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Old 01-10-2013, 01:09 PM   #51
Concept
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>Only on the assumption that all Bide users are idiots.

No. Currently, bide is only really powerful if the opponent you're using it against is stupid/makes a mistake. Toning is down to 1x or 1.5x limits it fine. Typeless bide is more powerful than the incoming damage unless the opponent is typespamming (and even then it's at worse an even trade under the now fairly common 1.5x SE). Surely this is obvious, given that's what prompted this discussion is how powerful people have realised it is in the Whirl Cup because of the rules rendering it essentially typeless.

Introduce typeless bide. I will use it every single round going second in all of my matches and I will win the lot.

EDIT the first: Typed vs typeless bide - identical if the opponent uses moves they're neutral too, typed more powerful if the opponent uses moves they're weak to, typeless is more powerful if the opponent uses moves they resist. The latter is much more common, making typeless bide much easier and more effective to spam than typed, and the former is easy to avoid which limits bides usefulness to when the opponent is a twit.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:18 PM   #52
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>Only on the assumption that all Bide users are idiots.

No. Currently, bide is only really powerful if the opponent you're using it against is stupid/makes a mistake. Toning is down to 1x or 1.5x limits it fine. Typeless bide is more powerful than the incoming damage unless the opponent is typespamming (and even then it's at worse an even trade under the now fairly common 1.5x SE)

Introduce typeless bide. I will use it every single round going second in all of my matches and I will win the lot. Surely this is obvious, given that's what prompted this discussion is how powerful people have realised it is in the Whirl Cup because of the rules rendering it essentially typeless.
The Whirl Cup is an invalid comparison because everything is typeless, rendering the situation radically different.

But alright, perhaps you're correct. Assuming you're not a Dragon or Ghost type, you take either neutral or resisted damage from your own type. Therefore, typed Bide cannot harm you much with your own medicine. However, assuming your opponent is using a barrage of moves super effective on themselves, you can biderape them to shit. Simply bringing the measure down to 1.5x will help with this a little, and the energy clause I suggest will help more.

If typeless Bide, it doesn't really matter, because in all situations it will do the same. It's therefore much less exploitable, because you don;t get situations like Muyo one rounding Weebos (not that tat should have been reffed working, but you get the point). However, there is no situation in which it is not useful, as oppose to typed Bide which can be rendered useless if the opponent is vaguely intelligent. Again, energy clauses limit repeated usage.

Personally I prefer the second option. I'd rather have Bide always be a good move but never have the potential to totally rip through someone's health bar tan be a fairly mediocre move unless your opponent is silly.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:32 PM   #53
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If typeless Bide, it doesn't really matter, because in all situations it will do the same. It's therefore much less exploitable, because you don;t get situations like Muyo one rounding Weebos (not that tat should have been reffed working, but you get the point). However, there is no situation in which it is not useful, as oppose to typed Bide which can be rendered useless if the opponent is vaguely intelligent. Again, energy clauses limit repeated usage.
That's precisely my point, though. It will be useful in all situations - in fact, it will be better than anything short of high powered typespam. We'll go from the current situation, where it's used every now and again to punish people being a wally, to a situation where it'll be used nearly every single round in every single match, and I'm not exaggerating there because glancing through a few of my matches I can see that the majority of the time I ordered second, 1.5x typeless bide would've been a better option than what I used and I'm already winning my matches.

EDIT the first: Increase of successive energy use limits this a tiny bit (although given you're only going to go second two or three times before most neutral matchups are over, in practice it won't really have any impact). Typed bide is a hell of a lot less spammable, and serves nicely to make people learn to think when they order first.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:43 PM   #54
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That's precisely my point, though. It will be useful in all situations - in fact, it will be better than anything short of high powered typespam. We'll go from the current situation, where it's used every now and again to punish people being a wally, to a situation where it'll be used nearly every single round in every single match, and I'm not exaggerating there because glancing through a few of my matches I can see that the majority of the time I ordered second, 1.5x typeless bide would've been a better option than what I used and I'm already winning my matches.
If you think it will be that powerful, clearly I need to rethink. But as I say, I would rather it was a good (not very good) move at all times but that it a) was not a potentially crippling move as it is now and b) was set so that each usage of it became more and more costly.

Perhaps you're right to keep it typed, but I think that the objectives should at minimum be the two things I've set out here. We don't want it to be a potential nuclear option, imo.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:47 PM   #55
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If it's typeless then either it's always more damage than the incoming moves (in which case it will be spammed a lot because by using it you win the round unless you're being typespammed) or always less (in which case it's basically useless). Must admit I quite like it occasionally being the "nuclear option" because it teaches people to think when they go first, but I am a hardass who's fond of steep learning curves so.

Honestly I kinda assumed we were okay with it being nothing more than a punishment for not thinking going first (because I can't think of any other thing we can try to make it without it being either overpowered or useless) and the objection was that is was simply too much punishment for one mistake, and I was respeccing it with that in mind.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:08 PM   #56
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Typed Bide irks me as a Ghost user, and I imagine it would irk those who use Dragons. If it restricts the 'mon so much they can only use Normal attacks without using valuable limited type energy or eating a bowl full of typespam, that's a bit of an issue with me, especially given the pool of Normal or XX moves for those two types is not exactly stellar.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:17 PM   #57
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Reed seemed to manage fine ;p

Fair point though.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:39 PM   #58
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Bide was nowhere near as big of a thing back then. The usage of it was few and far between, and has only become an issue recently due to it's excessive overuse. The issue then was Flash. Every couple of years there's a new set of overused moves that weren't a problem in the past. /deadjokeisdead
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:09 PM   #59
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ah, the days of Flash = auto blindness.

