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Old 05-07-2016, 03:21 AM   #1451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangeetsuper View Post
Bring the country out of the worst recession in years
*looks out window*

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Originally Posted by Rangeetsuper View Post
skyrocket LGBT rights
Obama didn't really have a hand in this. He didn't toss in his two cents until it was already clear who the victor was in this latest social tug of war.

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even have a small hand in toning down the war of drugs, manage to introduce at least a checkpoint on the way to single-payer healthcare.
Ehhhhh? @ the first one. Second one's obvious and the first real thing you've mentioned that Obama gets full credit for.

Another one would be re-opening relations with Cuba, which is strangely absent from your list.

But those first three, ehh ... those first two, heavens no I wouldn't give him the credit nor say that they are a part of his legacy ...
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Old 05-07-2016, 03:23 AM   #1452
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Also the Iran deal.
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Shouldn’t the Hoff be doing something if he’s still around? I have strict rules about leaving the pool, and I’m sure vanishing the pool out of existence breaks those rules in some way :P
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Old 05-07-2016, 03:46 AM   #1453
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There's only so much a President can do, and he's done pretty well in bringing America out of the recession- wasn't the mostly successful stimulus package one of the first things he did as President? Obviously America's still feeling the affects. Very few countries aren't.

...Obama repealed DADA, prohibited federal discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity. He also has toned down the war of drugs, but not remotely as much as he should have, of course. I have to admit though that I don't know how marijuana would be decriminalized federally, as in, the exact procedure needed.
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Old 05-07-2016, 03:59 AM   #1454
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No I'm a fan of Obama but he hasn't really achieved that much if you look at everything. However I agree that he has achieved many things. He has the problem that he essentially ran on a platform of being black Jesus and obviously that was never going to pan out.
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Old 05-07-2016, 10:05 AM   #1455
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He also had a notable hand in making the education system suck considerably less. I know most of you are out of High School so you probably don't know how huge a deal it is, but No Child Left Behind was a fucking atrocity and Obama has made great strides in giving more freedom back to the states in that area, even working at and achieving bipartisan support in the most partisan congress in the history of America.
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Old 05-07-2016, 11:07 AM   #1456
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How The Media Failed In Covering Donald Trump

NPR takes a surprisingly honest look at how the media contributed to the problem of Donald Trump. Get past the first few paragraphs (where the author feels forced to deny the media is to blame) and you arrive at some pretty considerable guilty verdicts with loads of supporting evidence.

Jeb Bush Won't Vote For Trump: 'I Cannot Support His Candidacy'

NPR reports that Bush, Graham, and a host of other Republican big wigs have publicly announced that they will be voting for neither Trump nor Clinton. Birth of the New Republicans in 3 ... 2 ...
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Old 05-07-2016, 11:37 AM   #1457
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Yes please, more ammo for a Sanders run.
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Old 05-07-2016, 12:29 PM   #1458
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>Get past the first few paragraphs (where the author feels forced to deny the media is to blame)

I think it's actually pretty fair to say that the media didn't create Trump (he was going to be boisterous and overwrought and vulgar pretty much regardless), but the media did most definitely foster his underdog, outsider image by refusing to take him seriously and just kept adding fuel to the fire each time Donald said "the media don't take me seriously and it's because they're all in on it" by plastering that very soundbite all over the news and in the same fell swoop continue to treat him like a joke.

Trump isn't the media's monster per se, but they took up their torches and pitchforks far too late for them to absolve themselves of the blame.
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Old 05-07-2016, 12:56 PM   #1459
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From the Bush article, I think it's interesting to see who's siding with who. Cards are on the table now and there's no taking them back ...

=Pro-Trump=
Rick Perry
Bobby Jindal
Ben Carson
Chris Christie

=Anti-Trump=
Jeb Bush
Lindsay Graham
John McCain
Mitt Romney
George H. W. Bush
George W. Bush
Bruce Rauner
Larry Hogan
Charlie Baker
Ben Sasse

It's just a little bit of interesting insight into the party's inner politics. Who's really friends with who, who's in the outsiders' circle, etc. For example, there's been much to do about Bobby Jindal being "a rising star of the Republican party" over the past eight years, and yet here he goes and throws in his lot with Trump rather than the Republican establishment. Should the spun-off Republicans end up outlasting Donald and the sinking GOP, I doubt there will be a seat for Bobby Jindal at the new world order's table.
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Old 05-08-2016, 03:43 AM   #1460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangeetsuper View Post
There's only so much a President can do, and he's done pretty well in bringing America out of the recession- wasn't the mostly successful stimulus package one of the first things he did as President? Obviously America's still feeling the affects. Very few countries aren't.

