old 08-13-2013, 08:46 PM   #38
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Well, with me being involved with a significantly older man, I know he doesn't quite understand those who are of a less rigid gender identity, although he tries to be understanding. I have to occasionally remind him certain things may be harmful, and that certain pronouns are/aren't acceptable at certain times. I don't have any trans friends, but if I did, I'd be their sassy gay friend and help them out if they needed it. Gender is such a social construct anyway, and I live to defy social constructs.

And, of course, it's not a binary thing, as has been pointed out. Some folks are genderqueer, which is just a way of saying that their gender identity and sexuality are extremely fluid. There have been numerous "third sexes" in many cultures, many of which have some trans shades. So, a lot of what I think is similar to Concept. Man, woman, small goat from Betelgeuse IV, no problem. As long as that's who they feel inside.
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Old 08-14-2013, 12:25 AM   #39
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I understand that but your position seems to be broader or different than that.

Are you arguing that gender identity is a slippery slope?
I'm going to have to ask you what you're getting at or what you specifically mean in this case by "gender identity is a slippery slope". What does it even mean for gender identity to be a slippery slope? What is that? If you can put that another way, cleared of any baggage associated with Internet debate citations of the Slippery Slope, it would be appreciated.

As per the usual connotations of the phrase, I can tell you that no Slippery Slope invocations are in the question posed in the opening post. I can also tell you that, for myself, I don't feel that gender identity specifically is something that starts us down a slippery slope for broader identity questions, but I do wonder if recent views on gender identity are symptomatic of a greater philosophical quandary, i.e. the effect of hyperindividualism ("you can be whatever you want; you're special; you're fine just the way you are; you don't need to change") on both the individual and the greater society.

Fundamentally, though, I redirect you to the question that follows the bold statement in the opening post. What I'm interested in asking others is whether they believe gender is purely a matter of choice, largely a matter of choice, 50/50, largely a matter of forces beyond your control, or entirely a matter of factors beyond your control. Do people believe that gender is inextricably linked to anatomy, that people who identify as male/female but are anatomically female/male ought to go through with sex reassignment surgery if they want to be "a legitimate man/woman"? Do they not? That's the question. I don't really see how you're getting Slippery Slope insinuations out of it, so if you could divorce the intent of your question from that sort of rhetoric, maybe you could make it clearer to me what you want me to answer regarding the question posed in the opening post.
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Old 08-14-2013, 03:32 AM   #40
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Sex is physical. It can be changed via surgery, hormone treatment, etc.

Gender is mental. It can be changed at any time you wish.

Age is physical. There is a concept called "mental age." The term "mental" has to be added for a reason.

Race is physical. It can be changed via plastic surgery and hormonal treatments.

Racial identity is mental. It can be changed at any time you wish.

That is all I wish to say in this thread.
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Old 08-14-2013, 09:23 AM   #41
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>Talon

Your further posts concerning your comparisons to race, sexuality etc. do imply at least some sort of leaning towards the slippery slope problem; that's why I asked.

That said if you want to know my feelings about the bold question, I'm probably going to side somewhere between Copy and deo, so my spelling out of the issue will probably not contribute much.
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Old 08-14-2013, 10:38 AM   #42
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Preface: I have a strict policy of accepting everyone for who they are, as they are.

The question really boils down to whether or not we use physicality or mentality to define if someone is a man or a woman. That is, of course, if you even want to use those restraints.
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Old 08-14-2013, 10:40 AM   #43
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The real question is, why would you not when the physical concept of sex exists?
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Old 08-14-2013, 10:56 AM   #44
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Also; unisex bathrooms would freak me right the fuck out. I don't have a reasonable explanation. They just would.
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Old 08-14-2013, 12:05 PM   #45
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Also; unisex bathrooms would freak me right the fuck out. I don't have a reasonable explanation. They just would.
They're actually quite common, especially in places where an opposite sex parent might reasonably require a unisex changing station or simply to have their toddler pee under supervision so it doesn't go over the floor/they aren't molested/etc.

They just aren't ubiquitous.

Typically, they'll be a room with a lock on the door, one urinal, and one toilet. Sink, paper towels, bathroom stuff.

And the scariest part...

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Old 08-14-2013, 04:46 PM   #46
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That's my favourite post in quite some time, Shuckle.
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Old 08-15-2013, 05:37 PM   #47
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I am not reading the entire thread right now, but I'm very pleased to see this topic around. It's rare in the fandom, but hey, we're here. Keep on rocking.
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Old 08-15-2013, 06:04 PM   #48
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Men have penises, women have vaginas. End of story. The way you act or think has nothing to do with it, in my opinion.
Intersex people. Hermaphrodites.
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Old 06-29-2015, 06:18 AM   #49
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So I'm going to co-opt and resurrect this thread for my own purposes as it's something my political party is currently wrangling with internally and I don't really know enough to contribute.

What should a responsible government do to ensure that the rights of transgender individuals are respected and that their needs are met? What policies should governments enact that they don't now?
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Old 06-29-2015, 05:49 PM   #50
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Men have penises, women have vaginas. End of story. The way you act or think has nothing to do with it, in my opinion.
Oh god what a difference two years makes. I have nothing to contribute to any discussion but I just needed to comment on this and apologize. I have grown, which is good.
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