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Old 07-05-2013, 07:49 AM   #1
Mercutio
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Ho-oh IMPORTANT - Reffing Survey

A duplicate version of this post will be made on Serebii. Please do not respond to both versions.

This is a survey of how people ref. Specifically, how they deal with the unwritten rules. How much energy and health pokémon have, how much super effective attacks do, what exactly is type familiarity anyway? And so on.

The LOs are midway through codifying and standardising all that kind of stuff. We're not making it all one way, rigid reffng guides, numbers based ASB. Ref's discretion is what makes us fresh and exciting. But I imagine most people would agree it's gone too far and I don't expect I'm the only LO who gets asked how much health pokémon have more than once a month. So we're doing something about it and I'd like the lay of the land before we do.

Please answer the below questions succinctly and comprehensively. Please post only once in the thread; you can edit your response if you need to but I'm looking for a survey, not a focus group. This is not a discussion thread and it is not a place of criticism or analysis. There are no wrong answers and all opinions are as valid as each other, regardless of how unusual or excessive you view them to be. Just because Dave refs one way does not mean that you have to lie and say that you ref that way. That would make this thread a waste of time. I want the bare answers from you regardless of how many matches you have reffed or how long you've been an ASBer. You should respond even if you have never reffed or haven't reffed in years. If you wish to criticise this process or if you want to discuss what you think should be the reffing standards, take it to another thread. If you wish to respond to this thread anonymously, PM your response to me and I will repost it without revealing your name either publicly or to the other LOs.

There's no deadline but I'd quite like to have something ready to show you by the end of July so if you could post sooner rather than later you'll have more of a chance to influence what we come up with and offer your thoughts and criticisms.

Thanks for your time.


1) How much health and energy do you ref pokémon as having? For example, do they have four Hyper Beams' worth of health and six of energy?

2) How much 'off type energy' do you ref pokémon as having? Tell us about everything, including Normal types, 'familiar' pokémon, pokémon naturally considred a bit better with a type like Water pokémon and Ice moves. So, how much Ice energy does a Staryu have? How much Bug energy does a Pikachu have? etc

3) How do you ref type effectiveness? How much damage will a Vulpix take from Stone Edge? What about a Charizard?

4) How do you ref pokémon with advantages such as evolution bonus, level up bonus, legend bonus? Do they have stronger attacks, stronger defences? More health? More skill? more off-type energy?

5) How do you ref significant differences in pokémon dimensions or anatomy, such as weight differences, oversized claws or four legs? Do these pokémon deal more damage with some attacks? Does weight increase the damage of some attacks? - which?

6) How do you ref boosting moves? How much do Swords Dance, Curse and Bulk Up boost stats? Do you ref pokémon as using more energy if boosted? How long do boosts last and do they fade gradually or just vanish? Are they permanent?

7) How do you ref 'hard' pokémon i.e. Geodude, Magnemite, taking damage from moves? What if a Geodude is hit with a Double Edge? What about a Mud Shot? A Flamethrower? Rock Smash? What effect does this pokémon using Harden of Iron Defense have?

8 ) Are there any aspects of the usual rules or LO announcements that you ignore/defy? For example, do you ref Steel types resisting Normal type attacks? Please answer honestly, there will be no penalty imposed and it'll alert us to things we need to look at.

9) What is the one other thing you would like to tell us regarding unwritten rules?

Last edited by Mercutio; 07-05-2013 at 08:00 AM.
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Old 07-05-2013, 08:25 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercutio View Post
1) How much health and energy do you ref pokémon as having? For example, do they have four Hyper Beams' worth of health and six of energy? 4 HB health, 6 GB energy

2) How much 'off type energy' do you ref pokémon as having? Tell us about everything, including Normal types, 'familiar' pokémon, pokémon naturally considred a bit better with a type like Water pokémon and Ice moves. So, how much Ice energy does a Staryu have? How much Bug energy does a Pikachu have? etc Normally, 1 HB. Normal types have enough for one Blizzard, which I think is close to 0.8 HB but I can't be arsed to look it up right now. Staryu has 1.5 HBs of Ice energy. Again, Pikachu has 1 HB, since afaik it's not familiar with Bug. Also, Charizard, for example, has 1.25 HB Dragon energy.

3) How do you ref type effectiveness? How much damage will a Vulpix take from Stone Edge? What about a Charizard? 2x/4x for now. 2x/3x beckons, however.

4) How do you ref pokémon with advantages such as evolution bonus, level up bonus, legend bonus? Do they have stronger attacks, stronger defences? More health? More skill? more off-type energy? I really dislike such things. But approximately 5% stronger attacks and more health.

5) How do you ref significant differences in pokémon dimensions or anatomy, such as weight differences, oversized claws or four legs? Do these pokémon deal more damage with some attacks? Does weight increase the damage of some attacks? - which? Yes, but bonuses are never more than 10% (and I'm talking Snorlax Stomping on a Pikachu there.) Stuff like Stomp, Body Slam, to a smaller extent the really strong Kicks and Punches.

6) How do you ref boosting moves? How much do Swords Dance, Curse and Bulk Up boost stats? Do you ref pokémon as using more energy if boosted? How long do boosts last and do they fade gradually or just vanish? Are they permanent? I don't really like putting too many numbers on this stuff. Swords Dance boosts approximately 15%, Curse 5%, Bulk Up also 5%. Also, I choose the energy option which says "Boosts don't take much energy, but pokes use a bit more energy for all attacks." Boosts last 3-6 turns and fade gradually.

7) How do you ref 'hard' pokémon i.e. Geodude, Magnemite, taking damage from moves? What if a Geodude is hit with a Double Edge? What about a Mud Shot? A Flamethrower? Rock Smash? What effect does this pokémon using Harden of Iron Defense have? Double Edge, slight damage reduction, slight recoil increase. Mud Shot, Flamethrower, no change. Rock Smash, extra damage. Harden/Iron Defense also has damage reduction(or extra damage with Rock Smash or Brick Break) but not for anything "special."

8 ) Are there any aspects of the usual rules or LO announcements that you ignore/defy? For example, do you ref Steel types resisting Normal type attacks? Please answer honestly, there will be no penalty imposed and it'll alert us to things we need to look at.Honestly there are so many things that I can't say anything off the top of my head. If a rule appears to be a violation of basic common sense and I think I can get away with making it work logically I'll do so and probably post in S&I too. However I should say that rain does, in fact, destroy DT clones because that makes sense to me.

9) What is the one other thing you would like to tell us regarding unwritten rules? Too many of them. Not a good thing. Write down as many rules as possible, so that when needed, each and everything can be found and sourced.
This is an excellent idea.
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Old 07-05-2013, 08:35 AM   #3
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Since I set many of the standards for reffing quite a while ago, I feel I should answer as a baseline of sorts. But, please do not read my answers before posting yours! I don't want to bias anyone into thinking they're wrong because of what I post!

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1) How much health and energy do you ref pokémon as having? For example, do they have four Hyper Beams' worth of health and six of energy?
I've done 4/6 for years but with the new system, 6/8 or 6/9 seems like a healthier alternative.

2) How much 'off type energy' do you ref pokémon as having? Tell us about everything, including Normal types, 'familiar' pokémon, pokémon naturally considred a bit better with a type like Water pokémon and Ice moves. So, how much Ice energy does a Staryu have? How much Bug energy does a Pikachu have? etc
It varies; I give them at least one use of an off-type attack if they only have one. Generally, I'm a little more generous and will grant them somewhere in the field of a Hyper Beam+ which amounts to two uses of a decently powerful attack. I give Water Pokémon two Blizzards of Ice, but Electrics will only get two Signal Beams.

3) How do you ref type effectiveness? How much damage will a Vulpix take from Stone Edge? What about a Charizard?
I've long done x1.5/x3 for type effectiveness; I feel like it balances better than any other option. But if 6/8 was made standard, I could get on board with x2/x3.

4) How do you ref pokémon with advantages such as evolution bonus, level up bonus, legend bonus? Do they have stronger attacks, stronger defences? More health? More skill? more off-type energy?
To be perfectly honest, I don't give much consideration for evolutionary stages and whatnot. I do grant about a Thunderbolt of health and energy for every level difference, but evo stages are difficult to outline in any meaningful way, so I compensate otherwise. Pokémon in higher evo stages are going to have more powerful physical attacks, for instance, since their bodies are more developed, and will have better control over Special attacks. I also do account for size difference in many cases, so that gives evo'd Pokémon an advantage.

5) How do you ref significant differences in pokémon dimensions or anatomy, such as weight differences, oversized claws or four legs? Do these pokémon deal more damage with some attacks? Does weight increase the damage of some attacks? - which?
See above. Weight also influences attacks that are Tackle-based, but not attacks like Double-Edge where some energy is involved.