Anyway, my opinion of the matter is similar to Concept's, in that people need to learn from their mistakes... actually the last time someone used Bide in one of my matches it failed kind of badly sorry Phoopes you're awesome, but I mean people still used it back in the day where it was a HB or more to break it, with ref's descretion and I'd argue that it was worse back then because of how much damage it dealt when it was used.

It needs to stay typed, because I think that's a better option. A second option could be to eliminate the part where Bide users are immune to statuses, which could make Bide maybe more vulnerable (though it would increase Secret Power and confusion move use).

At the same time, I can't think of a fully effective option other than upping the energy cost, because the only reason it's a problem in Whirl Cup is the lessened HP. If people decide to bump up Health/Energy from 4/6 to 6/9, that could fix all of these complaints though.
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Old 01-11-2013, 03:45 AM   #60
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1.5x the damage for the same 2x amount of energy. Everything else stays the same.

That's probably what I support most. Small changes. :3
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:21 AM   #61
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Bide being typed is not the problem, as Concept says. Shockingly, FW has a point about bumping up health/energy levels, although he's far from the first to suggest that.

Maybe make it 1.5x (typed) damage for ~1.75x energy and make it have an 80% chance of success first use, dropping drastically each successive attempt?
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Old 01-11-2013, 02:55 PM   #62
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I disagree with the chance of failure addition, but I like the damage change
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Old 01-11-2013, 03:56 PM   #63
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No failure. Bide is high-risk enough as it is.
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Old 01-11-2013, 04:14 PM   #64
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Then typed 1.5x for 1.75-2x energy, with a 1.5 HB cap?
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Old 01-11-2013, 04:41 PM   #65
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Raising health/energy levels to compensate for Bide seems just a bit overdramatic. Most matchups tend to last about 3-5 rounds per poke (depending on the amount of typespam), which IMO is a good rate.

Any more and we'll get battles that drag on longer, and suddenly Toxic will be the next move with its own topic.
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Old 01-11-2013, 06:50 PM   #66
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No failure. Bide is high-risk enough as it is.
In what way?
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:10 PM   #67
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In what way?
see Weebos v. Muyo, or a more recent version, me vs. Phoopes.


More or less, if the RNG hates you and the bide doesn't get broken the turn you use it, you get fucked over next turn because you can't do anything until Bide fires.

Tis why having a poke with reflect is cool to return the damage, and it's easy to avoid a bide beam ordering second in most cases if it didn't break the previous turn. It's the same reason people who did that round time limits thing and had people taking 2 turns to finish a FC Focus Punch were bad refs.
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:19 PM   #68
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Well, only if you use Bide on a low amount of damage input/use Bide going first. Because I don't think many refs take that whole 'end of the round' clause seriously, and I don't think anyone is going to RNG whether a Bide breaks.
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Old 01-11-2013, 08:34 PM   #69
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Well, only if you use Bide on a low amount of damage input/use Bide going first. Because I don't think many refs take that whole 'end of the round' clause seriously, and I don't think anyone is going to RNG whether a Bide breaks.
you're right, but sometimes moves miss, or some other issue makes the damage less than what's expected and that prevents a bide from firing. At the same time, If a bide exists past a round, I usually have it releasing midway in the round afterwards, regardless of damage within it, or when the proper damage has been dealt, whichever comes first.
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:21 PM   #70
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see Weebos v. Muyo, or a more recent version, me vs. Phoopes.


More or less, if the RNG hates you and the bide doesn't get broken the turn you use it, you get fucked over next turn because you can't do anything until Bide fires.

Tis why having a poke with reflect is cool to return the damage, and it's easy to avoid a bide beam ordering second in most cases if it didn't break the previous turn. It's the same reason people who did that round time limits thing and had people taking 2 turns to finish a FC Focus Punch were bad refs.
Both of those situations could have been remedied by not ordering Bide going first.

There's no risk when ordering Bide against somebody who (when going first) decides not to do Secret Power x2. Or at least not that I've seen.
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:30 PM   #71
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that's what I'm saying- even ordering bide going second isn't safe because if various factors occur (moves miss, deal less damage bcos of stat boosts/nerfs, etc. Bides could possibly not launch immediately.)
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:37 PM   #72
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Bide is not especially fast against a fresh, idle Pokémon
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Old 01-12-2013, 12:20 AM   #73
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that's what I'm saying- even ordering bide going second isn't safe because if various factors occur (moves miss, deal less damage bcos of stat boosts/nerfs, etc. Bides could possibly not launch immediately.)
Yeah, but all of those apply to every single other, as well as Bide. My point is that there is no higher risk using Bide than any move when going second (and face it, nobody's going to use Bide going first).
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Old 04-01-2013, 09:15 PM   #74
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I have to say that 1.5 not typed is my opinion so if you dragon breath a dragon as a dragon type you don't get 4 dragon breaths back. typed just seems a bit over powered
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Old 04-08-2013, 12:33 PM   #75
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I have to say that 1.5 not typed is my opinion so if you dragon breath a dragon as a dragon type you don't get 4 dragon breaths back. typed just seems a bit over powered
It doesn't work that way- it doesn't take into account any multipliers on the bider. You would take no more damage dragonbreathing a biding dragon type than your would dragonbreathing a biding Pikachu.
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