...Obama repealed DADA, prohibited federal discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity. He also has toned down the war of drugs, but not remotely as much as he should have, of course. I have to admit though that I don't know how marijuana would be decriminalized federally, as in, the exact procedure needed.
He also made Bush's tax cuts to the rich permanent.
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Quote:
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Shouldn’t the Hoff be doing something if he’s still around? I have strict rules about leaving the pool, and I’m sure vanishing the pool out of existence breaks those rules in some way :P
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Old 05-08-2016, 06:23 AM   #1461
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NPR
Yet we knew far more, and far earlier, about more modest controversies involving the other candidates, such as Bush's financial ties to the Common Core curriculum. Or Rubio's personal finances. Look at those dates: January and June 2015. These stories deserve coverage. But so did Trump's activities, even if they required a form of reporting unfamiliar to the political press corps.
This is a good point. Journalists who write about politics consistently are probably not familiar with the tabloid journalism that most of Trump's history is recorded in. It would be like a football player trying to compete in track and field - they've got the training, skills, but it's a different sport with its own set of rules.
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Old 05-08-2016, 10:48 PM   #1462
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A friend of mine created this poll sorta thing that allows you to vote up to ten times for candidates who aren't currently in the race, essentially to see where people's preferences fall once you ignore everyone who ran this cycle. It's kinda interesting so I figured I might as well share it with y'all lol

You can distribute your votes however you like throughout the list as well, so you can put all ten votes behind one candidate or spread them out between several.
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Old 05-09-2016, 01:11 AM   #1463
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Victini

So, a friend of mine put up one of those memes on Facebook and usually I ignore them, but I decided to respond. I wanted to share with all the people here. And you can tell it's going to be crazy because it was something shared from Make Donald Drumpf Again. And the part above the image was what he said in the post:

(Friend's name) shared Make Donald Drumpf Again's photo.
22 hrs ·
Fascists and Political Correctness has caused this travesty.




My response:
A lot of my friends from around the world are absolutely horrified by the nationalism inherent in the Pledge of Allegiance. Especially from friends in places like Germany, where they've seen historically just how bad rampant nationalism can be when it's indoctrinated into kids and reinforced over and over. Which is exactly what the Pledge is. I stopped doing it in high school for some personal reasons, and nowadays, I'm wholly objected to its very existence. The mention of God just makes things worse, but it's not the underlying problem.

As far as the top picture, there's no comparison. That is a voluntary religious action done by actively religious followers. There's been folks berated, suspended, or worse, for not participating in what is honestly a horrendous display of indoctrination and rampant over-nationalism.

And I want to make a point that, yes, this is nationalism, not patriotism. "Patriotism" nowadays is just a word people use so they don't have to acknowledge that it's nationalism, something tied to a lot of blood and death and war. These kids' first priority, their unconditional devotion, should not be on a flag or a symbol of the entire country. That separates the world into two sides: "us" and "them". If they're not "us", they're "them", and we don't give a fuck about "them". We need to look to the future of the whole human race, look out for humanity. To care about people, not be full of blind nationalism.

But no, instead, from an early, early age, early in the morning most days, when a lot of the kids are still tired and not 100% aware of what they're saying, are unthinkingly repeating an oath to put the flag above all else. Words that at the time they're made to start reciting it, many of the kids don't understand the meaning of half or more of the words in the pledge. Over and over, almost daily, until the words are something they never can forget or part with. This is textbook indoctrination and it is happening in our very schools. And when someone decides to think for themselves and not take part, they're often threatened, pressured, lectured, yelled at, or even punished. Where's the freedom of speech there?

No, pushing the pledge IS fascism. As defined:
an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
synonyms: authoritarianism, totalitarianism, dictatorship, despotism, autocracy;
(in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.