6) How do you ref boosting moves? How much do Swords Dance, Curse and Bulk Up boost stats? Do you ref pokémon as using more energy if boosted? How long do boosts last and do they fade gradually or just vanish? Are they permanent?
Boosts give you no more than x1.25 return on your power, in total. Stacking will only inch it up slightly. One stage is maybe x1.15 (roughly) and two stages is about x1.25 (again, roughly). Energy use on a boost itself is relatively low unless it's something that boosts a number of stats or has added effects (like Calm Mind), but moves that receive the boost will cost extra energy proportional to damage output. Additionally, they will tired a little more quickly. Boosts should fade as time goes on, dropping after the first full round by about .1, and two stages vanishing entirely after 3 rounds. Same goes for drops.

7) How do you ref 'hard' pokémon i.e. Geodude, Magnemite, taking damage from moves? What if a Geodude is hit with a Double Edge? What about a Mud Shot? A Flamethrower? Rock Smash? What effect does this pokémon using Harden of Iron Defense have?
"Hard" Pokémon will take resisted damage from physical moves, regardless of their typing, but will still take full damage from the energy associated with them. A Geodude would take reduced damage from a Double-Edge (since it's about momentum, partially) but will still take a significant amount of the damage in the energy. Mud Shot, though a physical projectile, is still very much Ground-typed, so Geodude would not resist it. Flamethrower is energy-based and would be treated normally on said Pokémon. Rock Smash (and by extension Brick Break) would work in reverse to this rule, however, since it is formulated to combat hard Pokémon. A more important question, however, is skilled vs. unskilled blows. For all non-Fighting Pokémon, "no glow, no go" applies for Fighting; if there is an obvious glow, the attack will conform to type charts, BUT, if there is not a glow, you need to either be A) a Fighting type or B) have an SC or sig that gives you familiarity or the like in order to score SE on Rocks and Steels with no glow. So, when a Cinccino uses Wake-Up Slap on Geodude, it will deal essentially XX damage and possibly be resisted, but if a Machop uses Wake-Up Slap, it will be SE.

Also Harden and Iron Defense both have a pretty standard defensive boost; both physical blows and physical projectiles will be resisted. The energy portions will -not- however, but since much of the momentum will be robbed from the move, it will decrease its power noticeably.

8 ) Are there any aspects of the usual rules or LO announcements that you ignore/defy? For example, do you ref Steel types resisting Normal type attacks? Please answer honestly, there will be no penalty imposed and it'll alert us to things we need to look at.
Considering I have imposed many of them, no. xd

9) What is the one other thing you would like to tell us regarding unwritten rules?
We should really write something up concerning the nuances of reffing, because even I can't keep up with some of this shit.
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Old 07-05-2013, 08:38 AM   #4
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1) Health at 4 Hyper Beams, and Energy at 6 Hyper Beams. One Hyper Beam is added to Energy, per level. Health is always equal to 2/3 of Energy.

2) All Pokemon get 1 Hyper Beam's worth of non-STAB energy, unless they have familiarity, in which case it's at a maximum of 1.5.

3) I follow the games strictly, meaning doubling for weaknesses and halving for resistances.

4) I've never reffed situations where Pokemon have significant evolution advantages, or quirkier things such as "counts as fully evolved". Unless it's mentioned in a species characteristic or signature move, damage and strength is the same throughout levels and evolution. The only change is that higher-level Pokemon can take more punishment.

5) Don't recall scenarios where there are huge differences in weight, etc., but if specific limbs are targeted, mobility and other unseen modifiers (accuracy, pulling off complicated moves) will be affected. Weight determines Low Kick, Grass Knot, Heavy Slam and Heat Crash effects, and possibly Body Slam given sufficient difference.

6) Swords Dance adds 4 "Minors" (or 4/15 of a Hyper Beam) to base damage of an attack, before weakness/resistance modification. Calm Mind adds 1. Nasty Plot adds 2. Curse adds 1/3 of physical damage output and resistance for three rounds at maximum. All other boosts are permanent until switching or fainting.

7) Refer to type compatibility. Rock Smash is special in that it does 5/15 Hyper Beams to normal, squishier Pokemon and 14/15 Hyper Beams to harder Pokemon. Anything that uses Harden or Iron Defence also gets this modifier.

8) Not since an example was made of me for one.

9) I asked Muyo over everything I was unsure of via pokes through MSN. Anything unwritten is un-unwritten.
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Old 07-05-2013, 10:20 AM   #5
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Here's mine.

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1) How much health and energy do you ref pokémon as having? For example, do they have four Hyper Beams' worth of health and six of energy? 6 HB Health, 9 HB Energy.

2) How much 'off type energy' do you ref pokémon as having? Tell us about everything, including Normal types, 'familiar' pokémon, pokémon naturally considred a bit better with a type like Water pokémon and Ice moves. So, how much Ice energy does a Staryu have? How much Bug energy does a Pikachu have? etc Off-type energy, I put as 1 HB for everything but normals, which get a Major amount. Familiar Pokemon, to my understanding, have an unlimited amount

3) How do you ref type effectiveness? How much damage will a Vulpix take from Stone Edge? What about a Charizard? 0.1/0.25/0.5/1/2/4 is the scale I use.

4) How do you ref pokémon with advantages such as evolution bonus, level up bonus, legend bonus? Do they have stronger attacks, stronger defences? More health? More skill? more off-type energy? Evolution Bonuses I don't really do, but uplevels/legends take 0.9x the damage they would and deal 1.1x the damage.

5) How do you ref significant differences in pokémon dimensions or anatomy, such as weight differences, oversized claws or four legs? Do these pokémon deal more damage with some attacks? Does weight increase the damage of some attacks? - which? I've never really put too much thought into this, not really having a situation where it would be applicable, to memory, though I guess if a pokemon has an anatomy that benefits it's anatomy it would increase the damage by anything from Light to Decent (decent being the upper end - for example, Steelix's solid steel tail)

6) How do you ref boosting moves? How much do Swords Dance, Curse and Bulk Up boost stats? Do you ref pokémon as using more energy if boosted? How long do boosts last and do they fade gradually or just vanish? Are they permanent? Stat Boosts increase/reduce damage by a Light amount per stage - eg. Curse and Bulk Up - unless they're a bigger stat boost, which is usually a Mild/Moderate boost - eg. Swords Dance. The boosts fade away after 5 or so rounds of them being in play.

7) How do you ref 'hard' pokémon i.e. Geodude, Magnemite, taking damage from moves? What if a Geodude is hit with a Double Edge? What about a Mud Shot? A Flamethrower? Rock Smash? What effect does this pokémon using Harden of Iron Defense have? XX attacks do 0.9x to them, "Rock Smash" anti-hard moves deal 1.1x and everything else is 1x

8 ) Are there any aspects of the usual rules or LO announcements that you ignore/defy? For example, do you ref Steel types resisting Normal type attacks? Please answer honestly, there will be no penalty imposed and it'll alert us to things we need to look at. Honestly, I don't read S&I that much at all even though I should, so I have no idea.

9) What is the one other thing you would like to tell us regarding unwritten rules? Write them down - maybe alongside an update to the site with more rulings?
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Old 07-05-2013, 10:26 AM   #6
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1) How much health and energy do you ref pokémon as having? For example, do they have four Hyper Beams' worth of health and six of energy?

4 HB's of Health and 6 HB's of energy, yes. Whenever I do the maths I always have it as 60 points for health and 90 points for energy.

2) How much 'off type energy' do you ref pokémon as having? Tell us about everything, including Normal types, 'familiar' pokémon, pokémon naturally considred a bit better with a type like Water pokémon and Ice moves. So, how much Ice energy does a Staryu have? How much Bug energy does a Pikachu have? etc

I usually give a pokemon a HB of off-type energy. Normals get a Major amount, because I don't think its fair for a Normal type that learns something like Blizzard to not be able to use it, but nothing more than that. Familiarity I've always reffed as being 1.25x energy. I've also always reffed water types and rock types as being naturally 'familiar' with the Ice Type and Ground type. I'd also give small boosts to pokemon which learn an unusually large amount of moves of a particular type, and have some kind of resemblance of that type. For example I'd give a Stunfisk a bit more Water Energy because its a fish, and I'd give Croagunk a bit more Dark energy because of its movepool. I wouldn't give Pikachu extra Bug energy simply because it doesn't have any resemblance to a Bug Type pokemon and it doesn't learn enough bug moves for me to consider giving the boost.

3) How do you ref type effectiveness? How much damage will a Vulpix take from Stone Edge? What about a Charizard?

I used to ref on the 2x/4x scale, but after seeing how quickly battles finished from it it seemed far too broken a scale for pokemon like Charizard. So now I use the standard 2x/3x scale. Vulpix would take twice the damage from a Stone Edge without any other variables, and a charizard would take thrice.

4) How do you ref pokémon with advantages such as evolution bonus, level up bonus, legend bonus? Do they have stronger attacks, stronger defences? More health? More skill? more off-type energy?

I'd give uplevel pokemon a small boost to health, energy, and depending on the pokemon, a slight chance that intimidation moves would be more effective. I don't really give evolution bonuses to pokemon because it doesn't seem fair that a pokemon is significantly stronger because its evolved. When watching the anime, Ash never evolves his pokemon yet somehow they're stupidly stronger than most other pokemon.

5) How do you ref significant differences in pokémon dimensions or anatomy, such as weight differences, oversized claws or four legs? Do these pokémon deal more damage with some attacks? Does weight increase the damage of some attacks? - which?

Outside of species characteristics, the only significant difference I give are weight advantages. Heavier pokemon would have a lot more impact with moves like Body Slam, and anything else that uses the sheer force of the pokemons body to do damage. Lighter pokemon I give a better chance to dodge certain moves, whether its an ordered dodge or a random partial dodge, since i'd see them as being faster and more agile.

6) How do you ref boosting moves? How much do Swords Dance, Curse and Bulk Up boost stats? Do you ref pokémon as using more energy if boosted? How long do boosts last and do they fade gradually or just vanish? Are they permanent?

For Swords dance I give a Moderate amount more damage before Weakness/Resistance calculations. Nasty Plot gets a Mild amount. Calm Mind a Light Amount. The first round of having the boost is normal, and deducts a minor amount from the boost each coming round. Moves that would boost the focus and awareness of a pokemon I give a longer period of time, and a small lingering effect from the boost until switching or fainting.

7) How do you ref 'hard' pokémon i.e. Geodude, Magnemite, taking damage from moves? What if a Geodude is hit with a Double Edge? What about a Mud Shot? A Flamethrower? Rock Smash? What effect does this pokémon using Harden of Iron Defense have?

For Rock Smash in particular, I'd give it a decent amount of bonus damage to hard bodied pokemon before weakness and resistance calculations. For other moves it depends on a pokemons species characteristic and type characteristic.

8 ) Are there any aspects of the usual rules or LO announcements that you ignore/defy? For example, do you ref Steel types resisting Normal type attacks? Please answer honestly, there will be no penalty imposed and it'll alert us to things we need to look at.

If I do then I'm not aware that I do it. So off the top of my head, no.

9) What is the one other thing you would like to tell us regarding unwritten rules?

Nothing really. I think its great that different referee's can do things in the way that they perceive it without following a particularly strict ruleset, but obviously there have to be certain standards that are met.


Good idea.
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Old 07-05-2013, 10:44 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercutio View Post
[I]


1) How much health and energy do you ref pokémon as having? For example, do they have four Hyper Beams' worth of health and six of energy?

4/6, or in the new scale 60/90


2) How much 'off type energy' do you ref pokémon as having? Tell us about everything, including Normal types, 'familiar' pokémon, pokémon naturally considred a bit better with a type like Water pokémon and Ice moves. So, how much Ice energy does a Staryu have? How much Bug energy does a Pikachu have? etc

This will take a while.

Normals- evolution levels increase the amount slightly, but the general area is 1 of the strongest move + 1 of the weakest. so for those normals with say, Thunder and Thunder Wave (among other electric moves), they would get a Thunder, and a Thunder Wave's worth of electric energy, give or take. higher leveled pokemon would get a bit more, but still less than other types.

General - so pokemon like Pikachu with Bug energy.
It varies, depends on the number of moves, which is checked through Veekun. So if a pokemon learns say, 1 move of a given type, the type energy is different, so for most electrics and Signal Beam, they get 3 of them because the move is not particuarly strong. If the one move was something like Thunderbolt, you'd get 1.5, maybe 2 depending on evolution level. If the move was Thunder strength or higher, you get 1, and a severely weakened one. Weaker moves get more uses. the more moves you have of a given type, the more energy you get, though for non-familiar uses, it caps at a Blizzard and a half in most cases.

Familiars/Near Familiar
This is the final level other than having unlimited type energy of their type. To clarify, if a pokemon is said to be familiar with an energy type they get slightly over 2 Blizzards worth of type energy, aka a lot of it. This is the only area where you'd get enough type energy to burn it all to KO an opponent. In the example of Staryu/other waters and Ice energy- they would get this much in Ice energy, evolution level dependent, for example, Mudkip would get slightly under 2 Blizzards worth of ice energy, Marshtomp would get around 2 Blizzards, Swampert would get slightly more than 2 Blizzards.

Types that get this boost without other mentions in SC's, Sigs, etc.
(order is original type of pokemon (to) energy of other move used)
Water to Ice
Ice to Water
Rock to Ground
Ground to Rock
Ghost to Dark
Dark to Ghost
Pokemon who lose a type from evolving/changing (so Rotom with Ghost energy)

Other situations (SC's, certain pokemon, etc.)

In this case, there are some pokemon who have a lot of moves of a type, they usually max out at 1.5 Blizzards, examples of this would be Volbeat with Electric, Golduck, Venomoth/Butterfree, Clefable with Psychic, etc. Porygon would count for electric, but because of his normal typing, it gets more electric than other Normals, but still not nearly as much energy as other comparable pokemon in this category.

I also lump some other types in this category, in terms of they get increased type energy in other types, but it's not nearly large enough to be considered Familiar.

Bug to Grass

Fire to Grass

Steel to Rock (Varies- this mostly applies to inorganic steels that aren't already Steel/Rock or Steel/Ground, barring things like Magneton/zone )

Steel to Ground (Varies- this mostly applies to inorganic steels that aren't already Steel/Rock or Steel/Ground, barring things like Magneton/zone )

Psychic to Ghost

Poison to Grass

Grass to Poison

Rock to Steel (certain ones)

Ground to Steel (Certain ones)

Ghost to Psychic



3) How do you ref type effectiveness? How much damage will a Vulpix take from Stone Edge? What about a Charizard?

Vulpix- 18 minors, Charizard 36. (2x/4x)


4) How do you ref pokémon with advantages such as evolution bonus, level up bonus, legend bonus? Do they have stronger attacks, stronger defences? More health? More skill? more off-type energy?

usually the main difference is that stronger evolutions have better defenses and slightly higher type energy than lower pre-evolutions. I haven't reffed a legend but I feel like I would give them an even larger boost to those, plus an attack boost

5) How do you ref significant differences in pokémon dimensions or anatomy, such as weight differences, oversized claws or four legs? Do these pokémon deal more damage with some attacks? Does weight increase the damage of some attacks? - which?

weight increases damage, if it's in the species characteristics, it'll boost depending on claws/head, etc. a good example is that if unnoted, a weight difference where it's a significant difference (like one poke is 1.5x/2x the other target's weight the damage starts at significant.

6) How do you ref boosting moves? How much do Swords Dance, Curse and Bulk Up boost stats? Do you ref pokémon as using more energy if boosted? How long do boosts last and do they fade gradually or just vanish? Are they permanent?

Swords dance boosts moves by 2 minors before other calcs
Curse only boosts attack by 1 minor, same for defense, reflexes are slowed.
Bulk Up also 1 Minor in boost for attack/defense.

they vanish over time, usually 4-5 rounds


7) How do you ref 'hard' pokémon i.e. Geodude, Magnemite, taking damage from moves? What if a Geodude is hit with a Double Edge? What about a Mud Shot? A Flamethrower? Rock Smash? What effect does this pokémon using Harden of Iron Defense have?

Effectively, "Hard" pokemon take some reduced damage from physical moves, this reduction is increased when the move doesn't have energy of some sort involved. They don't get a boost from projectiles, so while an Aqua Tail would be slightly reduced, a Water Gun wouldn't be, even though in the case of Light Screen they are both considered physical moves.

Double Edge- depends on size, damage will be reduced by resistance, but if there's a size difference that matters, a reduction in damage from a Geodude taking a Double Edge from a Pikachu, is going to be far higher than the same Geodude taking a Double Edge from a Metagross/Snorlax.

Mud Shot- full damage, weaknesses/resistances apply, but it wouldn't change

Flamethrower- see Mud Shot.

Rock Smash, increased damage to start, even before weakness/resistances

Harden/Iron Defense- Defenses increase, I haven't really had to ref something like this so it's not something I've tested in the past, but I would ref the boosts the same as any other pokemon, but I want to say that I would make some physical moves cause recoil to the attacker, depending on size/resistance, etc.