Nationalistic? To a very high degree. Authoritarian? I'm sure you've seen or heard of the punishments doled out to some who opt out of it. As well as pledging your eternal devotion to the authority of a country. Right-Wing? Forced "patriotism", pledge to the country above all things, nowadays a mention of God, a clear lack of mention of caring about the fellow man or an acknowledgement of allies and other countries, we are not a self-made country. Extremism? This is indoctrinating children almost daily at their most impressionable. The Pledge is practically the definition of fascist indoctrination.




Not my most structured or well-written argument, I'll admit. Been not getting much sleep, I'm sick, and still reeling from side effects and home stress. But I wanted to bring it up here, and start a discussion.

Is the Pledge of Allegiance a good thing? A bad thing? A neutral thing? Is it necessary in the current times? Was it ever? Were the multiple rewrites good ideas, such as the stick-it-to-the-commies insertion of God into it? I've made my thoughts abundantly clear on this, but what about y'all's thoughts?
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Old 05-09-2016, 01:28 AM   #1464
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I'm of the opinion that it's pretty silly and didn't need to be created, but I always stood for and recited the pledge even when I had the option not to. I guess when I think about it I don't know if there were any rules in place to do it when I was younger because everyone just did it. And when I got older there were a bunch of kids who didn't stand for the pledge but they never got in trouble for it or anything. I'm sure there were people who silently judged but I never personally saw someone get ostracized for not participating in the Pledge of Allegiance. Man typing out the name makes it seem like some terrible, fascist thing. But I don't think it's that big a deal. Other than the "under God" bit, which can just be omitted if one chooses. I think the Pledge at its best is sort of a symbol of unity, one that states, "all of us from different backgrounds can come together and be Americans." So I guess here's a couple of questions:

1. Should the Pledge of Allegiance be recited in schools every day?

Yes. It's already around and I don't see it doing any harm.

2. Should it be mandatory?

No. A student should be able to fully participate, participate but not say "under God," just stand and remain silent, or remain seated. Whichever they prefer. Thus, there should be no form of punishment for not fully participating.
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Old 05-09-2016, 01:38 AM   #1465
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I stopped daily recital of the pledge when I graduated elementary school. It did not instill any particular nationalism in me because I was a dumb kid.

The United States is already pretty nationalistic and I think the pledge is a symptom, not contributing factor to it. It's hard to be humble when you're the kid with the biggest guns on the block.
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Old 05-09-2016, 03:05 AM   #1466
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The "Under God" part of the pledge is what ticks me off the most. It should be opt-in, not opt-out. But I mean the entire pledge is pretty much Orwellian anyway. I don't know if I agree that it's a symptom and not a cause. Forcing schoolkids to chant that every day of their lives is almost certainly going to instill unhealthy nationalism into them.
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Old 05-09-2016, 03:47 AM   #1467
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I remember when I first heard of the pledge of allegiance that I thought: "You're kidding right, there is no way this can be real. I mean this is what they did in nazi-germany and in North Korea, how can it be possible that the land of the free indoctrinates kids this way."

My opinion hasn't changed much, except I now aknoledge that is is a very real thing. Also Phoopes, good for you that you went to schools where it wasn't a big deal to opt out, but there have been kids suspended and expelled for not participating.
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Quote:
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Shouldn’t the Hoff be doing something if he’s still around? I have strict rules about leaving the pool, and I’m sure vanishing the pool out of existence breaks those rules in some way :P
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Old 05-09-2016, 10:05 AM   #1468
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The "Under God" part of the pledge is what ticks me off the most. It should be opt-in, not opt-out. But I mean the entire pledge is pretty much Orwellian anyway. I don't know if I agree that it's a symptom and not a cause.
It varies from person to person, and I don't see that as a "nationalistic" problem. What it is are people either too dumb to understand metaphors, or too stubborn to not want to believe in metaphors. You see it pretty clearly in religious offshoots too with literal interpretation - the Bible was obviously metaphorical in a lot of places but only in America do you have people who believe god made the world in 7 literal days.

Symbolism is fairly easy for even un-educated people to understand. It's why logos play such a prominent role over names in the current marketing environment. See AT&T logo, realize it's AT&T, even if you're actually looking at this:



But metaphors are a lot tougher. Like Talon's posted Captain America image, people can superficially associate America with the flag and freedom, but very clearly not understand the details and how those details are protected (or restricted by laws).