8 ) Are there any aspects of the usual rules or LO announcements that you ignore/defy? For example, do you ref Steel types resisting Normal type attacks? Please answer honestly, there will be no penalty imposed and it'll alert us to things we need to look at.

Steels resist normal physical moves, so stuff like Mega Kick/Punch they resist, not Round/Secret Power/etc.

Time limits don't exist except in extreme circumstances, within reason- like for example, in a current PorygonZ v Drifblm match, the Drifblim suicide attempt would have gotten off at least the first 2 attacks. At the same time, barring incapacitating factors like sleep, paralysis or severe confusion, the pokemon on the other end of the WTDFCSB would have a much higher, virtually guaranteed ability to only take partial damage, if not dodge the final move, especially if it is 3 high powered moves as a whole, though in some cases I would end the round early.


*edit, blaze brings a good point* yeah, i don't do the partial SE for not exposed flame, but rather increase damage for hitting expose flame for those fires that are not the Magmar or Ponyta lines

9) What is the one other thing you would like to tell us regarding unwritten rules?
let people make their own nuances, one of the good things about the league is that it's differences in each battle through the choices of the ref and battlers. I feel like people should be left to their own devices unless they are completely wrong, like Thunderbolt only dealing .45 of a hyper beam, or RNGing a bunch of Beedrills U-Turning a pokemon to death, or not giving waters familiarity to ice :p . But in all seriousness, we shouldn't try to be too rigid with how people ref, because otherwise we could create a system where nothing creative could ever happen because either all refs have to decide things the same way or get yelled at by everyone else.


Inb4"you are wrong FW"
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Old 07-05-2013, 10:49 AM   #8
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Old 07-05-2013, 10:56 AM   #9
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1) How much health and energy do you ref pokémon as having? For example, do they have four Hyper Beams' worth of health and six of energy?

I ref Pokemon as having 4 HB of health, and 6 HB of energy. However, I am open to giving them 6/9, since it makes more sense.

2) How much 'off type energy' do you ref pokémon as having? Tell us about everything, including Normal types, 'familiar' pokémon, pokémon naturally considred a bit better with a type like Water pokémon and Ice moves. So, how much Ice energy does a Staryu have? How much Bug energy does a Pikachu have? etc

Most Pokemon generally have 1 HB of off-type energy. Some Pokemon, like Dustox, may have a little more off-type energy, in this case Psychic, depending on their movepool, but especially if they get something weird that other Pokemon most likely don't. For example, Dustox gets the Screens and Psybeam, moves Bug and Poison types don't usually get. In this case, it ranges somewhere between 1.1 to 1.4 HB of energy. Familiars gets 1.5 HB of energy if it isn't explicitly said. For example, Waters with Ice, Ground types with Rock moves etc. Dragons are the sole exception to this rule, as I ref them have slightly more than 1 HB of fire energy to balance them out more. If the familiarity is explicitly mentioned in the SC, like Probopass and Electric, then they get 2 HB. Familiarity by sig is always 1.5 HB. Normals always get exactly a Fire Blast worth of off-type energy, with the exception of Bibarel and Ice moves because of its Water typing.

3) How do you ref type effectiveness? How much damage will a Vulpix take from Stone Edge? What about a Charizard?

Type effectiveness for me goes like this: 0(immunity)/ 0.5(quad-resistance)/ 0.66(resistance)/ 1(neutral)/ 1.5(weakness)/ 2(Quad-weakness). Pokemon that would have a sig that lowers SE damages from 400% to 300% have it lowered from 200% to 150%. If it has a sig that lowers it from 200% to 150%, then it gets lowered ~ 112%. In my mind, the math has to be the same otherwise you are cheating on the sig.

4) How do you ref pokémon with advantages such as evolution bonus, level up bonus, legend bonus? Do they have stronger attacks, stronger defences? More health? More skill? more off-type energy?

Evo and level-up bonuses are 1.1 each, stacking additively. So, an up-level Kingdra facing a Porygon would have 30% increased attack power and take 30% less damage. I am thinking of lowering this to 5% though, since I do know how 30% can screw people up(the mentioned Kingdra versus Porygon happened in my Gym Match against Dave). This is now to be applied additively, not multiplied with other boosts.

5) How do you ref significant differences in pokémon dimensions or anatomy, such as weight differences, oversized claws or four legs? Do these pokémon deal more damage with some attacks? Does weight increase the damage of some attacks? - which?

Pokemon with significant weight advantages get their physical moves powered up. Any more which might require a good amount of force or weight(i.e. Body Slam, Superpower but not Stone Edge) will be boosted. Max Possible boost is 25%, applied additively, and that is when a Snorlax is facing like a Pikachu or something. Body Slam's paralysis chance is also affected by this, but that is more based on how many times an opponent outweighs the Pokemon more than actual weight difference.

6) How do you ref boosting moves? How much do Swords Dance, Curse and Bulk Up boost stats? Do you ref pokémon as using more energy if boosted? How long do boosts last and do they fade gradually or just vanish? Are they permanent?

Swords Dance and other 2 stage boosting moves boost by 1.2x. Calm Mind and other 1 stage boosting moves boost by 1.1x. The boosts use energy and the moves use more energy as well. Most boosting moves cost moderate energy, with exception being Belly Drum, which costs considerable. Belly Drum(now that I remember it) gives a 1.6x boost, but energy use is doubled and all physical moves have a 20-25% chance of missing. Boosts will vanish after a certain amount of rounds. Swords Dance et al vanish after two round, Calm Mind et al vanish after four rounds. Belly Drum after three.

7) How do you ref 'hard' pokémon i.e. Geodude, Magnemite, taking damage from moves? What if a Geodude is hit with a Double Edge? What about a Mud Shot? A Flamethrower? Rock Smash? What effect does this pokémon using Harden of Iron Defense have?

"Hard Pokemon" that are of the Rock or Steel type will take resisted damage from XX moves or NO moves that are physical(i.e. Double Edge but not Secret Power). Steel types have a 0.5 resistance to XX moves, while Rocks have a 0.66. If it is a Rock/steel type, then it is 0.5. Rocks takes 0.66 damage from NO energy moves, while Steels take neutral damage. Rock/Steels takes 0.66. All other moves affect normally. Mus Shot will still deal double damage, as will Flamethrower. Rock Smash deals 1.5 times the damage to Rock and Steel types like Brick Break deals 1.25 times the damage, additively. Harden or Iron Defense gives the user a rise in defense, meaning that most physical moves will deal reduced damage. Double Edge, Stone Edge, and Icicle Crash are some examples. However, moves like Mud Shot/Bomb and Water type moves are different, as they are unaffected my these buffs. Harden gives a 0.8x reduction in damage, while Iron Defense is equivalent to a resistance.

8 ) Are there any aspects of the usual rules or LO announcements that you ignore/defy? For example, do you ref Steel types resisting Normal type attacks? Please answer honestly, there will be no penalty imposed and it'll alert us to things we need to look at.

Fire types and Water type moves are the big ones. There are so few Fire types with exposed flames that it really seems to be giving some like Vulpix and ninetales a nice advantage while some like slugma and Magcargo get the shit end of the stick on it. All Fire types are affected by Water type moves the same. No exception.

9) What is the one other thing you would like to tell us regarding unwritten rules?

Write the damn things down, and don't get mad at new refs for not following these unwritten rules, especially if they have never heard of them before.
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Old 07-05-2013, 11:25 AM   #10
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1) How much health and energy do you ref pokémon as having? For example, do they have four Hyper Beams' worth of health and six of energy?

4 HB health, 6 HB energy

2) How much 'off type energy' do you ref pokémon as having? Tell us about everything, including Normal types, 'familiar' pokémon, pokémon naturally considred a bit better with a type like Water pokémon and Ice moves. So, how much Ice energy does a Staryu have? How much Bug energy does a Pikachu have? etc

Normally enough for two moves of Significant power (So a HB plus Mild). Normals get a Major amount, or up to a single HB if they have a move that requires up to a HB of said energy type. Things like pure Waters get a HB plus a Major amount when dealing with their respective off-type (in this case Ice), whereas a Water/X where X is a type that takes neutral or resisted damage from the off-type gets a HB plus a Significant amount, and where X is a type that takes SE damage from the off-type gets a HB plus a Good amount. I ref Familiar and Proficient as two different things. Familiar gets 2 HB, Proficient I treat as though it were that type and thus has a limitless pool of that energy type.

3) How do you ref type effectiveness? How much damage will a Vulpix take from Stone Edge? What about a Charizard?

I've always found the 2/3 scale works fine. Though on the topic of Fire types, only those which actually have open flames will take the modified Water damage. If they don't it's flat SE damage just like any other type.

4) How do you ref pokémon with advantages such as evolution bonus, level up bonus, legend bonus? Do they have stronger attacks, stronger defences? More health? More skill? more off-type energy?

For Level-Up bonuses, every level a Pokemon gains 1 HB health and 1.5 HB energy (as per old Muyo rule of thumb), it just becomes negligible when fighting a 'mon of equal level and thus we scale back down to 4/6. Thus a level 2 fighting a level 1 will have 5/7.5 versus their 4/6, but a level 3 (6/9) fighting a level 2 (5/7.5) gets scaled back down as if the level 2 was at 4/6 and the level 3 was at 4.8/7.2, and the same scenario between a level 6 (9/13.5) and a level 7 (10/15) would scale down to 4/6 versus 4.44/6.66. Basically the level-up bonus becomes less noticeable the higher in level you are. Legends are treated as though they have an additional level added to the mix, and are also given the evolution bonus. The way I treat evolution, however, is to only give 1.1x as much health/energy, with everything being scaled down according to the lowest evolved Pokemon on either teams. Beyond that the Pokemon is more skilled, and thus will get their attacks in more quickly and have a higher chance of idle dodge.

5) How do you ref significant differences in pokémon dimensions or anatomy, such as weight differences, oversized claws or four legs? Do these pokémon deal more damage with some attacks? Does weight increase the damage of some attacks? - which?

The only time weight is going to affect an attack is when it is used for crushing. Anything else isn't going to matter, since speed also factors into the mix and they more often than not are going to move slower than their lighter counterparts. However, a Sandslash is going to be doing more damage than a Sandshrew is with it's claws, but not too horribly much more since most of the damage is coming from the wonderful energy surrounding them. The only time damage is affected too horribly is when multiple appendages are used or if the Pokemon is using typeless physical attacks.

6) How do you ref boosting moves? How much do Swords Dance, Curse and Bulk Up boost stats? Do you ref pokémon as using more energy if boosted? How long do boosts last and do they fade gradually or just vanish? Are they permanent?

Curse is the strongest boosting move, aside from Belly Drum (which I do 40% because 50 is absurd even for that), and I have never been okay with nerfing it. It's written in it's descript that it boosts by about 1/3 so I give it a 33% boost. Swords Dance esque moves come in under that at 20% since they have no drawback whatsoever, and smaller boosts like Calm Mind come in at 10%.

7) How do you ref 'hard' pokémon i.e. Geodude, Magnemite, taking damage from moves? What if a Geodude is hit with a Double Edge? What about a Mud Shot? A Flamethrower? Rock Smash? What effect does this pokémon using Harden of Iron Defense have?

Being hard will slightly reduce incoming damage from physical attacks, but not by much since a lot of the damage is, as previously stated, coming from the energy. However, typeless purely physical attacks are going to basically be resisted against the hard bodies of said 'mon. Harden and Iron Defense are treated as specific boosts and kept out of how hardness actually works because it really doesn't need to be any more unnecessarily complicated than that.

8 ) Are there any aspects of the usual rules or LO announcements that you ignore/defy? For example, do you ref Steel types resisting Normal type attacks? Please answer honestly, there will be no penalty imposed and it'll alert us to things we need to look at.

I'm sure there's probably something minuscule that nobody really cares about but I can't really think of anything at the moment.

9) What is the one other thing you would like to tell us regarding unwritten rules?

You forgot to bring up things such as how people treat moves used differently than normal. eg widespread attacks, etc.

Ta-da.
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Old 07-05-2013, 11:30 AM   #11
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1) How much health and energy do you ref pokémon as having? For example, do they have four Hyper Beams' worth of health and six of energy?

Currently, 4 HB of health and 6 of energy. Have long considered swapping to 6/9, but that's hard to implement given my current reffing status.

2) How much 'off type energy' do you ref pokémon as having? Tell us about everything, including Normal types, 'familiar' pokémon, pokémon naturally considred a bit better with a type like Water pokémon and Ice moves. So, how much Ice energy does a Staryu have? How much Bug energy does a Pikachu have? etc

Standard is 1 HB, but I've been meaning to review that. There are of course modifiers - Pure Normal-types get either a Fire Blast or enough for their strongest move; Exploud gets an Overheat, for example. Pure Water-types get two Blizzard's worth of Ice energy, part-Waters get two Ice Beams. Ice-types get two Blizzard's worth of Water energy. Rock and Ground are the same, with pures getting two Blizzards and part-typed getting two Ice Beams worth. Other changes are on a species basis. Volbeat gets two Thunders, Electivire two Focus Blasts, Toxicroak three Dark Pulses, etc.

3) How do you ref type effectiveness? How much damage will a Vulpix take from Stone Edge? What about a Charizard?

Currently on 1.5/2 for Super-effectiveness, but were I to upgrade to a 6/9 HB system, I'd likely bump up to 2/3x.

4) How do you ref pokémon with advantages such as evolution bonus, level up bonus, legend bonus? Do they have stronger attacks, stronger defences? More health? More skill? more off-type energy?

I tend to grant a 0.1 offensive and defensive boost for every evolutionary or level advantage, and while this works in general, it needs a cap. Not had to ref a Legend yet, but would probably give one a 1.2x bonus.

5) How do you ref significant differences in pokémon dimensions or anatomy, such as weight differences, oversized claws or four legs? Do these pokémon deal more damage with some attacks? Does weight increase the damage of some attacks? - which?

Claws and things tend to be mentioned in the SC. If there's a considerable weight difference then Body Slam does more damage, but that's pretty much it outside of moves that are strictly weight-dependent as Shadow listed.

6) How do you ref boosting moves? How much do Swords Dance, Curse and Bulk Up boost stats? Do you ref pokémon as using more energy if boosted? How long do boosts last and do they fade gradually or just vanish? Are they permanent?

Swords Dance grants a 1.2x boost. Bulk Up a 1.1x boost. Curse is somewhere in the middle. Energy increases proportionally, but type energy used remains the same since the boost amplifies it. They fade gradually, and only things like Shell Smash and Rock Polish are permanent.

7) How do you ref 'hard' pokémon i.e. Geodude, Magnemite, taking damage from moves? What if a Geodude is hit with a Double Edge? What about a Mud Shot? A Flamethrower? Rock Smash? What effect does this pokémon using Harden of Iron Defense have?

Hard Pokémon tend to be Rock or Steel-type, so resist Normal moves. To some extent they resist solid projectiles like Mud Shot or Water Gun, but if they're weak to the move it won't do them much good. Rock Smash and Brick Break get a 1.25x multiplier against hard Pokémon, and circumvent Harden or Iron Defence.

8 ) Are there any aspects of the usual rules or LO announcements that you ignore/defy? For example, do you ref Steel types resisting Normal type attacks? Please answer honestly, there will be no penalty imposed and it'll alert us to things we need to look at.

Rain destroyng Double Team is silly, but that's about it. Was against Steel resisting Normal energy for a while but have since come to terms with it. Nothing else comes to mind.

9) What is the one other thing you would like to tell us regarding unwritten rules?

Write them down.

Oh wait, that's my job now. Whoops.
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Old 07-05-2013, 05:26 PM   #12
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1) How much health and energy do you ref pokémon as having? For example, do they have four Hyper Beams' worth of health and six of energy?

4/6 HB Health-Energy

2) How much 'off type energy' do you ref pokémon as having? Tell us about everything, including Normal types, 'familiar' pokémon, pokémon naturally considred a bit better with a type like Water pokémon and Ice moves. So, how much Ice energy does a Staryu have? How much Bug energy does a Pikachu have? etc

Typically I give regular Pokes 1.5 Fire Blasts, or two flamethrowers. 18 or so Minors

Normal types get a bit below a HB, slightly above a Major amount, along the lines of Thunder + Thunder Wave

Familiarity is somewhere between 1.5 and 2 HB, Ranging from 2 Fire Blasts to 3 Flamethrowers depending on the situation.

Waters get 1.5 HB of Ice, etc.

3) How do you ref type effectiveness? How much damage will a Vulpix take from Stone Edge? What about a Charizard?

x2/x3

4) How do you ref pokémon with advantages such as evolution bonus, level up bonus, legend bonus? Do they have stronger attacks, stronger defences? More health? More skill? more off-type energy?

I usually don't consider these, though I will often slightly bias attack order/speed in favor of those of higher level/evolution.

5) How do you ref significant differences in pokémon dimensions or anatomy, such as weight differences, oversized claws or four legs? Do these pokémon deal more damage with some attacks? Does weight increase the damage of some attacks? - which?