...

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Forcing schoolkids to chant that every day of their lives is almost certainly going to instill unhealthy nationalism into them.
I disagree with citing this on the pledge because the same kind of flag salute ceremony happens in a lot of settings without the pledge specifically. In 5th grade, I was opted to recite the preamble to the constitution every day vis a vis the pledge. In this context, the preamble was no less nationalistic, despite its original intent of not being so. In MLB games, the Star Spangled Banner is sung before games, and God Bless America during the 7th inning stretch, even for games in Toronto.

In all flag salute cases, there's an underlying message most people miss - the salute is done because you, the saluter, are glad to be here to enjoy whatever is happening after the pledge. The country enables the freedom on the personal sacrifice of those present and not present.

In a military context you buddies may have been killed in action so only a handful of guys survived to do the salute. You're glad you are alive to be there, and who did survive is there with you, and you do it to honor the guys who couldn't make it.

So perhaps the problem is not teaching people, or them not understanding, the underlying message properly. Nationalism can be pretty superficial so I can easily see how getting too involved in the symbolism and memes can easily make someone go extreme.
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Old 05-09-2016, 11:07 AM   #1469
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I mean, before converting to Islam I always cut out the "under god" part and resumed after.

You're hardly forced to say it.
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Old 05-09-2016, 11:13 AM   #1470
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Also Phoopes, good for you that you went to schools where it wasn't a big deal to opt out, but there have been kids suspended and expelled for not participating.
Opinion: that's fucking stupid.

I don't really have anything more to add.
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Old 05-11-2016, 10:22 AM   #1471
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While I am British and so have no serious nationalist ties beyond boisterously announcing the British Empire was our heyday in a joking manner I really do think calling the Pledge of whatever it is a means of indoctrinating children is some hyperbole. Kids are impressionable yes but they will take far more from their parents or other influences than they will from repeating some words they likely do not give a rats arse about on the daily.

Nationalism is by and large super not okay but you can definitely swing too far in the other direction. That's not to say the original image wasn't bullshit though. If both acts are considered to be non mandatory (that's the bit I will admit I take issue with) then neither is in any way offensive nor indoctrinating. People are dumb.
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Old 05-11-2016, 10:58 AM   #1472
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I don't think you're quite getting what it means to be "not mandatory." Being the only guy who doesn't do it in a classroom is not going to do you any favours.
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Old 05-11-2016, 11:13 AM   #1473
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On the one hand, personal experience says Rangeet is wrong.

On the other hand, personal circumstances vary and personal experiences do not necessarily amount to much evidence in this debate.

I think about religious indoctrination, and how just because one child who went to church every Sunday for 20 years grew up to become an atheist does not mean that all such children do, nor that out of the ones who remained Christians there weren't at least some for whom the mandatory childhood visits to church did not indoctrinate them.

But yeah ... personal experience is that the Pledge of Allegiance didn't have much lasting effect on the majority of the kids I grew up with. America's roles in world history, good or bad, have a much greater impact on young Americans' view of our country than any juvenile oath.

And when it gets right down to it, a mandatory pledge of allegiance carried out in grade schools is nothing next to mandatory military service upon entering adulthood. South Korea, Israel, Iran ... these are countries I'd say are a lot more nationalist than America is, whether they have pledges of allegiance too or not. America has a pledge that stops being practiced upon entering middle school, and then that's it. No military draft. No mandatory service. And a huge percentage of the population that is opposed to American involvement in various foreign theaters, be they open armed conflict or not. You want indoctrination? You want nationalism? Make every able-bodied citizen serve in your military for at least two years. It may not work, but I'd think it'd be hugely more effective than making children recite words they don't even understand and can barely pronounce while facing a piece of cloth in the corner of the classroom.
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Old 05-11-2016, 11:23 AM   #1474
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Honestly, what I'm drawing an analogy to is the forced prayer I had to do at school. I knew it was strictly un-optional to actually do the prayer, but I still got plenty of weird looks and short talkings-to from teachers because I didn't pray.
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Old 05-11-2016, 05:37 PM   #1475
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I agree with the statement that is a symptom of American nationalism, of which there is a dangerous amount, versus the cause of it.
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