Moves that are clearly suited to a certain anatomy will recieve a 2-3 minor bonus. Larger mons will do more damage to smaller ones with physical attacks. Weight differences are taken into account for moves where it could concievably be related. (Body Slam, Tackle, Stomp, etc.). Those moves get extra damage depending on how large the gap is, with more damage for wider gaps.

6) How do you ref boosting moves? How much do Swords Dance, Curse and Bulk Up boost stats? Do you ref pokémon as using more energy if boosted? How long do boosts last and do they fade gradually or just vanish? Are they permanent?

Double boosts in game receive 1.2x, single boosts in game get 1.1x. They will use energy proportional to the strength of the attack i.e. a significant damage/energy attack that is boosted to major damage will take major energy.

Boosts fade over the course of multiple rounds, being at full strength for the first couple rounds then dropping off quickly.

7) How do you ref 'hard' pokémon i.e. Geodude, Magnemite, taking damage from moves? What if a Geodude is hit with a Double Edge? What about a Mud Shot? A Flamethrower? Rock Smash? What effect does this pokémon using Harden of Iron Defense have?

Harder pokemon recieve defensive buffs similar to the use of harden (a .9x multiplier) This only applies to XX or Normal typed physical moves typically.

Rock Smash of course does more, usually a 2-3 Minor boost, more if harden or iron defense is used.

8 ) Are there any aspects of the usual rules or LO announcements that you ignore/defy? For example, do you ref Steel types resisting Normal type attacks? Please answer honestly, there will be no penalty imposed and it'll alert us to things we need to look at.

Steel types resist physical normal moves, but not energy/sound based ones.

9) What is the one other thing you would like to tell us regarding unwritten rules?

Standardise them and write them, or make it mandatory that refs specify what they use at the start of the match.
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Old 07-05-2013, 05:44 PM   #13
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Answer from a guy who's never reffed in his life! Yay!
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1) How much health and energy do you ref pokémon as having? For example, do they have four Hyper Beams' worth of health and six of energy?

Four Hyper Beams of health, and 6 Hyper Beams of energy.

2) How much 'off type energy' do you ref pokémon as having? Tell us about everything, including Normal types, 'familiar' pokémon, pokémon naturally considred a bit better with a type like Water pokémon and Ice moves. So, how much Ice energy does a Staryu have? How much Bug energy does a Pikachu have? etc

Er..not sure, but I thinking I'm going to go with-1 Hyper Beam for unrelated energy (Less for normal types, maybe a little over a Thunder), and 1 Hyper Beam+Thunderbolt for related types. Familiar types get 2 Hyper Beams.

Related types: Water to ice
Ice to water
Rock to ground
Ground to water

Staryus get a Hyper Beam + Thunderbolt of ice and Pikachu has 1 Hyper Beam of Bug energy.

3) How do you ref type effectiveness? How much damage will a Vulpix take from Stone Edge? What about a Charizard?

2x/3x
Vulpix would take 2x, and a charizard would take 3x.

4) How do you ref pokémon with advantages such as evolution bonus, level up bonus, legend bonus? Do they have stronger attacks, stronger defences? More health? More skill? more off-type energy?

Level ups and legends get slightly more health+energy (Maybe a considerable boost for both?), slight increase to attacks, and are "smarter". Evolutions get a good enough advanteges as is, so a watered down version of the Level Up boosts.

5) How do you ref significant differences in pokémon dimensions or anatomy, such as weight differences, oversized claws or four legs? Do these pokémon deal more damage with some attacks? Does weight increase the damage of some attacks? - which?

Stuff with bigger claws or stuff get a 1.1x boost to such moves, and heavier pokemon get either a 1.1x or 1.15x boost to moves using their weight, such as tackle.

6) How do you ref boosting moves? How much do Swords Dance, Curse and Bulk Up boost stats? Do you ref pokémon as using more energy if boosted? How long do boosts last and do they fade gradually or just vanish? Are they permanent?

1.1x for basic boosting moves (like special attack boost of Calm mind), 1.15x for Bulk Up, 1.2x for swords dance, 1.3x for curse, and 1.4x for Belly Drum.

7) How do you ref 'hard' pokémon i.e. Geodude, Magnemite, taking damage from moves? What if a Geodude is hit with a Double Edge? What about a Mud Shot? A Flamethrower? Rock Smash? What effect does this pokémon using Harden of Iron Defense have?

0.9% damage to physical attacks. Mud Shot and Flamethrower would be normal damage. Rock Smash does...considerable damage to a hard pokemon and will deal decent or moderate damage to a soft pokemon, like Jellicent. Harden will cause the pokemon to take 0.8x damage to physical attacks, Iron defense 0.7%, and of course, taking more damage to rock smash. I consider Stone Edge a ranged physical move.

8 ) Are there any aspects of the usual rules or LO announcements that you ignore/defy? For example, do you ref Steel types resisting Normal type attacks? Please answer honestly, there will be no penalty imposed and it'll alert us to things we need to look at.

I don't ref (yet) but if I did, I would probably follow most rules. :p

9) What is the one other thing you would like to tell us regarding unwritten rules?

As with other people, write them down. I think this would be beneficial to the newbies who would have no idea of these rules otherwise. (Like me! )
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Old 07-06-2013, 11:14 AM   #14
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1) How much health and energy do you ref pokémon as having? For example, do they have four Hyper Beams' worth of health and six of energy?
4/6, but I think 6/9 would work better I've just not had the chance to test it out.

2) How much 'off type energy' do you ref pokémon as having? Tell us about everything, including Normal types, 'familiar' pokémon, pokémon naturally considred a bit better with a type like Water pokémon and Ice moves. So, how much Ice energy does a Staryu have? How much Bug energy does a Pikachu have? etc
Enough to use their strongest move of the type once. A bit more lenient if they've loads (5+) of offensive attacks of a particular type or if their off type movepool in general is truly terribad (Vileplume levels). Under 6/9 I'd probably roughly standardise to a hyper beam.

3) How do you ref type effectiveness? How much damage will a Vulpix take from Stone Edge? What about a Charizard?
2/3 currently. 2 we should strive to keep, more flexible on 4 because it is a bit crippling with the breadth of movepools we have.

4) How do you ref pokémon with advantages such as evolution bonus, level up bonus, legend bonus? Do they have stronger attacks, stronger defences? More health? More skill? more off-type energy?
Slight all round stat boost (v.small, I have no exact numbers on it but we're talking like 5% max). More resistant to being interrupted etc. Basically because I have a very play it by ear, no maths nearly no RNG style of reffing, uplevels/evo bonus is a point in their favour whenever I've trying to decide how a particular set of orders resolves/whether something's KO'd or not/what have you.

5) How do you ref significant differences in pokémon dimensions or anatomy, such as weight differences, oversized claws or four legs? Do these pokémon deal more damage with some attacks? Does weight increase the damage of some attacks? - which?
Similarly to above, unique and significant differences are a point in their favour when I work out how things are going down in cases where the difference would effect it (four legs vs two in speed, claws in attack power, thick shell in defensive stuff etc). Weight increases attacks the pokemon is putting their weight behind - skilled punches from a decent position, body slams, etc.

6) How do you ref boosting moves? How much do Swords Dance, Curse and Bulk Up boost stats? Do you ref pokémon as using more energy if boosted? How long do boosts last and do they fade gradually or just vanish? Are they permanent?
Boosts fade a bit but sharply drop off just before they go (about five rounds in). SD style things are about 25% (although I don't actually keep or do numbers, it's like "this move says significant but he has an SD so I'll treat it as if it says high). Curse is a bit more in both departments because it comes with such an enormous speed drop (which can be basically crippling unless you play it right).

7) How do you ref 'hard' pokémon i.e. Geodude, Magnemite, taking damage from moves? What if a Geodude is hit with a Double Edge? What about a Mud Shot? A Flamethrower? Rock Smash? What effect does this pokémon using Harden of Iron Defense have?
See question 5.

8 ) Are there any aspects of the usual rules or LO announcements that you ignore/defy? For example, do you ref Steel types resisting Normal type attacks? Please answer honestly, there will be no penalty imposed and it'll alert us to things we need to look at.
Nothing comes to mind immediately.
Basically when I ref, I think out the various outcomes and the various factors effecting them, weigh up the reasons for and against stuff happening and make a judgement call. This goes for anything from "is that going to break that thing?" to "is this 'mon KO'd yet?". I abuse the hell out of refs discretion, it accounts for nearly everything that happens in my reffings.

NOTE TO NEW REFS: Attempting to ref like I do is an almost surefire way to screw up the ref test. By all means think carefully about what happens, what effects what and why - it'll make you a much better ref - but until you get more experienced at reffing, sticking close to the old standards is a good way to ensure you won't go too far wrong. I merely ref like this because the standards (whilst good enough to stop stuff going too far wrong) are often overly simple and not perfect and I'm arrogant enough to think I can do better case by case.
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Old 07-06-2013, 02:07 PM   #15
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1) How much health and energy do you ref pokémon as having? For example, do they have four Hyper Beams' worth of health and six of energy?
Currently on 4/6. I do like the sound of 6/8 or 6/9 with the power creep that's going on.

2) How much 'off type energy' do you ref pokémon as having? Tell us about everything, including Normal types, 'familiar' pokémon, pokémon naturally considred a bit better with a type like Water pokémon and Ice moves. So, how much Ice energy does a Staryu have? How much Bug energy does a Pikachu have? etc
In general, most 'mon have an HB of off-type. Normals get a Blizzard's worth. Natural familiarity (Water with Ice, Ground with Rock, etc.) gets two Blizzards. Familiarity through a sig gets 1.5 Blizzards. If a Pokemon has just an obscene amount of off-type moves of a particular type (Electivire with Fighting attacks) it gets 1.25 Blizzards (though I only started doing this recently).

3) How do you ref type effectiveness? How much damage will a Vulpix take from Stone Edge? What about a Charizard?
I'm caught between 1.5/2 and 2/3. I'll do one match one way and another the other. Lean more on the latter option though.

4) How do you ref pokémon with advantages such as evolution bonus, level up bonus, legend bonus? Do they have stronger attacks, stronger defences? More health? More skill? more off-type energy?
2 clicks up on dealing damage and 2 clicks down on taking damage for evo. 1 click up on dealing and 1 click down on taking for level up. Never reffed one before but Legends would get 2 up and down. They're also a bit speedier.

5) How do you ref significant differences in pokémon dimensions or anatomy, such as weight differences, oversized claws or four legs? Do these pokémon deal more damage with some attacks? Does weight increase the damage of some attacks? - which?
The only thing I take into account is weight/size difference as it applies. For example, a Steelix Heavy Slamming a Spinarak will do a few clicks more than the "heavy" damage listed in the description. Otherwise, attacks that involve tackling and ramming gain a bit of a boost if the weight difference is large enough.

6) How do you ref boosting moves? How much do Swords Dance, Curse and Bulk Up boost stats? Do you ref pokémon as using more energy if boosted? How long do boosts last and do they fade gradually or just vanish? Are they permanent?
SD is 1.25x, Curse is 1.33x and Bulk Up is 1.1x. I ref boosts having full effect for two rounds, half effect on the third, 1/4 on the fourth and gone by the fifth.

7) How do you ref 'hard' pokémon i.e. Geodude, Magnemite, taking damage from moves? What if a Geodude is hit with a Double Edge? What about a Mud Shot? A Flamethrower? Rock Smash? What effect does this pokémon using Harden of Iron Defense have?
To be honest, I rarely ever accounted for it. I'm a bad ref. Harden and Iron Defense are just boosts. That's about it.

8 ) Are there any aspects of the usual rules or LO announcements that you ignore/defy? For example, do you ref Steel types resisting Normal type attacks? Please answer honestly, there will be no penalty imposed and it'll alert us to things we need to look at.
I've always had Normal attacks do full damage or a click less than full on Steels. More often, Steels like Magnemite will get the click less while things like Lucario don't.

9) What is the one other thing you would like to tell us regarding unwritten rules?
A semi-decent write up of what affects idle dodge chances (not trying to quantify it or anything because that's stupid). When I first started reffing I heard all this stuff about "idle dodge" but had no clue how to go about reffing it because I couldn't figure out what all to factor in. Like, just a general list of factors would be nice.
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Old 07-07-2013, 12:04 PM   #16
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Haven't reffed in a while, and I don't plan to restart any time soon frankly, but here we go:

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1) How much health and energy do you ref pokémon as having? For example, do they have four Hyper Beams' worth of health and six of energy?

4/6.

2) How much 'off type energy' do you ref pokémon as having? Tell us about everything, including Normal types, 'familiar' pokémon, pokémon naturally considred a bit better with a type like Water pokémon and Ice moves. So, how much Ice energy does a Staryu have? How much Bug energy does a Pikachu have? etc

1 HB by default; 0.8 HBs for Normal (bumped up to 1 use of the strongest move available to them if that move costs more than "0.8 HBs").

Familiarity (e.g. Ice reserves of a Water or sig familiarity) means around 1.5 HBs, though in practice probably 1.6.

Bug energy for a Pikachu? You're having a laugh, surely? Default of 1 HB.


3) How do you ref type effectiveness? How much damage will a Vulpix take from Stone Edge? What about a Charizard?

.33/.5 and 2/3. The only correct way to ref type effectiveness. Not like anyone ever uses a 4x resisted attack.

4) How do you ref pokémon with advantages such as evolution bonus, level up bonus, legend bonus? Do they have stronger attacks, stronger defences? More health? More skill? more off-type energy?

10% more damage dealt, 10% damage resistance for each level/stage. Buffing anything else seems unbalanced IMO.

5) How do you ref significant differences in pokémon dimensions or anatomy, such as weight differences, oversized claws or four legs? Do these pokémon deal more damage with some attacks? Does weight increase the damage of some attacks? - which?

I try to avoid as many bodily-related changes as I can excuse, but:

Large size differences will result in greater damage.

Noticeably underdeveloped limbs/other parts used for an attack will usually see a damage reduction. Well developed limbs may see slight increases, but not to the same degree.

There may be others, but these are the ones that sprung to mind.


6) How do you ref boosting moves? How much do Swords Dance, Curse and Bulk Up boost stats? Do you ref pokémon as using more energy if boosted? How long do boosts last and do they fade gradually or just vanish? Are they permanent?

SD and others of the same level: 1.2x (though I preferred 1.5x, for the record)

Bulk Up and its ilk: 1.1x

Curse: Somewhere in between (this is why I preferred 1.5x)

Energy use gets the same multiplier (but off-type energy used is unchanged), and boosts fade at a constant rate, going completely after about 5 rounds.


7) How do you ref 'hard' pokémon i.e. Geodude, Magnemite, taking damage from moves? What if a Geodude is hit with a Double Edge? What about a Mud Shot? A Flamethrower? Rock Smash? What effect does this pokémon using Harden of Iron Defense have?

I genuinely don't remember the last time I reffed a hard 'mon, so probably completely ignored it. In retrospect, I'd probably go with this:

Energy-based moves are entirely unaffected.

Rock Smash gets a boost, depending on each individual case, and Double Edge would get a slight reduction and recoil increase.

Physical attacks (both hand-to-hand combat and physical projectiles) get a slight reduction.

Harden and Iron Defense (ugh) are slightly less effective.


8 ) Are there any aspects of the usual rules or LO announcements that you ignore/defy? For example, do you ref Steel types resisting Normal type attacks? Please answer honestly, there will be no penalty imposed and it'll alert us to things we need to look at.

Until I come across a good reason for Steels to not resist Normal energy, I'll continue to pretend that rule doesn't exist. Sound is a different story; pure sound moves are fine in my book. I forget my former stance on Rain vs. DT, but I'd currently have it "work" but be slightly given away by the water passing through clones.

9) What is the one other thing you would like to tell us regarding unwritten rules?

Write them down. Oh wait that's been done before. But seriously, it's high time we had these noted down (which I assume is definitely going to happen now?); I've been in and out of ASB enough times to know how hard it is to relearn the "standards".
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Old 07-08-2013, 02:02 PM   #17
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1) How much health and energy do you ref pokémon as having? For example, do they have four Hyper Beams' worth of health and six of energy?

4 HB health, 6 HB energy

2) How much 'off type energy' do you ref pokémon as having? Tell us about everything, including Normal types, 'familiar' pokémon, pokémon naturally considred a bit better with a type like Water pokémon and Ice moves. So, how much Ice energy does a Staryu have? How much Bug energy does a Pikachu have? etc

Standard, usually about a Fire Blast to a little over a Hyper Beam for anything not pure Normal, but if they only have a single move of that type, generally a small bit less. Pure Normal types generally get a Fire Blast for most types. unless they have a higher powered move of that type (such as Focus Punch, Overheat, etc).
As for familiarity, it depends on the Pokémon. I have a bit of a system. Most Waters have a pseudo-familiarity with Ice, and Ice-types with Water, which will generally range from 2 Ice Beam's worth to 2 Blizzard's worth, depending on other factors. Gyarados would only get 2 Ice Beams of Ice energy, but Lumineon would get 2 Blizzard's worth. Seismitoad would get significantly less than any of them. Similar trend for Rock and Ground, where most Ground-types get enough for 2 Stone Edges, and Rock-types tend to get two Earthquakes of Ground energy, with less or more depending on the circumstances. Fighting types get just a tad more than other Pokémon of both Rock and Ground, but not enough for two full-powered Stone Edges or Earthquakes (~1.1 HB)

As for other familiarity and pseudo-familiarity, I generally give 1.2 HB (Ice Beam * 2) to 1.8 HB (Hyper Beam + Blizzard), depending on other factors. Octillery gets 2 Flamethrowers and 2 Ice Beams, due to movepool and the line being largely based on a firearm. Volbeat gets 1.4 HB of Electric and Illumise 1.2 HB. Solrock gets about 1.6 HB of Fire energy, and most Psychics will get enough Ghost energy for 2 Shadow Balls. Ariados gets 1.2 HB of Ghost energy, and 1.4 HB of Psychic energy. Golduck gets 1.2 HB of Ice energy, 1.6 HB of Psychic energy, and about 1.4 HB of Fighting energy. Azurill gets 1.6 HB of Water energy and 1.2 HB of Ice energy. Ninetales gets 1.2 HB of both Ghost and Psychic energy. In short, it's different for each Pokémon depending on what moves they get of that type, how many types they have access to, type relation, thematic representation, family line, and other factors.

Staryu would have 1.4 HB Ice energy. and Pikachu would have about 0.8 HB Bug energy.


3) How do you ref type effectiveness? How much damage will a Vulpix take from Stone Edge? What about a Charizard?

I go by a 1.5x/2x scale lately, which would mean Vulpix would take about 0.9 HB from a Stone Edge, depending on other factors. Charizard would take about 1.2 HB of damage, but a bit less if struck in the bulky gut and a bit more if struck in the wings. Other factors such as level, accuracy, size, freshness, etc apply.

4) How do you ref pokémon with advantages such as evolution bonus, level up bonus, legend bonus? Do they have stronger attacks, stronger defences? More health? More skill? more off-type energy?

A bit more damage dealt and a bit less damage taken, generally half a minor to a minor of damage per stage. They also tend to have a bit better stamina and accuracy.

5) How do you ref significant differences in pokémon dimensions or anatomy, such as weight differences, oversized claws or four legs? Do these pokémon deal more damage with some attacks? Does weight increase the damage of some attacks? - which?

Generally, unless the difference in size is significant, no real increase or decrease in damage. A Seedot wouldn't do any extra damage to a Joltik with physical attacks, but a Geodude would. A Pikachu's physical attacks against an Onix would be weaker than, say, a Machoke's. Size and sharpness of claws can increase damage of claw moves, and, for some, punches, but hard bodies and shells can negate that to a degree. Weight can impact certain charging and roll-over moves, like Double-Edge, Body Slam, Stomp, and Steamroller, although they may be easier for a smaller Pokémon to evade, as well.

6) How do you ref boosting moves? How much do Swords Dance, Curse and Bulk Up boost stats? Do you ref pokémon as using more energy if boosted? How long do boosts last and do they fade gradually or just vanish? Are they permanent?

Generally, depending on the move, small energy usage right away, and then 1-2 stages of extra damage for 1-2 stages of extra general energy use. Larger boosts fade more quickly, but both fade in a few rounds. Curse, Hone Claws and other largely physical effects will last a bit longer, as they affect more than just mental state and temporary buffing up. More exertion makes boosts fade quicker.

7) How do you ref 'hard' pokémon i.e. Geodude, Magnemite, taking damage from moves? What if a Geodude is hit with a Double Edge? What about a Mud Shot? A Flamethrower? Rock Smash? What effect does this pokémon using Harden of Iron Defense have?

Harder Pokémon take less damage from most physical attacks, barring attacks that hit harder targets for more damage, like Rock Smash. Harden tends to reduce physical damage by a single stage, except when it comes to Fighting moves and said piercing moves. Iron Defense reduces damage a bit more, with the same exceptions. Both lower Speed a bit, with the latter lowering it a bit more. These tend not to fade, but if the battle lasted long enough, I suppose they would eventually.

8 ) Are there any aspects of the usual rules or LO announcements that you ignore/defy? For example, do you ref Steel types resisting Normal type attacks? Please answer honestly, there will be no penalty imposed and it'll alert us to things we need to look at.

Well, I know I don't have boosting moves use type energy (Calm Mind, Nasty Plot, Bulk Up, etc, use general energy), and boosted moves are boosted in power of their type, but don't use extra type energy. Water/Grounds are immune to electric unless somehow stripped of their slimy coating. The ELemental Punches and Fangs and such do all type damage, other circumstances dependent (such as, a Gasty's would be weaker and ethereal in form, a Fighting-type's might hit Rock/Ice/Steel a bit harder, etc.).

9) What is the one other thing you would like to tell us regarding unwritten rules?

Don't really have much to say there.

Last edited by Slash; 07-10-2013 at 04:00 PM.
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Old 07-08-2013, 02:57 PM   #18
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1) How much health and energy do you ref pokémon as having? For example, do they have four Hyper Beams' worth of health and six of energy?
4 HB/6 HB

2) How much 'off type energy' do you ref pokémon as having? Tell us about everything, including Normal types, 'familiar' pokémon, pokémon naturally considred a bit better with a type like Water pokémon and Ice moves. So, how much Ice energy does a Staryu have? How much Bug energy does a Pikachu have? etc
I generally give all Pokemon an HB of energy of an off-type. I give Normals basically a Blizzard worth of off-types and familiars get 2 Blizzards worth of off-type.

3) How do you ref type effectiveness? How much damage will a Vulpix take from Stone Edge? What about a Charizard?
I've been using a 1.5x/2x scale recently. A Vulpix would take close to an HB of damage from a Stone Edge while a Charizard would take a mild amount more than an HB from the same attack.

4) How do you ref pokémon with advantages such as evolution bonus, level up bonus, legend bonus? Do they have stronger attacks, stronger defences? More health? More skill? more off-type energy?
I give uplevels 10% more health and energy, and a 10% boost to attacks. I give evolution bonuses a 10% to attacks as well.

5) How do you ref significant differences in pokémon dimensions or anatomy, such as weight differences, oversized claws or four legs? Do these pokémon deal more damage with some attacks? Does weight increase the damage of some attacks? - which?
I usually go by whatever the Attack Descriptions and SCs say regarding boosts due to certain anatomy. If a move like Body Slam is used by a Snorlax, it's going to hurt a hell of a lot more than it is if it's used by a Rattata.

6) How do you ref boosting moves? How much do Swords Dance, Curse and Bulk Up boost stats? Do you ref pokémon as using more energy if boosted? How long do boosts last and do they fade gradually or just vanish? Are they permanent?
I ref a Swords Dance increasing an attack by 20%, with Curse and Bulk Up Raising attack by 10% and moves like Focus Energy and Hone Claws raising attack by 10%. I usually ref boosts gradually fading and disappearing after 4-5 rounds.

7) How do you ref 'hard' pokémon i.e. Geodude, Magnemite, taking damage from moves? What if a Geodude is hit with a Double Edge? What about a Mud Shot? A Flamethrower? Rock Smash? What effect does this pokémon using Harden of Iron Defense have?
I ref hard pokemon taking less damage from physical attacks, except Rock Smash, which would do more due to their hardness. Mud Shot and Flamethrower would be treated the same as if it were used on any other Pokemon, after factoring in resistances and stuff. I would ref Harden and Iron Defense as raising their Defense as it normally would, but it would also make them more susceptible to Rock Smash.

8 ) Are there any aspects of the usual rules or LO announcements that you ignore/defy? For example, do you ref Steel types resisting Normal type attacks? Please answer honestly, there will be no penalty imposed and it'll alert us to things we need to look at.
Steels aren't allowed to resist Normal type attacks? I don't think I ever came across that case, but otherwise no, I stick to the rules from the LO announcements.

9) What is the one other thing you would like to tell us regarding unwritten rules?
Make them written? I don't really have anything productive to say to this.
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Old 07-28-2013, 04:18 PM   #19
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I don't really like making hard rules for reffing. 4HB Health, 6HB Energy is fine for a standard, 1.5x/2.5x multipliers. Sometimes I like 1.5x/2.25x...

I have some bias from the old days, so I would not treat a Dragonite like some other fully evolved Pokemon. It would have a significant advantage, I agree for a level playing field at some level, but still.

Off-type energy? 1 HB for non-normals, 1 Blizzard/Major for normals. Would like to adjust sometimes.

Bonuses is a case-by-case basis for me.

Boosting moves...I like a high boost 1st round and diminishing a good amount each round. I'm a fan of boosts though, might make them overpowered.

Don't want to get stuck too much into 1 routine w/o diverting. Too uninspired/boring.
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